Guys thinking vs Girls thinking..

[Shu]

You mods are going to hate me for ever creating this thread, but let's do a gender studies debate. I want to hear folks opinions as well as debate a bit, but please be nice on the mods and try to keep it civil. I want the ability for you ladies and gents to take sides on this and try to make folks understand, where you may be coming from.

My obvious intent on this thread is to try to explain to myself why I think the way I think, and maybe I'm just jaded. I feel like a thread like this was created before, though I can't put my finger on it.

I sincerely no matter how hard I break it down, women and men when they think are totally different. It's hard to read in between the lines, but I've always had a feeling that we were all the same, but the other day I had epiphany that no matter what, in the end.. we are different chemically.

Granted we have women that are masculine, and men that are though of as feminine, but that's just prejudice thinking. Any man that has the ability to step aside and weep, I respect, we aren't all drones unless of course he is excessive.

Let me list a few examples, and please... do prove me wrong:

1) Drama - What is it about this addictive drug that most women, even if they deny it like a little bit of it just to keep them entertained? I've seen some men sometimes cause it, but it's more of a up close and personal feel. When women do it, sometimes I exclaim to myself... "Damn", how calculated/mathematically planned out do you have to be to totally get off on drama. I've always wanted to call it a deficiency, but it's hard to say that, when I've seen it soooooo much. Granted guys can be back handed and a bit weak.. but I've never really seen someone do the amount of mental obstacles as men.

2) Resolving conflict - How hard is it for a guy to get over they are wrong with another guy? Meh, maybe a physical smack on the head, or just a kick to the balls? Seriously though, when one girl crosses another.. sometimes I feel like the conflict will always be held above their heads until the end of time. Grudges, regrets, defects start to spike and start to flow into their relationships later on.

3) Vanity - Personally I think every person is vane. Though the amounts and degrees are dependent. I want to call this more of a female trait, just because of the amount of guys I know that lack sanitary habits are huge. I have a friend who admitted he didn't shower for 4-5 days, and to top it off he has a pretty decent looking girlfriend. She on the other hand.. wow. She probably takes 3-4 hours getting ready, fixing her no bleed make up, and dressing either 1) like she's ready for sex 2) she's going out to a club. I have a hard time being around her, due to my wife has jealousy fits.

4) Jealousy - Um. Boys just want to go fast. Men want to have something for himself and be better off. Girls.. dream their whole lives. When their dreams don't work out.. they try to get with a guy/girl. Guys measure their jealousy on the amount of money they have and physical possessions. Ladies measure their jealousy on the amount of stuff they are able to get, the ways they can doll themselves up to a standard no other woman can, to always have their own different look.. when guys look at each other and go.. meh. Not once have I ever been jealous of a man and the way he looks.

5) Games - Yes men are a bit more "contact" oriented when it comes down to it. We love to body slam folks through walls, go faster than before, or see blood etc.. and yes I know some women do. I also think all men have natural blood lust.

Though this is just a rough format (even if it is a post). So let's here it, do we think differently?

 

[Captain Squee]

1) Drama - What is it about this addictive drug that most women, even if they deny it like a little bit of it just to keep them entertained? I've seen some men sometimes cause it, but it's more of a up close and personal feel. When women do it, sometimes I exclaim to myself... "Damn", how calculated/mathematically planned out do you have to be to totally get off on drama. I've always wanted to call it a deficiency, but it's hard to say that, when I've seen it soooooo much. Granted guys can be back handed and a bit weak.. but I've never really seen someone do the amount of mental obstacles as men.

Absolutely agreed here. I was raised and grew up with only girls in my life, so I see they way they did it, and despite growing up around them, I still can't understand why they do things the way they do it. The way I settle things between other people is simple. I have two ways. Smile and nod, or just look them in the eyes, say something smartass, and forget anything happened. If I do it to a male, he usually does the same, or he also walks away. It has been done. But when I do it to a female, eve if I apologize, it's the end of the world and I am the most hated person she knows. (I have proof backing this but will not go into detail.)

2) Resolving conflict - How hard is it for a guy to get over they are wrong with another guy? Meh, maybe a physical smack on the head, or just a kick to the balls? Seriously though, when one girl crosses another.. sometimes I feel like the conflict will always be held above their heads until the end of time. Grudges, regrets, defects start to spike and start to flow into their relationships later on.

I admit, I am a grudge holder. Cross me once, then you slashed the friendship in half. But I still choose not to involve myself at all with him/her. I don't even talk about said person behind his or her back, instead, I move on with my life. From what I have seen with my sisters and other female family members, they bitch to me about their grudges, making it sound as though they were left for dead, and then invite said person over for their birthday party. They either are pretending to hate eachother, or pretending to love eachother, I don't know.

3) Vanity - Personally I think every person is vane. Though the amounts and degrees are dependent. I want to call this more of a female trait, just because of the amount of guys I know that lack sanitary habits are huge. I have a friend who admitted he didn't shower for 4-5 days, and to top it off he has a pretty decent looking girlfriend. She on the other hand.. wow. She probably takes 3-4 hours getting ready, fixing her no bleed make up, and dressing either 1) like she's ready for sex 2) she's going out to a club. I have a hard time being around her, due to my wife has jealousy fits.

Not much I can say about this other than, I never pay attention to this anyway

4) Jealousy - Um. Boys just want to go fast. Men want to have something for himself and be better off. Girls.. dream their whole lives. When their dreams don't work out.. they try to get with a guy/girl. Guys measure their jealousy on the amount of money they have and physical possessions. Ladies measure their jealousy on the amount of stuff they are able to get, the ways they can doll themselves up to a standard no other woman can, to always have their own different look.. when guys look at each other and go.. meh. Not once have I ever been jealous of a man and the way he looks.

