Britain as an Islamic State?

[Harlequin]

Not a hate thread just social observation please don't close. Cheers mods.

Anyway, I was playing football just up the road and got to talking with some muslim guys about Islam in the Western world. They said Britain was no longer a country based on Christian values which I was able to concede, but then went on to suggest that the Islamification of Britain and in time the world was an eventuality.

As much as I feel they’ve gone slightly overboard, it’s difficult to argue against them. Sharia Law is now being implemented in various areas across Britain, as described here, here and here. When coupled with the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the UK (source) it’s difficult not to see where they’re coming from.

For those who would like Sharia Law explained to them, the BBC does an adequate job of it here.

Today UK Prime Minister David Cameron was quoted by the BBC in a speech on radicalisation and terrorism here saying “State multiculturalism has failed”, suggesting Britain needed “a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism” in order to preserve it’s national identity.

But despite these affirmations of a heightened sense of national identity in Britain, it would seem Britain’s transition into a Islamic state is becoming more of a reality when the very idea would have seemed far fetched to even the most open minded Britons. Of course there are always nay sayers, but the social changes have been drastic in Britain. The Britain of today is a far cry of the Britain of the 1950s and with these demographics and social changes it would seem Britain’s and indeed Europe’s transition to Islam is closer than many would expect, who’s to say what changes we’ll see on the continent by the year 2025?

So how do you think this proposed shift will pan out and what are your opinions on it? In light of these demographics I feel the suject, albeit one that the British continue to ignore, is a real talking point. Obviously this isn't an issue that concerns just Britain.

 

[Davey Gaga]

I find it ironic the thread title includes "Islamic state", throwing up the whole separation of church and state debate, which brings me to my only opinion on the subject.

I'm of the view that religion should have no bearing on laws or the way the country is run. Of all the religions I know, Islam seems to be the most intrusive in to the way we're living. In cases where police must enter houses, in any home they can go about their normal business; in a home where Islam is practiced (???) there is an entirely different set of rules based around not causing "offense" - taking off shoes, only being able to enter/arrest on non-prayer time, not entering certain areas etc. I don't like things like that.

It'll never happen. It's going that way but it'll curve off in to a certain number. Too many people will start to oppose things like that.

 

[Big Casino]

I remember reading something ages ago about something very similar.

When i sit and think about it, its a scary thought tbh that the country could end up like that. But nothings happening to change it. The country bends over backwards to accomodate for immigrants, even the ones who hate us dont get deported. For example the wankers on veterans day. The law needs to change. Make it easier to deport people.

What irks me is situations where things are changed incase it offends muslims. Take down christmas decorations, cuz it might offend them. Dont wear your cross, it might offend them. Why is the country so weak? Its horribly pathetic. We have good people here but our laws are just something for people to walk over. A big red carpet for immigrants.
If i had my own way id have people who were not born in this country, who have lived here for less than 16 years sent home. Im well aware that not all muslims and immigrants are terrorists etc and a threat to us but i dont care. To some that may sound racist to which i say. Its not. But thats how i feel personally.

 

[Davey Gaga]

As an added irk to Lewis's post - it offends me that some women cannot speak to me in a store when I'm serving them at work. They're not allowed to look at me, get angry if I skim their hand when I give them change. They can't speak to me and this comes across as rude. It offends me - why is nothing done about that?

etc

 

[Saints&Storms]

I am also of the mind of separation of Church and State. I have to say that's really the most legible way to run a government, but along with raising statistics comes raising wants, if all the Muslims call for/want Sharia Law and should there numbers in said place be far too great, would the people really be able to oppose it?

Even in the U.S. there are some who would like to impose Sharia Law, banning it was banned in Oklahoma if I recall right. Obama even pushed for Sharia in Kenya and he's the U.S. President, sure he alone doesn't have that power but...he could do anything to the U.S. as well.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Just because there now more practicing muslims in the world does not mean we are going to all have to abide by there laws, laws that barbaric are for a lesser time and will/should not be implemented by any nation state not 100% fundamentally islamic.

Of course this is not a racial thread..............its a religious thread.

