A Masculist Movement

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

So rereading a couple of a threads got me thinking about this stereotypical concept of what a real man is. The typical image would feature a definite masculine image, complete with bulging muscles and almost complete lack of emotion. The stereotypical image of a man basically dehumanizes him, just as much as the stereotypical image of a sexy woman dehumanizes a woman. But this side is often ignored.

Look at movies like Twilight that turn young men into pieces of meat. If it was woman in their places, there would be outraged people, and accusations that it was sexist. I mean, even the story line itself is sexist. It's all about the way they look, their personalities are shallow stereotypes, it's basically the text version of a Girls Gone Wild video (well not quite that bad, the movies are getting there though).

And yet no one says anything. It's almost like men have been trained to think this way much better than women ever were.

And what's a "real" man? Because I don't see movies about real men, or people who even moderately look like or act anything like the so-called "average" male they represent. Look at your average sex comedy. Everyone focuses on the fact that the women are treated like meat, but no one points out that the men are turned into shallow animals that lack emotion or brains.

It's just a disgrace to me.

What do you guys think?


Oh and 1000th post.

 

[Steve-O]

I can see your point here.. a llot of modren films now days do not show the soo called 'real man' but to be honest, is there a real man in this world. everybody is different in one way or another, films always show men as all fit looking and look like their go to the gym 7 days a week for like three hours. does every person do that, i know i don't and i also know that i defo don't look like an normal man as they call it in the films.

if they don't show a 'real man' in a film it always the comic guys have you see that all the normal men in films are the guy that there just to be laughed at... like but yet the 'normal' men never get the part of the hero or anything.... but i gather that the way films etc work now days sadly

just to add to the subject.. do you notice that people with disabilities never get a main role, you very rarly see them in films, i know i most prob only notice that cuz i'm disable myself but still you never really see an disable person in a film... just saying

finally.. well done on 1000 posts

 

[Lifeboats]

The Twilight thing is a poor example. First off, they aren't actually men. They're only made to look like a man, and be exceptionally good looking because it draws their prey in. That's just the way they are for instinctual purposes. I have read the books and I never got the sense of it being anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be. The character personalities aren't very stereotypical..except for maybe Jacob. He is the muscleman who fixes cars ect. Edward is pretty complex, and I can't remember any incidents that pulled Bella into a stereotype. That is in defense to the books, which I don't entirely enjoy regardless.

The movies on the other hand do put an emphasis on the male cast to be pieces of meat. But it is show-business. That is what makes them money. It's a fantasy. If anyone actually believes that this is what a man is supposed to look like, they're a bit of a loon. I know plenty of women who actually find Robert Pattinson ugly, same with Taylor Lautner. It's all in a matter of opinion. To be frank, most people join the bandwagons because it's popular. It's what everyone else is doing. Although, some people just like what they like with no intention of being the next ass in the herd.

I think the term "real man" is ridiculous. Everyone has their own views on what a man should be. Some women like the rancher grease-monkey type with the bulging muscles, others prefer a more sensitive nurturing type.

But I do agree with you in the idea that the expectations of a man are fucking stupid. Emotions are what make us human. And any man who says he's never cried is either the happiest man on the planet, or an idiot. And at the same time women are being treated like a walking vagina. There's more emphasis on sex than ever before. And with some of the female singers and reality show stars out there, it's no wonder men are brain washed.

Respect is almost non-existent in North America.

 

[Donald Trump]

mhm aha poor men.
The movie example is a poor one. It's men exploiting other men, it's quite hard for it to be sexist when that's the case. Most of the executives at Paramount or MGM or any other movie making company are men.
It's not as one sided as you make it out to be either, Transformers 1 and 2, besides being completely shit, had Megan Fox in the movies simply because 90-99% of the audience wanted to fuck her rigid.

