Serious The Rapture.........Do you believe it will happen?

[Roland_Deschain]

Well astronam all I can tell you....

You are right...might does not make right, but if the might happens to be the beginning of all men, I might be willing to consider that the might is more right than I can uderstand(no matter what god it may be)...Heaven and Hell would be above my head in that situation.

To say you care about heaven is not to say you do not care about the world, its just all the reason more to care.(we could use a couple more reasons.)

And the people who believe in the rapture are the people who follow the bible, which the bible states there will be fairness. I do not know why others would think there not be....no point in being a bible thumper if your gonna do it half assed.

There is nothing wrong with wishful thinking hehe

You put a lot of reliance the facts of mankind whom despite the time given have never been able to live together without fear, or paranoia. Granted religion might have been a large cause to it....excuses are just a weakness we have. If a god ever did present itself, I would not fear the change, but look for hope in a new understanding.

Mankind is never going to have the answers to everything, if we only believe in facts than that is all we will ever have is a system based on what we want...selfish as well. The bad thing is you will have no control over what is being proven...I think even if there was proof of religion found, it would be kept secret from us. Do you think claiming that we have the one "true" god would stop war with religious crazy countries? It would only provoke it. The government would never tell us of such proof....we would never even know.

Like I said before I am not religious. I dont follow any religion, but I have faith...that there is something turning the screws of the universe that you me will never be able to know or understand. wether it may be a god or superior race among the universe) you will never see me attack an idea that I do not understand, nor will you see me disregard possibilities just because "humans" failed to prove it. Humans fail at so many things in this world, I highly doubt they will succeed in proving that they are not the superior beings.

 

[der Astronom]

Well astronam all I can tell you....

You are right...might does not make right, but if the might happens to be the beginning of all men, I might be willing to consider that the might is more right than I can uderstand(no matter what god it may be)...Heaven and Hell would be above my head in that situation.

Then you are making an exception for might makes right, which means if the might is significant enough, then you'll concede that it's right. And that's not any different from believing might makes right.

See, the problem here is that I have no other frame of reference for determining what I believe to be right, and what isn't. I don't believe there's a good reason for relying on other people's or being's judgment either because they can be wrong. I might be wrong too, but this all has to do with being wrong even if you were being logical than to be right for sheer dumb luck.

To say you care about heaven is not to say you do not care about the world, its just all the reason more to care.(we could use a couple more reasons.)

And I would appreciate it if you were to elaborate on those. Because I don't see any good reason why you would have to care about the world now if you only cared about heaven unless you believed god asked you to (which is not any different from only caring about heaven because god could just as well not ask you to care about the world, which I believe there are a few verses in the bible that hint at it).

And the people who believe in the rapture are the people who follow the bible, which the bible states there will be fairness. I do not know why others would think there not be....no point in being a bible thumper if your gonna do it half assed.

It's because a fundamentalist creationist has a different concept of fairness than other Christians do. To them, it's fair that non believers suffer an eternal torment in hell, homosexuals are denied rights, women are denied any rights for abortion and children should be taught creationism in schools. It's fair to them that god gets to tell us what to do, even if it means killing your own children. I do not complain about the bible for no good reason at all; there are many different angles in which I could take my bible bashing. It's ambiguous, and it's being treated like it isn't just literature, people use it for morality where it shouldn't be used as such, it's historically questionable in some sections, the authors are questionable, and there are myriads of contradictions. I'd have no problems with it if people treated it like just another fairytale. But quite frankly, people believe every word of it, and they don't agree with what it means, and it's the most commonly used (and worst) justification for either god or morality.

There is nothing wrong with wishful thinking hehe

Actually, if you care about the truth, then wishful thinking is not a good thing. Because wishful thinking in no way represents the truth, and confusing one with the other does not get us any closer to the truth. Wishful thinking may be comforting, but for anyone seeking truth, it does absolutely nothing.