I've never envied anyone for anything. I choose to make due with what I have and use it for my own life instead of fantasizing that I could have, while my sisters and mother usually try to go out and get either the same thing or something similar/better. I think everyone should make due with what they have, and get what they can, not what they want. This is because if we have all this crap, but don't make due with it, it becomes a waste of space/time/money. My mom is famous for getting crap she doesn't need/use.

5) Games - Yes men are a bit more "contact" oriented when it comes down to it. We love to body slam folks through walls, go faster than before, or see blood etc.. and yes I know some women do. I also think all men have natural blood lust.

Agreed here

 

[Dragon Mage]

I will post something more in-depth later considering that I should be doing mind-numbing homework at the moment.

1) Drama is subjective. Some people thrive on it. Other's couldn't give a shit less. I belong to the latter group. Now, there are conclusive studies that support the fact that women are more manipulative and vengeful because society has always expected them to be that way -- this is especially true of North America and European societies. Girls grow up being told that they're better at verbal abuse and manipulation -- through society, media, parents, and peers -- and so there is an automatic following of what is considered 'natural'. In truth, men can be just as vicious and manipulative as women, but they are impressed when very young to be more physical. Again, this is especially prominent in North America and Europe.

2) I can only speak personally, because I know that I've held a grudge against a few people for almost a year now, and my hate is still strong. Some things cannot be forgiven until safety, sanity, and hope have been destroyed. But that is just me. Assuredly, there are some girls out there that are downright mean when it comes to conflict -- but girls are also more likely to forgive and forget; men have a certain element of pride/honor that must be immutable, and if it is tarnished in any way, it must be exacted. Keep in mind, Shu, that you speak of your own experiences as well. I've seen far more girls than guys make up and go about life as though nothing happen, and have acted as mediators in conflicts far, far more often than guys. Girls are willing to let things boil before calming the situation, if you will, whereas guys are more likely to fly into a fist-fight. Typically.

3) Here, I think you stray a great deal, Shu. Everyone is susceptible to vanity. For guys, the primary concerns are weight (god forbid if you aren't 'cute' or have muscles up the wahzoo) and hairiness (this is true, hairy guys are not as attractive as non-hairy guys). Also, consider that you are not thinking of the whole picture. There is an immense culture around beauty and an even greater pressure for women to conform to that standard of beauty. Every girl to post on here will probably tell you this. Having the right boobs, the right legs, the right lips, the right eyes, the right hair, the right body -- have you lost those 15 pounds yet? -- the right clothes, the right shoes, the right make-up, the right accessories, the right jewelry....

The list goes on. In our society, a woman is almost an embarrassment or outcast if she is not 'pretty'. This is why girls go to such lengths to dress up and prepare before going out -- girls know that they'll be judged on their looks. Not to mention that since any girl could understand a commercial, we've all been told that to be beautiful is the ultimate goal in life. And with societal pressures to conform to that beauty, well.... it shouldn't surprise you at all that girls are so concerned about their looks. It isn't vanity -- it's fear of being ostracized for not being beautiful enough.

4) Oh ho! Shu, I think you've been greatly misled! Everyone is equally capable of being jealous, and it's a teeny bit prejudiced of you to think that girls measure their 'jealousy' by the things they've supposedly 'acquired'. That's just what you think is true because that's the ages-old stereotype -- which, as we all know, ages-old stereotypes never hold any water. It may be true in some cases that there are girls with this 'gold digger' attitude. But this does not limit the feeling of jealousy to just girls, or make them a majority. I've known several guys do petty things and act in petty ways -- such as stealing a girlfriend or being a bastard -- to a buddy simply because that buddy has a game or car or other object of desire. Be careful when you assume that girls primarily act jealously -- if shrewish, controlling girlfriends in the past has impressed this upon you, then please forget them; they're a poor example of women overall and they were only acting so because of their own insecurities.

5) Again, there are studies that support that women being more physical than men is a societal thing. Were our society to encourage women to be more aggressive and men more passive, you'd see the opposite of the trend you see today. Again, I'll post the supporting arguments in full in a later post.

Anyways, to be quite honest, girls can be just as much into 'contact sports' as guys IF our society encouraged it at a younger age, or at the very least did not discourage it so strenuously as is done today. It's all simply a matter of how society reacts to such things that make enormous changes later in life. So it's really a context-sensitive matter, all said and done.

But you are entirely correct in one thing: men are more aggressive and violent --= markedly so -- than nearly all women. I say nearly because, well.... I find I'm the most bloodthirsty person I know.



Very interesting thread, i'll try to get that post up as soon as possible.

 

[Shu]

Also just a bit of a hint, I threw some controversial stuff in my post, though some of it obviously I wanted to spark a reaction due to most fellas I know have a .. well a never changing view on women. Vise versa towards men as well.

So you might see some.. stuff I don't really hold true, but I want to bring out the full potential in this thread, so might as well get the prejudices out of the way. This is all this thread really is anyway. Boxing gloves off... have fun.

P.S. Add to the thread if you wish, this isn't just entitled to the main posts I submitted those were just a few when I had 20 minutes to kill. I actually have a lot more in mind.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Ah, gotchya. Take your post with a pinch of salt. Okay, that makes sense. My apologies. :3

 

[Shu]

No No, see don't take away from the thread and apologize, you are responding to what some of the mass majorities say. I'm trying to make a solid case that men and women are different down at the very core, now I want to proven wrong .. or supported.

You took more of the... hmm feminist/realist approach. Though I will disagree with you in some areas, but I'll respond tomorrow at work.

 

[Dee]

Gah, I had this whole thing typed up and then the board took a shit on me. Sigh, I want to reply, though.

Basically, what I said was that I think it's important to point out these are commonly gender-related stereotypes and not always necessarily true for the gender as a whole. Though more common, it is really an individual matter and unfair to assume every woman or man is predisposed to acting or thinking a certain way because of their gender.

Before I say anything, I'd like to mention that I can only speak for myself.