You poms needs to stand up for your rights, democracy has ways for you to do this using non-violent methods, but if this increased leaning jeopardizes the nations security
by increasing the potential number of terrorist protected under western law: some thing must be done.

Thats all the west needs is a place of sanctuary where extremist can remain safe and we cant touch them because of the "allowances" the government has made, liberalism is fine and dandy but when it eats away at and negates the very fundamentals a country is built on freedom from oppression and the like, and the citizenry lets this happen.

You deserve it. Harsh but true.

 

[Big Casino]

As an added irk to Lewis's post - it offends me that some women cannot speak to me in a store when I'm serving them at work. They're not allowed to look at me, get angry if I skim their hand when I give them change. They can't speak to me and this comes across as rude. It offends me - why is nothing done about that?

etc

Exactly.

Its funny aswell, you get all these anti racism campaigns on the tv and that. Buts its ridiculous ideas and laws like this by the goverment that provoke it. Is it any surprise that people living in their own country are pissed off at immigrants getting treated better than them. But who do you get angry at? The goverment for being utterly ridiculous? Thats probadly the more acceptable and truthfull answer but id be lying if i said it was just them that im pissed with.

Theres a street here which when i was younger was a great little street for shops and arcades. Now when you drive down its all african food stores and cafes you can see. Asian spice sellers and polish hairdressers etc. Makes me sad tbh when i see how much its changed. Half the time on the bus aswell scottish people are numbered by the number of foreign people who live here. All this has happened so rapidly in the last 5 years. In another 20 years its gunna be like a different place.

Slightly off topic i realise but i felt the need to say it.

 

[GalaxyFlare]

How is that off topic?

It has complete relevance, its an natural part of being a country that takes in many people from differing religious nominations and racial values, if you take in people to your country you cant begrudge them the right to want a better life for themselves, I know that not what you are saying mate but its all inter connected.

The broader points of this this thread are based giving to much power to single minority, though in this case that ceases to be the truth quite rapidly, when a group gains enough influence to change the inner workings of a community referendums and debates must be held as to how much and who these new ways of living will effect.

You dont just hand people the right to make law with out oversight, that is just reckless.
Multi-cultural societies like Britain, Australia and The US wont allow there fundamental laws to change. Especially the U.S they dont move for anyone

Britain needs to learn to stick up for its national identity and fast, its a great county but it can and will cease to be if its fundamental values are over taken by barbaric laws of oppression.

Not likely to happen though, natural order of things and all that

 

[Valvalis]

What irks me is situations where things are changed incase it offends muslims. Take down christmas decorations, cuz it might offend them. Dont wear your cross, it might offend them.

Yeah, this sort of thing irritates me too, it happens a lot in the U.S. as well. I'm not sure if it's necessarily to avoid offending Muslims only--it could be a precaution to avoid offending anyone who's here--but I don't think the path to religious tolerance is to completely strip different cultural and religious identities from the public eye.

The only reason they sterilize everything is to try to avoid people getting violent over it--but a better answer would be to let people of all faiths put up whatever decorations they want, and just make them learn to deal with the fact that some people have different views. If someone doesn't like a person's decorations, they don't have to look at them :dave: That's much better than being restricted from expressing yourself.

As far as the government issue, so long as religion and state remained entirely separated, it wouldn't really bother me whether my religion became a minority or not. However, the eternal problem is that politicians are rarely neutral of mind, and so religion still manages to work its way into laws and regulations despite how wrong that is; much of the anti-abortion and anti-gay political discussion in this country seems to bear a good deal of religious influence, for example. So if an Islamic politician took office who tried to manipulate the system so that they could impose their own religious restrictions on all citizens, Muslim or not, then I do think that would be quite unethical.

 

[Kei]

LOL. I kinda laughed at the examples you guys mentioned. o.o There are really Muslim people doing that? xD They really need to re-learn their own religion. Now, I'm not a Muslim, to be quite honest, I was "raised" as a Muslim, I memorized a lot of Qu'ran, memorized a lot of unnecessary things to regarding Islam, I even studied at an Islamic school for a while, so I know a lot about the religion itself. (Is Atheist but not like those stupid people who made Atheism as a religion)

About the Christians holidays and what not, in Islam, in one of the prophet's stories, when Christmas comes, he used to wish the Christians a happy holiday (According to the book), there isn't anything wrong with Muslims wishing you a happy holiday, nor yoru Christmas tree will do them harm, anyone who bitches about that out of Muslim, is just a bigot.

