We will burn hundreds of copies of the Koran...

[Rydrum2112]

shink- I have no interest in the debate at large, just in debating people who think violence is advocated because their religion was insulted.

sum1- if you want to advocate violence as an appropriate response go ahead but I stand firmly against it.

Read: The God Delusion and maybe you can understand.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Again i ask how is burning a book harmful to others? and respecting someone as an individual is not the same as respecting all their beliefs. I respect people and that is why I am against violence. But I don't have any respect for the belief that the earth is flat, and if you go on saying its true I am not going to respect that belief of yours

If you don't respect a person's beliefs than how can you say that you respect that person? That's like saying that you hate chocolate but you still eat loads of it. It makes no sense.

You keep saying things like it doesn't matter to me, so why should they be upset? Because they don't think the same way as you. They don't have to suddenly decide that their holy book is unimportant just because you believe it. Your beliefs are not their beliefs. That's what everyone is trying to explain to you.

Just because something has no meaning to you doesn't mean it doesn't to other people. The world doesn't revolve around only what you think is important. And I hope the world never does revolve around a single belief system.

You under estimate the effect that religion has on some people's lives, just because it has no effect on yours or mine doesn't make it right to discount it as being unimportant.

sum1- if you want to advocate violence as an appropriate response go ahead but I stand firmly against it.

Read: The God Delusion and maybe you can understand.

No one is advocating violence. You refuse to see the point. You absolutely refuse to see the point. And then you twist whatever you disagree with so that it fits into what you classify as nonsense even if has nothing to do with what was posted in the first place.

We are saying that people have a right to get upset, and just because you don't think it's important, well, who made you king of anything?

Go out and interact with people who are different then you are, and then maybe you'll understand what no book can teach you.

 

[Rydrum2112]

ayum-how do you not understand that you can respect a person as a person and not their beliefs?

Imagine you like someone and they have some stupid belief like that there are invisible fairies at the bottom of their garden. You are telling me you either have to respect that belief or not respect them as a person? It is all or nothing?



As to your other point, I never said they shouldn't get upset. They can feel free to get upset all they want. All I am saying is that the act (burning books) does NOT JUSTIFY VIOLENCE. That is all I am talking about.

If you want to continue to debate religion go here.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Imagine you like someone and they have some stupid belief like that there are invisible fairies at the bottom of their garden. You are telling me you either have to respect that belief or not respect them as a person? It is all or nothing?

This is exactly what I thought you would post. I had a feeling that you would say something like this. Just because you think that your own views are more important than the views of others doesn't make it true. If someone wants to believe in fairies in the bottom of their garden, who I am to tell them not. I suppose I should go burn their garden and their food?

You obviously don't care about religion, neither do I, the only difference is that I don't think that others are stupid for believing in God. Sometimes, I even believe. Sometimes I pray. I don't think it's okay to write that off as stupidity.

You're free to believe whatever you want to believe though, although it would seem that you would deny others the same liberty.

By saying that their beliefs are stupid, you are saying that that person is stupid. To try to spin it anyway other way is only trying to make yourself seem less extreme.

Besides the point, his has gotten grossly off topic. We should stop before a Mod feels the need to step in. I have a feeling we are moments away from a flame war anyway.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Hmm.. the God Delusion_

I'm a physics buff to, you know. And that makes me a very strong opponent in these debates, because I can see both sides of the coin.

I never advocated violence. I advocated abusing freedom of speech as being a it's own form of violence.

You're switching up my words now which is showing that you need to broaden your horizons a little.
I don't put myself above others, I simply try to urge people to rise above the bullshit in the world and see it for what it is. Through that, and only that, can anyone possibly understand how and why things are the way they are. The more people that can do that, the more possible a solution can be made.

As for the god delusion, what is divine and what is not is indeterminate at our stage of civilization_

 

[Rydrum2112]

This is exactly what I thought you would post. I had a feeling that you would say something like this. Just because you think that your own views are more important than the views of others doesn't make it true.