1. Drama - I am not one to get involved in drama. In fact, I make a point to avoid it. I just don't understand what some people find appealing about it, whether they simply don't know they're getting themselves involved or they cannot help it. I know a lot of people who say they don't like drama, but are actually big drama queens; this goes for girls AND boys.

2. Resolving Conflict - I don't know about anyone else, but I am okay with admitting I am wrong UNLESS I feel strongly that I am right and have reasonable evidence to support my view. I think this has a lot to do with experience and maturity, however; not so much gender. Some girls are good at making amends and some just aren't. We are nasty, though, when we are fighting someone, although we do it in a different way than boys (some girls physically resolve their conflicts, but this isn't as 'normal'). I am, though, a very vengeful person and when you wrong me, I will not forget it. It takes a lot to get on my bad side, however. But if you do something to go that far, I will hold a grudge and probably distance myself.

3. Vanity - I've never been a very vain person. I was a bit of a late bloomer in terms of caring about my looks. Only within the last 5 or so years have I been religiously wearing makeup. I do dress better than when I was in high school, but it's always been comfort over how I look, though I tend to like to look at least someone put together. I spend about 15 minutes in front of the mirror brushing my teeth, drying my hair and putting makeup on because 1) I don't have much time in the morning, and 2) I just don't care all that much. I do have to look polished for work, though. When I'm not working, I dress down in jeans and a t-shirt and I won't put as much makeup on. My looks have always come second to things like education and personality. I find myself constantly saying I'd rather someone notice how smart or funny I am than to judge or like me based solely on my looks (although we know how stupid that wish is).

4. Jealousy - I'm going to use the example of my ex. He is a tall, thin, handsome guy with brown hair and blue eyes. He looks like he could model; he's just got that kind of face and bone structure. Bottom line is that he's a looker and I know it, all the other girls know it, too. When he was at work he would tell me they'd constantly hit on him, but I trusted the guy and--to my knowledge--stayed faithful. We're still friends and I hang out with him every week, but it never really bothered me back then when we were going out. I wasn't jealous about the other girls because I'm just not that kind of person. It has nothing to do with my gender and we all know how obsessive and possessive a guy can get over his girl. >_>

5. Games - While I'm not a big fan of sports, I do like hockey. I like it because of the entertainment; the fighting and slamming each other against the rink wall is an added bonus. It just makes the game more interesting. If there was absolutely no fighting allowed, I probably wouldn't bother watching. Other sports just bore me. I'm not into playing them, heither. They can get pretty violent and I am a petite girl. I would get clobbered, most likely, but it's mainly because I don't have that aggressive urge (although I do have a violent temper). Guys' bodies just work differently, there are different chemicals being released that make them function in a different manner and one of those things we girls don't get is the testosterone.

There are some obvious differences, but it is not a proven fact that men are different creatures than women. We may function, some of us, in a different manner, but it is truly a subjective issue.

 

[Rydrum2112]

If you guys understood Evolutionary psychology, then things would be much clearer for you.

(I don't have the time right now to post on everything you put and what the relevant research that addresses it)

Here are some resources quickly, (if you are truly interested):
Red Queen by Matt Ridley
On Human Nature by E.O. Wilson
Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence by Richard Wrangham & Dale Peterson

 

[Silver Shadow]

I have no idea if I should comment on this, but I'm a high schooler and I see people with little restraints and hormones on overdrive. So I can kinda say I see the absolute base of human nature.

1) Drama - What is it about this addictive drug that most women, even if they deny it like a little bit of it just to keep them entertained? I've seen some men sometimes cause it, but it's more of a up close and personal feel. When women do it, sometimes I exclaim to myself... "Damn", how calculated/mathematically planned out do you have to be to totally get off on drama. I've always wanted to call it a deficiency, but it's hard to say that, when I've seen it soooooo much. Granted guys can be back handed and a bit weak.. but I've never really seen someone do the amount of mental obstacles as men.

Dear god, where to start. I know people who PURPOSELY start drama (though they obviously don't admit it) just for the sake of it. I've seen a shitload of drama, to the point I literally said "Screw this. Your problem, leave me out of it." I actually have said this a number of times. Drama is just a really big pain, and if the idea existed physically, the things I would do to it would scar you for life.

2) Resolving conflict - How hard is it for a guy to get over they are wrong with another guy? Meh, maybe a physical smack on the head, or just a kick to the balls? Seriously though, when one girl crosses another.. sometimes I feel like the conflict will always be held above their heads until the end of time. Grudges, regrets, defects start to spike and start to flow into their relationships later on.

I also agree there. I pissed off some girl by sheer accident. Now A. she won't listen to me when I try to apologize and explain it was a misunderstanding, and B. she quite frequently says she wants to kill me. This has been going on since middle-March. Then again, she wants to kill a lot of other people. I mean, if a guy ticks me off, I generally tell them to go the hell away for a while or just slam them into the nearest wall (intimidation factor). A girl pisses me off, I generally insult them in a large variety of ways. I tick off a guy, I get a large amount of insults. I tick off a girl... I get death threats. Daily. Gets old.

3) Vanity - Personally I think every person is vane. Though the amounts and degrees are dependent. I want to call this more of a female trait, just because of the amount of guys I know that lack sanitary habits are huge. I have a friend who admitted he didn't shower for 4-5 days, and to top it off he has a pretty decent looking girlfriend. She on the other hand.. wow. She probably takes 3-4 hours getting ready, fixing her no bleed make up, and dressing either 1) like she's ready for sex 2) she's going out to a club. I have a hard time being around her, due to my wife has jealousy fits.

lol at your problem. Anyways, Dear god are they vain. I see girls who cannot live without make-up, which makes no sense. OK, I shower as much as the next guy who actually cares about his hygiene (once a day), but showering and deodorant is as far as I go (aside from the obvious wash hands, brush teeth, etc.) But I have seen girls carry half a suitcase full of make-up to school. Overkill much?

