Lightning Returns Worse than XIII-2?

[rowe]

A little bird told me that both ratings and sales were considerably less than XIII-2's initial release. I'm honestly not shocked. I had small hopes for this one anyway.

This screams to me (again) that XIII should have been the one and only title. No sequels, spinoffs, etc. The direction SE took after the first game was cringe-worthy, for the most part.

I'll still give the game a go at some point, but not right away in February next year.

 

[.Mosh]

This will just spiral out again into hate and people trying to defend the title. Yer it's sale figures are low but that doesn't mean a big a thing as some think it does. Yes a lot less people are buying it but if the game as actually better than XIII-2 word of mouth will then turn it around. Tomb Raider reboot was a fantastic game and that didn't do well for S-E financials, so take this with a pinch of salt. It is a big 'IF' but for me I will get it on launch and that is that =] You can only judge the game based off of your own time playing it and not someone paid to write.

 

[rowe]

You can only judge the game based off of your own time playing it and not someone paid to write.

No disagreement there, but it's interesting to note that of the general consensus. I think it holds some merit as to how the game may be, whether these people were paid or not.

If I do enjoy it, so be it. I've been positively swayed before in such circumstances.

 

[Razberry Knight]

This will just spiral out again into hate and people trying to defend the title. Yer it's sale figures are low but that doesn't mean a big a thing as some think it does. Yes a lot less people are buying it but if the game as actually better than XIII-2 word of mouth will then turn it around. Tomb Raider reboot was a fantastic game and that didn't do well for S-E financials, so take this with a pinch of salt. It is a big 'IF' but for me I will get it on launch and that is that =] You can only judge the game based off of your own time playing it and not someone paid to write.

.Mosh, many defenders have used sales in the past to defend the series. but this is something that's relevant when it comes to showing if people bought it.

sure it doesn't prove quality of the game, but also think about it, the sales dropped significantly when it came to the series. it shows people have lost interest.

But also note Tomb Raider had amazing sales, and even broke records. But SE is stupid and likes to blame eidos when their close to the red. And poeple have indeed complained to SE about having unrealistic expectations.


Honestly, you can judge a game simply by A) what has been advertise through the developers B) the story revealed so far C) previous ideas in the game.

.Mosh, you're free to buy it....afterall, you haven't proven to care so much about the plot. or rather you prefer gameplay over story in an rpg.

 

[.Mosh]

@.Mosh, many defenders have used sales in the past to defend the series. but this is something that's relevant when it comes to showing if people bought it.

sure it doesn't prove quality of the game, but also think about it, the sales dropped significantly when it came to the series. it shows people have lost interest.

But also note Tomb Raider had amazing sales, and even broke records. But SE is stupid and likes to blame eidos when their close to the red. And poeple have indeed complained to SE about having unrealistic expectations.


Honestly, you can judge a game simply by A) what has been advertise through the developers B) the story revealed so far C) previous ideas in the game.

.Mosh, you're free to buy it....afterall, you haven't proven to care so much about the plot. or rather you prefer gameplay over story in an rpg.

God I just can't seem to say anything without you going up my ass about it man. I will buy most games no matter what really and I care about a story more then anything, however I would like to see closure and am happy to buy this installment. The plot in this game can be iffy for what I read but it's not enough to throw me off the saddle, I have played far worse games in my lifetime then what this could be. I do agree on S-E having very unrealistic expectations for sale figures though.

 

[Razberry Knight]

God I just can't seem to say anything without you going up my ass about it man. I will buy most games no matter what really and I care about a story more then anything, however I would like to see closure and am happy to buy this installment. The plot in this game can be iffy for what I read but it's not enough to throw me off the saddle, I have played far worse games in my lifetime then what this could be. I do agree on S-E having very unrealistic expectations for sale figures though.

name the games.

you defend the game, i defend the hate. don't like it? it's a forum....

 

[C i d]

.Mosh
If you know that Razberry Knight will always reply to your posts in that way, I strongly advise that you ignore it completely, since you know that it is going to be an endless argument. While one prefers to have arguments this way, you may not. Hence there is no point in starting it.
Razberry Knight
Now I am not trying to ban you from arguing with other people's posts. However, please try to grab hints from their posts. If they seem annoyed that you keep arguing with them, it is obviously going to lead to a heated argument. I don't care if you love such heated arguments. If you can lead it to a friendly one, fine. However, looking at previous cases, you almost always end up offending the other poster (or the other way round), which unfortunately is not what we aim to have in this friendly forum.