Also, an example Dave mentioned about women don't talk to him sometimes in the store, actually, woman are actually ALLOWED to speak. However, some of the "wife abusers" threaten their women that they will beat them up if she talks, like her talking is some kind of shame, when it clearly says. That women aren't allowed to talk with a loud (shouting etc etc) voice or try to flirt with the man in a tempting tone voice...

Also, even about people from other religions drinking and what not, they are allowed to do what they want, as long as they don't disturb the Muslims A.K.A in closed private places (Bars and homes), really I believe drinking in the street isn't allowed anyway, no?

ANYWAY, back to the topic. I'd agree that religion should be kept out of law and government, I mean take a look at Saudi Arabia, it's a neighboring country to me but I sure as fuck don't want my country to have such rules. I mean cut his hand if he steals? The way the interpret every freaking line in their own religion, taking a penny which you found on the street would cut your hand.

@OP post, those two Muslims seems like they are REALLY into Islam. I doubt you'd see Islam taking over Europe, sure it can take over Middle-East (well it did, since long ago) but that's because it's near where Islam originated not to mention all the languages around there are close to Arabic.

The majority of European socities are Christians, so a lot of opposition would occur, if such laws and rules were to be set on them, and it didn't comply with what they want.

(I know my post is somewhat all random and has no meaning whatsoever)

 

[Davey Gaga]

Also, an example Dave mentioned about women don't talk to him sometimes in the store, actually, woman are actually ALLOWED to speak. However, some of the "wife abusers" threaten their women that they will beat them up if she talks, like her talking is some kind of shame, when it clearly says. That women aren't allowed to talk with a loud (shouting etc etc) voice or try to flirt with the man in a tempting tone voice...

I realise I probably didn't have 100% accuracy in my post before but it wasn't the main concern. Even if they're allowed to, and they just don't - do we really want a state like that?

No, we do not.

...^was the original point.

 

[DarkShadow]

The UK will never become an islamic state......there has been in the past sharp rise in immigrants in the country from mainly muslim countries such as Pakistan,Bangladesh and Somalia. Nowadays it's more Polish people.....but they come in large amounts especially in my area.

But I think it mainly depends the ratio on the muslim growth vs non-muslim growth rate.....The muslim growth rate may be *just*higher but I don't think the population numbers will come close to the non-muslims. However as a means of tackling this they need to tackle immigration levels first. I don't see why they let so many people into this country so easily.....I don't think immigration problems are on the mind of Cameron or Clegg.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

But I think it mainly depends the ratio on the muslim growth vs non-muslim growth rate.....The muslim growth rate may be *just*higher but I don't think the population numbers will come close to the non-muslims. However as a means of tackling this they need to tackle immigration levels first. I don't see why they let so many people into this country so easily.

This can go for the U.S. and many other Western countries as well. Islam has been growing since the day it was established. but there will still be a stronger Christian presence in the West for a good long time. The U.S. for example is predominantly Christian and is reinforced by Catholic immigrants. Latin culture, for example, has become a staple in the American population.

 

[Harlequin]

I think it's a mix of demographics and national identity. Here in Britain I don't feel as if there's enough of a collective idea that defines who we are as Brits and because of that I feel it's easier for foreign cultures to impose themselves onto British culture, seeing as we're much more accomodating than other countries. I think it's much more of a possibility than most would consider, but I don't feel as if we're on the brink of a transition into a theocracy as many muslims I've spoken with would suggest.

 

[alternate]

Under an Islamic state comes Islamic lifestyles and laws. Laws such as being whipped 40 times for drinking(something MANY people do on a daily basis), woman not being able to drive, woman having to cover their bodies, men owning woman as if they were slaves, domestic abuse being legal, girls as young as 6 being mutilated, pedophilia, stonings, woman being stoned to death for being raped unless they have four male witnesses.

