The Nature of Prayer

[Jquestionmark]

Personally, I think you should do whatever you want on your free time, so if you want to spend a prayer by insulting a religion, by all means go right ahead.

What I have a problem with is people coming here and telling people that we should spend more time praying a certain way while not being aware that their own prayers are done out of selfishness, either because they are asking for something, or because they are doing it for their religion. If you want to pray, and if it means being selfish, no one is stopping you from doing it. But to come on here and tell people that we need to pray in a way that serves your own religion and call it selfless, when you can actually be doing more for people besides praying? That's just absurd.

Actually, this brings out a question that's directly relevant to the OP's questions (since how the "Divine" feels about our actions is asked): How would the Divine (should it exist) feel about you using your energies on prayer instead of actually making a difference?

Going from what I know about the christian god, he probably loves all the prayer because he's jealous and gunning for worship.

Other pantheons are a little harder to decipher (since they contain a large number of gods). Most of them seem to appreciate mortals with some balls. The times they do answer prayers seems to be directly related to either their own interests, or how awesome the mortal was BEFORE the prayer came. They only really help if they're in the mood or the mortal actually deserves it (why would the gods do anything for a man that does nothing for himself?). Seems like the "Divine" would be pissed that you're yammering in their ear and getting nothing done at the same time.

As far as thanking them, the stories imply they're not directly responsible for a whole lot (unless you consider their purview something they're directly responsible for everything in), so I imagine they'd mostly be amused that they're getting all this thanks for things they aren't even doing.

Personally, I'm not into the whole prayer thing: I prefer to be selfish in ways I know will get results.

What about the rest of you - don't you think the "Divine" might just as easily be mad about you praying as pleased?

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Well 90% of the time, one is not praying for any augmentation of themselves or their lives. That is only when guidance is needed for one to undergo trials.
Most of the time, prayer is actually selfless and towards praising God and praying for others. There are no rules to prayer except to pray. It's healthy for any individual to put it into speech. God doesn't want praise specifically, He just wants assurance that your not an asshole and running off with what He gave you. Such is what should be the construct of any god.
I find it amazing that you all think that god cannot be benevolent and be authoritive over His own creation, when it's actually extremely necessary seeing the asinine actions of man.

 

[Jquestionmark]

Well 90% of the time, one is not praying for any augmentation of themselves or their lives. That is only when guidance is needed for one to undergo trials.

Interesting statistic, but do you have and actual support for it? Do you actually have any statistical information on what prayer is devoted to? I'd be interested in seeing it, and it would bring a lot to this thread.

Most of the time, prayer is actually selfless and towards praising God and praying for others. There are no rules to prayer except to pray. It's healthy for any individual to put it into speech. God doesn't want praise specifically, He just wants assurance that your not an asshole and running off with what He gave you. Such is what should be the construct of any god.

I'm not so sure about that. The greek gods, for example, don't really seem to need any assurance that humans are doing just what they (the gods) want. And why should they - humans have free will. In fact, if free will is a good thing given to you by a god, wouldn't they be glad you're using it regardless of what you're using it for? Wouldn't submitting to their will (by praying to them to tell you what to do, for example) devalue their gift to you?

I find it amazing that you all think that god cannot be benevolent and be authoritive over His own creation, when it's actually extremely necessary seeing the asinine actions of man.

And I'd say it's an asinine action to devote prayer and thanks to a god that's all-knowing and all-powerful (or any god, really) when you could actually be out doing something. I think gods would be pissed about being bothered by prayer more than watching the actions of men towards other men.

 

[Emyunoxious]

What I have a problem with is people coming here and telling people that we should spend more time praying a certain way while not being aware that their own prayers are done out of selfishness, either because they are asking for something, or because they are doing it for their religion. If you want to pray, and if it means being selfish, no one is stopping you from doing it. But to come on here and tell people that we need to pray in a way that serves your own religion and call it selfless, when you can actually be doing more for people besides praying? That's just absurd.

I couldn't agree with you more.

