The Downfall of Final Fantasy.

Rapture

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Since this thread is really about what's gone wrong with the Final Fantasy series, I'm going to merge this into the "Downfall of Final Fantasy" thread. (Threads merged).
 

Grimer

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To those saying the new FF's are the worst in the series.....

Are we just going to act like XII didnt have alot of stuff to do in the game?

Are we just going to act like I,II,III, and V didnt have terribly weak stories?

Are we just going to act like VII's story wasnt a convolted mess?

Are we just going to act like Squall isnt just as moody and poutty as Lightning?

I agree the spinoffs and movies arent needed and are just quick cash grabs, but I think SE was sincerely trying with XII and XIII, look at XIII-2, they heard the fans complaints about XIII so they are changing the gameplay to make people happy.

I noticed FF fans tend to be emotional, picky, and sometimes unreasonable.

Im part of that group too though:)
 

Sheechiibii

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To those saying the new FF's are the worst in the series.....

Are we just going to act like XII didnt have alot of stuff to do in the game?

Are we just going to act like I,II,III, and V didnt have terribly weak stories?

Are we just going to act like VII's story wasnt a convolted mess?

Are we just going to act like Squall isnt just as moody and poutty as Lightning?

I agree the spinoffs and movies arent needed and are just quick cash grabs, but I think SE was sincerely trying with XII and XIII, look at XIII-2, they heard the fans complaints about XIII so they are changing the gameplay to make people happy.

I noticed FF fans tend to be emotional, picky, and sometimes unreasonable.

Im part of that group too though:)

I somewhat agree with you. I have only played since VII so don't know anything before that. I recognise that what Square did with XII and XIII was them trying something knew, like they do with almost every FF game. I didn't mind XII, probably like it better than VII. It's only XIII I have a problem with, because while some other FF's have lacked certain elements, XIII lacks everything apart from graphics.

I don't think this will be their downfall though. They had a hard time with VIII, lots of people hated it, and IX wasn't so well recieved at the time either.

Xx..xX
 

JWick

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While I do think Final Fantasy is declining in its influence and appeal, I don't think that's coherent with saying that the game quality has declined. I think the 'downfall' can more accurately be attributed to the rise of Western RPGs, MMOs and the fact that there have only been 2 'real' FF games (XII, XIII) released in the last decade, with the other releases all being spinoffs or MMOs. Pre-2002 they were releasing mainseries FF games every one or two years, most of which became the best commercial RPGs of their respective years. Nowadays, the spinoffs revolve around capitalising upon pre-existing fandom rather than cultivating new fans, and the MMOs were lost causes in a WoW dominated market. That's where SE have gone wrong more than anything else.

I don't really agree with any of the points in the first post though. I always find it strange when people claim that 'Square Enix has become nothing more than a corporation and Final Fantasy is just a cashcow', as though that wasn't always the case. Their move into the MMO scene with FFXI was hardly inspired by WoW, seeing as FFXI was released 2 years earlier; they weren't jumping on a bandwagon, they're among the foremost innovators in the MMO market. Lastly, I don't understand why people are so critical of how FFVII was milked. Is it really that surprising that they recieved a lot of good feedback about the game and tried to expand upon it? That's the reason why FF has evolved into a series in the first place, because one game got good feedback. I can understand why you might not like the spinoffs as games, but it seems people try to justify their dislike by criticising SE's motives in the first place.

Just my 2 cents. I don't think SE's mentality to what it envisions its games to be has really changed a great deal, but I do think that FF has run into trouble as a result of questionable business planning above anything else.
 

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^ I can understand that but as I fan who grew up Final Fantasy and Square Enix RPGs, the recent games leave lot to be desired emotionally. I have nothign against modern and western RPGS but the thing I liked about Final Fantasy is that even though it was a Japanese RPG game, it had a certain magic to it that you don't find most titles. I am not sure if was the music, stories, characters, settings, gameplay or even monster designs but there was somethign about the games that got lost. Final Fantasy XIII was a good game but it didn't really feel like a final fantasy game but how a final fantasy game is supposed to 'feel' is more or less subjective. Square Enix has lost its edge with fans, Final Fantasy games having true sequels was considered to be unthinkable until Final Fantasy X-2 came out. The Final Fantasy VII is mroe or less being spat on Square Enix with the spinoffs.

The game didn't really need sequels or prequels but the spinoffs themselves didn't add anything to Final Fantasy VII either. As a fan, I just feel as though that the recent games are lacking in the same feel and emotion that I usually get from the games. Even the prior games didn't take themselves that seriously and allowed for some funny humor but it seems that somewhere along the line the same amgic just wasn't there anymore.
 