For the others, since this is an argument thread, I allow arguments as long as: 1.) it does not involve flaming, 2.) It does not show signs that it is going to lead to a flaming session, 3.) It is on-topic and serious

Thank you so much for the cooperation. Please do not reply to this post. Any questions or concerns, PM me. Any more off-topic or flaming posts will be infracted and deleted.

 

[Starships]

Calm down peeps

There's still European and American sales to go yet

And after Christmas Sales as well, people might be holding off so they can buy it to their folks for a xmas pressie.

And even if the sales are still low after that, well it's time to move on from the Lightning Saga anyways yo.

/ trying to be nice and unbiased her because of Moshy

 

[Zeroxys]

who cares about sale numbers, if someone enjoys the game then let them enjoy it >.<
In my opinion they still have NA & Europe to go so i think its a little early to speculate how just good/bad the sales numbers mean in course of how good the game is. Some people are biased based on what 13 and 13-2 had to offer & wont even give this game a chance, ans so be it, thats your own opinion and to each his/her own.
However theres so many people going out of their way to bash the series and looking up sales numbers and comparing to the other 2 titles is a lil unfair considering its holiday season atm and people are just waiting till xmas to buy it im sure.

 

[.Mosh]

Calm down peeps

There's still European and American sales to go yet

And after Christmas Sales as well, people might be holding off so they can buy it to their folks for a xmas pressie.

And even if the sales are still low after that, well it's time to move on from the Lightning Saga anyways yo.

/ trying to be nice and unbiased her because of Moshy

I don't mind peoples opinions haha, I just don't like having razberry harrass me after every post to do with this game. I respect people who don't like it and they have their reasons as to why. But I do agree with what you said though it is well to early to tell and Christmas is another key factor.
Zeroxys
I agree with your statement as well, even if you don't like the game you went about it professionally which is what is needed.

 

[Razberry Knight]

who cares about sale numbers, if someone enjoys the game then let them enjoy it >.<
In my opinion they still have NA & Europe to go so i think its a little early to speculate how just good/bad the sales numbers mean in course of how good the game is. Some people are biased based on what 13 and 13-2 had to offer & wont even give this game a chance, ans so be it, thats your own opinion and to each his/her own.
However theres so many people going out of their way to bash the series and looking up sales numbers and comparing to the other 2 titles is a lil unfair considering its holiday season atm and people are just waiting till xmas to buy it im sure.

there's no argument about someone enjoying it. but that isn't the problem here. that's only what .Mosh believes.

Also note, that the sales are out there from gaming websites. you can't blame the fans or haters for that. And, i don't believe the holiday matters....how does that matter? in fact, FF13:LR should've sold more during those times.

But also look at the reviews: Famitsu who i'm sure loves FF13 as much as SE gave XIII 39/40, XIII-2 40/40, and now XIII:LR 37/40. now the numbers have dropped slightly. but thinking for the haters out there, the only reason why people stopped caring about scores is because half the time they would over-praise something, or hate it extensively. in this case its over-praise.

so if even Famitsu gave a lower score than previous games, you can sort of tell the game isn't as great as previous games. And this is the game that comes after the one who made the canon ending microtransaction DLC

also, remember what the thread is about. i'm only going in alignment with the one who began this discussion. it seems unfair too to bash the haters for their opinion as much as the fans.

Let them, just as much as we let you defend it. but also note that doesn't stop someone from replying. afterall, defending opinions is what this threads going to be about. so either close the thread if the mods hate discussions or let them argue it out without complaints.

 

[Linnaete]

Tomb Raider reboot was a fantastic game and that didn't do well for S-E financials, so take this with a pinch of salt.

I think the fundamental difference between Tomb Raider and LR is, the former had development costs on absurdly bloated levels and sales forecasts to make up for the costs, and to generate a profit were grossly miscalculated and overstated. Game certainly sold really well, but a botched management meant it couldn't become an easy success. With LR, it looks like they've been more modest with the shipment for the Japanese release compared to FFXIII-2's overshipped numbers. And unlike Tomb Raider, LR has the budget closer to NieR and Drakengard than anything else, indicating that Square sort of realised that this would perform as relatively modestly as we see at the moment.