First, don't think my own views are more important than anyones, where do I say otherwise?

If someone wants to believe in fairies in the bottom of their garden, who I am to tell them not. I suppose I should go burn their garden and their food?

If someone wants to believe in it- then go for it, it doesn't effect me at all. Where the hell did you get the impression that I said you should go and burn the garden and their food?

You're free to believe whatever you want to believe though, although it would seem that you would deny others the same liberty.

How am I denying anyone their right, and where did I say that?



If you want to have an adult conversation that is one thing, but if you are going to make up things that I said, or exaggerate then I am done. I am not gonna respond to you misrepresenting what I say anymore.






sum1 you said:

What would any other religion do if they had their holy doctrines burned? Damn right Muslims would get violent, who wouldn't?

That would be advocating violence.


And that is your opinion on what is and isn't determinant- others would disagree.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

If you want to have an adult conversation that is one thing, but if you are going to make up things that I said, or exaggerate then I am done. I am not gonna respond to you misrepresenting what I say anymore.

You're the one misrepresenting what you say. We're just reading what you posted.

You compared Muslims getting upset over people burning their holy book, to someone who's stupid because they believe in fairy's in their garden. What else are we supposed to take from that?

Anyway, this is pointless. You aren't listening and you're misrepresenting what we say. This is my last post in this discussion.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Thats it I am done with it here.

I never compared the muslims to the fairies- I was giving you an example of how you can respect someone and not their beliefs. That had nothing to do with the muslim thing.

How am I missrepresenting what you say I quote exactly what I am talking about and directly address it. Where as you just are making stuff up, like I compared the burning of a book with the belief of fairies...

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Some Muslims would get violent. I didn't say I advocate it. At the same time, I wouldn't be torn about it either. You reap what you sow..

And if you want to throw up the god delusion thing, you should also know the backdrop behind it- Here's an example:
Scientists don't even know what gravity is. They only know how it works. They unify other forces, such as electromagnetism, but even Einstein's equation on gravity can't tie the other forces to it.
The point is, if we haven't figured out any unification of gravity and other forces of our existence, how can we determine if it's divine or not?
In other words, if we can't even understand the physical universe, how can we possibly know the source of it?

 

[Dragon Mage]

I think I speak for everyone when I say this:

Burning an object, be it an effigy or an emblem or a holy text simply to be a righteous dick is in downright poor taste and no one likes it. In fact, it is an act of such outrageous pompousness and self-importance it is almost comedic.

Wow, yeah, so you burned a lot of holy books buddy, way to go. Know what?
The world keeps turning.
The grass still grows.
The birds keep singing.
Your chest-thumping 'protest' didn't do a damn thing.

So if this guy wants to blow his money in the form of Koran burning, be my guest. Protests are only important when they enact change, a movement, a gathering of like-minded people determined to make a change for the better. Protest burnings are nothing more than petulant, little-minded people making a dramatic scene and acting as if they're little temper tantrum actually means something. It only flagrantly displays they're own stupidity and egomania.

Back in the day, like medieval days, book burning would've meant something. It meant the utter destruction of a heathen law or something. It's somewhat gone out of style since then. See, generally, burning something back then was the process of utter annihilation of that object/culture/idea/belief from the world entirely, and this was often the case since the burnings only occurred after or during a total conquest. This is obviously not the case in the modern day and age. So to do any kind of burning protest today is nothing short of a childish tantrum meant to garner attention. Sadly, the media is being idiot enough to lavish that craved attention the demented folk that go to such lengths to get it.

As for the bit about making Christianity looking bad, I don't think we have to worry. Not like it's coming from an authority of the religion. I mean, look at where the message is coming from: A guy with a bible and is a self-proclaimed holy man who is an absolute dick and is obviously a radical idiot that has no companionship besides stray cats and a fern.

Yeah, I think Christianity's reputation is fairly safe.

So yeah, dear people, ignore these jackasses. Laugh and mock them for their idiocy as they burn perfectly good money in an act that means absolutely nothing and will accomplish absolutely nothing except for displaying their downright stupidity to the world.

