The Downfall of Final Fantasy.

[Shaissa]

You guys that are blame "enix" for final fantasy do realize that when the merger happen Squaresoft people were the ones that held most of the top jobs and had the most people in the company right?
So before you all blame the Enix company look up who is working on what and where they started from... the head guy of FFXIII Motomu Toriyama Was with SQUARESOFT first, he worked on FFVII and FFX (which was getting worked on before the merger, just came out around the time of the merger.)

But Final Fantasy was always a JAPANESE RPG, look at the top selling rpgs now... most westernized rpgs... So what do you do? Try and stick with the JRPG or go western, when western is selling more and more and jrpgs are selling less and less... Buisness says try to make the games more western... so XIII did that... and XIII-2.. more "action pack"..

Instead of saying the "fall of final fantasy" I think it should be the "fall of jrpgs" because thats whats going on..

 

[Sheechiibii]

You guys that are blame "enix" for final fantasy do realize that when the merger happen Squaresoft people were the ones that held most of the top jobs and had the most people in the company right?
So before you all blame the Enix company look up who is working on what and where they started from... the head guy of FFXIII Motomu Toriyama Was with SQUARESOFT first, he worked on FFVII and FFX (which was getting worked on before the merger, just came out around the time of the merger.)

But Final Fantasy was always a JAPANESE RPG, look at the top selling rpgs now... most westernized rpgs... So what do you do? Try and stick with the JRPG or go western, when western is selling more and more and jrpgs are selling less and less... Buisness says try to make the games more western... so XIII did that... and XIII-2.. more "action pack"..

Instead of saying the "fall of final fantasy" I think it should be the "fall of jrpgs" because thats whats going on..

It's only the fall of jrpg's because they haven't been making good ones. Like FF, they were selling a hell of a lot of games, still are, but for how much longer if they keep pissing off all the people who loved their games the way they were? It's greed making them try to be popular with everyone, they want their jrpg fanbase, but they want new gamers, western-style fans, to like their games too. They'll end up loosing out, that's what I think anyway...

Xx..xX

 

[Grimer]

Am I the only one didnt hate XIII?

Anyways I think XV will be decent, I think Squenix is trying. Trial and error.

 

[JasonsBasement]

Instead of saying the "fall of final fantasy" I think it should be the "fall of jrpgs" because thats whats going on..

AMEN MY CHILDREN!!

Am I the only one didnt hate XIII?

No no good sir - I don't hate it. It did piss me off - but I'm on my third play through and finding more and more interesting parts about it. Right now I'm messing with the Synthesis abilities - you can get some very cool Character combinations.

 

[Grimer]

AMEN MY CHILDREN!!



No no good sir - I don't hate it. It did piss me off - but I'm on my third play through and finding more and more interesting parts about it. Right now I'm messing with the Synthesis abilities - you can get some very cool Character combinations.

Ya I mean, it wasnt amazing but I dont think it was hot garbage like people are saying. I dont think FF has "fallen" per say, I think its just ging through some growing pains.

 

[CHIP]

Sorry about the big words, it refuses to down-size. It depends what you mean by “downfall” – FFXIII was commercially and, generally speaking, critically successful. There’s a schism developing between Final Fantasy fans – some fans are content with Square’s ongoing march towards Westernisation (it’s no secret that FFXIIII was developed to appeal more towards Western sensibilities), i.e. the fast-paced gung-ho combat, increased linearity allowing the developers to make the story more coherent and action-packed like COD – all in an attempt by Square to increase Final Fantasy’s accessibility among more action-centric audiences. The same thing can be seen happening all across the board though, and not just with Final Fantasy.

Compare MGS4 and MGS: Rising to the older games on PS2 and PSone – they’ve become so Westernised that the game is almost unrecognisable to how it used to be. MGS4’s poorly-implemented Resident Evil-gun-customization system was an attempt to win favourability among Western gamers while the tentatively tilted MGS: Rising is now a bona fide hack and slash action game, which is by no means a bad thing since Platinum Games are on the case. By the same token though, there are those who are growing increasingly disenchanted with the increased Westernisation of the Final Fantasy games and feel that the game is losing its core values, which is understandable. To me, FFXIII-2 seems to be an attempt by Square to please both sides – they’ve complaisantly retained traditional Final Fantasy staples, like side-missions, mini-games, and a battle-system that’s not a world away from the older games, etc, while at the same time trying to please COD type of gamers. Basically, they’re trying to please two different audiences simultaneously. No where is this more obvious than with the turn-based/real-time combat system.