Honor killings would rise, and since Sharia law is in play, every male Muslim that killed their daughter/wife/sisters in the name of Islam either because the woman didn't want to wear the burka, didn't want to be mutilated, didn't want to be forced into marriage, or maybe that they wanted to go to school or drive... would be justified in their eyes and these murderers/abusers would get to walk the Earth and do it again as many times as they want all because Sharia law says they can.

where the hell did u get tht from cuz tht's rly bs and not true , i just wanna know who told u so???

sharia isn't bad as u think and doesn't contain all these weird things mentioned above , and sum of these laws r not used anymore bcuz nw is dif. than long ago

 

[CassinoChips]

I haven't been told by anyone, I mean this as respectfully as possible, Sharia is terrible. I can provide evidence but, really, it's just not necessary.

Saying there is only one way Sharia law is interpreted isn't correct. Much like Christianity, there are multiple viewpoints and interpretations, and there are modernist, traditionalist, and fundamentalist ideologies that are derived from Sharia. So it is dangerous and misleading to assume that Sharia law implies solely the interpretation that entails honor killings, FGM, etc.

For example, in secular Muslim states, such as Turkey, Sharia only applies to personal situations. The law and implementation thereof is not based on Sharia. But Sharia still exists, and is a significant aspect of a Turk's daily life. On the other hand, there are those states such as Saudi Arabia that are based on traditional Sharia law. So, again, there are significant differences between the two, and it's unfair to throw a blanket over all of them.

 

[CassinoChips]

TTT, can you please tell me what benefits a Muslim receives when living under Sharia law? Please include benefits for both males and females.

No, because there are too many variations within Sharia to specify. In some versions of Sharia, women become second-class citizens. In some versions of Sharia, there is little difference secularly between a woman living in a Sharia state, and a woman living in a non-Sharia state. What I think you're trying to imply is that any time Sharia law is implemented, women are automatically subjugated, which is simply not true. In some cases, like the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, yes. In other cases, like much of the pro-Western majority of Turkey, it's not.

And as an aside, before the middle of the 20th century, women under Sharia law were actually granted better legal status, more legal protection, and more legal rights than many of their counterparts in the West. So Sharia does not automatically mean subjugation for women.

What is the point of living under these laws in the mind of a Muslim?

That's like asking what's the point of following the Ten Commandments for a Christian. Many Muslims believe it is important to follow a certain interpretation of Sharia. Many do not.

 

[Terra Branford]

No, because there are too many variations within Sharia to specify. In some versions of Sharia, women become second-class citizens. In some versions of Sharia, there is little difference secularly between a woman living in a Sharia state, and a woman living in a non-Sharia state. What I think you're trying to imply is that any time Sharia law is implemented, women are automatically subjugated, which is simply not true. In some cases, like the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, yes. In other cases, like much of the pro-Western majority of Turkey, it's not.

I'm terribly sorry there TTT, but that is entirely incorrect. Shari'ah Law has no "variations" nor does there exist a part of it that supplies any good for a gender other than male or any good for any other religion. What you mean to say is, some countries hold "some" of the bad things out, but that doesn't mean it doesn't slip in and hurt and oppress women. An example of such a situation would be looking at England. A slave-woman was recently smuggled in and the man used her as a house slave promising money to her, but when they arrived, he kept her captive, beat her and didn't give her pay and he got caught, because those worst parts, were kept on a leash.

To simply say so is absurd and incorrect. Turkey's law holds most of the Shari'ah back, that doesn't make it any less "Shari'ah". I could provide examples, but I doubt anyone would want to hear...

"there is little difference secularly between a woman living in a Sharia state, and a woman living in a non-Sharia state."

Again, I'm sorry to state so, but that is also incorrect. The last time I checked, I wasn't being forced to wear a Burqa/clothes of a religion, so there are major differences, specifically freedom...

To say there is "little difference" is spitting in the face of the women suffering under Shari'ah Law everyday. It is mocking them and their pain and oppression and it is very wrong.