4) Jealousy - Um. Boys just want to go fast. Men want to have something for himself and be better off. Girls.. dream their whole lives. When their dreams don't work out.. they try to get with a guy/girl. Guys measure their jealousy on the amount of money they have and physical possessions. Ladies measure their jealousy on the amount of stuff they are able to get, the ways they can doll themselves up to a standard no other woman can, to always have their own different look.. when guys look at each other and go.. meh. Not once have I ever been jealous of a man and the way he looks.

Agreed here as well, though you kinda skipped jealously when a man tries to date your girl. Anywho... Dear god. I am not a jealous person, but the things I have seen people do out of pure jealously... attacking them openly, spreading nasty rumors, stealing their stuff, and other petty things... Dear god, get a life you crazy barbarians (no offense towards any girl or woman on here.) Seriously, how much does it take to state that you are jealous? Care about other people, not yourself only....

5) Games - Yes men are a bit more "contact" oriented when it comes down to it. We love to body slam folks through walls, go faster than before, or see blood etc.. and yes I know some women do. I also think all men have natural blood lust.

X3 ah the sight of blood. I'm going to say that I agree there (except change some to most), myself and the people I know as an example. We are very sadistic, and most of the girls are masochistic (so it's fun to practice torture, though I generally use very petty ways to cause pain, as I DO have limits). However, I think the natural blood-lust stems from needing to survive, and others on your territory stealing your supplies just need to die... so blood lust, yes. I have been known to black-out for short periods of time and spill a few drops of blood from people when I'm very pissed off or in a foul humor. I can't remember a thing afterwards, except what they tell me, and I kinda have to take their word for it.

That's a high schoolers view. Anyone else want to say something?

 

[Valvalis]

(this is true, hairy guys are not as attractive as non-hairy guys)

Well, being married to a sasquatch I beg to differ :dave: lol. But I suppose it's a matter of opinion ^^ And a lot of other people do seem to feel that way

@Rydrum--I do agree that the concepts put forth by evolutionary psychology had a hand in shaping the way people are today; however, I do not think it can explain the totality of human behavior, because due to the elusive nature of accurate historical records, behavioral science will never be 100 percent accurate. I know I for one refuse to believe that there has ever existed a society where no members--not even one--disagreed with the "norm" and lived their lives without being governed by the standards of others, despite the lack of physical evidence. I think people have always had unusual, unique ideas about everything the same way we do today, in spite of whatever animalistic tendencies we harbor, and that many of them probably thought gender stereotypes were silly even back then. However, most historians throughout the ages chose to omit such details from their writings, and we can only speculate upon why; they themselves may have been governed by opposite ideals and wanted to obscure everything that stood in their way, who knows. But in a nutshell, my point is that the way I see it, applying such a stringent scientific view to male and female behavior gives far too little credit to the individual, and also takes away too much responsibility from the individual, which IMO is one of the things that kills any society and we're currently suffering from as well today.


Which is also why I think men and women seem to behave in predictable ways that are sorted out into "masculinity" and "femininity"--it's a recursive cycle of people being conditioned from birth to believe that there are certain ways a male and female must act, and falling into step with it as a result, only to teach it to their own children. When people are given the option of blaming their unseemly behaviors on "human nature," many of them are going to; after all, who would want to blame it on his or her own individual personality? The main reason I think gender wars and differences still exist is that it's convenient and effortless--for example, if a woman's husband constantly leaves the toilet seat up, and she does the common joke with her friends "What can I do, he's a guy," it's a lot more convenient and less stressful for her than to try to mentally delve into why he would possibly do something repeatedly that annoys her. That leads to more uncomfortable ideas such as "Oh, maybe he doesn't care about me" and the like, and that can be far more threatening to her comfort level than chocking it up to a gender stereotype. And the same thing goes for the toilet-culprit man himself; he can just blame it on his gender rather than taking enough responsibility to admit that he's thoughtless or lazy. The same thing applies to many women going crazy keeping up with makeup and fashion trends--while they may seem like they're slaving over adhering to popular beauty habits and whatnot, they're actually choosing to take the easy way out--it's a lot more convenient to copy someone else than to come up with something original on their own. If they had to worry each day whether or not an unusual outfit they created would attract positive attention from guys or other women, then they would probably kill themselves stressing over it.

To make my point I suppose (after all this ), Shu, my answer to your question is somewhat complicated: while I do agree that men and women think differently, and that some of the obvious chemicals (i.e. testosterone) might have a small amount to do with it, I also don't think that they necessarily have to think differently. For the most part it really boils down to a choice, and how comfortable you are as an individual--whether or not you're willing to follow your own path by doing things that you enjoy or believe in regardless of what gender they're more often associated with.

 

[Gaige]

I'm kinda surprised that I actually agreed with your post, Tyler. I kinda expected it to be biased, and riddled with holes, because of some recent anti woman/man posts from people, but I do agree.

Drama in particular is something I see more in women than in men. Most of the men I know are pretty masculine, and most of the girls feminine, so maybe that's affected my outlook, but I've never seen a man go into hysterics to the level I've seen it from a woman.

Resolving conflict is something I have seen women have difficulty with, but it has been done. And a lot of men have the issue that they can't swallow their pride and sort something out for fear of appearing to be weak. It's often men who are worried about projecting an image of "strength," which can affect conflict resolution.

Vanity is something I've seen in women more often than men. My dad and I would just splash our faces and get going. My mum would spend half an hour getting ready- to go to the shops. It's even longer if she's going out for fun. However, something I've seen men be vain about is their hair. In my school, you could walk into the bathroom at lunch and see five boys performing a synchronized hair brushing routine in front of the mirror. However, yeah. I do see more worrying about appearance in women.