One of my biggest complaints with FFXIII and FFXIII-2 was its attempt to mix real-time elements with a turn-based battle-system. It just doesn’t work. I think Square will eventually make the transition to real-time combat – perhaps even in the next game, because the combat system in FFXIII is just too restrictive and archaic, especially when set beside the likes of Mass Effect 2’s real-time combat. I found that playing FFXIII was more akin to playing chess or a management game and the tedious repetitiveness of it was just terrible: you just auto-attack and occasionally change Paradigms until you become acutely aware that nothing different or interesting is ever going to happen and you rinse and repeat ad nauseam. The battle-system in FFXIII does need to be completely reinvented in my view if it wants to compete with the likes of Mass Effect, instead of clinging on to a turn-based battle-system that was first introduced back in the days of the technologically limited Super Famicom. Games have moved on, and Square might be left behind if they still cling on to the inherent restrictiveness imposed by the turn-based system. It’s had its day.

Is Final Fantasy in a downfall? Perhaps. If they don’t change things.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Sorry about the big words, it refuses to down-size. It depends what you mean by “downfall” – FFXIII was commercially and, generally speaking, critically successful. There’s a schism developing between Final Fantasy fans – some fans are content with Square’s ongoing march towards Westernisation (it’s no secret that FFXIIII was developed to appeal more towards Western sensibilities), i.e. the fast-paced gung-ho combat, increased linearity allowing the developers to make the story more coherent and action-packed like COD – all in an attempt by Square to increase Final Fantasy’s accessibility among more action-centric audiences. The same thing can be seen happening all across the board though, and not just with Final Fantasy.

Compare MGS4 and MGS: Rising to the older games on PS2 and PSone – they’ve become so Westernised that the game is almost unrecognisable to how it used to be. MGS4’s poorly-implemented Resident Evil-gun-customization system was an attempt to win favourability among Western gamers while the tentatively tilted MGS: Rising is now a bona fide hack and slash action game, which is by no means a bad thing since Platinum Games are on the case. By the same token though, there are those who are growing increasingly disenchanted with the increased Westernisation of the Final Fantasy games and feel that the game is losing its core values, which is understandable. To me, FFXIII-2 seems to be an attempt by Square to please both sides – they’ve complaisantly retained traditional Final Fantasy staples, like side-missions, mini-games, and a battle-system that’s not a world away from the older games, etc, while at the same time trying to please COD type of gamers. Basically, they’re trying to please two different audiences simultaneously. No where is this more obvious than with the turn-based/real-time combat system.

One of my biggest complaints with FFXIII and FFXIII-2 was its attempt to mix real-time elements with a turn-based battle-system. It just doesn’t work. I think Square will eventually make the transition to real-time combat – perhaps even in the next game, because the combat system in FFXIII is just too restrictive and archaic, especially when set beside the likes of Mass Effect 2’s real-time combat. I found that playing FFXIII was more akin to playing chess or a management game and the tedious repetitiveness of it was just terrible: you just auto-attack and occasionally change Paradigms until you become acutely aware that nothing different or interesting is ever going to happen and you rinse and repeat ad nauseam. The battle-system in FFXIII does need to be completely reinvented in my view if it wants to compete with the likes of Mass Effect, instead of clinging on to a turn-based battle-system that was first introduced back in the days of the technologically limited Super Famicom. Games have moved on, and Square might be left behind if they still cling on to the inherent restrictiveness imposed by the turn-based system. It’s had its day.

Is Final Fantasy in a downfall? Perhaps. If they don’t change things.

You have to remember though that much of their sales are from the long time fans, who don't appreciate some of the changes they are making. I bought XIII, so I helped it be a success. I wasn't prepared for the nonesense game it was. I haven't bought XIII-2 though, and I'm sure a lot of other long time fans won't.