You put a lot of reliance the facts of mankind whom despite the time given have never been able to live together without fear, or paranoia. Granted religion might have been a large cause to it....excuses are just a weakness we have. If a god ever did present itself, I would not fear the change, but look for hope in a new understanding.

Having facts at our fingertips does not cause our fears or paranoia to disappear. I don't think I suggested that, and having facts doesn't mean I'm not aware that there are things out there we don't know, and some things we will never get around to discovering. But I also happen to think that with the advent of science, we are less afraid of the world than we used to be. Sure, there is still crime and bad things in this world, but I also happen to think there's much less crime and bad things happening than there used to be.
If the Christian god did exist, he'd have a lot of explaining to do.

Mankind is never going to have the answers to everything, if we only believe in facts than that is all we will ever have is a system based on what we want...selfish as well.

As I told you in a separate thread, the idea of selfishness is completely redundant. With or without facts, we would be selfish anyways. Without facts, religious people are still selfishly searching for heaven. And with facts, they do the exact same thing.
The problem is, we cannot have a system based off of anything else other than facts because it is the only consistent thing we have that we can rely on. We cannot rely on faith because it is inconsistent among other people, and because it is logically unsound. A society based off of faith will have people being accused of crimes they did not commit. Such a society can condemn people for no good reason other than belief.
And conversely, I think that facts and desires are completely separate. We often discover things that are true that are not easy to understand or may be painful to know. Facts do not conform to our comfort; wishful thinking does.

The bad thing is you will have no control over what is being proven...I think even if there was proof of religion found, it would be kept secret from us. Do you think claiming that we have the one "true" god would stop war with religious crazy countries? It would only provoke it. The government would never tell us of such proof....we would never even know.

And I never made such a claim. However, since you're claiming that if there ever was a proof for religion, that it would be kept a secret, I would like to know what you find so convincing about that, because I don't find that convincing at all.
I don't claim to know what will stop wars between religiously governed countries. I happen to believe that there is a possibility that we can get along if we cared about the world, but not all of us do, and there's really not much that can be done about the mentality of these people. They'll probably always exist.

Like I said before I am not religious. I dont follow any religion, but I have faith...that there is something turning the screws of the universe that you me will never be able to know or understand. wether it may be a god or superior race among the universe) you will never see me attack an idea that I do not understand, nor will you see me disregard possibilities just because "humans" failed to prove it. Humans fail at so many things in this world, I highly doubt they will succeed in proving that they are not the superior beings.

Ideas that are not clearly stated need to be attacked. God, for example, is one of them. No one can give a consistent or clear definition of a god that can be made observable and tested, and yet, people still build their arguments off of the existence of a god they can barely define. People making vague claims about assertions is not good justification for anything, so their assertions should be attacked. If you don't understand something, perhaps you can attack* it in the hopes that you will either understand it better or discover that the argument wasn't very good in the first place. I just happen to think leaving an idea alone quite simply because you don't understand it is ignorance**.

I don't know if you thought I thought we were superior, but I'm not one of those people. I am aware that we make mistakes all the time, and that we have unreliable senses. It's the exact same reason why we have science. It's because we rely on mutually obtained observations which are consistent, no matter who does it or how. Science doesn't always get it right, but having science is better than wallowing in self pity because we fail at lots of things.

*Now when I say "attack", this can be done in as simple a form as asking a question about it--this is often what we do during rebuttals as well. Perhaps there is something you don't understand about an idea because it doesn't make sense.

**See the other thread where I made a comment about ignorance. I don't consider ignorance to be an insult.

 

[Æon Flux]

I think your correct with you saying this about 2012, however I don't believe its some kind of sickness that people are expecting or halfway desire for it too happen. I know you do not believe in god, but that doesnt mean other people do not. Have you considered it through the eyes of a truely religious person who believes that the rapture is an instant ticket to heaven? If you really do accept jesus and it actually does happen than the rest of us would be the fools stuck choosing sides amongst chaos. Also I believe many people would want to see it for confirmation that religious beliefs were not in vain. Lets face it, Christians have been getting run into the ground and stomped all over by skeptics over the last 2 decades, the falling of religion is due to the cynics pushing those people around when they actually want to give faith a chance. Either way I am not religious but I am however open minded to what I can not understand. I think that if the world does end, it would mean a lot more to see it fall under god instead of our own destruction of the planet or mayan prediciton.