Not too sure how the OP links with the thread title. I'm sure it's been said already, but sales are not indicative of quality. Many people are probably just not interested in another Lightning or FFXIII-related game despite what they've done with the world or gameplay. Maybe they see FFXV as the green pasture ahead, not this budget-looking spinoff marketed as a sequel. Or maybe there are people put off by LR's game design.

Whether LR is actually better or worse than FFXIII-2? I've had chats with certain people belonging to the FF fanbase, and the impression I got is that:

1) Graphically worse than FFXIII-2
2) OST is either on par or better than FFXIII-2 in places
3) Story is rubbish as usual, but probably not as rubbish as the time travel/paradox nonsense. Then again, hard to truly ascertain whether this is the case until we get the English version, but LR is full of its own newly-invented rubbish in its storyline, many of which are hilarious
4) But Noel is a better protagonist than Batma- uhh, Lightning
5) An actual, explorable world unlike FFXIII-2's disparate locations and hub
6) Combat is better than FFXIII-2 in general
7) LR is actually a challenging game compared to FFXIII-2's walkover
8) But LR lacks a strong villain, whereas FFXIII-2 has Caius through and through
9) But LR's quest design is apparently wretched. There are menial tasks and missions that you HAVE TO DO TO LEVEL UP Lightning's stats, and to even unlock certain new areas or whatever.
10) Time limit thing can get on people's nerves. I hope you like waiting for a certain time of the day to start/progress a quest!
11) Sazh is just as sidelined as in FFXIII-2
12) There is considerably less monster variety in LR
13) Dressing up/Barbie thing does seem to be generally well-received

So basically, the consensus so far seems to be that how LR plays is more fulfilling than in FFXIII-2. In terms of overall enjoyment? There's been a mixed response. Some continue to prefer FFXIII-2, others think this and FFXIII are the two better games in the trilogy.

I seriously cannot fathom how this game overall can be worse than FFXIII and FFXIII-2, but I'm prepared to eat some crow just in case. Square-Enix has proven in recent years that an abyss is actually deeper than it already looks, so what do I know...

 

[rowe]

... Some people are biased based on what 13 and 13-2 had to offer & wont even give this game a chance, ans so be it, thats your own opinion and to each his/her own.

The entirety of the sub-series gets bashed heavily. Most simply follow suit of what others say. (In my case, for this thread, I simply wished to debate, even though I'm still very skeptical. Haha.)

Not too sure how the OP links with the thread title. I'm sure it's been said already, but sales are not indicative of quality. Many people are probably just not interested in another Lightning or FFXIII-related game despite what they've done with the world or gameplay. Maybe they see FFXV as the green pasture ahead, not this budget-looking spinoff marketed as a sequel. Or maybe there are people put off by LR's game design.

Whether LR is actually better or worse than FFXIII-2? I've had chats with certain people belonging to the FF fanbase, and the impression I got is that:

1) Graphically worse than FFXIII-2
2) OST is either on par or better than FFXIII-2 in places
3) Story is rubbish as usual, but probably not as rubbish as the time travel/paradox nonsense. Then again, hard to truly ascertain whether this is the case until we get the English version, but LR is full of its own newly-invented rubbish in its storyline, many of which are hilarious
4) But Noel is a better protagonist than Batma- uhh, Lightning
5) An actual, explorable world unlike FFXIII-2's disparate locations and hub
6) Combat is better than FFXIII-2 in general
7) LR is actually a challenging game compared to FFXIII-2's walkover
8) But LR lacks a strong villain, whereas FFXIII-2 has Caius through and through
9) But LR's quest design is apparently wretched. There are menial tasks and missions that you HAVE TO DO TO LEVEL UP Lightning's stats, and to even unlock certain new areas or whatever.
10) Time limit thing can get on people's nerves. I hope you like waiting for a certain time of the day to start/progress a quest!
11) Sazh is just as sidelined as in FFXIII-2
12) There is considerably less monster variety in LR
13) Dressing up/Barbie thing does seem to be generally well-received

So basically, the consensus so far seems to be that how LR plays is more fulfilling than in FFXIII-2. In terms of overall enjoyment? There's been a mixed response. Some continue to prefer FFXIII-2, others think this and FFXIII are the two better games in the trilogy.