The battle system is not something that takes priority for me. But I think turn based battle systems are far superior to realtime. That's just me, but I'm sure I'm not alone. I disliked XIII's battle system, but not because it was turn based, I disliked it because it was a mess, they tried to go too fast and totally messed up the system. XII worked really well imo though and it was a mix between the two. So it can work.

You say they need to change, FF has always incorporated change into each of their games, but I say if they change too much all they'll do is lose their strong fanbase that they've had for years. Not a good result considering how many of their longterm fans buy their games for the name alone. They lose those fans and they'll definitely fall.

Xx..xX

 

[Setzer007]

Everyone that i come across seems to have a problem with FFX, X-2, XIII, and XIII-2. These are all games that have had Toriyama working on them and as far as i am concerned. he is the main problem. He ruined the "3rd Birthday" as well. As long as this guy is directing our videogames then we can expect the story to be really good and we could also be expecting sequels. I think Kitase should come back and direct and if not, then just have Tabata(Type-0) or Nomura direct them. We'll have to wait and see how Versus XIII go's as far as Nomura go's though.

-Setz-

 

[Sheechiibii]

Everyone that i come across seems to have a problem with FFX, X-2, XIII, and XIII-2. These are all games that have had Toriyama working on them and as far as i am concerned. he is the main problem. He ruined the "3rd Birthday" as well. As long as this guy is directing our videogames then we can expect the story to be really good and we could also be expecting sequels. I think Kitase should come back and direct and if not, then just have Tabata(Type-0) or Nomura direct them. We'll have to wait and see how Versus XIII go's as far as Nomura go's though.

-Setz-

Hmm...see I don't know very many people who disliked X. X-2, XII, XIII are pretty badly hated on, I'd say they're the ones where it went wrong. Can't really speak for XIII-2 since it hasn't been out very long so I don't know what the overall consensus will be on it, but I don't know how you think X is disliked so much. Even on here, the most hated were the three I mentioned. X is pretty popular I'd say. I don't know if they have anything in common other than the fact that they were all designed by SquareEnix instead of Squaresoft.

Xx..xX

 

[vanburman]

Is Final Fantasy Dead?

As we now see some surfacing reports about a possible XV, which would be an Action-RPG as it's more 'mass market'. Are we seeing the downfall of Final Fantasy or even more so the downfall of RPG's as a whole.
We haven't seen an RPG like the Final Fantasy's of old since X, which is now 10 Years ago and I can harldy believe it. I was 10 at the time... which means for me since 1997 till 2002 I have seen the best that RPG's have to offer, In my opinion.

So what do you think? Has RPG's been dead since 2002 ? Also do you think the next and possibly last Final Fantasy RPG will be the Release of a HD remastered version of X ?

 

[C i d]

*Threads merged*

If you are talking about RPGs as general, there are a lot of good relatively recent JRPGs. An example would be Lost Odyssey. It was released in 2008. I'm currently playing it, and it really feels like FFX.


We can't be sure whether JRPGs will be dead forever. Who knows if they will return to the RPG goodness in the distant future.

 

[Subtle-sounds]

WARNING: all opinions given are my own and may not be liked by many of you



Final fantasy met its downfall the moment they created "the spirits within" after that and their quick consolidation from squaresoft to square-enix the final fantasy franchise has slowly died of a slow and debilitating disease.... its own name. I have played ff13 and ff13-2 and they are good games... until i remember its a final fantasy game im meant to be playing... they cant take the pressure of that name and they begin to suck dramatically when i remember this small fact



also ulty...

i too have played lost oddesey and its ok... but incredibly difficult to continue playing... each boss you reach requires to to be 10 levels higher than the previous boss... which means LOTS OF GRINDING in monsters that are giving you like 5 xp per fight

 

[C i d]

also ulty...

i too have played lost oddesey and its ok... but incredibly difficult to continue playing... each boss you reach requires to to be 10 levels higher than the previous boss... which means LOTS OF GRINDING in monsters that are giving you like 5 xp per fight

Yeah, I felt that way too. But the world and story are so good that I kept playing. Besides, you don't really need 10 more levels. Just some strategy and the boss will be dead.