The stereotypical man isn't one with bulging muscles and no emotion. That is Arnie, and he was always a bit of a joke.

just to add to the subject.. do you notice that people with disabilities never get a main role, you very rarly see them in films, i know i most prob only notice that cuz i'm disable myself but still you never really see an disable person in a film... just saying

Do you mean movies with disabled people playing the lead role?
There's plenty, Forest Gump being the best example.
Or do you mean movies in which the lead actor is mentile?
If you mean that then I have no idea why. Why would anyone not want someone who is mentally ill to be their lead actor, the exploitative nature of it, etc etc.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

mhm aha poor men.
The movie example is a poor one. It's men exploiting other men, it's quite hard for it to be sexist when that's the case. Most of the executives at Paramount or MGM or any other movie making company are men.
It's not as one sided as you make it out to be either, Transformers 1 and 2, besides being completely shit, had Megan Fox in the movies simply because 90-99% of the audience wanted to fuck her rigid.

Women exploit women too. The point is that exploitation is taking place. It's like slavery, it wasn't any better when the natives in Africa were doing it to each other then when white people were. The point is that the exploitation is taking place, and also the film is written by a female, directed by a female, and based on a book by a female.

And the book makes the physical allure of the lead character.

Movie studios don't have the direct control that writers and directors have over a film project, so it is rather I like I made it out to be.

 

[Bambi]

bloody hell, more women are objectified than men in films. think of all the women put in a film aimed at men, actiom films that have no real need for a female part, yet theres a woman in there getting her baps out or getting rescued?

everyone exploits everyone and i cant imagine it ever changing

Just like a (Straight) man would rather look at whoever Hal mentioned above, than Anne Widecombe in a film, its the same with men, and i think moreover, its usually what a man (generally speaking) wants to be himself.

And before you say well *I* dont aspire to be this version of 'real man' thats been dremt up, its generally just catering for the majority and what is more likely to rake the cash in. We all like to look at pretty things. No one wants the hero/heroine of a film to be a fat ugly slob

well, ok, some might, but most of us want summat that looks nice when they take their kit off

 

[Big Casino]

Men and woman being exploited for theyre bodies...so shocking and horrible.
Seriously though i couldnt care less. Things like this are only ever problems when people think about them way too much. Films are there for entertainment and its quite nice seeing a hot scantily clad girl strutting about. Im sure most woman feel the same when they see a guy with muscles and abs. Its all just entertainment. Shouldnt be taken so seriously.

 

[Rapture]

I'm going to have to agree with Kels here. Men aren't the only ones who are exploited in movies. Women are too. Look at films like the James Bond films (every pretty girl ends up with James in one way shape or form). Sex sells, lets be honest.

Far too often, from what I've seen, is that movies/books/etc... sell better if they have some degree of exploitation in them otherwise we'd all be sitting around watching cooking shows or reading about birdwatching. ...and I only mention those two examples because they are about as politically correct and monotone in nature as one can get.

I personally agree with whomever it was above me that said Twilight is a poor example of masculinity. Edward was the sensitive type and that was what suckered Bella in. Sensitive types generally aren't the masculine types. ...and Twilight played off of a lot of rather awkward social concepts to help draw its readers in. Bella was far from the standard "it" girl and the only really masculine character in the story line was Emmett/Jacob and the wolves. The rest of the cast in the story were social outcasts in their own ways.

Anyways, this is why I embrace films like Pride and Prejudice, and some of the other older movies. They don't need to bank on the exploitation of women and etc... they rely on a decent plot, a good soundtrack, and etc...to be able to sell their value and worth as a book/movie.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

I'm going to have to agree with Kels here. Men aren't the only ones who are exploited in movies. Women are too. Look at films like the James Bond films (every pretty girl ends up with James in one way shape or form). Sex sells, lets be honest.

Far too often, from what I've seen, is that movies/books/etc... sell better if they have some degree of exploitation in them otherwise we'd all be sitting around watching cooking shows or reading about birdwatching. ...and I only mention those two examples because they are about as politically correct and monotone in nature as one can get.