 

[Trismegistus]

Harlequin, our current knowledge may be finite (though it augments itself dramatically when you're on psychedelics ), but to assume that all Muslims are evil is plainly absurd. Think what you may; there are stubborn facts.

And my likining Catholicism to Christianity was, in fact, a sarcastic gesture. Of course there is nothing in the Bible that equates Catholicism with Christianity. But, in turn, I would like to ask you to find a verse in the Qur'an that equates Islamic ideology with the Wahhabis'.

And for you to tell me it's ironic that I don't, in fact, know if not all Muslims are violent... I've lived in the Middle East, my friend. I've mingled with Muslims for most of my life. And I've never felt any bad blood between the Muslims and the Christians living there. Now tell me; have you lived in the Middle East?

Finally... I wasn't attacking any religion in defense of Islam. My reference to the Old Testament verse was a) sarcastic, and b) to show that YES -- as generic as it may be, it's pragmatically valid -- violence is advocated in many scriptures. It's a rebuttal against those who justify banning or destroying the Qur'an because of a verse that speaks of the killing of infidels. If they were to have it their way, I would suggest destroying many scriptures.

My point was this; it's not fair to the peaceful Muslims all over the world to be prejudiced against what they believe in. Personally, however, I really don't give a damn; whether the event goes on or not won't affect me personally. I'm a model agnostic prone to a lot of sarcasm, and a proponent of what the great Robert Anton Wilson called guerrilla ontology.

Here's another analogy to you, Harlequin -- aimed also at the people who -- yes -- do not wish to educate themselves more. It's pretty ironic in your case to be having an idea on Muslims that's been heavily influenced by the same media that you were criticizing.

Don't teach a pig how to sing; you'll waste your time, and you'll annoy the pig.

-- old Irish proverb

 

[Gaige]

Using an Irish proverb. I love that one.

The Koran is actually considered a holy book. The Muslims, radical and conservative, consider it the actual word of God. They believe that God actually spoke to Muhammad through Gabriel and that the Koran was the result. To burn it is to blaspheme, in their eyes. It's not much better than burning God. And in the end, burning books is sinister and ignorant. You're burning harmless knowledge. Knowledge isn't dangerous. The people who manipulate it are.

 

[Harlequin]

I didn't say you personally, I said the religion as a whole. And Christianity and other religions have proven throughout history that that's just what they intend to do. It may not be the purpose of religion but it is how mankind choose to use it. Communism is a theory is great as well, but humans just can't do it.

Look I don't mean to take it as personally as it would seem I am, I just don't like people getting the wrong idea. Chrisitianity isn't about fighting, it's about the human transcendence of death.

Humans can't do anything right, nothing works. We're limited beings.

And you can claim the Bible doesn't say it, and I could claim it did, that just marks how foolish it is to base any argument on a book that relies more on your own interpretation of it.

No but it's a manual for life, and considering we know nothing of our lives we have to believe which is the core theme in religion. It's unfair to say it should be more definate because it's only as definate as it needs to be and in fairness were it so you'd probably be criticising that facet.

But to put it back on topic, I believe that it's wrong to prosecute any minority on the actions of a few of its members.

Agreed.

And I'm no more out of my depth then anyone else is here, considering this isn't a religious forum but one based around a video game. I wasn't aware that I needed a degree in theology to discuss things.

Sorry about that.

 

[Dragon Mage]

D: Admire my post dammit! It was funny! Did you see, it had a funny in it!


*cough*

Well, actually all I wanted to say was this: It's perfectly fine and harmless when people have a religion. No worries there.

But when a government gets religion, shit gets dangerous.

Think about it. It happened during the Dark Ages with Catholicism. It's happening now in the Middle East with Islam.

Governments just shouldn't have religion. Faith is something you can't hand out in mass manufacture and put daily requirement labels on. Sad thing is, Religion Government tries to do just that. It isn't the religion that's bad-- it's the government that mangled it that's bad.