Everyone as I said before, the rapture is not depicted as a one day event. It is supposed to be from point A to point B. Point A is May 21st (Judgement day) and point B is October 21st (End of the world).

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this supposed to represent the time when god will wipe out all of his followers and take them to heaven leaving all of the godless or evil people on the earth? And the Anti christ will rise up and build an army of those people. And the second coming of Christ will happen and they will wage a 2nd war for heaven on Earth?

When Rapture comes to my mind it is this situation that pops in there. And honestly its the modern age, if the Anti Christ did rise up...do you think he would admit his identity?...or perhaps even try to camaflauge as a wordly leader. It is an intresting premis but do not read too much into this.

I think it makes for good movies and books. (southland tales, The stand) but honestly would pretty much suck if it happened eh.

And obviously your more serious about this than I am because you seem to believe I believe in anything regarding this "Rapture" You can point out to me your "facts" but I dont care for them in the leaste as I dont particularly care if its true or not.
If it so happens it does If it dosent It dosent .
I was simply stating in MY way MY belief about it.

 

[Harlequin]

That makes sense, but to the best of our knowledge, the Bible is fiction.

The Bible makes a genuine assertion on the concept of truth, an assertion that no one has been able to prove nor disprove.

der Astronom

Anyway, the bottom line is religion isn't only subject to the methods of science, but the realms of philosophy aswell, something our society's curriculum has pretty much abandoned in recent years and - for practical reasons, perhaps rightly so.

 

[timthebigone]

I believe that the rapture will happen, but no one will be able to predict when it will happen. God did not when tell his son, so how would people say that the rapture will happen and everyone gets ready, then the predict day comes and nothing happens.

This is how I look at it the rapture can happen in this seconds, or millions and millions and millions years. No one knows but God and he is coming to come when the time is right.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

And obviously your more serious about this than I am because you seem to believe I believe in anything regarding this "Rapture" You can point out to me your "facts" but I dont care for them in the leaste as I dont particularly care if its true or not.
If it so happens it does If it dosent It dosent .
I was simply stating in MY way MY belief about it.

I was just using you as an example of many, as I said I do not buy it either, was just pointed out what the majority of the believers believe. Sorry if you took offense, only the first sentance was meant for you, more or less it was meant for everyone.




Astronam I believe we have reached an endpass. We have similiar beliefs just different perspectives or philosophys. I just feel sometimes the attack of ideas can become just as dangerous as the ideas that cause others to attack. I allow people to be religious for whatever religion they have because perhaps its all that some people do have. And I am not a very advocate religious debater from the start. I just like to always speculate things I do not know and read between the lines, or even craft my own theorys. In a way I just like to think outside the box at all angles...makes me more flexible to whatever happens in my life....so cheers to mutual disagreements

 

[der Astronom]

Astronam I believe we have reached an endpass. We have similiar beliefs just different perspectives or philosophys. I just feel sometimes the attack of ideas can become just as dangerous as the ideas that cause others to attack. I allow people to be religious for whatever religion they have because perhaps its all that some people do have. And I am not a very advocate religious debater from the start. I just like to always speculate things I do not know and read between the lines, or even craft my own theorys. In a way I just like to think outside the box at all angles...makes me more flexible to whatever happens in my life....so cheers to mutual disagreements

I don't actually mind if it makes people think or if it causes them to be critical of other ideas. I don't hold any particular idea to be more sacred than any other; they're all subject to scrutiny. I just think some ideas simply work better than others because criticisms against them are logically flawed.
Likewise, I think that we should be free to attack and criticize religion, but that doesn't mean I think people have to stop believing in religion. Belief in religion is a personal choice; an attack on religion is an attempt at awareness.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Belief in religion is a personal choice; an attack on religion is an attempt at awareness.

