What's wrong with Square Enix's current direction?

Sheechiibii said:
True there was discussion of a merger going on long before it actually took place, but X-2 was made by Square when they were still on their own, and was another attempt by them to get more money since it would cost less to make and still bring in good amount of profit. Although they were in talks about the merger and even when they had agreed for the merger to go ahead, the companies were still separate until January 14th, when all the issues and discussions about how it would happen were resolved. By that point X-2 would have been nearly completed. When it comes to merging companies they do not work together until there is a final agreement in place, because until then there is no way for them to decide who gets what, who does what, how much one company owns and how much another company owns. So while there was discussion about how, if and when the companies would merge long before X-2 was even thought up, before X even, until they got the green light to go ahead with it, the companies were still working separately, and Square were the ones working on X-2.

I think the problems came from the money issues they had, that was when they started trying to find ways to save the company, when they planned X-2 because it was reusing resources that they already had, when they changed around their management and Sakaguchi left. If X-2 had not been so profitable it's debatable if we'd even have XIII-2 and XIII-3. Square was the company that started reusing resources, and when they merged with Enix they kept going with it because it worked so well.

I don't think the merger has anything to do with why the company has gone 'downhill' - but then again, I don't think it has gone downhill. I thought XII was a solid game, easily as good as some of the older games. XIII was rubbish, but that whole saga is Toriyama's baby, and thankfully he's not in charge of the next one (and hopefully is never let near another FF game again). If you think about it we've only had two games that could be considered 'bad' - X-2 and XIII - and now everyone is saying the company is going downhill because of it? I think it's way to soon to be saying that.

Then again, if they hadn't made the changes they made to management and to costs, would there even be a franchise to speak about? They were nearly bankrupt, they scraped their way back barely, and they had to change the company when they did.
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Square wasn't completely on their own with X-2. You didn't read all the links. Wada started working for Squaresoft in 2000. There were staff changes before the merger all over place. Sakaguchi and Uematsu, the creators of Final Fantasy weren't even involved with X-2. The board got greedy and Wada convinced them to put him in charge and was the major player in the eventual merger and the change in the way Final Fantasy games were made. They weren't doing that badly financially when Sakaguchi ran things. The board just got greedy and went corporate gangbusters. X-2 had good sales but those loyal to Square purchased it and were met with heartache. People still got XII because of better reviews and a better word of mouth. XII was not bad at all. Story was a little convoluted, no world map that I could travel with Airships which was a FF staple but not a bad game at all. XIII series...we agree we don't need to go there. I even purchased XIII with more broken promises. You would have to have played all or at least the PS1 era Final Fantasies to notice the downfall. Square Enix has reported losses. They aren't doing well. Fortunately Wada isn't running things but I still think he's on the board have to check that. It's actually 5 games. X-2, XII (least of the 5) XIII, XIII-2, and LRFFXIII is utter garbage. What they should have done is the board should have grown a pair, and left Sakaguchi in charge. They got too greedy pure and simple. So really the downfall isn't about the merger, or the companies. Hirnobo Sakaguchi and Nobuo Uematsu are Final Fantasy. When those men left, Final Fantasy left. Many consider X, just X the last true Final Fantasy as it's the last Final Fantasy Sakaguchi and Uematsu had input on. Also Sakaguchi and Uematsu didn't just leave. They were muscled out and they were only having financial problems because of The Spirits Within. Good discussion/dual lol but I'm tired so I'll be back to discuss and argue another day :smiff:
 