Sheechiibii

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To be honest I think they lost it when Squaresoft became SquareEnix, although 10 made it into my top 5 FF's 12 wasn't brilliant, I can tell this because I haven't bothered to finish it, whereas if I picked up 7,8,9, or 10 again I know I could dedicate 90+ hours any one of them again.

13 is pretty good in all respects but still lacks that raw charm of earlier FF's.

I think Square need to go back to their roots, try the materia system again, even if they made a remake of 7 through to 10 rather than digitally remastering JUST 10 or making up new characters and story surely they would still sell millions of copies.

I don't personally know a single FF fan that wouldn't want to see 7 or 9 redone and untouched with upgraded graphics.

Unfortunately this won't happen as Square probably don't think it would make them enough money or maybe they somehow don't own the rights to do pre 10 games because of the buyout?

When I was young I was proud to say that Square were my favourite game developers, whereas now I would have to say Bioware, which isn't a bad thing, but it's always sad when the people who use to make the best RPG's in the world, just don't cut it any more :(

X was done by Squaresoft, it was before they merged with Enix. So if they have the rights to remake X they should have the rights to the previous games too.

I agree that it's gone downhill since it became SquareEnix, the first one was X-2, which I enjoyed, but it isn't as good as the ones before it and since then they've got worse.

It's a sad thought as it means they probably won't get better. Enix is clearly shit and has brought Squaresoft down.

Xx..xX
 

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I don't know about calling it a downfall, but the only game that really stuck out to me as "bad" Final Fantasy game was XIII. I'm currently replaying it right now under different expectations, and it's actually a pretty decent game. The one thing that this series has been doing that's bad is that it's becoming more and more linear. The tradeoff, however, provides us increased character depth. Some people like it and some people don't. I'm one of those who don't really appreciate having to watch cutscenes every other minute. That doesn't mean I'm going to call the game trash. I do sort of agree that Enix appears to be responsible for the path that FF is on. I loved XII, but I concede to those who say that it doesn't carry the same excitement as the previous installments. Oh well, nothing we can do about it. Our only hope is that they remake/remaster the older games so that we can continue to enjoy what we grew up with.

^ sorry if that pile of text makes no sense. I was just typing whatever came to mind.
 

Starships

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It's a sad thought as it means they probably won't get better. Enix is clearly shit and has brought Squaresoft down.

Xx..xX


Yeah.... agree. It's Enix that's causing all the problems. Just look at the Dragon Quest games, they're fine. Which means that Enix is pulling the strings and are destroying Final Fantasy.... :sad3:

Square needs to dump Enix from their name and become a independent company again, because Enix is doing more damage than aid. Which is evil, considering that Enix and Square were rivals in the past... so did Enix plan this from the beginning of the merge ??


 

Sheechiibii

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I don't know about calling it a downfall, but the only game that really stuck out to me as "bad" Final Fantasy game was XIII. I'm currently replaying it right now under different expectations, and it's actually a pretty decent game. The one thing that this series has been doing that's bad is that it's becoming more and more linear. The tradeoff, however, provides us increased character depth. Some people like it and some people don't. I'm one of those who don't really appreciate having to watch cutscenes every other minute. That doesn't mean I'm going to call the game trash. I do sort of agree that Enix appears to be responsible for the path that FF is on. I loved XII, but I concede to those who say that it doesn't carry the same excitement as the previous installments. Oh well, nothing we can do about it. Our only hope is that they remake/remaster the older games so that we can continue to enjoy what we grew up with.

^ sorry if that pile of text makes no sense. I was just typing whatever came to mind.

You're right about them becoming more linear, but I don';t think there's an upside of the charactets having more depth. XIII and XII had the least character development of all the FF's. XII was the worst but XIII was also terrible as far as character depth and development was concerned. They remained the same all the way through the game, they just got more angry and frustrated, they didn't bond with each other or anything despite being stick together with the world against them. There was no change or development in them, regardless how many cutscenes there were. I wouldn't have minded linearity if it had given better story and characters, but it didn't and that's my problem.

XII wasn't so bad for me, because I loved the world, the gameplay, the battle system. The story and characters were lacking but the other parts made up for it. XIII has nothing good in it al all :( there's just nothing to like in the game for me. And so many people say that they sacrificed things for the story and characters, but I don't see how that's possible because the story and characters were as bad as the rest of the game.