I seriously cannot fathom how this game overall can be worse than FFXIII and FFXIII-2, but I'm prepared to eat some crow just in case. Square-Enix has proven in recent years that an abyss is actually deeper than it already looks, so what do I know...

The OP ties in very well with what's being debated. That's the point, I feel.

Regarding sales. No, they don't indicate quality, but they do factor in to the game's overall success. It's not something that should be ruled out entirely.

Most, if not all, of the impressions you've stated are similar to what I've heard, especially numbers 3, 7, and 9. It's very much a mixed bag.

 

[Shaissa]

I will say this, if you didn't like XIII, got XIII-2 and didn't like that game... why would you get XIII: LR?

I can't say yet if this game is better or worse than XIII-2 or XIII, mainly because I refuse to look at any threads about it until I play and beat it...

Yes I am a bit skeptic, why I will be waiting for a price drop before. from the looks of it, I would say that they are bringing back every character, and the story parts that I read (before the release) seem interesting enough... I am just not going to spend my money on costumes .

 

[Zeroxys]

I personally believe that LR might not be as fun as 13-2 due to the fact that i LOVED 13-2. And i usually get alot of hate for that on this forum but thats what forums are about as just what razzberryknight said.
Im just referring to the fact that if anyone wants to go buy sales, especially with less than a month till xmas is seriously a bad example as to how a game might/might not be a good one. If my parents told me theyd get me a game i wanted for so long for xmas but i had to wait the extra 4 weeks to get it in order to save me money, i would def do that. I expect the sales to go through the roof in japan within the next few weeks because of new years as well. especially because the fanbase for FF is much larger in Europe & japan than in america (gathered this from a site & interviews with creators/directors awhile back)

But as far from being better than 13 and 13-2 we shall just have to see & i for one will be getting this game at midnight of the 11th of feb to get it

 

[Sheechiibii]

I don't think initial sales are indicative of how good a game is. After all nobody knows if they'll enjoy it until after they've already purchased and played it.

 

[Razberry Knight]

I don't think initial sales are indicative of how good a game is. After all nobody knows if they'll enjoy it until after they've already purchased and played it.

I think it really depends though....lets look at it this way: many people might buy FF15 more than FF13, why? it really depends on what they reveal about the game and what gets the people wanting it. keep in mind 13-2 and LR had a significant amount of PR. i agree that maybe it's not as biggest as it could've been due to the time it was released, but we've seen PS4 sell extremely well (granted worldwide, but still considered a success for worldwide)

So far LR has been about somehow bringing back all the characters previously seen (except for the irrelevant ones), somehow in this new world (so we're going to forget about everything that happened in XIII and XIII-2) and the main focus of the gameplay is costumes. Not only costumes, but costumes that don't fit the character's personality. Youonly get to play as one character this time too. and its more action oriented.

I dont know about you, but to me, everything about that has been a complete turn off.

Lightning took a step back in XIII-2 and focus more on Serah and Noel. And lightning accepted the sacrifice of serah in the end (the only good thing that came out of the game).

But its hard to find any more motivation that Lightning has in LR:FFXIII compared to the personal motives seen in FF13 and 13-2. i think Fleur hit most of the issues and strengths.

Although i wouldn't consider the "dress barbie system" being well received as a strength. TO me, this symbolizes everything that's wrong in FF13. that they manage to vomit over previous games. I mean in order to truly appreciate these games, you'd have to Play FF13 to the end and enjoy both story and gameplay and then completely forget about 13 (in the sense that the characters motives and feelings, and other things that made up the game for what it was) in order to play 13-2 (a game that just screws with the other characters personalities a bit). And i'm guessing for LR:FFXIII, you would have to do the exact same thing considering they advertise this to those who never played FF13 or 13-2.

It just shows how sad 13 series is....sure individually, one could say "yeah their all decent games". but the sad fact of it is, that we can't unless you don't really care about 13 you just find it "decent"or "moderately enjoyable". Why is that? well lets look at it this way, FF13 sets a fairly decent ending, but FF13-2 changes the ending in a really dumb way. 13-2 ending sets for a new world sort of speak, but in LR:FF13, it sets several years AFTER.

so their beginnings and endings don't line up....if anyone would want FF13-4, then they would be wanting yet another FF13 game that screws with the player by saying "i know you saw that ending..but we're going to make a story completely irrelevant". its a constant pattern in FF13 series.