spoonyrogdrumps said:
Square wasn't completely on their own with X-2. You didn't read all the links. Wada started working for Squaresoft in 2000. There were staff changes before the merger all over place. Sakaguchi and Uematsu, the creators of Final Fantasy weren't even involved with X-2. The board got greedy and Wada convinced them to put him in charge and was the major player in the eventual merger and the change in the way Final Fantasy games were made. They weren't doing that badly financially when Sakaguchi ran things. The board just got greedy and went corporate gangbusters. X-2 had good sales but those loyal to Square purchased it and were met with heartache. People still got XII because of better reviews and a better word of mouth. XII was not bad at all. Story was a little convoluted, no world map that I could travel with Airships which was a FF staple but not a bad game at all. XIII series...we agree we don't need to go there. I even purchased XIII with more broken promises. You would have to have played all or at least the PS1 area Final Fantasies to notice the downfall. Square Enix has reported losses. They aren't doing well. Fortunately Wada isn't running things but I still think he's on the board have to check that. It's actually 5 games. X-2, XII (least of the 5) XIII, XIII-2, and LRFFXIII is utter garbage. What they should have done is the board should have grown a pair, and left Sakaguchi in charge. They got too greedy pure and simple. So really the downfall isn't about the merger, or the companies. Hirnobo Sakaguchi and Nobuo Uematsu are Final Fantasy. When those men left, Final Fantasy left. Many consider X, just X the last true Final Fantasy as it's the last Final Fantasy Sakaguchi and Uematsu had input on. Also Sakaguchi and Uematsu didn't just leave. They were muscled out and they were only having financial problems because of The Spirits Within. Good discussion/dual lol but I'm tired so I'll be back to discuss and argue another day :smiff:
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Yes there were staff changes, but those changes were down to Square, not Enix. Not before the merger. The changes with management and Sakaguchi leaving, they all took place before the merger happened. They took place because the company was in bad shape at the time, and was on the way to bankruptcy, the company had to make changes to save itself. They were having problems before Spirits Within, that was just another problem adding to Square's downfall at the time. Without those changes they made who knows if there'd even be a company now, merged or not. It wasn't about greed, it was about keeping the company in business. They found shortcuts in production, ways to save money, and still bring in good money from sales. Because of those strategies they managed to save the company from dying, but what type of company wouldn't stick with a good thing once they've found it? I have played all the games since VII, and I don't agree that it's gone downhill. Two bad games (not even successively) do not make a bad franchise, if XII hadn't been good I'd agree but it was. I say two because I count the XIII games as one big mistake (Toriyama's mistake). XII was a great game.
 
Sheechiibii said:
X-2 was still Squaresoft, so saying the franchise has gone downhill since the merger doesn't work if you're also saying it's gone downhill since X. I wouldn't say that Square abandoned their male fanbase with X-2, I mean Rikku wasn't wearing that costume for the girl gamers. It's not the story I like in X-2, it's the gameplay, there is so much to do and I liked the levelling system and the battle system, yes the story could have been far better, same with XIII-2, but personally I rate them higher than VII because I didn't enjoy the gameplay in VII. Nonetheless, it's down to taste, and I don't think it's possible for anyone to judge a game with no bias once they've played it because personal preference will always play a part.



Nope, X-2 was made by Squaresoft before the merger with Enix.
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The battle system in FF XIII-2 was awesome IMO. I loved the aspect of catching monsters, leveling them up, and having the fight alongside of Serah and Noel. That added a certain element of strategy to assembling your battle team. It was a nice fresh addition that I definitely approve of. It had a Pokemon feel to it and that for me is awesome because I love me some Pokemon. While its not the best battle system like X was for me, I still loved it.
 
As far as when the merger took place and what was the last game... Officially, the Merger was finished in April 2003, With Enix holding majority stocks or the "surviving company" is the correct term... in Square-Enix...

Final Fantasy X-2 was released in Japan in March... So, just before the merger was X-2 released.

Now you can get into the talks of they were going merge before then, but the flop of Spirit Within held back the Merger and all that stuff... but X-2 was officially all SquareSoft's doing.

Now my problem with Square Enix right now... is that it is basically all about Final Fantasy or Phone games. Can't blame them... but what made both companies so amazing was they released so many random games...

Square had Mana series, Saga series, Parasite Eve series then one hit wonders like Threads of Fate, Xenogears, Super Mario RPG... the list goes on...

Enix had Star Ocean series, Ogre Battle Series, ActRaiser series... then they also had one hit wonders like Illusion of Gaia, Paladin Quest, Valkeria Profile and so on....

Now I swear, it seems like all these series have long died... sure we get a remake, or we see one talked about every now and then... but now it is either Final Fantasy... Phone game... or they count on Eidos to make stuff, when both companies had many great games from Nintendo era, to the Super Nintendo and Sega era, all the way up to the PS2 era....
 
It wouldn't be so bad with them being all about Final Fantasy if they were releasing games at the rate they used to. But newer generation of consoles seem to take longer to produce game sadly, and I do think that while they are using their time to do these big productions they should try to make other, smaller budget games in between to keep some diversity, and you never know, they could make something great by accident. That's how FF started in the first place.
 