Yeah.... agree. It's Enix that's causing all the problems. Just look at the Dragon Quest games, they're fine. Which means that Enix is pulling the strings and are destroying Final Fantasy.... :sad3:

Square needs to dump Enix from their name and become a independent company again, because Enix is doing more damage than aid. Which is evil, considering that Enix and Square were rivals in the past... so did Enix plan this from the beginning of the merge ??

I agree with you, they need to get rid of Enix. I don't think it's been done purposely, because the more money the Final Fantasy franchise makes the more money Enix gets since they're merged. I just think the production team are going the wrong way with these games, they're trying to be like everyone else, they seem scared of being original. But the reason I always loved the play Final Fantasy was because I could find no other games like them, they were unique and great and I miss them. I hope they drop Enix or just sort themselves out.

Xx..xX
 

C i d

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What exactly is this 'Enix' you are talking about? You people are using the word as if 'Enix' is a single person. As if everything in the world is black and white. What exactly do you think they should do to 'drop' Enix? Fire the staff who was from Enix? Does that solve everything? You do know that they will need to employ new people to replace them right? Who knows if these people are worse than the ones before? Those who were fired during the merger may not want to come back either, you know. And how are you even sure how the merger works? Did all Enix staff joined Square Enix? Or even none? Was it just about shares and taking over? It's not that simple. This is just a portion of possible problems they will encounter if they 'drop' Enix.

And please be informed that FFX-2 is made and finished before the merger between squaresoft and Enix.

Even though I still like the newer games, the older FFs are still better in my eyes. But I personally think that they should not undo the past, but work to improve themselves further, as some of you have said.
 

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While I do agree with everything you said in your rant, I disagree about one thing. Final Fantasy isn't over. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Versus will be the best in the series, so diehard fans (but not blind lol XIII and XIII-2 were less than garbage) like me are still hopeful!
 

Starships

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What exactly is this 'Enix' you are talking about? You people are using the word as if 'Enix' is a single person. As if everything in the world is black and white.


You do realize that Final Fantasy games were fine and decent the merge right ? Just look at the classics like FF VI, FF VII and FF IX and the games SquareEnix has made. FF XIII, DoC, FF 14. Which are all terrible, terrible games. I know that you actually enjoyed FF XIII but you have to admit that it's a huge downgrade in quality compared to past Final Fantasy games, like FF VII.

And no we're not speaking about Enix like it's a person. We're talking as Enix as a company that is not making the Final Fantasy series any better compared to when Square was just Squaresoft.

And please be informed that FFX-2 is made and finished before the merger between squaresoft and Enix.


Final Fantasy X-2 is a masterpiece compared to SquareEnix games like Dirge of Cerberus. Plus at that stage Square was desperate because of the Spirits Within movie failure, so don't blame them.


Even though I still like the newer games, the older FFs are still better in my eyes. But I personally think that they should not undo the past, but work to improve themselves further, as some of you have said.

I ... kind of agree, I'm enjoying XIII-2 though the other newer FF titles not so much, but yes, the older games are amazing and that's why we're blaming the Enix merge for the downfall. While XIII-2 does seem like a huge improvement, it's not as good as the old SquareSoft games.

Plus in Dissidia something is extremely wrong with Terra and Cloud's personalities. Why wouldn't Square know their own characters ? Something is wrong, you have to admit.
 

Martel

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I've been following this thread for a while now, and I just thought I'd point a few things that I've noticed in general:

FFXIII is not really any different to FFVII or FFX: it's the first Final Fantasy game on a new console. The sensationalism comes from the sparkly graphics and nothing else. But I would say that the same is true for every Final Fantasy since FFVI.

My personal opinion is that FFXIII was a horrendous step backwards, but I think the Final Fantasy series - like every other video game series - has been going downhill ever since the PS1 era, when the focus on delivering a solid and enjoyable experience shifted to making it as pretty as possible, because by some warped logic developers assumed that since consoles were becoming capable of better graphics, that was all that people wanted...or, at least, that seems to be the message most developers these days are sending, with Square Enix being right at the top of the list of them. FFVII and FFX are guilty of exactly the same crimes as FFXIII; providing an experience that shows how powerful a console is, and not the sort of experience we could have expected from video games of an earlier generation.

People look favourably upon games after FFVI, I think, mostly because the leap in graphics was far more profound at the time, so the diminished quality in those games is not quite so pronounced...and we were all a lot younger, so it all looked much more impressive to us. I'll admit that I was just as blown away by FFVII when I first saw it, and I think if I was the same age when FFXIII came out, I would have been equally as stunned by it; as it is, as uncaring as I am about visuals, I was still mildly impressed by how pretty they made it all look.

