Squalls Death

Savader

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Here we go...

Okay - I'm gonna blow this theory out of the water. At first, I was seriously on board with the "Squall is dead" theory, but now, I'm not so sure...I have to admit that shit does get a little weird real fast after disc one, and nothing ever really adds up as to what happened to Squall after he falls from the parade float, but here is the proof that Squall didn't die, and the funny thing is, it's right at the beginning of the entire game -

In the beginning of the game, right where you start playing, and Squall is laying in the infirmary, Ellone says from behind the glass by his bed "Long time no see, Squall." - or something like that - and that there proves that she has met him sometime in her past, such as, when they were both in the same orphanage as kids! If that whole part where Squall went back in time to find out that all of the main characters - including him, grew up in the same orphanage was just a part of Squall's "dying dream", then how do you explain Ellone remembering Squall in the first disc BEFORE he supposedly died?

That right there pretty much proves that he did in fact grow up in the same orphanage as the rest of the characters. Therefore, what happened after disc one, did in fact really happen. Tell me what you guys think of all this. I think that it's pretty concrete...I mean, I suppose that the part where Squall remembers everyone from his childhood, could just be another part of Squall's dying dream - only, a real memory - BUT, didn't all of the younger characters talk to the grown up version of Squall? That is to say; future Squall? But then again, I guess that all the others would have remembered him too, and not just Ellone, but then how DID she remember him in the beginning of the game? Either she remembered him because of her weird time-travel powers, or she remembered him from her childhood, and yet, no one else did. If it was because of her powers, then it means that Squall didn't die. If she remembered him from her childhood, then it's possible he did die, and that part at the end with the younger characters was just a memory of Squall's, but then how do you explain the others not remembering him, like Ellone?

Now, obviously, the reason why the characters lost their memories was do to GF junctioning, but who tells him this? Irvine - after disc one - SO, how did Squall learn about this fact, if he was dead?

I want to explore this theory of mine, so tell me what you all think. I am currently playing through the game again, since it's been years since I last played it...anyway, tell me what you people think of this.
 

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This discussion AGAIN? -__-

Not to turn this into a debate about the quality of the story of FF8, but:

1. How they survived the ice missile is not explained.
Nuff said on that.


2. The entire party just happened to be from the same orphanage, and Edea / Cid were the matron / patron.
IMO this is an "oh shit, we really should add some back-story to these characters so that the entire game isn't just a bunch of random dudes and dudettes who have to save the world JUST CAUSE!".

Compare that level of back-story to the level of back-story of FF9, for instance. Or hell, even FF7, even FF7 pre-spinoffs and added lore (which in its own doesn't make sense, but that's an argument for another day in another thread).

1. You must have missed the part when the heroes arrived in Fisherman's Horizon or the part where Selphie's team at the base fought a Galbadian tank before the missiles hit. It's mentioned in Fisherman's Horizon that Selphie's team jacked the tank right before the missiles blew the base to hell. It's in the tank they survived, and it's after you destroy the tank in Fisherman's Horizon do they escape from it.

2. I hated that whole coincidence thing but this game in particular is supposed to deal with fate, etc and coincidences can happen like that, although it's extremely rare. But the game wasn't all bad.

Now for the thread discussion, it's like this: The battle with Edea at the end with the ice is her limit break. Once you weaken her she uses it, thus explaining her use of it during the parade when you whoop her ass. Now UNLIKE FFVII cutscenes you can't die from attacks like that in FMVs the same way you can die from bullets within the game. The same rules of mortality in the gameplay of the game is also applied to the FMV battles as well. So all in all, it was just magic. There's no complicated explanation >.> He just got K.O.d from Edea's limit break, period.
 

Savader

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Nevermind...

I take back what I said earlier...

I've decided to just say, 'screw it', I think he's alive, not dead. Here's my newest argument and the comment on another site that sprung it out of me - this person replied to the same thing I said on this site.


Nah, not really. The idea is that those things are random and unexplained. Like there's a real reason why "Ellone" implied such things but we'll never know what it is.

And really there is no evidence that Squall's Dead isn't true at all. There can't be. A dream world can do whatever it wants, be as consistent with reality as it wants, etc etc. The only thing you can really do is criticize the proposed evidence that it is true.


And by the way, my own criticisms thereof:


1. Radical changes in the game world between disc1 and disc2.

If you pay close attention, they're not so radical after all. The lunar cry (monsters coming from the moon) is explicitly mentioned by name in the terminal in the 2F classroom of Balamb Garden, and that information is available from the start of the game. The quick repair of the city of Dollet actually takes place before the transition to disc 2, as you can revisit the city before the assassination attempt and the city is good as new. The flying garden is explained as an ancient mobile structure in the classroom terminal as well, though I'm not sure if that information can be accessed on disc 1. GF and the monsters you fight are magical mystical creatures that are present from the start.