Jealousy is something in us all. Though yeah, I tend to be more jealous of material possessions than physical appearance. Though I've really never seen girls be jealous of looks to a large extent. The girls I know tend to envy possessions too, and don't particularly get jealous of what they can't have. The girls I know are pretty down to earth though.

Games, yes. I do feel a slight thrill when I see blood in games. I think most people do, whether it's in RPGs, Shooters, or Sports games. Some women have this bloodlust, yeah, but I've seen it in every boy I know to some extent.

 

[Stoic Hero]

This is completely off topic (well, sort of) and it's based off of something that Gamingway said. It was about men leaving the toilet seat up and that making them "thoughtless or lazy."

Let me pose a question to you. Is it harder to raise a toilet seat, or lower it? The obvious answer is the former. It takes a lot more effort to bend down, raise the seat, and then use the bathroom. As a general rule, you should always check the status of the toilet seat, man or woman. It gives you a good idea of how to go about your business. Ex: A man probably doesn't want to pee with the seat down, and a woman probably doesn't want to pee with the seat up. So, here's my solution to your problem:

STOP BEING LAZY AND JUST TAP THE SEAT DOWN. JESUS IT ISN'T THAT HARD I MEAN SHIT.

It takes so much more effort to actually put the seat up in the first place. I'm just going to start complaining that "women never put the seat up for me" because they're too lazy and thoughtless.

No. Fix your own damn toilet seat.

Sorry about that. This is something that has raged inside of me for a while and I had to let it out. Carry on =)

 

[Channizard]

I'm gonna respond to mainly the drama bit, because.. let's face it, I know my shit.

Speaking as a reknowned dramaqueen who's trying to tame it down, I'll try and enlighten you as best as I can. Causing drama is somewhat of a thrill. You would only cause drama with people you absolutely hate, right? Or at least have some sort of tiff with. Now, as young girls growing up, we were told to act like a lady. A lady never picks a fight or is physical, that's a man's job. So what valuable weapon does that leave to us? Our mouths.

We gossip. We spread secrets. We start drama. It's the biggest form of betrayal we can do and to incite a bigger reaction out of someone, than say just slapping them.

Most people who are involved in drama do it because they want to see the other person be hurt by what we're saying. After all, airing someone's dirty laundry, like say... she had an abortion, is far more effective at breaking her, than just beating her up. Injuries heal over time, but a wound from a betrayal of friendship (if dramaqueens were former friends anyway) or just a betrayal of trust in itself, would take ages to heal over.

Now, this leads over as well into resolving conflict. Why would we want to resolve a conflict so easily, if we've been back stabbed? It could be as something as severe as the aforementioned example, or it could be something as meaningless as skipping out on girls night and not calling. There's always a reason for something to feel upset, and to women, it doesn't matter how big or small that reason is.

Some women get upset over missed friend dates or not calling back, and they'll take it as "OMG, we had this planned and now she flaked! There must be something awful with me that she doesn't want to spend time with me!" or "OMG she must be mad at me, what did I do?" or "OMG, is she spending time with someone else instead of me?"

Many many MANY irrational things go through a womans mind to try and find the reason for why something happened or didn't happen. And something that can be as small as meeting for coffee, can suddenly seem so major if it's been cancelled out of the blue. Hence, a grudge can be held for an indefinite amount of time until a reasonable, or rather a worthy excuse has been handed over.

...I think I had more points to be made, but I'm not entirely sure how to connect them mid thought... and it's late and I'm tired.. so maybe it'll make more sense tomorrow. xD

 

[Shu]

We gossip. We spread secrets. We start drama. It's the biggest form of betrayal we can do and to incite a bigger reaction out of someone, than say just slapping them.

Most people who are involved in drama do it because they want to see the other person be hurt by what we're saying. After all, airing someone's dirty laundry, like say... she had an abortion, is far more effective at breaking her, than just beating her up. Injuries heal over time, but a wound from a betrayal of friendship (if dramaqueens were former friends anyway) or just a betrayal of trust in itself, would take ages to heal over.

Many many MANY irrational things go through a womans mind to try and find the reason for why something happened or didn't happen. And something that can be as small as meeting for coffee, can suddenly seem so major if it's been cancelled out of the blue. Hence, a grudge can be held for an indefinite amount of time until a reasonable, or rather a worthy excuse has been handed over.

So then based on this, if a woman has stingy friendships, she's not datable material because it's possible she screwed over every friend she had or she has a hard time in keeping friendships because of other personality defects?

What I'm saying is, what women don't realize is sometimes what you do in a friendship carries over into what you do in a relationship. If you lie to friends, you will most likely be lying one day to your significant other, because it's easier than confrontation. Same to men. It's easier to fight physically with a man, than it is to reason with sometimes. Though if it were to leak into a relationship we all know this could be messed up. (wife beaters)

I call women the masters of manipulation. When played the same cards as men, they take the most emotional disturbing route to get the biggest bang for their drama. While men on the other hand don't think so intricately off the bat. If we intend to back stab someone, it will be right out in the open most often times then not, but a simple lie or just crap talking them. We handle the more confrontational approach.

I'm not saying all women are like this, but you'd be surprised (even without dating) how many women I've seen screw each other over, and it leads into their relationship, where they keep playing the same games because it's almost a drug of some kind. If they don't do it, they don't have a purpose in life it feels like.

 

[Valvalis]

This is completely off topic (well, sort of) and it's based off of something that Gamingway said. It was about men leaving the toilet seat up and that making them "thoughtless or lazy."

Let me pose a question to you. Is it harder to raise a toilet seat, or lower it? The obvious answer is the former. It takes a lot more effort to bend down, raise the seat, and then use the bathroom. As a general rule, you should always check the status of the toilet seat, man or woman. It gives you a good idea of how to go about your business. Ex: A man probably doesn't want to pee with the seat down, and a woman probably doesn't want to pee with the seat up. So, here's my solution to your problem:

STOP BEING LAZY AND JUST TAP THE SEAT DOWN. JESUS IT ISN'T THAT HARD I MEAN SHIT.