 

[Ewan]

Because it's more than a book to that person. I've said it dozen of times and you won't listen. If I burned a Bible, I know people who would hit me in the face for it. And you know what? I would deserve it. I shouldn't burn something that they hold precious when they as a group have done nothing wrong.

No you wouldn't. It's free speech and expression, not "say what you like... but don't say anything that offends me or I'll hurt you". If all it takes is the threat of violence or a large group of people getting offended then what message are we sending out? We are saying that certain subjects are not allowed to be criticised rendering our "freedom" meaningless.

Freedom of Speech is a great thing but it does not give me the right to be harmful to others for something they didn't even do.

The only harm that is being done is that they are getting offended and you're allowed to do that. If he owns them, then he can do whatever he likes with them. It's not about whether he's right or wrong, it's about him being allowed his liberty.

Muslims need to be desentised to criticism. The main reason that this is causing an uproar is because as people have already said, myself included, is that it's going to cause problems like violence. But we shouldn't even have to be worrying about this because you can't just start hurting people because something offends you. Overreaction is an understatement.

 

[DarkShadow]

Sum1: Your point makes no sense. If people act rationally then there wouldn't be a problem. If you get offended because I don't respect your religion get over it, don't attack me. Just because someone else does something stupid that doesn't give you the right to react with more stupidity. What is bullshit is you getting all worked up because I don't think a book has some sacred value (or because I don't care about your religion), and it is also bullshit that you think violence is an appropriate response.


Darkshadow: A copy of the koran is just paper and ink. If you want to attribute more to some pages you are free to do so but I don't have to hold it as sacred just because you do- to me it is just another book. What you are saying, is that if someone else holds something "sacred" others have to also. It is complete BS and against free speech.

Why does religion get so much respect that it can't be insulted? If someone believed the earth was 5000yrs old, or if it was flat- I don't think you two (dark & sim1) would be upset that people were laughing at that belief.

What is so special about religion?

Here your just talking about how you don't give a fuck............how the quran is just paper and ink........and why does a religion get so much respect?

I'm sure if we burned the quran the non-extremist muslims would be angry but not do anything about it...........and same goes for christians...........If muslims burned the Bible I'm sure christians woulod be mad and it woulkd cause global outrage just like it has done here.........but unlike Islam christians won't do anything............And if we burned the quran most muslims would be mad but would just carry on with their lives...........But the extremists will go crazy.........

A perfect example would be the Danish cartoonists who portrayed the Prophet Muhammed in a bad way or so I heard..........He had millions of death threats as well as protests in several muslim countries.........He also had people trying to kill him but all failed..........But in this situation burning the quran which is the holy book of the faith is just taking it too far.........It's almost like triggering another attack on America if they do!...........Well it could be too late anyway........As I'm sure if an orginization like Al Qaeda heard someone wanted to burn the quran.........they are not going to go too well about it!

You asked:Why does religion get so much respect that it can't be insulted?
Answer:Because a minority of them are extremists which could trigger attacks on america...........

What is so special about religion?
Answer:It's a way of life for people..........And if you want a good example why people think it soo special........... Look at the taliban they stupidly kill themselves in the name of tehir religion.............And I did hear in the quran it said killing yourself is haram (forbidden)...........as well as people.

 

[Sir Fratley]

As a former soldier of the US Army and having fought in Iraq, I have seen both sides of the argument. The Islamic faith is flawed in many dangerous ways. Firstly, they are not allowed to make a stand against other Islamic followers, even when they are doing evil. So this whole religion can be warped and while other Muslims can disagree with those warpings, they can't outwardly oppose them or try to stop them. Also, there is a part in the holy book of theirs that allows them to lie in order to prevent others from persecuting them. Back when it was instated, they were being hunted. However, now it can be used in manipulating others.

What probably haunted me the most was one house raid on a bomb maker. Their children were watching a cartoon about a kid strapping a bomb to himself, blowing up a convoy and being shown to fly to heaven where the kid was rewarded.