The leap from PS1 to PS2 was bigger than the leap between PS2 and PS3, I'll admit, but it was still there, and when you've experienced the first leap, the second is not quite so dramatic. It's not quite so impressive the second time around you see it and the older you get, and I wasn't all that impressed by the leap between the last generation and the current one, and the leap to the next generation will likely be even smaller. It'll keep getting smaller and, the more it does, the less forgiving people are going to be of the gameplay in the face of the visuals, because it'll become the norm for all games to have visuals like that. It already IS the norm in my opinion, but people just haven't noticed it yet, either because they haven't been playing video games long enough to spot the similarities between titles, or because they're still too busy being impressed by the visuals to care. Those that have are starting to complain about it...hence the creation of this thread.

Square Enix haven't delivered an original game since FFVI, back when the focus of games - and gamers - was on the gameplay. FFVII (and every FF game that has followed it) was NOT about the gameplay, it was about showing off how powerful the console was. Things just didn't seem as bad back then because not only had we not played as many Final Fantasy games back then, but because games were still a fairly "new" thing, both in terms of how the graphics were slowly becoming better, and how much we had played them. That's a generalisation, naturally, but I think a lot of people posting in this topic and complaining are the ones who started with FFVII or above, or were growing up in the era when gaming started to become more than just an obscure hobby some people had.

Criticising FFXIII is something I'll never disapprove of, but I think that every Final Fantasy game past VI is guilty of the same crimes as FFXIII, albeit to a slightly lesser extent, and I don't think that justifies them as being entirely excluded from rants about how the quality of the games has diminished over time, because they've directly led up to it, and they're not really all that good when you look at them from that sort of perspective.

The ideas have been copied over and over and OVER since the very first instalment, people are only NOW starting to notice because, not only have they seen these ideas so many times now that they're sick of them, but because what you might call the "graphics gap" between consoles is becoming smaller and smaller, and within the next two or three generations it'll be negligible, and then all hell is going to break loose.

FFVII and FFX were both popular during their time for the same reason as FFXIII, whether you think they're masterpieces or whatever is irrelevant: it was the huge leap in graphics that made them popular. If you examine them, they're pretty much the same idea as every other FF game that preceded them. FFXIII keeps up the trend perfectly, it is because it does this that it gets bashed into the ground. I said before FFXIII came out that linearity was something that has been around in JRPGs since the beginning, and I'll stand by that assessment: none of the other FF games have really been any less linear than FFXIII; the only difference between them was that FFXIII removed the ILLUSION of freedom by making you run in a straight line. That is all it was. A lot of the complaints thrown at FFXIII can be thrown at every JRPG that has been released both before and after it; the only difference is that people are noticing. People are noticing because they've been playing the games for so long, it's not some inherent flaw in the game that makes it worse. It's cynicism, age, and personal preference.

I'd say FFVII is what started the decline, and it was as much a victim of the times as FFXIII is. FFXIII only won't be remembered in the same fashion as VII and X by the majority in a decade or so because games are given more media coverage now than what they used to be, and the fanbase has grown. That is the ONLY reason FFXIII won't be given the same critical accolades: it's very hard to praise something when you've seen it so many times before. But that doesn't make the idea any better or worse, it just means you've gotten bored of it.

The people reviewing these games mostly grew up playing the ones before them, and nostalgia of the earlier games and is going to colour their thinking, just as it is anyone else's. I think if you introduced someone who had never played JRPGs before to FFXIII, they probably wouldn't find it that bad of a game, although it makes me shiver to think about how innocent they'd have to be to think that. But then, we were all once like that as well, when we played our first FF games.

People have grown more cynical as they've gotten older, and everything looks better in hindsight. That really is all it is. The source of the "problem" which is, generally speaking, the focus on graphics over gameplay (that seems to be people's foremost complaint of FFXIII; that the gameplay is lacking) started two generations ago. People are just now realising that it's a problem. It has nothing to do with mergers, or changing developers, or anything like that: people have just gotten bored of the same things being repeated over and over, with the variations so small that they're negligible in the long run. FFXIII is the PS3 equivalent of FFX, which was the PS2 equivalent of FFVII, which was when Final Fantasy stopped being about gameplay and started being about the flashy graphics that people so crave these days.

The "downfall" of Final Fantasy is the downfall of video gaming in general. Contrary to popular belief, things aren't getting any worse than what they used to be. They're just getting prettier. Otherwise, they're not changing at all. Familiarity breeds contempt, and it's only a matter of time before people get bored of seeing the same things over and over. I got bored of it years before this, and it isn't just the FF franchise I'm sick of.