2. Sudden Romanticization of the plot.

Between disc 1 and disc 2, "suddenly" Squall becomes the unquestioned hero, Seifer becomes the unquestioned villain, Rinoa becomes the unquestioned love interest, choosing him over Seifer immediately. Some of these are not so sudden, some of these are sudden but understandably so.

Squall has a steady rise to the role of hero. He begins as Quistis' best student but a grunt in Squad B. (Why they would put Seifer in charge I don't know. Maybe the captain was randomly selected.) Shortly after beginning, Squall is noted for his performance in the exam and promoted to a SeeD, which only happens to a few of the candidates, so he's already one of the best of the best in the Garden. He is then selected to be the leader of his new Squad (doubtful that it would be at random for an actual mission of importance). Squall's leadership ability begins to show during this time. Shortly afterward, he is assigned (largely out of convenience) to the tremendous task of leading the assassination on the Sorceress, and does what he can to succeed, even at (nearly or complete, depending on whether you agree with Squall's dead) cost of his own life. And this is all in disc 1. It wasn't some grand Deus ex machina that suddenly everyone considers him the great leader; he earned their respect over the course of the game. Considering all this (and his actions in freeing the Garden from the rule of the Garden Master) it's understandable why Cid would choose him to lead the Garden.


Rinoa's role as Squall's love interest isn't so sudden either. Rinoa and Squall are at odds with one another to begin with, true. But this is a totally common way for a love story to begin. And she does soften up to him well before disc 2 begins. Just after the second Laguna sequence, Rinoa begins to apologize for being a jerk, and really from that point on there is no negativity between them. As Squall begins to develop his role as the hero, Rinoa begins growing fonder of him--as is understandable, since strength and heroics are traits that Seifer has from the beginning and Squall develops. By the end of disc 1, Squall has saved Rinoa's life and Rinoa clings to him as a strong hero. At this point she shows she has feelings for both of them when Squall brings up the possibility of he and Seifer fighting to the death. She doesn't choose a side; she just asks if they're both prepared. Since strength and heroics are qualities that attract her, her dwindling feelings for Seifer are tied to Seifer's rising role as the villain. There's a new hero in town--Squall.


Seifer does suddenly become the villain. In terms of narrative, that is very much true. Though it's completely understandable. He attacked Squall, and he stood in the way of the mission's success. There is never any question that the sorceress is evil, yet he defends her. This is far beyond any jerk behavior that he had ever exhibited before. He was helping an evil sorceress with global ambitions conquer the nation of Galbadia. This takes place on disc 1. It is understandable why our party's opinions on him would change so drastically beginning in disc 2. He has secured for himself the role of the villain's right-hand man, and it's a role that the SeeDs are raised to oppose and that clashes with Rinoa's taste for heroics. In terms of Seifer's actual character, the change from general jerk to villain may not have been so sudden. It has been a while since he last appeared in the narrative, and there's no telling how quickly he took to being the sorceress' knight.


3. Fate.

Squall is--at the end of disc 1--a firm believer that everything is relative. There is no good, there is no evil; only people trying to accomplish opposing goals. It is doubtful that he thinks anything of the concept of fate. But that really makes it harder to believe that a world that only exists in his mind--the "dream world" that he may construct to resolve his unexplained questions--would be so heavily rooted in the concepts of fate and good vs evil.

4. Orphanage revelation: come on, that's hilarious and you know it. It's really not as unlikely as you might think either. They're all orphans, all raised by the lady who cofounded garden. Especially seeing as Garden is like the only school system in the world, AND it's a place that will supply a home and food to kids, it's understandable to think that the orphans would all end up in one of them. And since they were raised by the cofounder of Garden, I can see why they would exhibit the values that would cause them to shine as students there.


5. Other odds and ends.


The Sorceress may have revived Squall because he was the squad leader.

She doesn't know any of them (not while possessed by Ultimecia anyway),
so it seems only natural that she would interrogate the leader instead
of some chick with a whip. Seifer likely didn't tell her that Quistis
would know more because Squall is the guy he loves to hate. No wound?
Magical healing, magical injury, magical magic. A wizard (or sorceress)
did it.


My reply -


Hmm...yeah, you're correct, now that I think about it...it's been so long since I last played this game, so I actually got some areas of information incorrect...but I like your thoughts on this subject though. They are very clear, intellectually driven, and make sense. But, as you said, there is no way to truly know for sure. But, for now, I'm siding with you. Everything you mentioned makes just as much sense as most of the 'evidence' that was presented towards the 'Squall is dead' theory.