Sheechiibii said:
It wouldn't be so bad with them being all about Final Fantasy if they were releasing games at the rate they used to. But newer generation of consoles seem to take longer to produce game sadly, and I do think that while they are using their time to do these big productions they should try to make other, smaller budget games in between to keep some diversity, and you never know, they could make something great by accident. That's how FF started in the first place.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stop making FF games or anything... but I mean... seriously, where are those smaller budget games? they don't all need to be phone games either... I mean try to make Mana... Saga... Star Ocean... or take a chance with a new name
 
Bender is Great said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stop making FF games or anything... but I mean... seriously, where are those smaller budget games? they don't all need to be phone games either... I mean try to make Mana... Saga... Star Ocean... or take a chance with a new name
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They have an accountant as a CEO now. They're going to keep picking the lowest hanging fruits with the least amount of risk going into them. Say what you want about Wada's deficiencies, but he was a large reason for Drakengard 3 to be even made in the first place before he stepped down from his lofty perch. Would Matsuda do anything similar? Who knows, but I'm not holding my breath. Drakengard 3 in the grand scheme of things looks like an anomaly, and it probably is.

Since Mana has been brought back as a smartphone social game, I'm afraid this is where the old IPs will end up. Spinoffs bearing the Final Fantasy moniker can thrive as handheld releases with a teensy bit more risk, but the more obscure ones are all on that mobile and social gravy train going cross-country as far as possible until the mobile market becomes too saturated and short-termist for Square to viably put so much of their hand into.

But the main clanger here is the state of the Japanese market and industry, where gaming lacks the kind of societal ubiquity as in the West, thereby is more of a hobby for teenagers and people in the early 20s. An industrial realm dominated by the seniority rule so tired old men in suits sit at the top vainly trying to work out and vociferously milk what is hip and cool with young 'uns, frightened to death of rocking the boat too much. It's hardly a vision and it's decisively short-termist at best. Younger talent with more of a vision, though they exist, is barely as cultivated by the big Japanese game corporations as they are elsewhere, so logically where else can one turn but to mobile?

Frankly, Square-Enix needs to do more to cultivate younger talent, new creativity and fresh blood. Where would Disney be now if it were as insular and reliant on a very few number of B-tier individuals?

And this is where I sway from people online who constantly pine for Sakaguchi's return so the mythical "good old days" can come back. He hardly became a success story with Mistwalker and even if he can discard that chip on his shoulder with Square-Enix as a company, why would he be this miraculous Jesus who will swoop in and cure much of the malaise of the company? Developing projects as large, complex and soul-draining as modern Final Fantasy is far, far, far more than one person, at least it honestly should be - don't look at me, I'm not an expert on SE logistics and (un)organisation. I am fine with Final Fantasy changing, evolving and diverging from what it once was. They shouldn't adhere to the old tried and tested. I generally prefer new to the old, warts and all. I like change and I don't want fossils.

Square needs a much more comprehensive restructuring and reorganisation. There has NOT been a mainline FF game that hasn't gone through a developmental nightmare since either FFX or FFXI. A dozen or so years ago. That speaks MAGNITUDES for how screwed up something must be in Tokyo. I don't even need to mention the journey that Versus XIII/FFXV has undertaken after all these years. And I'm not convinced the company has much of a vision left, or at least a coherent one so long as dinosaurs remain as the dominant species at the top. There has been some promising overtures with Yoshi-P and Tabata tipped for something greater after their respective projects, but it's not enough. The problem with Square is that they have had no direction in recent years.
 
I usually say Final Fantasy went horrible after XII. Sure we got the stupid spin offs, and others, but Final Fantasy still was strong at heart. Final Fantasy 12 was a mix bag because of the story suddenly changing direction. It wasn't that Vaan wasn't annoying, it was that he got pointless later in the story. Which was a bummer for some but others accepted it. It was still a classic Final Fantasy and enjoyable.

We had dissidia that was enjoyable although the concept wasn't perfect. And no one was complaining about getting that game. So there were still things that we were getting that were great.


NO the sucky thing is that we got Motomu Toriyama as director, the man who gave us XIII, at first he acts all humble, saying he's nervous as being director and everything, but his ego suddenly skyrockets the moment XIII is released. Whats worst is the man refuses to admit what went wrong. And the only time he admits its wrong when he added a DLC in XIII-2. but that was still when he was interviewing fans in europe on what they thought was wrong.

But here's the kicker, we continue and continue to get sequels off XIII, do people HATE XII? some people 'probably' do. but i dont think the level of hate goes as close as to 13, because SE continues to smash 13 into our throats while 12 continues to be the quiet but controversial game that it is, but in retrospect, does 12 really seem that awful?