But boredom does NOT mean things are getting worse. Just thought I'd point that out. Despite the fact that I despise FFXIII. But looking at it objectively, I would say that this is the problem. Take it or leave it. I expect most people will leave it, but whatever.
 

C i d

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You do realize that Final Fantasy games were fine and decent the merge right ? Just look at the classics like FF VI, FF VII and FF IX and the games SquareEnix has made. FF XIII, DoC, FF 14. Which are all terrible, terrible games. I know that you actually enjoyed FF XIII but you have to admit that it's a huge downgrade in quality compared to past Final Fantasy games, like FF VII.

And no we're not speaking about Enix like it's a person. We're talking as Enix as a company that is not making the Final Fantasy series any better compared to when Square was just Squaresoft.


[/COLOR][/FONT]

I think you misinterpreted what I said lol. I know that the series has not been as good since the merger. I know FFXIII is not a good FF game. I was actually trying to say that 'dropping' Enix as some of you mentioned, isn't going to solve anything. Was the decline in quality caused by the introduction of the NEW developers or the loss of the old developers? It could be a combination of both.

Yeah as we agreed too, SE should just try their best to improve for now.

Off-topic: I love your sig. Not really because it's an XIII-2 sig, but because it really has a great style! I like the text and how Hope's render is bright, while Noel's is dark.
 

Sheechiibii

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I've been following this thread for a while now, and I just thought I'd point a few things that I've noticed in general:

FFXIII is not really any different to FFVII or FFX: it's the first Final Fantasy game on a new console. The sensationalism comes from the sparkly graphics and nothing else. But I would say that the same is true for every Final Fantasy since FFVI.

My personal opinion is that FFXIII was a horrendous step backwards, but I think the Final Fantasy series - like every other video game series - has been going downhill ever since the PS1 era, when the focus on delivering a solid and enjoyable experience shifted to making it as pretty as possible, because by some warped logic developers assumed that since consoles were becoming capable of better graphics, that was all that people wanted...or, at least, that seems to be the message most developers these days are sending, with Square Enix being right at the top of the list of them. FFVII and FFX are guilty of exactly the same crimes as FFXIII; providing an experience that shows how powerful a console is, and not the sort of experience we could have expected from video games of an earlier generation.

People look favourably upon games after FFVI, I think, mostly because the leap in graphics was far more profound at the time, so the diminished quality in those games is not quite so pronounced...and we were all a lot younger, so it all looked much more impressive to us. I'll admit that I was just as blown away by FFVII when I first saw it, and I think if I was the same age when FFXIII came out, I would have been equally as stunned by it; as it is, as uncaring as I am about visuals, I was still mildly impressed by how pretty they made it all look.

The leap from PS1 to PS2 was bigger than the leap between PS2 and PS3, I'll admit, but it was still there, and when you've experienced the first leap, the second is not quite so dramatic. It's not quite so impressive the second time around you see it and the older you get, and I wasn't all that impressed by the leap between the last generation and the current one, and the leap to the next generation will likely be even smaller. It'll keep getting smaller and, the more it does, the less forgiving people are going to be of the gameplay in the face of the visuals, because it'll become the norm for all games to have visuals like that. It already IS the norm in my opinion, but people just haven't noticed it yet, either because they haven't been playing video games long enough to spot the similarities between titles, or because they're still too busy being impressed by the visuals to care. Those that have are starting to complain about it...hence the creation of this thread.

Square Enix haven't delivered an original game since FFVI, back when the focus of games - and gamers - was on the gameplay. FFVII (and every FF game that has followed it) was NOT about the gameplay, it was about showing off how powerful the console was. Things just didn't seem as bad back then because not only had we not played as many Final Fantasy games back then, but because games were still a fairly "new" thing, both in terms of how the graphics were slowly becoming better, and how much we had played them. That's a generalisation, naturally, but I think a lot of people posting in this topic and complaining are the ones who started with FFVII or above, or were growing up in the era when gaming started to become more than just an obscure hobby some people had.

Criticising FFXIII is something I'll never disapprove of, but I think that every Final Fantasy game past VI is guilty of the same crimes as FFXIII, albeit to a slightly lesser extent, and I don't think that justifies them as being entirely excluded from rants about how the quality of the games has diminished over time, because they've directly led up to it, and they're not really all that good when you look at them from that sort of perspective.