However, all of this aside, even I am against the burning of these books. My reasoning is because it shows that that preacher and those who support him are hypocrites to their own faith by that action. Jesus said love thy enemy and love thy neighbor, and insulting another religion like that violates their own code. There are far better ways to honor the memories of those who died that tragic day.

Not to mention the whole book burning thing gives off a weird Hitler vibe.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

The bottom line is that if 100's of copies of the Bible was burned to advance Islamic belief, it would start a lot of trouble.

I find it amazing that people expect others to be all 'Dr. King' about it. I find it extremely hypocritical.
If the people burning them were attacked, I wouldn't so much as look twice or flinch.

Muslims follow their religion to a tee. Christians don't. Burning copies of the Quran just makes Christians look more like blasphemers than anything else.
And you can look at history and see what becomes of blasphemers// its a law of nature.

But there's always the laymen terms:
Don't start nothin,, won't be nothin!

 

[Saints&Storms]

The bottom line is that if 100's of copies of the Bible was burned to advance Islamic belief, it would start a lot of trouble.

No it wouldn't, because putting Christians in the same group as Muslims, doesn't equate; like at all.

Our religions are different, completely6 different.

I've burned Bibles before, I don't give a shit it's just a book.

I find it amazing that people expect others to be all 'Dr. King' about it. I find it extremely hypocritical.
If the people burning them were attacked, I wouldn't so much as look twice or flinch.

Again its just a book. I prefer they burn books over Churches filled with people, like they are trying to and have over in Egypt.

Wait, you wouldn't care that people got attacked over a book getting burned?

I presume you'd feel the same over a flag getting burned then? Or a doll of George Bush getting burned because that's what goes on in the middle east?

Muslims follow their religion to a tee. Christians don't. Burning copies of the Quran just makes Christians look more like blasphemers than anything else.
And you can look at history and see what becomes of blasphemers// its a law of nature.

Yes we do follow ours, just because we follow our peacefully and accept mistakes doesn't mean we don't follow it.

Its just a book.

But there's always the laymen terms:
Don't start nothin,, won't be nothin!

Burning a book isn't starting something.

 

[Terra Branford]

@Earlier discussion:

People burn the Bible all the time and Christians don't freak out. People mock Jesus Christ and we don't freak out. People mock the Bible and Christians don't freak out. People draw God and Jesus Christ and we don't freak out. Unless its WBC, of course, but they are lunatics...

Heckle berries, I'm a Christian and I still watch South Park and they mock Jesus Christ and my religion all the time and they are hellah funneh. I don't freak out or jump in a blind rage when they burn Bibles, its just a book, its not the psychical form of Jesus Christ or his Father God. If Christians freaked the way people claim we would....why don't we see it? I mean Jesus Christ as been the theme of a pron film and we didn't say a thing about it...

The bottom line is that if 100's of copies of the Bible was burned to advance Islamic belief, it would start a lot of trouble.

Does happen....a lot in Portugal and Saudi Arabia and we remain calm. ;p

Don't start nothin,, won't be nothin!

I'm a bit confused by this statement...could you explain?

So burning a book is starting something? Does that somehow justify or place reason, behind killing people for something a few wackos do?

Again, I'm a bit confused. Explain-y please?

@Robert_Masters:
You are right. This Preacher and his followers are Hypocrites. Jesus Christ did say that and Jesus Christ did say to love thy neighbor as you would love thyself. This Preacher obviously has not read the Bible...its a shame really. My friend Malik (he lives in Pakistan now) said the same thing about people trying to step up about it. His family has been a target of speaking out against it and has lost family to it....

And yea, it does give off a weird Hitler vibe... >.>

(I have brothers in the Army and Navy, so thank you for serving our country, Robert. Unless you don't want to be thanked, then I apologize >.> )

Sorry if my post isn't coherent...its been a while since I had rest (can't sleep) and my head is hurting me like no other....

Anyway, have a great day everyone!

K~