And as an aside, before the middle of the 20th century, women under Sharia law were actually granted better legal status, more legal protection, and more legal rights than many of their counterparts in the West. So Sharia does not automatically mean subjugation for women.

Funny one can say that but the actually evidence shows its not true. Women under Shari'ah Law and Islam, can't even drive a car alone and in most places, can't even drive because their hands will show. That's not only it, but they cannot divorce without three to two trustworthy Muslim men to back up their statement (see England for cases about it). A female Muslim must ask her husband for consent to divorce and must pay back the downy that has been paid, but the man may divorce whenever he wants to and the woman has to stay for three months -- regardless of her stay. There's also, following the Qur'ān, the rule of Shari'ah Law that states women cannot marry men unless they convert to Islam but men may marry women of The of Book or anyone else. Doesn't matter for them, but it does for women.

That's just some of the stuff against women. There is also, for both genders but happens more to women, the penalty of adultery, which is stonings. For unmarried women and men, its 100 lashes, according to the Qur'ān, of course....The punishment for stealing is multiplied by how many times you steal. Like amputation of your leg or arm....

You are right about Shari'ah law being different for different Islamic countries, but not in the sense in which you think. For the Ahlus Sunnah Muslim, a man can simply utter the word Talaq to instantly divorce his wife, leaving her nothing. In Shīʻah Muslim, men can use the Triple Talaq and can even do so through text messages, letters, other people...as long as its clear, of course. But that one is barely allowed under most big Islamic States, but only a few.

I'm sorry TTT, but it does automatically mean subjugation for women.

That's like asking what's the point of following the Ten Commandments for a Christian. Many Muslims believe it is important to follow a certain interpretation of Sharia. Many do not.

For one to claim its nearly the same is very wrong. The Ten Commandments are entirely different and offer justice, freedom and safety, as opposed to complete opposite, the Shari'ah Law.

Many support the full Shari'ah Law. Look at Egypt (82% percent believe in stoning people, cutting arms off for theft, 73% for killing non-Muslims...). Look at Iran. Look at Pakistan (there are a few cities were this doesn't occur, but that's only 2-3 cities..). Look at North Africa. Look at Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Iraq... or look at Saudi Arabia where women are literally stopped by police and told to wear more clothing (tourists don't have to though).

EDIT REPLIES TO LATER POSTS:
Unfortunately, I cannot reply to later posts (which I had already had a post for, but it was deleted) as I was told not to by mods (off-topic). Even though people would like to think differently about the issues I have presented, this doesn't mean they are correct. I'm sorry Sultan, I did have a reply to and directed what you brought up and why, um, to put it politely was 'wrong' but alas, I am not allowed to post it....

 

[Ilyena]

TTT, can you please tell me what benefits a Muslim receives when living under Sharia law? Please include benefits for both males and females.

And what is the point of living under these laws in the mind of a Muslim?

What are the benefits of living under any law system? Sharia law is pretty much a law system based on the teachings of the Quran and the prophet Muhammed. Since many muslims believe that Islam is not only a religion but a way of life, this is where Sharia comes into play.

As far as incorporating Sharia into western laws, I don't think it should or will happen. A lot of countries in the west are huge melting pots (Britain, Canada, US) with a many different cultures and religions so it wouldn't really work.

Just a heads up guys, this thread is not about analyzing Sharia law but what people think about Britain becoming an Islamic State. Let's not stray far from the original topic. Thanks.

 

[Sultan]

As an individual who's been raised in a country under Sharia law, maybe I can provide some info according to my acquired knowledge.

1) There's no religious ruling on the prohibition of women driving. The majority of Muslim nations, though they don't necessarily follow Sharia, allow driving for both genders. However, sharia does not dictate that women are not allowed to drive. In fact, the process of legalizing driving for women in Saudi is under study. You can understand why a slowly developing country would want to take its sweet time in a matter that reshapes the people's every day lives there.