The ideas have been copied over and over and OVER since the very first instalment, people are only NOW starting to notice because, not only have they seen these ideas so many times now that they're sick of them, but because what you might call the "graphics gap" between consoles is becoming smaller and smaller, and within the next two or three generations it'll be negligible, and then all hell is going to break loose.

FFVII and FFX were both popular during their time for the same reason as FFXIII, whether you think they're masterpieces or whatever is irrelevant: it was the huge leap in graphics that made them popular. If you examine them, they're pretty much the same idea as every other FF game that preceded them. FFXIII keeps up the trend perfectly, it is because it does this that it gets bashed into the ground. I said before FFXIII came out that linearity was something that has been around in JRPGs since the beginning, and I'll stand by that assessment: none of the other FF games have really been any less linear than FFXIII; the only difference between them was that FFXIII removed the ILLUSION of freedom by making you run in a straight line. That is all it was. A lot of the complaints thrown at FFXIII can be thrown at every JRPG that has been released both before and after it; the only difference is that people are noticing. People are noticing because they've been playing the games for so long, it's not some inherent flaw in the game that makes it worse. It's cynicism, age, and personal preference.

I'd say FFVII is what started the decline, and it was as much a victim of the times as FFXIII is. FFXIII only won't be remembered in the same fashion as VII and X by the majority in a decade or so because games are given more media coverage now than what they used to be, and the fanbase has grown. That is the ONLY reason FFXIII won't be given the same critical accolades: it's very hard to praise something when you've seen it so many times before. But that doesn't make the idea any better or worse, it just means you've gotten bored of it.

The people reviewing these games mostly grew up playing the ones before them, and nostalgia of the earlier games and is going to colour their thinking, just as it is anyone else's. I think if you introduced someone who had never played JRPGs before to FFXIII, they probably wouldn't find it that bad of a game, although it makes me shiver to think about how innocent they'd have to be to think that. But then, we were all once like that as well, when we played our first FF games.

People have grown more cynical as they've gotten older, and everything looks better in hindsight. That really is all it is. The source of the "problem" which is, generally speaking, the focus on graphics over gameplay (that seems to be people's foremost complaint of FFXIII; that the gameplay is lacking) started two generations ago. People are just now realising that it's a problem. It has nothing to do with mergers, or changing developers, or anything like that: people have just gotten bored of the same things being repeated over and over, with the variations so small that they're negligible in the long run. FFXIII is the PS3 equivalent of FFX, which was the PS2 equivalent of FFVII, which was when Final Fantasy stopped being about gameplay and started being about the flashy graphics that people so crave these days.

The "downfall" of Final Fantasy is the downfall of video gaming in general. Contrary to popular belief, things aren't getting any worse than what they used to be. They're just getting prettier. Otherwise, they're not changing at all. Familiarity breeds contempt, and it's only a matter of time before people get bored of seeing the same things over and over. I got bored of it years before this, and it isn't just the FF franchise I'm sick of.

But boredom does NOT mean things are getting worse. Just thought I'd point that out. Despite the fact that I despise FFXIII. But looking at it objectively, I would say that this is the problem. Take it or leave it. I expect most people will leave it, but whatever.

I can't say that I agree or disagree that they've gotten worse since going to ps, because I haven't played I - VI. But I think you're wrong to say that the impressive graphics are why people like VII to X. I for one started playing games on the PS2, I started with X and played the other, older ff's after that, so the visuals in them were worse than what I was used to. I loved the games for their gameplay, for their storyline, for their in-depth worlds and their summons and sidequests.

You say if people lookat things from the perspective of flashy graphics hiding bad things we'll see the games are bad, but for me, and I'm sure for others, the graphics were never a factor. I can say this objectively, because I actually downgraded in the quality of graphics I was playing and it didn't make a difference.

FFXIII is the only FF I have disliked.

Xx..xX
 

Grimer

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I've been following this thread for a while now, and I just thought I'd point a few things that I've noticed in general:

FFXIII is not really any different to FFVII or FFX: it's the first Final Fantasy game on a new console. The sensationalism comes from the sparkly graphics and nothing else. But I would say that the same is true for every Final Fantasy since FFVI.

My personal opinion is that FFXIII was a horrendous step backwards, but I think the Final Fantasy series - like every other video game series - has been going downhill ever since the PS1 era, when the focus on delivering a solid and enjoyable experience shifted to making it as pretty as possible, because by some warped logic developers assumed that since consoles were becoming capable of better graphics, that was all that people wanted...or, at least, that seems to be the message most developers these days are sending, with Square Enix being right at the top of the list of them. FFVII and FFX are guilty of exactly the same crimes as FFXIII; providing an experience that shows how powerful a console is, and not the sort of experience we could have expected from video games of an earlier generation.