That you must admit is an opinion though. What awareness are you trying to create?...The awareness that "you" think these things are not real? Its awareness through your perspective, through the christians perspective perhaps they preech to non believers in an effort to create awareness as well.

 

[Stoic Hero]

I find the idea of a rapture plausible, but ultimately, unlikely.

Reasoning:

Jesus made it fairly clear in the Bible that no one knows the date or the hour of his return. This fits in well with the whole rapture concept, except when you take a look at Revelations. Pretty much the whole book describes Christ's triumphant return and him bringing an army of angels to destroy those who have risen against him. He also makes it pretty clear he's only coming back once. Seems hard to do that when he quietly whisks away all the Christians. What would be the point? We already know that there will be worse times in the future, and if those times have already passed, the point of the Rapture is moot because its whole premise is that it saves all the Christians from experiencing the horrors of the apocalypse.

The rapture is vaguely hinted at in the Bible, and by vaguely I mean only if you read it that way.

"1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."

If you'll notice, Thess 4:17 says "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together"
And that's pretty much how the whole rapture bit started.

Look, arguing about the Rapture is pointless without context. Specifically, WHEN the Rapture occurs. Because looking forward to the Rapture itself is worthless if it happens after all the terrible things come to pass. If it happens before then, and saves all the Christians from suffering, THEN it becomes a big deal. But like I said, it's all about context, and most Christians subscribe to the belief that it will save them from the suffering.

I, however, feel that the Rapture will happen after the end times. When Jesus comes back at the very end, for the last time, to finish everything. So the Rapture doesn't really mean much to me. Death is the only way to truly be free from suffering (or the beginning of endless suffering, depending on where you stand), and death is the only way to be reunited with God BEFORE the end times.

Luckily, I believe the end times are a long way off. Who knows? It could happen in our lifetime, but I seriously doubt it, as many, many more prophesies have to come true before it comes. Israel becoming a sovereign nation and the numerous earthquakes, tornadoes, tsunamis, etc are a good start, though.

 

[der Astronom]

That you must admit is an opinion though. What awareness are you trying to create?...The awareness that "you" think these things are not real? Its awareness through your perspective, through the christians perspective perhaps they preech to non believers in an effort to create awareness as well.

It does at least one of two things:

That religion is not so sacred that it can never be attacked. Why are we allowed to make fun of politicians or celebrities or other popular people, but we can't make fun of religion? There's absolutely no reason why we can't make fun of religion. Freedom of speech does not violate our right to do so, and people being offended is an attempt at "shut up, that's why" if people use it as a reason why we shouldn't attack religion. Of course celebrities get offended when we make fun of them. Of course politicians and certain political groups get offended when we make fun of them. But is that any reason to stop doing it? Definitely not. And I think we should hold the same standards for religion as well.

Secondly, atheists and heathens have already been attacked enough times in history. It's getting old and pointless. Religion is not used to being attacked because it's been living inside this bubble where it can't possibly be hurt. That religion is being criticized is a recent development; that we have freedom of speech allows people to be aware of what people find wrong with religion. Centuries ago, you couldn't even do this. So it does raise awareness anyways.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

It does at least one of two things:

That religion is not so sacred that it can never be attacked. Why are we allowed to make fun of politicians or celebrities or other popular people, but we can't make fun of religion? There's absolutely no reason why we can't make fun of religion. Freedom of speech does not violate our right to do so, and people being offended is an attempt at "shut up, that's why" if people use it as a reason why we shouldn't attack religion. Of course celebrities get offended when we make fun of them. Of course politicians and certain political groups get offended when we make fun of them. But is that any reason to stop doing it? Definitely not. And I think we should hold the same standards for religion as well.