It takes so much more effort to actually put the seat up in the first place. I'm just going to start complaining that "women never put the seat up for me" because they're too lazy and thoughtless.

No. Fix your own damn toilet seat.

Sorry about that. This is something that has raged inside of me for a while and I had to let it out. Carry on =)

Oh I agree here, I was just giving a common example that a lot of people experience. I can't tell you how many times I've had to wipe one small drip of water off the floor because other people cba to watch where they're walking Sorry, as my post was partially about people needing to take more responsibility in their lives I guess I'd just assumed that my attitude towards that would be understood, my mistake

 

[Rydrum2112]

Gamingway-

I am really confused by your response. I am not sure you understand what ev pysch is (good link to intro). No one in the field thinks they can explain the totality of human behavior. There will always be variation in responses. What ev psych does is try to explain why people on average behave in a certain way in a given circumstance. Also if you are familiar with behavioral sciences, they don't ever explain anything 100% what they do is look for trends and try to account for portions of variance.

Also you don't need historical records for ev psych.

You also say,

applying such a stringent scientific view to male and female behavior gives far too little credit to the individual

, What are you talking about?


You also say,

Which is also why I think men and women seem to behave in predictable ways that are sorted out into "masculinity" and "femininity"--it's a recursive cycle of people being conditioned from birth to believe that there are certain ways a male and female must act, and falling into step with it as a result, only to teach it to their own children.

The claim that guys act in masculine ways because they were raised that way and females in feminine ways because they were raised that way has been shown to be false (obviously, not for every single instance), studies examine different societies (where males and females are raised markedly differently)and yet see that men across the board have the same interests and so do females. One of the most famous being David Buss's crosscultural survey of what males and females look for in mates.

If your are claiming tabla rasa you are def. wrong.

 

[Valvalis]

@Rydrum--I think the wording in your original post may have been what I had trouble understanding:

If you guys understood Evolutionary psychology, then things would be much clearer for you.

I'm confused as to how things would be made "much clearer for us" if evolutionary psychology is incapable of explaining anything completely I mean, if it's based on the testing of select groups of people rather than every single person on the planet, then I really don't see how it can be used as an argument here, where the issue at hand is common gender stereotypes vs. the exceptions to the rule that seem to disprove their necessity. You said it looks for "averages" and "trends"--but I think it's the "averages" and "trends" that are the very problem here, because it's the "unusual" people who are actually the key to understanding just how much or how little gender roles are truly imprinted into us, which I think was the essential question up for debate. More so than the averages, what I would be more interested to know is, what explanations does EP offer for the people who vary from the norm? Are they considered to be malformed, or are they possibly superior specimens who are the catalysts to new trends in behavior that will eventually develop into norms themselves? Or, are they completely innocuous?

Also, what I mean by "applying such a stringent scientific view to male and female behavior gives far too little credit to the individual" is pretty much how I explained it later on--I personally don't think an individual's decisions, goals, behaviors, etc. should be chocked up solely to evolutionary psychology because a person who is conditioned to behave a certain way can sometimes choose to defy it on his or her own with no outside input. Something can't really be called an adaptation when it's not necessary for an organism's survival, and for humans, behaving in a stereotypical "male" or "female" way is not always necessary for finding a mate. A lot of people hook up because they have common interests that are completely gender-neutral, and only become a romantic couple because they have the appropriate body parts for sex and both of them want it.

Also, I don't understand why you wouldn't need historical records of people in previous time periods to be able to make accurate hypotheses in evolutionary psychology; the term itself indicates a long-term study that spans much more than the few generations of living memory in the form of humans that we currently have walking around this planet.

One other thing, it may be that many of us who posted do understand evolutionary psychology and simply don't agree with it, so it is a bit uncomfortable to hear someone just assume we don't I understand the basic concepts of it, but I personally don't agree with it because it is a science based upon humans observing other humans, and therefore, just like my own individual speculations, it has the ability to be fallible.

 

[Rydrum2112]

Gamingway (I am not going to post rebutting all of what you wrote -you because it would detract from the intent of original thread). Lastly, just to get something out of the way, every science has the ability to be fallible. So dismissing something because it has a chance of being wrong would mean you would dismiss everything.

I am not sure you understand what EP is. You claim that you understand the basic concepts and later in your post that you understand it, but then you make false statements about it -such as: "

the term itself indicates a long-term study that spans much more than the few generations of living memory in the form of humans that we currently have walking around this planet.

"

This is completely false, that is not what EP does and if you think so you are mistaken.

You say-

I personally don't think an individual's decisions, goals, behaviors, etc. should be chocked up solely to evolutionary psychology because a person who is conditioned to behave a certain way can sometimes choose to defy it on his or her own with no outside input.

As I stated previously, no one in the field would ever say a complex behavior like you are talking about is the product of just one influence. EP doesn't even function that way, it would be like me saying a given behavior can be explained solely through cognitive psychology, which if you know psych is meaningless.

You also talk about conditioning which is learned behavior, and EP has nothing to do with learned behavior.

Something can't really be called an adaptation when it's not necessary for an organism's survival, and for humans, behaving in a stereotypical "male" or "female" way is not always necessary for finding a mate.

Actually if you understood EP you wouldn't make this claim because you would know that EP isn't primarily concerned with an organisms survival.

I am not gonna spend anymore time refuting your points here because as I stated before I don't want to detract from the main focus of the thread.

If you want to talk about EP then maybe start a thread on it.

 

[Shu]

Gamingway (I am not going to post rebutting all of what you wrote -you because it would detract from the intent of original thread). Lastly, just to get something out of the way, every science has the ability to be fallible. So dismissing something because it has a chance of being wrong would mean you would dismiss everything.