People look favourably upon games after FFVI, I think, mostly because the leap in graphics was far more profound at the time, so the diminished quality in those games is not quite so pronounced...and we were all a lot younger, so it all looked much more impressive to us. I'll admit that I was just as blown away by FFVII when I first saw it, and I think if I was the same age when FFXIII came out, I would have been equally as stunned by it; as it is, as uncaring as I am about visuals, I was still mildly impressed by how pretty they made it all look.

The leap from PS1 to PS2 was bigger than the leap between PS2 and PS3, I'll admit, but it was still there, and when you've experienced the first leap, the second is not quite so dramatic. It's not quite so impressive the second time around you see it and the older you get, and I wasn't all that impressed by the leap between the last generation and the current one, and the leap to the next generation will likely be even smaller. It'll keep getting smaller and, the more it does, the less forgiving people are going to be of the gameplay in the face of the visuals, because it'll become the norm for all games to have visuals like that. It already IS the norm in my opinion, but people just haven't noticed it yet, either because they haven't been playing video games long enough to spot the similarities between titles, or because they're still too busy being impressed by the visuals to care. Those that have are starting to complain about it...hence the creation of this thread.

Square Enix haven't delivered an original game since FFVI, back when the focus of games - and gamers - was on the gameplay. FFVII (and every FF game that has followed it) was NOT about the gameplay, it was about showing off how powerful the console was. Things just didn't seem as bad back then because not only had we not played as many Final Fantasy games back then, but because games were still a fairly "new" thing, both in terms of how the graphics were slowly becoming better, and how much we had played them. That's a generalisation, naturally, but I think a lot of people posting in this topic and complaining are the ones who started with FFVII or above, or were growing up in the era when gaming started to become more than just an obscure hobby some people had.

Criticising FFXIII is something I'll never disapprove of, but I think that every Final Fantasy game past VI is guilty of the same crimes as FFXIII, albeit to a slightly lesser extent, and I don't think that justifies them as being entirely excluded from rants about how the quality of the games has diminished over time, because they've directly led up to it, and they're not really all that good when you look at them from that sort of perspective.

The ideas have been copied over and over and OVER since the very first instalment, people are only NOW starting to notice because, not only have they seen these ideas so many times now that they're sick of them, but because what you might call the "graphics gap" between consoles is becoming smaller and smaller, and within the next two or three generations it'll be negligible, and then all hell is going to break loose.

FFVII and FFX were both popular during their time for the same reason as FFXIII, whether you think they're masterpieces or whatever is irrelevant: it was the huge leap in graphics that made them popular. If you examine them, they're pretty much the same idea as every other FF game that preceded them. FFXIII keeps up the trend perfectly, it is because it does this that it gets bashed into the ground. I said before FFXIII came out that linearity was something that has been around in JRPGs since the beginning, and I'll stand by that assessment: none of the other FF games have really been any less linear than FFXIII; the only difference between them was that FFXIII removed the ILLUSION of freedom by making you run in a straight line. That is all it was. A lot of the complaints thrown at FFXIII can be thrown at every JRPG that has been released both before and after it; the only difference is that people are noticing. People are noticing because they've been playing the games for so long, it's not some inherent flaw in the game that makes it worse. It's cynicism, age, and personal preference.

I'd say FFVII is what started the decline, and it was as much a victim of the times as FFXIII is. FFXIII only won't be remembered in the same fashion as VII and X by the majority in a decade or so because games are given more media coverage now than what they used to be, and the fanbase has grown. That is the ONLY reason FFXIII won't be given the same critical accolades: it's very hard to praise something when you've seen it so many times before. But that doesn't make the idea any better or worse, it just means you've gotten bored of it.

The people reviewing these games mostly grew up playing the ones before them, and nostalgia of the earlier games and is going to colour their thinking, just as it is anyone else's. I think if you introduced someone who had never played JRPGs before to FFXIII, they probably wouldn't find it that bad of a game, although it makes me shiver to think about how innocent they'd have to be to think that. But then, we were all once like that as well, when we played our first FF games.

People have grown more cynical as they've gotten older, and everything looks better in hindsight. That really is all it is. The source of the "problem" which is, generally speaking, the focus on graphics over gameplay (that seems to be people's foremost complaint of FFXIII; that the gameplay is lacking) started two generations ago. People are just now realising that it's a problem. It has nothing to do with mergers, or changing developers, or anything like that: people have just gotten bored of the same things being repeated over and over, with the variations so small that they're negligible in the long run. FFXIII is the PS3 equivalent of FFX, which was the PS2 equivalent of FFVII, which was when Final Fantasy stopped being about gameplay and started being about the flashy graphics that people so crave these days.