Secondly, atheists and heathens have already been attacked enough times in history. It's getting old and pointless. Religion is not used to being attacked because it's been living inside this bubble where it can't possibly be hurt. That religion is being criticized is a recent development; that we have freedom of speech allows people to be aware of what people find wrong with religion. Centuries ago, you couldn't even do this. So it does raise awareness anyways.

I never said it was wrong to question or attack religion if you should choose. I merely said that I do not. I was just questioning if you are trying to raise awarness that people should be allowed to question it, or are you trying to raise awareness that it is bullshit. I am am an advent to questioning don't get me wrong, but I am not an advent to pressing my beliefs. Hence the question that it is a matter of opinion. If you are questioning religious people to make them weather other peoples opinions and show that there is nothing wrong with questioning religion than that is right on. However if you do it in an attempt to make religious followers disband their own beliefs or faith than would that not make you any different than missionarys knocking on peoples doors?

 

[der Astronom]

I never said it was wrong to question or attack religion if you should choose. I merely said that I do not. I was just questioning if you are trying to raise awarness that people should be allowed to question it, or are you trying to raise awareness that it is bullshit. I am am an advent to questioning don't get me wrong, but I am not an advent to pressing my beliefs. Hence the question that it is a matter of opinion. If you are questioning religious people to make them weather other peoples opinions and show that there is nothing wrong with questioning religion than that is right on. However if you do it in an attempt to make religious followers disband their own beliefs or faith than would that not make you any different than missionarys knocking on peoples doors?

I don't actually know of too many atheists who are arguing only because they want religious people to stop being religious. It would be nice, but if they don't, we can understand that it's a personal choice people choose to make. The least we can do is inform them of what we think of their religion, why we think it's harming society, and why we don't believe in it. And telling people you think it's bullshit doesn't mean I'm trying to convert anyone; maybe that's how I actually feel about it.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

I don't actually know of too many atheists who are arguing only because they want religious people to stop being religious. It would be nice, but if they don't, we can understand that it's a personal choice people choose to make. The least we can do is inform them of what we think of their religion, why we think it's harming society, and why we don't believe in it. And telling people you think it's bullshit doesn't mean I'm trying to convert anyone; maybe that's how I actually feel about it.

Well I have to go out on a limb here and say that not everyones religion harms people, not sure if it has harmed you in a effective way. Its the difference between a man who has a gun for protection or a man who has a gun to kill someone. I personally have yet to feel the harm done to me personally. And I know it is debatable but "in my opinion" I feel like I am from a strong country that built itself through many a challenging road and that its peoples faith in god was one thing that guided them to where they sit now, just a thing, and its only how I feel. In my opinion I gain more from religion being around than I do not. Honestly everytime a loved one passes away I have a slight comfort in thinking that perhaps there is another unknown road, Regardless what religion it may be if there is even a correct one. I think that organized religion also gives hope to even the idea of a god or superior force, even if we don't get it right. Sometimes I believe it is good for people not to assume they are they are on top of the universe. Who is to say this world would have more "order" without religion and perhaps not less.

And if you respond to the gun metaphor with, "would it just be safer without a gun alltogether." Well all I can say is that the gun can be used for hunting, just like the religion can be used to keep a family from evil even if its a lie, can bring comfort to those sad, and bring hope to those lost. Religion can be viewed as a tool, just like a gun. The difference comes to the person, if religion was not used as excuse for violence, then something else would be.

 

[der Astronom]

Well I have to go out on a limb here and say that not everyones religion harms people, not sure if it has harmed you in a effective way.

No, I suppose not. But what I am getting at is that there seems to be a great ignorance about the harm religion can cause. People don't seem to see that because they've been trained not to criticize it because it's too "personal".