I personally agree with whomever it was above me that said Twilight is a poor example of masculinity. Edward was the sensitive type and that was what suckered Bella in. Sensitive types generally aren't the masculine types. ...and Twilight played off of a lot of rather awkward social concepts to help draw its readers in. Bella was far from the standard "it" girl and the only really masculine character in the story line was Emmett/Jacob and the wolves. The rest of the cast in the story were social outcasts in their own ways.

Anyways, this is why I embrace films like Pride and Prejudice, and some of the other older movies. They don't need to bank on the exploitation of women and etc... they rely on a decent plot, a good soundtrack, and etc...to be able to sell their value and worth as a book/movie.

The question wasn't ever whether women were being exploited though. That's pretty much a given, with a thousand articles, drama, and big deals made about it over the last 30 years.

Twilight isn't a poor example. Twilight is just a poor story. All the characters are cliches of different sorts, Mary Sues and Gary Stus all around. Edward is just as much a male stereotype as Jacob, with the way he tries to control Bella. The fact that he has some link with his emotions doesn't make the other any less relevant.

I never said this was a pressing problem at all. In fact, most of the things that are discussed in these forums are unimportant to real life. A conversation doesn't have to be about life or death to be engaging.

It's funny that when the exploitation of women is mentioned, quite a few people come out with guns blazing. But when men complain about the same thing, it suddenly becomes a suck it up and be a "man" sort of discussion, even from other men.

Obviously the world is centered around exploitation, you don't have to intend or even think you can change something to discuss it.

 

[Bambi]

But if we're all in agreement, whats to discuss?

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

But if we're all in agreement, whats to discuss?

We aren't all in agreement though.

I disagree that it's not at least partly an issue. I read articles and things all the time about women being turned into meat and such. No one thinks about the other part. Look at previews for shows like 90210 selling the show with shirtless wet men and such.

I honestly think that every hardcore feminist should realize that men are treated just the same. By other men.

And women.

Kelly Clarkson's new album has a song called Don't Be A Girl About It, Katy Perry's Ur So Gay, it's became okay to attack men the way men attacked women for years. If I wrote a song called Don't Be A Butch About It, I guarantee that there would be a huge deal about it.

Or Ur Such A Lesbo.

 

[Bambi]

Ah well, maybe men are just finally realising the shit what us women have had to put up with for yonks, and now you dont like it when the boots on the other foot. Ha, I say! HA!

edit* what i meant was we all agree that both sexes one way or the other are getting expolited. So I fail to see really whats debatable about it. If it sells, people will continue to cater for the masses. yeah sometimes its questionable cliched and all that other bollocks, but whats your point really other than stating that its happening?

 

[Harlequin]

Well... to be honest people in the entertainment industry will always be exploited in accordance with what the audience wants. Muscles and abs are great for women and all but most I find respond more to a male's social stature than his looks whereas males will more often that not respond to a lady's sexuality before anything else, which is probably why we hear of women being exploited in the media much more often that we hear of men. There's also the influence media has on society and how the portrayal of females can lead to their objectification in society. In comparison males don't really suffer that specific objectification because, as above, that's not really what women look for in a male.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Well... to be honest people in the entertainment industry will always be exploited in accordance with what the audience wants. Muscles and abs are great for women and all but most I find respond more to a male's social stature than his looks whereas males will more often that not respond to a lady's sexuality before anything else, which is probably why we hear of women being exploited in the media much more often that we hear of men. There's also the influence media has on society and how the portrayal of females can lead to their objectification in society. In comparison males don't really suffer that specific objectification because, as above, that's not really what women look for in a male.

Well I would say that you were right, but more and more women are becoming more expressive of their sexuality (which is a great thing of course) but it's at the price of the sensitivity for the other sex. Of course, it's probably all part of the war of sexes. To be controlled, it would seem that you must first been seen as an object, so now we are all being sold a perception of humans on both sides of the fence.

It's just that, when women were exploited like this, it was a giant deal, but when men are, it's not all. I find it funny.

Also I would say as a gay male (yes, I'm going down a dangerous path) that we have sadly bought into this perception on a higher level. We probably have more pressure on us to achieve this concept of "hot" than straight men because for some reason it's become accepted as a sort of social norm among the gay community.