Why final fantasy series is going down the drain? because of lightning.....Se continues to love lightning so much there is no doubt in my mind we're going to see her in another game, just as a guest. and although cloud did it for sure, it wasn't as intrusive and he didn't appear in any major games outside the 7 series (keyword "major")
 
Razberry Knight said:
Why final fantasy series is going down the drain? because of lightning.....Se continues to love lightning so much there is no doubt in my mind we're going to see her in another game, just as a guest. and although cloud did it for sure, it wasn't as intrusive and he didn't appear in any major games outside the 7 series (keyword "major")
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So...it's going downhill because of ONE numbered title? One character? Lightning hasn't appeared in any major games outside of XIII series either. This is the last of the XIII titles, so I don't see how she can be the reason it's going down the drain (going being a constant) when they're finished with her now?
 
Sheechiibii said:
So...it's going downhill because of ONE numbered title? One character? Lightning hasn't appeared in any major games outside of XIII series either. This is the last of the XIII titles, so I don't see how she can be the reason it's going down the drain (going being a constant) when they're finished with her now?
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Yes, currently it has gone downhill because of 1 numbered title that continues to shove 2 direct sequels, and more and more guest appearance all at once. at least cloud doesn't do it excessively. Only few appearances.

but here, Lightning has been doing it far more than needed, even appearing in prada.

BUT i'm not saying that its going to stay downhill, but the series is taking a blow just because SE wants 13 and specifically lightning.
 
Razberry Knight said:
at least cloud doesn't do it excessively. Only few appearances.
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:ahmed:

Final Fantasy Tactics

Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns

Both Dissidia's

Final Fantasy Theatrhymes

Final Fantasy All the Bravest

Chocobo Racing games

Ehrgeiz

Kingdom Hearts

Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories

Kingdom Hearts 2

Little Big Planet

... I'm pretty sure there are more things outside of FFVII that Cloud has appeared in....

But how can you say that XIII is the downhill when people say that it has been going downhill since X? so it really isn't just one character or game number (y)
 
Bender is Great said:
:ahmed:

Final Fantasy Tactics

Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns

Both Dissidia's

Final Fantasy Theatrhymes

Final Fantasy All the Bravest

Chocobo Racing games

Ehrgeiz

Kingdom Hearts

Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories

Kingdom Hearts 2

Little Big Planet

... I'm pretty sure there are more things outside of FFVII that Cloud has appeared in....

But how can you say that XIII is the downhill when people say that it has been going downhill since X? so it really isn't just one character or game number (y)
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Kingdom Hearts series, Chocobo Racing, All the Bravest, and Dissidia has been all about previous installments making it in.

Ergheiz, Tactics, and Little Big PLanet i will give. Lightning Returns is the only game where he doesn't appear and only steals his iconic outfit for promotional reasons.

Most people loved 10, others "liked" the previous installments after 10 but didn't love it, or have hated it. I think people have been saying "since 10" right after "10". its way too early, and the trend caught on way too fast. 12 was a great game, and then we got other intallments, sure it was the rise of spin offs, but that doesn't mean all spin offs were horrible.
 
I agree with Fleur the most. To the rest here. I did like XII. It was a good game but it wasn't Final Fantasy. I agree with you Sheech that X-2 was made under Squaresoft, but Squaresoft wasn't Squaresoft because Sakaguchi wasn't involved with Final Fantasy. So more accurately Squaresoft was Squaresoft but Final Fantasy wasn't Final Fantasy. I'm ok with change and I don't pine for Sakaguchi's return and I'm all for new blood but these elements must be in place or it's not Final Fantasy:

It's an RPG with a party system. I wan't to control my party. Action RPG's aren't Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy is not a shooter It can have action element but it must be tactical based
A leveling system that could be anything but levels or gaining of experience points to boost levels and stats
HP, MP, Stats, Status Effects, Magic
A world map that I can travel with different vehicles: airships, boats, cars, trains, chocobos etc
Summons or Monster catchers can be included but not necessary
Story driven narrative written for the educated. I don't need my games made with a lower learning curve.

Other gameplay elements can be included but if the above isn't included it's not Final Fantasy

You don't see Bethesda or Naughty Dog alienating their fans-base with Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Uncharted and The Last of Us.
I'm not an expert either and it does take more than one person, but the director/game creator (the one who has the vision) is the one that has control.

Also The Last Story by Sakaguchi was a good game. He can't do Final Fantasy anymore but he made good games. The Last Story being the best.