 

[Grimer]

Heres an interesting article I found where the writer breaks down every game up to 13 including X-2 and Tactics, signifying the rise and fall of the series. He comes off as pompus sometimes, and I dont agree with some of what he says, but nevertheless the writer gives a deep breakdown of the series and shows the evolution of its popularity to the decline in his perceived quality of the series. Its a long read, but i found it entertaining nonetheless.

http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=patff

 

[Starships]

^ It's nice that reviewer praised FF7 so much and basically explained why it is a great game and shouldn't deserve the title "overrated " However I disagree with his scores with FF8- FF10 and the praise towards FF12. Still it's a really enjoyable read and gave out a few good laughs, though FF 9 getting a 3/5 score ? Is this writer smoking some pot that clouds his/ her judgement ?



It also doesn't make too much sense, how can you say that the FF series have gone downhill when you say that FF12 is just as good as the old days and yet say that FF8-10 are the falls within the FF history ? A fall within a series would be a recent decline in all games and no gems in the middle. Otherwise it's a report saying that " I haven't like a FF game since FF7, though FF12 was surprisingly decent " It's more " FF13 is crappy, don't buy it " report and he/ she is correct, FF13 is crappy, though it doesn't really show to me a fall within the series like the report should.

 

[Excalibur-king]

Final Fantasy 12 for me was one of the best PS2 games. This new game combines what I loved about the old school FF's and it throws a little bit of the new ones. The story was misunderstood this time it was not about saving the world, or two guys who meet in a adventure and end up falling in love. This story was more complex talking about politics and different races, part of this world etc. Combine this with a great sense of exploration, awesome battle system. the best Summons yet, and you got a perfect recipe for success.

 

[seddy-0]

FF 12 told a complex story of some one who wanted to follow a dream. although the story wasn't as strong as 7 or 10 it was a compelling one. a lot of people say 7 was over rated, but you have to take things into consideration. that was the game that put final fantasy on a whole new level. it helped propel sony as well.that game did more to change the gaming industry than we all think. as for 8. the only way you can put 8 down is if you are not a fan of a drawn out love story. because that is what that game pretty much was. but it was a fun one though. 10 again was another landmark game in the progression of game play and graphics. there was a lot of time put into x, but because the game play was a total shift from what we all were used to in the games of old.
ff13 was a change in pace in the series. again new systems (360-ps3) i feel they tried to update the series and make it more modern. getting away from the everyone having swords and magic kinda deal. i do agree ff13 is a hard pill to swallow, but after playing it enough.. you get past how some things were done. (i.e. splitting up the party constantly) the overall story was really good. but the game play was a bit of an adjustment.

 

[Grimer]

^ It's nice that reviewer praised FF7 so much and basically explained why it is a great game and shouldn't deserve the title "overrated " However I disagree with his scores with FF8- FF10 and the praise towards FF12. Still it's a really enjoyable read and gave out a few good laughs, though FF 9 getting a 3/5 score ? Is this writer smoking some pot that clouds his/ her judgement ?



It also doesn't make too much sense, how can you say that the FF series have gone downhill when you say that FF12 is just as good as the old days and yet say that FF8-10 are the falls within the FF history ? A fall within a series would be a recent decline in all games and no gems in the middle. Otherwise it's a report saying that " I haven't like a FF game since FF7, though FF12 was surprisingly decent " It's more " FF13 is crappy, don't buy it " report and he/ she is correct, FF13 is crappy, though it doesn't really show to me a fall within the series like the report should.

hmm, i saw his praise for FF12 as more sarcastic than genuine. And I do agree with you about IX, I think the writer got really nitpicky and was unfair to the game. He started off strong with the first 7 games, and then the rest turned into a long rant. But I do agree with the writer about how FFVII was both good and bad for the series.