Its the difference between a man who has a gun for protection or a man who has a gun to kill someone. I personally have yet to feel the harm done to me personally. And I know it is debatable but "in my opinion" I feel like I am from a strong country that built itself through many a challenging road and that its peoples faith in god was one thing that guided them to where they sit now, just a thing, and its only how I feel. In my opinion I gain more from religion being around than I do not.

And on the other hand, there are lots of serious problems religion has caused. Homosexuals can't get married because religious people have an unusual opinion of them (thanks to what their religion says). People have bombed and vandalized abortion clinics because of their religion. Stem cell research was hindered for awhile because certain of the religious opinions of certain people. We didn't get rid of slavery because religion existed; we got rid of it in spite of it. The founding fathers didn't create the US on religious principles, but on secular ones. And because religion has caused bad things to happen, I can't credit it with anything good it has done without considering the harm it has caused. So if it disappeared or it never existed, I wouldn't be upset over it.

In general, believing something that you don't know and can't prove or support with evidence is dangerous. You are asserting something to be true when you could just as well be wrong, and it doesn't help us if we cared about the truth. It's even worse if you feel you have to assert these beliefs on other people who have no good reason for accepting these beliefs, which is what some religions do.

Honestly everytime a loved one passes away I have a slight comfort in thinking that perhaps there is another unknown road, Regardless what religion it may be if there is even a correct one. I think that organized religion also gives hope to even the idea of a god or superior force, even if we don't get it right. Sometimes I believe it is good for people not to assume they are they are on top of the universe. Who is to say this world would have more "order" without religion and perhaps not less.

Well, sure it would. We wouldn't have so many people relying on things that seem comforting, but don't reflect reality. I'm not denying that some people find religion comforting, or that it can calm them down, but that would only be if religion were personal, and not public. That's why separation of church and state exists.

And if you respond to the gun metaphor with, "would it just be safer without a gun alltogether." Well all I can say is that the gun can be used for hunting, just like the religion can be used to keep a family from evil even if its a lie, can bring comfort to those sad, and bring hope to those lost. Religion can be viewed as a tool, just like a gun. The difference comes to the person, if religion was not used as excuse for violence, then something else would be.

And if there was no religion, then there's just one thing less that causes these problems. I don't tell people that religion is the only source of harm in the world, or that getting rid of religion means we will have peace. It just means there's one less thing that causes these problems. When religion is used to govern a country, it fails. When it's used to make decisions in life, it fails. When it's used to discern truth from falsehoods, it fails. It fails at a lot of things that apply to society and people as a whole, and if the only thing it doesn't fail at is providing some people with the illusion that everything is alright, then that's the only thing it should be doing, and only for the people that find that helpful. Nothing else.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Well astronam most of what you said is debatable, or maybe its just your perspective. I do know that religion causes harm, but it easily offers good as well. You say it fails if you make life decisions based upon it...perhaps that is your view, but not the view of a man addicted to drugs, or who is just messed up, honestly religion can pull some of the most harmed souls out of the river and back onto the ground, I have seen it happen. I know there is the seperation of state and chruch, but that doesnt change the fact the my home country was established by a generally religious people, and its the religion in the peoples hearts that caused them to make certain actions in life and not just on paper. I think its safe to say America would not be the same without it. As for abortion and homosexuality, people would be against it anyways. People are born with opposing sex organs, and life is not meant to end before it has begun, people are going to feel these things with religion or without it. Even if the ratio changes, being agaisnt it will still be more favorable, I don't think you can deny that. Honestly I am not agaisn't homosexuallity only because we have population problems as it is, and I am agaisnt abortion depending on the situation, so I am pro choice. Religion is merely a puppet excuse for those willing to abuse it to their gain.

And as far as I am concerned, most of religion is private and not public, and even if it is public...you do not have to attend. My point is that just because some people will use religion as an excuse to meet their agenda, it is not right to destroy and shoot it down for all of the people who use it to enrich their lives and hurt nobody. We might as well make all guns, cars, and beer all illegal if that were the case. As long as people do not push their idea of god at me, than I won't press my idea of "god" at them.