I am a Final Fantasy purist in spirit for the most part. There are those out there that hate VII on, but I'm not that rigid
 
Razberry Knight said:
Final Fantasy XII was as much final fantasy as any other FF game.
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I personally agree with this. I can understand why many people would think otherwise, and I have also seen people who categorically say that the series has lost its way since FFIX, but I'm honestly no longer fussed or driven by any sentimental belief that Final Fantasy has to contain X or adhere to A. As far as I am concerned, I just want a good game at the very least. If I receive a great game and I wholly enjoy it, that's great.

My thorough distaste for the FFXIII trilogy thus far for instance is not because it is different (my old posts may come across as having elements of this, but this is where I stand now). The franchise is free to - as it should be - to reinvent itself, though perhaps not too radically that it completely loses all form of identity.

Now the question is: does Square have the capability to innovate in a certain way that Final Fantasy can be a leader or a benchmark for the JRPG genre? Or will it remain as it has done in recent years by doing the following:

- Including all these elements from other games and franchises into FFXIII-2 in a tick-box sort of way, without properly thinking about how these elements should be properly incorporated into the gameplay, e.g. pointless dialogue "choices" as being merely cosmetic because - hey, everyone likes Mass Effect, amirite?

- Oddly namechecking OTHER games as benchmarks. See Toriyama's "Let's beat Skyrim" remark about Lightning Returns.

- I hear good things about ARR: FFXIV, but it just sounds to me like an MMO unlikely to earn that same level of unique identity that FFXI has. FFXI stands on its own as something you perhaps can't find a parallel MMO that clones it substantially, while ARR from what I have read is too adherent to the WoW format, and doesn't do anything too differently to distinguish itself beyond the name and the FF cosmetics. Now, not to say this is fundamentally or inherently bad though.

In other words, Final Fantasy hasn't been a benchmark in recent years. Most people haven't looked at it this last gen and said "yup, it defined the genre and this generation once again". Perhaps they nailed the action-RPG with Type-0 and at heart it could have been potentially influential. But as we've never seen it in English, how would we know?

As an addendum, I'm not strictly saying that a Final Fantasy has to be something genre-defining and very individualistic to be a Final Fantasy. Of course not. You can give me a very serviceable FF that doesn't rock the boat and so long as it is a good game, I wouldn't mind too much. But I'm raising the point that FF should aim for something more. It is at its best when it does. It's where it differs from a franchise like Tales, which has been generally run-of-the-mill in its history, and can afford to be, because that's what it is. A generally decent RPG series (presumably. I haven't played any of them...), but not one that pushes boundaries.
 
spoonyrogdrumps said:
Yep it did which is all good. XII is good. but no airships or vehicles, land and water based that I couldn't control. It's supposed to be more open than that. The story wasn't that good either.
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not every FF had airships or vehicles, but even then you had some form of traveling. ALSO, story may have not been the best, but thats not going to be FF staple forever. thats like saying every mario game ahs a good story. it could, but doesn't mean the quality of story is something we all cheer for. No one seems to be knocking down ff2 or ff5 story.
 
Interesting thoughts. But, one must ask what is a good game. Grand Theft Auto has it's niche as well as The Last of Us, Elder Scrolls and other games that have a certain formula for an IP. Xenogears was a good game Squaresoft made and it was it's own IP apart from Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy I-X were different. Nomura has said that the world map of FFXV will be like the 2-D Final Fantasies of old but in 3D. That's a step in the right direction. A good game is a good game, but if it's not of the Final Fantasy formula it shouldn't be called Final Fantasy and should be a different IP. Squinex milking the franchise is shown in games like X-2, some of XII and all of the XIII series.

The day we stop fussing or aren't driven by a certain standard from developers is the day they milk us and not the other way around. Developers should and need to work for us, not the other way. Not in the money profit way that your thinking of but in the creative way. Some people say that someone doesn't know what it wants until it's put in front of them. I couldn't disagree more. I know what I want and so do most fans of what really is the IP of Final Fantasy.
I-IX had some form of vehicle you could control, X and on didn't. Given the constraints of the times for any NES and SNES the stories were great compared to the ones of today.

Also I swear if they create any more Moogles that say Kupo every few seconds I'm gonna blow a gasket!! I swear I have thought about taking a trip to Japan for vacation recently and thought of creating a really large sign that says:

Shut up Kupo Kupo you stupid Kupo Kupo Kupo!!!!!
and hold it in front of Squinex main office

I can stand letting go of turn based combat and except an action rpg. But, if the gameplay sucks, narrative is poorly written and too child-like or too girl power, then I can't accept it.
 
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