As for the "areas of information" that I mentioned above, I of course mean, how everyone but Ellone lost their memories of their childhood. It turns out(and I remember now too), that Irvine tells Squall about how GFs are junctioned where memories are in the human brain, and after continual use, they tend to make you lose your memories...this is referenced in Selphie's diary on the school terminal as well, and is available on disc one, but it was never truly confirmed until after. So, this could also be another false fact that Squall simply 'thought up' for the sake of rationalizing everything in his 'dream'.


We really don't know what exactly happened, and I really don't think we ever will. We can only logically guess...I believe that he didn't die. I agree with what 'Somebody' had typed, and I also find it hard to believe that Square Soft(at the time) would sneak the true plot of the game in so far under our noses, we couldn't tell if there was a hidden plot...if he truly did die at the end of disc one, then I would think that they would have jumped back to showing Squall falling off of the parade float, dead, and possibly hitting the ground--right after 'the sound of a sword clashing, and Squall lets his head hang back' in the weird flashback scene, all for the dramatic reaction of the player. Once seeing that, we'd be like, "Holy shit! So he actually died back then, and everything after that was just a dream!? Wow...so I guess that this was Squall's 'Final Fantasy'...". After that, they could have showed what really happened after he died. Maybe, Rinoa and the others rushing to his body, or a funeral or something--supposing that they escaped Edea...


Overall, if Square Enix doesn't clear it up in the future some time, we'll never know, because we didn't write the story, and we can't get the answer out of who did. All we can do is speculate. It's annoying--aggravating even. But, if they choose not to explain, then there's nothing we can do about it. But, in conclusion, I think that to really believe in this theory, we should also take into account the 'Rinoa is Ultimecia' theory. There are a lot of things in just that theory alone, that could aide in proving this one. I don't really want to get into it--besides, I'm assuming that most of you have already been there, done that, am I right? Either way, both theories are very interesting to think about.


Oh yeah, and I highly doubt that Squall is dead - that's my final opinion on the matter. I've gone back-and-forth so much, I need to just pick a side...so, I'm picking this one. I of course leave room for enlightenment on the theory of him being dead. It's very possible. But until there is some real damning evidence(obviously, I didn't do to well, and got ahead of myself earlier), or the original writer(s)/team that worked on Final Fantasy VIII comes out of the shadows and tells us full on, what really happened--whether he's dead or alive, I'm sticking to the original idea of the plot--which is, 'everything that happened, did in fact really happen'. Thanks again, 'Somebody'. And long live Final Fantasy!! Even if their stories do sometimes mind rape us....
 

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I think the real question here is how Edea can survive bring slashed with a gunblade, shot, hit with a projectile, a dog, and various magical attacks. She's probably just a figment of their imagination, conjured up by Headmaster Cid to make men out of boys. When I read this theory I nearly died laughing. Seriously???
EDIT: P.S. and Headmaster Cid is actually Hyne.
 

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Ok I'm going say this... HOW WOULD ANYONE IN REAL LIFE SURVIVE HALF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS IN VIDEO GAMES?

Now that I'm done yelling... I mean you have to realize this is a video game... We don't play them for real life stuff... I mean we play them for the fantasy of the game right? I'm not going pick up any game that has fantasy and sci fi and expect it to be realistic at all.. So does Squall die? No, no real proof of this too much stipulation and Square would of wanted you to know if Squall was dead at the end of disk one...
 

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On top of that, how could Squall "dream" the events that happened when he wasn't there, i.e. Selphie's mission to the missile base, Rinoa and Irvine in the car escaping from D-District prison. And even on top of that, why would he keep dreaming of dreaming about Laguna? Is that a dream within a dream within a dream?? What the heck is this, Inception?! Surely if Squall was "dreaming" up everything after his supposed death it would only have scenes involving him? If the entire dream hinged on his subconscious need to become a hero, why did he accept the "leader of Garden" role with such trepidation? My final point: how the **** can you dream if you're dead?
 
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Squall getting skewered for me was just a "wow, he's a tough bastard" moment that I thought nothing about later. I mean, maybe there was something we missed? Gah, now I have to go back and play it again.
 

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Squall getting skewered for me was just a "wow, he's a tough bastard" moment that I thought nothing about later. I mean, maybe there was something we missed? Gah, now I have to go back and play it again.
Oh damn. I think I too may need to play it again also... It makes for a good excuse anyway :D

Squall can't be dead. If he was the devs would have made it a big major part of the game, like Aerith's death. They wouldn't just leave everyone guessing 10 years later...
 
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Oh damn. I think I too may need to play it again also... It makes for a good excuse anyway :D

Squall can't be dead. If he was the devs would have made it a big major part of the game, like Aerith's death. They wouldn't just leave everyone guessing 10 years later...
I know right? Someone said it could have been an illusion too which would make sense too I suppose. But someone should ask SE lol.
 