SO those who had mixed feelings over FF13-2, its going to get worst because the pattern repeats. i genuinely believe ppl here WILL be returning their games.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I think it really depends though....lets look at it this way: many people might buy FF15 more than FF13, why? it really depends on what they reveal about the game and what gets the people wanting it. keep in mind 13-2 and LR had a significant amount of PR. i agree that maybe it's not as biggest as it could've been due to the time it was released, but we've seen PS4 sell extremely well (granted worldwide, but still considered a success for worldwide)

So far LR has been about somehow bringing back all the characters previously seen (except for the irrelevant ones), somehow in this new world (so we're going to forget about everything that happened in XIII and XIII-2) and the main focus of the gameplay is costumes. Not only costumes, but costumes that don't fit the character's personality. Youonly get to play as one character this time too. and its more action oriented.

I dont know about you, but to me, everything about that has been a complete turn off.

Lightning took a step back in XIII-2 and focus more on Serah and Noel. And lightning accepted the sacrifice of serah in the end (the only good thing that came out of the game).

But its hard to find any more motivation that Lightning has in LR:FFXIII compared to the personal motives seen in FF13 and 13-2. i think Fleur hit most of the issues and strengths.

Although i wouldn't consider the "dress barbie system" being well received as a strength. TO me, this symbolizes everything that's wrong in FF13. that they manage to vomit over previous games. I mean in order to truly appreciate these games, you'd have to Play FF13 to the end and enjoy both story and gameplay and then completely forget about 13 (in the sense that the characters motives and feelings, and other things that made up the game for what it was) in order to play 13-2 (a game that just screws with the other characters personalities a bit). And i'm guessing for LR:FFXIII, you would have to do the exact same thing considering they advertise this to those who never played FF13 or 13-2.

It just shows how sad 13 series is....sure individually, one could say "yeah their all decent games". but the sad fact of it is, that we can't unless you don't really care about 13 you just find it "decent"or "moderately enjoyable". Why is that? well lets look at it this way, FF13 sets a fairly decent ending, but FF13-2 changes the ending in a really dumb way. 13-2 ending sets for a new world sort of speak, but in LR:FF13, it sets several years AFTER.

so their beginnings and endings don't line up....if anyone would want FF13-4, then they would be wanting yet another FF13 game that screws with the player by saying "i know you saw that ending..but we're going to make a story completely irrelevant". its a constant pattern in FF13 series.

SO those who had mixed feelings over FF13-2, its going to get worst because the pattern repeats. i genuinely believe ppl here WILL be returning their games.

I still don't think it means the game is bad. Bad promotion maybe, but until you've played the game you don't know for sure it wouldn't be good. Just like you don't know you'll like it. I thought I'd like XIII, but I absolutely did not. Because of that and the promotion for XIII-2 I thought I'd dislike that one too, but I ended up loving it. And until you've bought the game you don't know if it's actually what you think it is or not. So I still say that initial sales don't show how good a game is, they only show how well it's being perceived regarding its promotion.

 

[Starships]

I don't think initial sales are indicative of how good a game is. After all nobody knows if they'll enjoy it until after they've already purchased and played it.

Yes and no

I mean FF 9 had low sales but that's one of the best games in the Final Fantasy series, but because that LR is a 3rd parter it means that not many people as SE assumed enjoy Lightning and/ or FF 13 saga.

FF 13- oooh a new Final Fantasy I will buy this because I like the series, it's different, but they always are & it looks linear but I'm sure that it will open up later on, take my money SE

FF 13- 2- oooh Final Fantasy 13-2 and it fixes up what was awful about the original game, I'll give it chance, take my money SE

LR- Fuck this shit

 

[Razberry Knight]

I still don't think it means the game is bad. Bad promotion maybe, but until you've played the game you don't know for sure it wouldn't be good. Just like you don't know you'll like it. I thought I'd like XIII, but I absolutely did not. Because of that and the promotion for XIII-2 I thought I'd dislike that one too, but I ended up loving it. And until you've bought the game you don't know if it's actually what you think it is or not. So I still say that initial sales don't show how good a game is, they only show how well it's being perceived regarding its promotion.

. As RPGs story is a key aspect of tthe games.

The fact is it shows how little ppl care. And it also shows how well received the. Previous game had. Xiii didn't even received half of its initial sales when itt came to 13-2.