Luckily I got lucky, and have an amazing boyfriend who's really hot, but still has a giant brain.

 

[Rapture]

The question wasn't ever whether women were being exploited though. That's pretty much a given, with a thousand articles, drama, and big deals made about it over the last 30 years.

Twilight isn't a poor example. Twilight is just a poor story. All the characters are cliches of different sorts, Mary Sues and Gary Stus all around. Edward is just as much a male stereotype as Jacob, with the way he tries to control Bella. The fact that he has some link with his emotions doesn't make the other any less relevant.

I never said this was a pressing problem at all. In fact, most of the things that are discussed in these forums are unimportant to real life. A conversation doesn't have to be about life or death to be engaging.

It's funny that when the exploitation of women is mentioned, quite a few people come out with guns blazing. But when men complain about the same thing, it suddenly becomes a suck it up and be a "man" sort of discussion, even from other men.

Obviously the world is centered around exploitation, you don't have to intend or even think you can change something to discuss it.

Ohhhh kay then

What I guess you are looking for in this thread is how people agree that men are really being exploited now in films/movies and etc... ?

I can't really say I agree with you too much there then. While I see men flashing their abs or having the rare underwear shot...I can't say I see that more often then women in barely there swimsuits, women in lingerie, breast flashes/shots, and being shot in risque skimpy clothes. I think women can easily be seen as objects in films...more so then men. If you don't agree with that then lets agree to disagree.

 

[Dionysos]

I agree with disliking movies that decide it best to put what is considered random good looking actors in a film, sacrificing talent and people who would be right for the role. This goes for both sexes.

However, as a result I do try to avoid these movies when I know that this has happened.

I've personally never (consciously) subscribed to the idea of watching a movie to look at and check out male characters. If that is a man thing too, then I didn't ever get the memo. Though I can understand that a lot of people do look for who is 'hot' at the moment and try and replicate particular looks and styles themselves... That's possibly why a lot of people walking about today look very similar as a result. I sometimes find it very scary walking through a street, getting on a bus or a train, and looking about at people. Most people are very familiar (in looks, but sometimes also extending to their mannerisms), yet I do not know them, nor have I ever met them before. I've never consciously modelled myself on anyone myself as I've never associated myself with those types of characters, but tend to prefer the quirky ones.

I agree with Hal in that the types of male actors that are placed in movies for sexual exploitation are generally not those of the strongman archetype. Arnie is a joke, and a very good joke at that (“Get to tha choppa!” and other such lines are fantastic). He’s not always the best of actors, but he has never needed to be to be entertaining. In a similar way we have the hunk actors like David Hasselhoff, those actors who have chest hair that puts bears to shame. He’s so badass in his masculinity that the Germans adore him, and a lot of people love him, yet do not take him seriously either. Compare him to Chuck Norris, also. A lot of the actors who play Bond are very similar to this too (with varying talent – and some taken more seriously than others).

So we do have exaggerated ‘men-men’ in movies, but often they are jokes. The males who annoy me more are the ones that look too normal (but unrepresentatively attractive and well-toned nonetheless - so not average, but normalish, if that makes sense), but end up lacking character. The actors might be good looking, but when that seems to be all that they are then the movie doesn’t seem to have as much to it. I dislike it when it becomes apparent that someone has decided somewhere that there are only about 10 appearances to choose from, and so long as the lead is one of the attractive ones then that is a movie in the bag. Some movies have always been a bit like this, but I guess to me in a retro sense I do not mind seeing some of the older movies now since the 80s (as an example) were so cool and everybody looked different… Or it might just be that better movies were made back then, and that putting random model-men in movies who aren’t even used comically is increasing in modern cinema.

 

[Donald Trump]

Women exploit women too. The point is that exploitation is taking place. It's like slavery, it wasn't any better when the natives in Africa were doing it to each other then when white people were. The point is that the exploitation is taking place, and also the film is written by a female, directed by a female, and based on a book by a female.

And the book makes the physical allure of the lead character.