The "downfall" of Final Fantasy is the downfall of video gaming in general. Contrary to popular belief, things aren't getting any worse than what they used to be. They're just getting prettier. Otherwise, they're not changing at all. Familiarity breeds contempt, and it's only a matter of time before people get bored of seeing the same things over and over. I got bored of it years before this, and it isn't just the FF franchise I'm sick of.

But boredom does NOT mean things are getting worse. Just thought I'd point that out. Despite the fact that I despise FFXIII. But looking at it objectively, I would say that this is the problem. Take it or leave it. I expect most people will leave it, but whatever.

you might be onto something
thinking-023.GIF
, seems like every FF is "group of oddballs save the world"






nip5.gif
 

Tifa

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you might be onto something
thinking-023.GIF
, seems like every FF is "group of oddballs save the world"






nip5.gif
That's generally the premise of the entire FF series though. It stretches all the way back to the very first game and is in every FF game, including the spin offs. Not so much in DoC, but that game is pretty bad anyways and it's a DMC wannabe imo. ^^;
 

Grimer

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That's generally the premise of the entire FF series though. It stretches all the way back to the very first game and is in every FF game, including the spin offs. Not so much in DoC, but that game is pretty bad anyways and it's a DMC wannabe imo. ^^;

For some reason though I don't seem to mind. If you think about it just about all stories are related(im talking in general terms, not just final fantasy). As long as they can tell the story differently and have different types of characters i think i have enough steam for 5 more FF's(as in the main series, not spinoffs)

and i agree, Dirge of Cerebus or whatever it was sucked. They need to leave FF7 alone and move on from that universe.
 

JasonsBasement

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FFVII and FFX were both popular during their time for the same reason as FFXIII, whether you think they're masterpieces or whatever is irrelevant: it was the huge leap in graphics that made them popular. If you examine them, they're pretty much the same idea as every other FF game that preceded them. FFXIII keeps up the trend perfectly, it is because it does this that it gets bashed into the ground. I said before FFXIII came out that linearity was something that has been around in JRPGs since the beginning, and I'll stand by that assessment: none of the other FF games have really been any less linear than FFXIII; the only difference between them was that FFXIII removed the ILLUSION of freedom by making you run in a straight line. That is all it was. A lot of the complaints thrown at FFXIII can be thrown at every JRPG that has been released both before and after it; the only difference is that people are noticing. People are noticing because they've been playing the games for so long, it's not some inherent flaw in the game that makes it worse. It's cynicism, age, and personal preference.


Hitting the nail on the head right here.
FFXIII is almost a carbon copy of the layout of FFX. Think about it, you show up in Besaid and then you just follow dots on a map - ON A MAP. Tons of the environments in FFX are just straight lines. The linear aspect of Final Fantasy has always been there, they just gave you the appearance of having free reign. Even the holy temples of Final Fantasy games, VII - You spend like 5 hours or so stuck in Midgar, then when you finally get out you have two options of places to go: Kalm or the Chocobo farm. Sure, you can run around all you want on the map. You could level till your hearts content, but you still can't progress the game without walking down the hall to the the Chocobo Farm.
I'm not standing up for FFXIII - It pissed me right the hell off. But I don't complain about its linear aspect, cause that has ALWAYS been there.
 

Sheechiibii

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Hitting the nail on the head right here.
FFXIII is almost a carbon copy of the layout of FFX. Think about it, you show up in Besaid and then you just follow dots on a map - ON A MAP. Tons of the environments in FFX are just straight lines. The linear aspect of Final Fantasy has always been there, they just gave you the appearance of having free reign. Even the holy temples of Final Fantasy games, VII - You spend like 5 hours or so stuck in Midgar, then when you finally get out you have two options of places to go: Kalm or the Chocobo farm. Sure, you can run around all you want on the map. You could level till your hearts content, but you still can't progress the game without walking down the hall to the the Chocobo Farm.
I'm not standing up for FFXIII - It pissed me right the hell off. But I don't complain about its linear aspect, cause that has ALWAYS been there.

You're right. But when I complain about the linearity it's not just in the sense of walking a straight line, it's the fact you cannot go back. In all the other FF's at any point you could go back to pretty much anywhere you had been, you weren't walking down a corridor locking the doors behind you.

Xx..xX
 
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