I am not sure you understand what EP is. You claim that you understand the basic concepts and later in your post that you understand it, but then you make false statements about it -such as: ""

This is completely false, that is not what EP does and if you think so you are mistaken.

You say-

As I stated previously, no one in the field would ever say a complex behavior like you are talking about is the product of just one influence. EP doesn't even function that way, it would be like me saying a given behavior can be explained solely through cognitive psychology, which if you know psych is meaningless.

You also talk about conditioning which is learned behavior, and EP has nothing to do with learned behavior.



Actually if you understood EP you wouldn't make this claim because you would know that EP isn't primarily concerned with an organisms survival.

I am not gonna spend anymore time refuting your points here because as I stated before I don't want to detract from the main focus of the thread.

If you want to talk about EP then maybe start a thread on it.

You do know that most of psychology is based off of theories right? To take everything so literal is like taking a religion so literal. By completely following a scientist/psychologist word for word is like trying to make someones beliefs your own.

I've heard of evolutionary psychology and I can take some aspects out and say they may be legit, but to be honest they base it just like every other psychology.

Placebo effect for example. Man acts a certain way in order to get a certain thing. Women act a certain way to get a certain thing as well. When one person gets sick, and the doctors says he's giving him pain relaxers, sometimes the person will automatically feel better even if the pills were actually sugar pills.

The behavioral psychology basically often time groups people together to see how they will act if a certain catalyst is inserted into the equation. Say you have 4 girls standing around in a highschool hall, the HS football stud walks past and a chain reaction occurs which makes all 4 girls turn at separate times and lose their breath to this fella.

In my opinion I still believe Men are more visual than women when it comes to attraction. If the guy has the ability to smooth talk, or acts a certain way or has a nice voice, he's struck gold. If a girl tries that and she has an average look about her, no sir-ee for most fellas.

It's sad right? We give eachother complexes, so women must always turn to their Seventeen, Cosmos, and other magazines which insist how to look or how to please a certain man or get his attraction. Sorry but men.. sigh.. men will turn you down first for being unattractive. Hince the inferiority complexes start to spout up.

As for men, we always try to one up eachother. It doesn't matter if it's a video game, a football game, a math test, a bible lesson, it's in our blood for natural competivity.

It has a large part to do with the product of societies in general, but I believe even without these controls, we would still be vastly different. I guess the main part is hormonal though. Me, I'll admit, I can watch rambo and literally see someone's dome pop off (head) and go... amazing... while a girl can go.. "wtf disgusting!" I would never hurt a fly, but I still believe men have natural blood lust.

Though I'll get back to it. Evolution, yes women have changed from decade to decade even. Men have done the same as well. We have not always been this way emotional in my opinion.

These days the world is a bit more open minded towards everything with rights. Anything goes really, and to think otherwise, it's almost like the folks will be demonized. A lot of folks still are stubborn, but I consider it to be what they grew up in and the fact they didn't have the outlet to venture to different groups.

It's more a process of self discovery for me though. When it boils down to it, am I different than a woman? Sure.

I think burping/farting/swearing/wrestling with friends is still natural around my guy friends. Now do girls wrestle or light their farts on fire? (I don't do the 2nd one, though I do wrestle) I like being a neanderthal every now and again. We talk about so little in material usually, but it might just be my friends. Sometimes we talk music, someitmes we talk movies, sometimes we talk about women and their looks.. but naturally that's it. Intellectually I would say I'm pretty up there, though it's more of a closet thing.

Girls, now I don't know what ya'll do on your nights (not talking about when you go to bars). Do you look forward to seeing one guy all day? Do you read, write, listen to music in your spare time? Does your mind need certain things in order to get by for the day? Do you need an outlet to talk to every now and again? Guys don't. We can bottle our shit up all our lives actually, we handle our problems so differently often times. Even without trained mechanisms from child births, I think we would still do so.

As a deep thinker (closet of course, unless one really needs a good listener/responder) it's hard to shut off my brain. I can analyze something until it burns in my brain, then even then I keep thinking about it.

Though if a guy comes to me and talks about his stuff, and it is trivial I'm apt to tell him to brush it off and not make a big deal of it. Though girls sometimes codel this behavior. Meaning they are like... oh...my...gosh. (trust me my wife works at a tanning bed, I hear it all the time). "he did what, she did what.. oh my.. I can't believe he went out to the bar without her when she was sick.." I'm like.. uhh come on, I need to step outside.

Anyways.. yea.. I'll stop there.

 

[Dee]

In my opinion I still believe Men are more visual than women when it comes to attraction. If the guy has the ability to smooth talk, or acts a certain way or has a nice voice, he's struck gold. If a girl tries that and she has an average look about her, no sir-ee for most fellas.

Yes, men are visual creatures. Their minds focus on what their eyes are projecting them and their bodies act accordingly. Now, this isn't to say they cannot control their actions, but when it comes to visual stimuli, men are more susceptible to this way of functioning. I will say, however, that a good number of humans are like this. Humans in general really are visual creatures. Everyday we're seeing things and yes, women do look at guys and say "Man, I'd ride that." We just don't make it as apparent and our bodies don't react the same way.

This is different when looking for a mate. In EP, early on when we were simply mating to carry on the species, looks didn't necessarily matter so much. If a guy was strong and could prove to be a worthy mate in terms of DNA that had the right qualities, it was a go. Now that we've evolved and society has also evolved, things are different. Unless a woman is simply looking for a fling, we tend to revert back to our early evolutionary ways where looks don't matter so much as whether they are a good provider, stable, strong, etc. It's these qualities that are sought after in the long term.

It's sad right? We give eachother complexes, so women must always turn to their Seventeen, Cosmos, and other magazines which insist how to look or how to please a certain man or get his attraction. Sorry but men.. sigh.. men will turn you down first for being unattractive. Hince the inferiority complexes start to spout up.