Movie studios don't have the direct control that writers and directors have over a film project, so it is rather I like I made it out to be.

Ah yeds, it is just like slavery.
The film studios have a lot of control over movies. They control the budget, they chose the directors and approve or refuse screenplays.
And 2 of the 3 directors of the Twilight series have been men.
Exploitation is part of capitalism.

Well I would say that you were right, but more and more women are becoming more expressive of their sexuality (which is a great thing of course) but it's at the price of the sensitivity for the other sex. Of course, it's probably all part of the war of sexes. To be controlled, it would seem that you must first been seen as an object, so now we are all being sold a perception of humans on both sides of the fence.

mhm aha.
It seems you've been reading someone's sociology textbook. Perhaps not particularly carefully.

I think the point you are vaguely trying to make is that men and women are both being equally sexually exploited.
I don't agree because there's still a double standard. Good looking Male actors eg Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp are generally considered to be good actors. Whereas the same isn't true of female actors, or actresses if you prefer.
I also don't think men suffer from that same reductive viewpoint, I don't think that they're only seen as sexual objects, they're still though of as people.

 

[Will Graham]

Like all humans I like to stare at pretty things, not ugly ones like my mother's back hair. People seem to think however, that this something new. That all films nowadays are tossing aside story in favour of tits n' abs. I realise this is just their opinion, which I am sure they realise is wrong.

Some Like it Hot, a classic comedy film was mainly attended originally, because every man in the world would have to be removed from between Marilyn Monroe's legs with industrial farming equipment. If you had to choose between something pretty and something average looking, few wouldn't choose the pretty.

Any film that does have gratuitous semi-nudity was never going to be one with a stellar plot and cast. Comedies and action movies are generally not well-woven narratives which transport you to another world, they're tits and jokes/explosions respectively.

 

[Shu]

I read a few posts, but not all. So if I repeat anything, well that sucks for you.

These days more often times than not there will always be a main male character protagonist, and a main female character protagonist. Both of them are the cream of the crop, hence sometimes the fact that these same actors will be the main characters together in other movies as well.

Let's take movies with Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan, or Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson back in the late eighties and early nineties.. they did so many re-occurring movies with these folks, due to the fact they were considered good actors by the consensus and of course were considered hot. They sold movies basically by appearing in movies. Was terminal really a good movie? In my opinion it was overrated. Everyone just went goo goo gaa gaas over Tom Hank's. He could be 70 and people would still like his mentality.

Though that's nothing new, but today's movies.. well I can tell you they lack a lot period. The screen writers seem pretty uninspired, and I still blame it on the Economy and the writers strike way back when. As a few of you mentioned, throw the eye candy in for the fellas, you throw eye candy in for the girls.. and boom.. it's a soft soft soft core porno. An occasional actress that has never before shown tits, will all the sudden slip and show it. Let's take.. Halie Berry for example in sword fish. No one expected it, but when word got around there was a boobie slip + Hugh Jackman/John Travolta, jesus christ people went to see it purely because of this.

So I believe what you are talking for the most part Cody though are the actors like Hugh Jackman, Josh Lucas, Matthew McConaughey, Jude Law, Ryan Reynolds.. the list goes on, that basically go around without a shirt on for 20% of the movie. It sells to women. Bottom line is women are sometimes even more hard up to seeing good looking men with very little story, then men are to women. Movies these days are more marketed towards women in general. Aside from 300 and crap which didn't even warrant a screening in my opinion because it was so bad aside from the bullet time-esc ways.

Men are more about the explosions, combat, bullet times, one or two pieces of eye candy, but for the most part we are exposed to eye candy day in and day out.. in our daily lifes. I live in a college town, where typically women are hotter here than on the big screen.. though they to me are "eye candy" - but their personalities are lacking as shit. They are sold to the mold.

Men are the same way, they mimic what's on the big screen. Go to the gym, get fit, wear muscle shirts, act like a meat head, ignore ladies so they feel the need to feel attention and call them only when they have made them wait long enough. Get drunk, get with a new girl(s) every night or every week. Talk about women in the most filth of ways in the sack. I'll admit.. we are pigs when it comes to telling all. It's like a tally sheet.