You see personally I am as far from christian as possible, yet I do know something about it. I grew up going to church on sundays, I used to attend a youth group and even in college attended a 3 day get away called YATEC which is a more hardcore christian get away, I didn't even believe in god when I attended this. I have seen the potential for love when orchastrated the correct way, the affection for family and even well being of those you do not know, I have felt it even if it was not god I was feeling. And I have felt the pain religion can cause. Once again the blame falls to an evil man and not an evil religion.

Haha we should change the name of this thread to "Religion...more value or harm?" We have grown a little off topic I think =P

 

[Donald Trump]

I'm not going to read all the way through this thread, I don't have the time nor the patience. But most religious people don't believe in the Rapture, it's only those wierdo Evangelical batshit insane semi-Christian offshoots that believe in the idea of a Rapture in which everyone good gets sucked to be with God.
Do I believe in the Rapture? No. I think the idea is incredibly stupid.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

I'm not going to read all the way through this thread, I don't have the time nor the patience. But most religious people don't believe in the Rapture, it's only those wierdo Evangelical batshit insane semi-Christian offshoots that believe in the idea of a Rapture in which everyone good gets sucked to be with God.
Do I believe in the Rapture? No. I think the idea is incredibly stupid.

Actually I think most christians or catholics do believe in it, some of them even posted in this thread, although I am aware you didn't read through it. I think that they believe it will happen but do not believe that mankind is ever going to be able to predict when or how it is going to happen. So most of them do not believe in the rumors of it created.

 

[der Astronom]

Well astronam most of what you said is debatable, or maybe its just your perspective. I do know that religion causes harm, but it easily offers good as well. You say it fails if you make life decisions based upon it...perhaps that is your view, but not the view of a man addicted to drugs, or who is just messed up, honestly religion can pull some of the most harmed souls out of the river and back onto the ground, I have seen it happen.

Well, religion is the excuse people use for faith healing and denying seeing the doctor. I have seen it happen too. Parents refuse to bring their children to see a doctor because of their religion. Their children could easily have been cured if they went to see a doctor, but instead, their children suffer for a long time, and may even have died because of it. And some religious families are harsh towards people who either change their religion or become atheists; they make it their business to care what other people believe, and it has torn apart relationships and families.
What you have described about helping drug addicts or drunk people is to me the same idea as giving people the illusion that everything is alright.

I know there is the seperation of state and chruch, but that doesnt change the fact the my home country was established by a generally religious people, and its the religion in the peoples hearts that caused them to make certain actions in life and not just on paper.

If you believe that, then you would also have to believe that everything wrong with America comes from the same idea. Otherwise that would be special pleading.

I think its safe to say America would not be the same without it. As for abortion and homosexuality, people would be against it anyways. People are born with opposing sex organs, and life is not meant to end before it has begun, people are going to feel these things with religion or without it.

This is along the same lines as the arguments religious people make, which is that they think everyone knows and feels god exists; the fact is, I don't claim to know what people are thinking. I just know that some people have been raised to believe everything religion tells them to, or their parents make sure it's the only thing they believe in. And I know because they can be perfectly logical about everything else in life, except for this one area. When you ask someone why they think we shouldn't have abortion, it's usually for reasons related to religion. If you asked them why they were against homosexuality, it's usually the same reason. If you really believe they would be against it anyways, then people would have better arguments than simply because their religion said so. I don't know of many secular arguments against either homosexuality or abortion, and I'm not even asking for good ones.

Even if the ratio changes, being agaisnt it will still be more favorable, I don't think you can deny that.

Actually, I heard that trend is now changing, thanks to people not being so ignorant about religion and openmindedness towards people different from you (ie, homosexuals, transexuals, and all the other folks on the LGBT spectrum) among other things.

Honestly I am not agaisn't homosexuallity only because we have population problems as it is, and I am agaisnt abortion depending on the situation, so I am pro choice. Religion is merely a puppet excuse for those willing to abuse it to their gain.