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Yea, there's no way that they'd leave such a huge part of the game to be such a trivial/skeptical thing. And yes, someone should ask SE :D
 
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Yea, there's no way that they'd leave such a huge part of the game to be such a trivial/skeptical thing. And yes, someone should ask SE :D
Well it has to be one or the other. I mean, killing off Squall would have been like killing Cloud. You can't do that. Take out the main protagonist and what do you have.....? NOTHING!
 
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As someone said earlier, some people are reading in way too much on these things. Fans are masters in finding plot holes just because they want to make a somewhat simple story, more complicated.
 
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As someone said earlier, some people are reading in way too much on these things. Fans are masters in finding plot holes just because they want to make a somewhat simple story, more complicated.
Yeah of course lots of real fans do that. But SE has also always been good and hiding things within a plot or making it so that fans have to think really hard to understand what's going on. I believe Squall's "death" is just one of those things.
 

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Considering that Edea was a sorceress, and she wanted information out of Squall, I think it's fairly obvious that she'd have brought him back with 'life'. Don't think we necessarily needed that spoon-feeding to us did we?



I could not agree more! I mean, how could you possibly ask for that kind of detail from the writers if you have been reviving your allies with Phoenix Down and Life?
 

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As someone said earlier, some people are reading in way too much on these things. Fans are masters in finding plot holes just because they want to make a somewhat simple story, more complicated.

This.

Square enjoys teasing the player with alleged character deaths anyway that turn out to be false (from
Celes Chere
to even
Balthier
) and Squall wasn't their first attempt at it anyway. As any writer would probably wish to do, they impaled Squall in order to drag out the tension over the transition from Disc 1 to Disc 2 and everything that happens afterwards in the cell until they finally show Squall alive and (sort of) well again. And this tactic did work. I couldn't believe they actually did this to the protagonist let alone a main character this early on this the game. It completely grabbed my attention even if the whole "assassinate the Sorceress" mission was already exciting enough, and never has a disc change ever felt this tense and exciting.

As someone rightly said, there are a lot of discrepancies with Final Fantasy, from taking only one impalement to do away with Aerith to impossibly long drops from above that end with the characters hardly taking much of a scratch at all. Discrepancies are also there when it comes to magic. No one thinks of casting Full-Life whenever other Final Fantasy characters actually do genuinely die, yet Selphie tried to cast Cure on Zell in the Galbadia Desert Prison all of a sudden? So is the magic used in combat actually canon with everything outside of battle now or not? It's unclear from time to time, but this appears to apply to FFVIII. So either Edea didn't actually plan on killing him directly here and now, or someone did cast Full-Life on him.
 
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This.

Square enjoys teasing the player with alleged character deaths anyway that turn out to be false (from
Celes Chere
to even
Balthier
) and Squall wasn't their first attempt at it anyway. As any writer would probably wish to do, they impaled Squall in order to drag out the tension over the transition from Disc 1 to Disc 2 and everything that happens afterwards in the cell until they finally show Squall alive and (sort of) well again. And this tactic did work. I couldn't believe they actually did this to the protagonist let alone a main character this early on this the game. It completely grabbed my attention even if the whole "assassinate the Sorceress" mission was already exciting enough, and never has a disc change ever felt this tense and exciting.

As someone rightly said, there are a lot of discrepancies with Final Fantasy, from taking only one impalement to do away with Aerith to impossibly long drops from above that end with the characters hardly taking much of a scratch at all. Discrepancies are also there when it comes to magic. No one thinks of casting Full-Life whenever other Final Fantasy characters actually do genuinely die, yet Selphie tried to cast Cure on Zell in the Galbadia Desert Prison all of a sudden? So is the magic used in combat actually canon with everything outside of battle now or not? It's unclear from time to time, but this appears to apply to FFVIII. So either Edea didn't actually plan on killing him directly here and now, or someone did cast Full-Life on him.
Some good points about magic there. I think everyone truly does wonder why you couldn't just use some cure spells or something to help a fallen comrade. But that would make everything just too easy. So saying that some magic is cannon to what would actually happen would make sense. I think so anyway.
 

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One thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that magic like Life and Full-Life or items like Phoenix Down don't bring characters back from 'death' they bring them back from 'KO' status.
Even the magic 'Death' doesn't actually 'Kill' it deals instant 'KO'

I doubt that because they can cast life or throw a phoenix down suddenly everyone is impervious to death. Wouldn't there be a massive population crisis?
 
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One thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that magic like Life and Full-Life or items like Phoenix Down don't bring characters back from 'death' they bring them back from 'KO' status.
Even the magic 'Death' doesn't actually 'Kill' it deals instant 'KO'

I doubt that because they can cast life or throw a phoenix down suddenly everyone is impervious to death. Wouldn't there be a massive population crisis?
:ryan: Ya know I've often thought the same thing. The human populous would be greatly affected.
 
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