 

[kratoscar2008]

As we now see some surfacing reports about a possible XV, which would be an Action-RPG as it's more 'mass market'. Are we seeing the downfall of Final Fantasy or even more so the downfall of RPG's as a whole.
We haven't seen an RPG like the Final Fantasy's of old since X, which is now 10 Years ago and I can harldy believe it. I was 10 at the time... which means for me since 1997 till 2002 I have seen the best that RPG's have to offer, In my opinion.

So what do you think? Has RPG's been dead since 2002 ? Also do you think the next and possibly last Final Fantasy RPG will be the Release of a HD remastered version of X ?

there are a lot of good rpgs out for PS2 that are better than any FF after X:

Growlanser series (they are srpgs but its more akin to rpgs for me)
Suikoden series
Persona Series

you must only go out of your FF "Shell" and you will find a lot of goods rpgs, this generations sucks at rpgs (Mass effect being the exception). FF 12 was the beggining of the downfall (Altough i played it and liked it) as FFX-2 had a great battle system and enjoyable story for me.

lastly i prefer 1000 time an old school turn based system (Wich suikoden has) than a action oriented battle system (As FFXIII) has.

 

[Linnaete]

As we now see some surfacing reports about a possible XV, which would be an Action-RPG as it's more 'mass market'. Are we seeing the downfall of Final Fantasy or even more so the downfall of RPG's as a whole?

There is nothing wholly objective about the "downfall" because ultimately, whether or not there is a downfall is up to the individual player who may or may not have enjoyed the more recent installments and the experiments they ran with. In terms of general reception towards the newer installments, then yes, I suppose there is a sense of plummeting popularity, but then, if you enjoy a game(s), it doesn't really matter to you. Is it the downfall of the genre in general? Some will say no, that it's just heading through a difficult period, while others will say that they've been largely stagnant and have outlived their era, while jumping over to WRPGs, for instance.

I personally believe that Japan needs to get a move on. No, they should not design a game with the fundamental goal in mind to appeal to a "mass market", because that usually translates to pale imitations of western games or western elements. They should focus on making what they are good at, while at the same time willing to experiment with things - shake things up, make something that can be enticing and that can stand out from amongst the crowd. What they need to adopt from western developers is the increased efficiency in which they develop their games. Partially why Japan has suffered this generation is because they were too unprepared for the current consoles' technology, and had lagged behind significantly compared to their western counterparts.

We haven't seen an RPG like the Final Fantasy's of old since X, which is now 10 Years ago and I can harldy believe it. I was 10 at the time... which means for me since 1997 till 2002 I have seen the best that RPG's have to offer, In my opinion.

Uhh, have you ever considered the fact that there are RPGs out there other than Final Fantasy? Sure, Final Fantasy has decided to dispense with the old turn-based battle system since FFX, but it doesn't mean that everyone else has done that too, as aforementioned already. You want something very traditional? Go check out Dragon Quest VIII or something.

So what do you think? Has RPG's been dead since 2002 ? Also do you think the next and possibly last Final Fantasy RPG will be the Release of a HD remastered version of X ?

No. Disgaea, Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria, Final Fantasy XII, Dragon Quest VIII, Rogue Galaxy and Xenoblade Chronicles are examples of RPGs that I have absolutely enjoyed the heck out of, and they've all been from around 2003 onwards. I've not played the Shin Megami Tensei series yet, but I've heard that they have been some of the craziest and most innovative RPGs ever made. I personally would prefer a more action-like combat system like in Rogue Galaxy than the traditional turn-based system because it feels a lot fresher and more involving. FFXII for me took a bold step for the rejuvenation of the franchise, but I have to admit, it failed on several accounts, and I do believe that as much as I enjoyed its battle system, it was deeply flawed and had plenty of room for perfection.

Sure, there haven't been as many great RPGs lately than in the SNES and PS1 days for instance, which is kind of why I see the genre nosediving a bit lately. Often ones I do come across are just laughably mediocre and/or look so uninspired. There are people who claim that Level-5 can do no wrong. Yes, I loved Rogue Galaxy and DQVIII, but a few glances at the White Knight Chronicles titles tell me otherwise.

And no, I can't see FFX HD being the last FF game. Chances are, it will sell a truckload, and there is no reason why Square would can Final Fantasy now when as a moneymaker, it is still a titan of a franchise.