And that's precisely the problem with religion. It's not even that religion is a scapegoat; if you take a look at the bible, there are actual verses that say homosexuals are sinners.

And as far as I am concerned, most of religion is private and not public, and even if it is public...you do not have to attend.

If you think it's private, then people should have no business caring about what religion other people believe in. But that's simply not true; there are plenty of Americans who stop being your friends or harass you to go to church, or think less of you just because you don't belong to the same religion they do. If you think it's private, then religious people have no business trying to push creationism in schools. If you think it's private, religious people have no business telling gays they can't marry, or that abortion and stem cell research must be condemned on account of their religion. If religion were largely private, America would be more like Germany.

My point is that just because some people will use religion as an excuse to meet their agenda, it is not right to destroy and shoot it down for all of the people who use it to enrich their lives and hurt nobody. We might as well make all guns, cars, and beer all illegal if that were the case. As long as people do not push their idea of god at me, than I won't press my idea of "god" at them.

And if you read what I wrote in my last post, you will see that I'm not against people having religion at all. I happen to think life would be better without it, but it is not up to me to decide what people want to believe in. I'm only against religion when it interferes with the lives of other people and potentially causes harm.

You see personally I am as far from christian as possible, yet I do know something about it. I grew up going to church on sundays, I used to attend a youth group and even in college attended a 3 day get away called YATEC which is a more hardcore christian get away, I didn't even believe in god when I attended this. I have seen the potential for love when orchastrated the correct way, the affection for family and even well being of those you do not know, I have felt it even if it was not god I was feeling. And I have felt the pain religion can cause. Once again the blame falls to an evil man and not an evil religion.

I attended church once long ago, and attended some events like these too. I don't know if you're referring to those hardcore Jesus camps because those aren't really enjoyable or induce affection; they're downright creepy and disturbing. However, I have also attended as many secular events, and I don't think that religious events are any more affectionate or loving than any other secular event. Any event that brings people together, and gets them to do things they enjoy has the potential to give people affection and a sense of lovingness. It doesn't matter if it's a religious event or not, so long as you have fun and meet people.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Der astronam

Well finally we have met and endpass, we were way off topic anyhow. I will continue to uphold my following views about it but I appreciate the exchange of ideas. I feel that if parents don't bring their kids to a doctor than it is their fault and not religion, I feel that cutting down abortion and homosexuality drives from the feeling that it is different than normal, not only or even mainly religion, its just the only arguable point besides calling people freaks directly. Also I think gay marraige is enforced for not only religious reasons. I will always believe that people are the problem and not religion. I would rather have criminals and addicts having the illusion of a god to make them better than having them continue business as normal. And as I posted I said religion is just "one" thing that inspired our country to where it is, freedom and democracy are others. Its always possible to find the problems and benifits of anything, its just the viewpoints we take as individuals. We have similiar beliefs but just different concerns.

I am willing to acknowledge that religion can cause harm, are you willing to acknowledge that it can cause good? We live in a world where almost every corner was shaped and influenced by god or religion, of course we strike agaisnt the problems it breeds but we cannot forget the good it has brought either. People have a very biased ability to notice problems but dismiss the good.

 

[Donald Trump]

Actually I think most christians or catholics do believe in it, some of them even posted in this thread, although I am aware you didn't read through it. I think that they believe it will happen but do not believe that mankind is ever going to be able to predict when or how it is going to happen. So most of them do not believe in the rumors of it created.

I lied, I did read the thread, I just did not read any post by Sum41sgruj or any post in which he was quoted. No one in this thread has said they believed in the Rapture. The vast majority of christians do not believe in it. They may believe that they will be with god in heaven one day, but suggesting that they believe that they will be sucked up to be with god or anything like that is wrong. Some people may believe in it, but most people have a very poor understanding of what they actually believe. No one but wierdo sects believed that there is a rapture in which all god's favourites join him in heaven.