2) There is no Islamic decree that justifies FGM. Male circumcision is obligatory, while female circumcision is not. And if practiced it is not a complete removal of the clitoris, and some of those who practice it justify it with a Hadith that is not Sahih ( the hadith is poor and not narrated by an authoritative source). The shariah law of Saudi follows the rulings of the Quran and Hadith sahih. http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=60703&d=20&m=3&y=2005

3) Education is an act of worship and is encouraged to both males and females. In Jeddah, my hometown, there are better academically performing females than males. We have female doctors, administrators, scientists and so on.

4) Honorable killings? http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543362&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaE

5) Men are not superior to women in Islam. Men were given the burden of leadership, and leading is a service. In no way are men and women viewed as unequal, only different.

6) Women are indeed required to cover their bodies and hair.. in public. Women are free to dress as they like in the comfort of their homes and in the presence of their close relatives. Theoretically, if there are public areas where only women are allowed then there isn't a need to cover oneself.

If they are in the company of non-related or strange men, then they are required to cover their bodies. The Burka is only optional, but encouraged if the individual is wearing make up.

7) Child marriages are extremely rare today, are not socially acceptable in today's standards and are executed in the lesser developing and lower educated areas. It is more of a Bedouin tradition than anything else. It predates Islamic ruling and was practiced in a sense that the bride and groom would grow to be tied to one another. Any action that harms the individual, child or no, is extremely forbidden. That includes forced entry of any kind.

8) As for Domestic Violence:

"Abusing the wife physically or emotionally is not allowed in Islam, and the Muslim husband is required to fear Allah and set a good example for his wife and do his best to have a successful marital life that is based on piety and righteousness. It is unbecoming of the Muslim husband to abuse his wife physically or emotionally, the thing which threatens the family, the very core of society."

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544256


9) Reports of rape are dealt with careful investigation, and the case of drinking alcohol, adultery and fornication is only punishable if it was reported by -at least- 4 practicing adult muslims. In Islam, you are required to not speak publically about sins that you actively commit or have committed. " The gates of forgiveness and redemption is always open till your last breath or till the sun rises from the west" as we say. Any -immoral- sin that does not involve harming others physically, financially etc. such as drinking is between you and god. If you were to drink in the presence of at least -four adult muslims- then you will be reported and prosecuted accordingly. In short, don't fornicate, commit adultery, drink and commit similar sins in -PUBLIC-. The reason for being secretive about the sins that you commit is because you won't be influencing others. If you do it in public then you would probably cause mischief into certain individual's hearts and in turn they might become influenced by your actions.

Sins that include -direct- harm to others, such as dealing drugs, rape, thievery, murder and so on, does not require the presence of 4 adult witnesses. It is taken immediately under investigation.


Know that the information I provided is according to my knowledge of the laws that are applied from Hanafi Muslim Shariah, which Saudi Arabia follows. Know that I am not oblivious to certain incidents that have been surfacing on the news, but these examples do no dictate the actual teachings of Islam but reflect those who are not well educated in their religion, corrupt, misinterpreted their teachings, bluntly perverting their teachings to meet their own interest and end, violating the teachings or possibly following a certain school of Islam that has developed far in time from the original teachings of Islam's inception.

Remember that there are many reports of perverted acts that are not exclusive to the muslim world, but also pertain to the rest of the world. Know that the majority of Muslim nations are developing countries and ideal high quality education in Islamic and non-Islamic subjects is not widely available.

The benefits of shariah to Muslim men and women are spiritual and religious benefits that allow them to practice their beliefs in a society that holds their values dearly. I can't really say much on the subject of Britain becoming an Islamic state, because I'm not very knowledgeable on the matter, and I apologize if my post does not contribute to this thread's subject. As a Muslim I am to respect foreigners, their choices and their beliefs in their own societies and cultures, and only judge with cultural relativism.

I would normally say that if an individual wants to live their life in a way that violates the laws of one's country, they should leave for one that suits their values and beliefs. I usually say this to those who want to lead certain unfavorable lifestyles in a Muslim country such as the one I hail from and ask for my advice. However in this case, Britain is one that isn't initially established on religious laws (the current government, anyways) and it has its own distinct religion-free and liberal qualities so I understand why the position of being against the concept of a religious government is apparent. Whatever Britain's future might be I only hope it is one of progression and benefit for all, Muslims and non Muslims alike.

God bless.