Eh, this really depends on the woman. While there is a large population of women who buy into the stuff in magazines, not every girl reads that crap. I think what's happening here is that many of us are so narrow-minded about these things because we only experience an incredibly small percentage from the people around us. And what some people don't take into consideration is that there are many different factors that go into determining how women function as a gender on the whole, which I prefer to focus on rather than zeroing in on the small number of women you know compared to every woman. Things like culture and personal experiences would be major factors.

As for men, we always try to one up eachother. It doesn't matter if it's a video game, a football game, a math test, a bible lesson, it's in our blood for natural competivity.

I do this, too. I know some girls who are very competitive, so I can't really say anything other than just to expand your ideas of how women are truly like.

It has a large part to do with the product of societies in general, but I believe even without these controls, we would still be vastly different. I guess the main part is hormonal though. Me, I'll admit, I can watch rambo and literally see someone's dome pop off (head) and go... amazing... while a girl can go.. "wtf disgusting!" I would never hurt a fly, but I still believe men have natural blood lust.

I've always been the kind of girl who would rather see an action-packed flick with explosions, car chase scenes and shoot outs than a, and I'm using the term biasedly here, "chick flick". I am really not one for sappy romances, unless the comedy is witty, clever and just downright gold, but honestly, I think it's just because I was desensitized at a young age. We had access to these movies and television shows and I preferred them over some fluffy, lovey dovey crap. I was watching RoboCop and Predator recently and those movies are awesome.

Though I'll get back to it. Evolution, yes women have changed from decade to decade even. Men have done the same as well. We have not always been this way emotional in my opinion.

These days the world is a bit more open minded towards everything with rights. Anything goes really, and to think otherwise, it's almost like the folks will be demonized. A lot of folks still are stubborn, but I consider it to be what they grew up in and the fact they didn't have the outlet to venture to different groups.

I think what we need to focus on, while still upholding the idea of equal rights, is that not all women are the same. We, as a people, are s l o w l y coming to find this out and accept it, even. We are still stuck in this idea that women, just because they have the genetics, are loving, gentle, emotional, vain creatures. A lot of what the first questions were asked never really had a thorough background check if you will. Vanity has becoming more prevalent as society started caring more about looks; thus, becoming a wide-spread deal in all cultures over the world. It has evolved in different ways, but is essentially different now than it was 1,000 years ago; even 100.

Conflict resolution has evolved for men as well. They don't always fight things out in a display of pride. They don't murder each other as much as they used to for various reasons. While there is still fighting, men seem to have more restraint.

Jealousy is just a natural human instinct. It doesn't seem, to me, to differ much between men or women.

And games were quite an event in history passed. What about the Gladiators? Spectators consisted of both men and women. What about during the middle ages when men jousted and fought with swords? Big entertainment for both men and women. These are just a few examples, but I think that men tend to underestimate women sometimes.

I think burping/farting/swearing/wrestling with friends is still natural around my guy friends. Now do girls wrestle or light their farts on fire? (I don't do the 2nd one, though I do wrestle) I like being a neanderthal every now and again. We talk about so little in material usually, but it might just be my friends. Sometimes we talk music, someitmes we talk movies, sometimes we talk about women and their looks.. but naturally that's it. Intellectually I would say I'm pretty up there, though it's more of a closet thing.

Hahaha, by many of your guys' standards, I think I'm more of a man than a woman. I burp, fart (though not usually in public) and swear my head off. I have two brothers, so we would rough house a lot when we were younger. I also just got physically violent with my friend, though out of fun more than anger. We were just playing around, but I was still fighting with him. I think that shit, farting and swearing is hilarious. I think it's just a matter of who you know and what you've experienced. If you only knew women who played sports, cursed and belched out loud, you'd probably have a different outlook on things.

Girls, now I don't know why ya'll do on your nights (not talking about when you go to bars). Do you look forward to seeing one guy all day? Do you read, write, listen to music in your spare time? Does your mind need certain things in order to get by for the day? Do you need an outlet to talk to every now and again? Guys don't. We can bottle our shit up all our lives actually, we handle our problems so differently often times. Even without trained mechanisms from child births, I think we would still do so.

I do not look forward to seeing anyone but my cats and being home by myself. I don't have a guy and I don't want or need one. I just want to be by myself. I do read and write and listen to music, but I know plenty of men who do this. I don't necessarily need things to be in a certain order as I am pretty adaptable. I always have been. I do need an outlet, but the thing about this is that outlets differ from people to people. Some guys jack off as an outlet, amirite? Girls might take a long, hot bath. I don't, but some do.

As a deep thinker (closet of course, unless one really needs a good listener/responder) it's hard to shut off my brain. I can analyze something until it burns in my brain, then even then I keep thinking about it.

This seems to be in the spirit of the theme of this thread more of a feminine trait, believe it or not.

Though if a guy comes to me and talks about his stuff, and it is trivial I'm apt to tell him to brush it off and not make a big deal of it. Though girls sometimes codel this behavior. Meaning they are like... oh...my...gosh. (trust me my wife works at a tanning bed, I hear it all the time). "he did what, she did what.. oh my.. I can't believe he went out to the bar without her when she was sick.." I'm like.. uhh come on, I need to step outside.

I tend to do this as well with boy men and women. However, I have guys and girls coming to me with their problems. In fact, I have MORE male friends who seem to have a lot of issues you might think a woman would be fretting over, which is where my mindset tends to differ here. Depending on my mood, I will either tell them to suck it up and stop being such a wuss or I will give them, if they want it, my advice. I don't like to gossip, though. I hate it. I friggin' hate it and I tend to be the odd man out in my gender as this is more prevalent in women. Then again, I am a woman and I am not like some of my female counterparts, so I try not to assume that every woman, because she is a woman, embraces the stereotypes of her gender. I know for a fact that isn't true because I am not a stereotype and I know plenty of women who aren't as well.