We as men were marketed to women like Jennifer Love Hewitt at an early age, where if we could find that type of girl, we would marry it. We want that shy, flirty, cute/sexy girl next store who will one day take care of us. Otherwise we get with the filthy sluts that are willing to bend while they are drunk.. get the feeling out, and do it all over again the next day till we are either divorced 4 times over or alone with whatever sexual transmitted diseases we happened to come across. Do we see marriage, most of us do yes, but we want a woman to "Take care" of us.. like our mommies did. So in movies they market two types of women.. 1) The extremely hot promiscuis lady 2) The semi attractive motherly lady who all the guys want to settle down with... EVENTUALLY (after they have had their fill and fun).

We as people killed chivalry by marketing our culture towards these movies. But again.. do I want to watch a bunch of people who are less appealing on the screen daily.. I have no idea it would be hard to tell since I'm not exposed to that realness on the big screen daily. I would say I prefer better acting over looks, but then I always prefer a better execution and story line then I do acting. If the story is good.. I'm usually hooked into a movie. If I'm going to a scary movie, it's usually for laughs these days. Let's face it.. Paranormal Activity 3... I mean really? They are the new call of duty's of the movie world.

Err sorry got on a tangent, but let me conclude this by saying.. Sex/Looks sell movies purely these days. Is it wrong? No. Why do I say this? Because we the people are buying the tickets. Are we being forced too? No.. there are such things as Indy films out there that have far better story lines and such, but who wants to watch low budget films with mediocre looking people.. You tell me.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

I think the point you are vaguely trying to make is that men and women are both being equally sexually exploited.
I don't agree because there's still a double standard. Good looking Male actors eg Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp are generally considered to be good actors. Whereas the same isn't true of female actors, or actresses if you prefer.
I also don't think men suffer from that same reductive viewpoint, I don't think that they're only seen as sexual objects, they're still though of as people.

I disagree. Brad Pitt and Johnny Deep are actually good actors, you didn't pick two people whose only appeal is their looks. Let's go back to Twilight, I don't see anyone exclaiming how good either of their acting is despite their good looks. They haven't won awards or been recognized for their talent.

And there are plenty of women actresses who are beautiful and still considering amazing actors. Angelina Jolie for example. Sure actors like Megan Fox aren't instantly consider good actors because they are sexy, but that's fine because she is a horrible actor anyway.

Shallow Hal, Sweet Home Alabama, You've Got Mail, Titanic, 50 First Dates, The Wedding Singer, 500 Days of Summer, Persuasion, Knight & Day, The Holiday, Moulin Rouge, Shakespeare In Love, My Fair Lady, Romeo + Juliet, Gone With the Wind, Sleepless in Seattle, Just Like Heaven, Pearl Harbor, Pride & Prejudice, While You Were Sleeping, A walk to remember, When Harry Met Sally, Never Been Kissed, Memoirs of a Geisha , City of Angels, Mama Mia!

Mama Mia had half an ass shot in the deleted scenes, and that hot ass guy from The Duchess was shirtless for most of the movie Cali. Trust me I watched it enough.

And several of those movies could be said to have been sold off male sex appeal. The boobs in the Titanic aren't an example of female exploitation because they come once for a few seconds in a 2 hour movie. And Leonardo DiCaprio was definitely a bigger sell for that movie than Kate Whatsherface.

In fact only a few of the movies you mentioned didn't have a "sexy" male lead in them. And City of Angels has some shots of Nicholas Cage that are almost nude I think. I remember seeing them on some site a while back. Gay people and the things they like to discuss.

The point is that not every male movie is sold off females. And the latest James Bond showed a lot of muscle shots and such too, so I'd say they're pretty even in their appeal toward both sexes.

What I am saying is that this issue is rarely brought up AT ALL. Yet you can't shake a stick around the internet without reading about female exploitation in the media. I'm not saying either is worse, or even more prevalent, I"m just saying that both exist.