So that this isn't considered a spam comment, while that's all I really wanted to say, I would argue that all actions are, inherently, selfish. Any denial of that is denying yourself.

 

[Dean Winchester]

This thread is about prayer, whether it be to Allah, God, Zoroaster, or the forces of nature.

THREAD RE-OPENED.

You forgot to mention Jebus, Superman and of all beings, the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For the blasphemy of forgetting the FSM, prepare to be smitten by His Noodly Appendage!


Now back on track, I am not the praying type. I remember repeating the prayer my mother taught me over and over again like a broken record. I was already a good kid, had great grades, most people looked at me with high regards, was the pride and joy of my parents, so what else could I ask?

Of course, I was a kid. Now I don't have much to pray for. Sure I am by no means living in paradise, but I like to believe that whatever I have earned is because of my hard work, not because I begged to a supernatural being to do things for me or to get a responsibility off my back.

God, I don't think God (or whoever He/She/It might be though I'll use the more accepted "He") would want us to bash against each other for our differences, but instead He would like us to focus on what's really important: family.

As funny as it might sound, I think God might feel lonely because most of us already failed to understand the true significance of what truly matters in life, and that is unity, peace and family.

How many people have been killed on His Name? No other faction has killed as many people as religion (especially Christianity)... although Hitler came really close to it...but it doesn't count since he claimed God was with him.

I would like to believe there's a God up there or somewhere who only intervenes when it is a life or death situation or if there's really no other choice.

The only thing I've seen myself thanking is for being alive so far.

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

Regarding what god(s) think of prayer, how do you think it/they consider sacrifices? They're quite common in all religions, though some seem to have left them behind, viewing them as barbaric in some fashion.

Do you think god(s) can hear a prayer more clearly, or will pay more attention to a prayer, that uses a sacrifice? Sort of a practical show of faith and determination. Or do you think it's the sincerity of the prayer, or the selflessness?

For that matter, does god(s) hear the plaintive prayers from someone who doesn't believe in that particular religion just as well as those who do?

To me it always seemed logical that if you want a god to do something for you, you need to show your determination and faith.

 

[Jquestionmark]

Regarding what god(s) think of prayer, how do you think it/they consider sacrifices? They're quite common in all religions, though some seem to have left them behind, viewing them as barbaric in some fashion.

I think how the whole sacrifice thing would be viewed depends on the reality of the situation. Basically, I see four different ways it could play out:

1) A Magical Reality - built-in mechanisms in reality actually conduct the power from prayer/sacrifice to the god(s).

2) Mind Over Matter Reality - god(s) don't necessarily exist (they could, but it's not required or discouraged in this scenario), and your willpower conducts prayer/sacrifice (either to the god, or directly changes reality itself).

3) Monotheist Reality - there is only one god, and he is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, etc. (or so it is claimed, we'll go by evidence instead of the claims).

4) Realistic Reality - there are no gods, and no psychic powers.

In scenario 1, the gods would likely be pro sacrifice, seeing as that would give them more power.
In scenario 2, if the gods exist, the sacrifice would increase the amount of willpower you give to them, so it would be good.
Scenario 3 is easily judged by the incredible value christianity places on human sacrifice (see Jesus) and various other instances of sacrifice in the bible (and lets not even get into martyrdom/self-sacrifice).
Scenario 4, there aren't any gods to think anything.

Do you think god(s) can hear a prayer more clearly, or will pay more attention to a prayer, that uses a sacrifice?

Once again, it depends on the scenario.
With 1, the use of sacrifice would theoretically add more power to the act of prayer, getting much more attention from the god for people willing to go all out with the sacrifice.
In 2, either way (gods exist or not), it's better with sacrifice - if there are gods, it gets you far more into the correct mindset and makes your will more focused when sending them prayer, if there are no gods, it gets your will more focused and ready to better inflict your will upon reality.
In 3, Cain and Able is a great example of how god views sacrifice - you need an adequate sacrifice, or your brother will show you up. Jesus makes for an interesting point as well - it apparently only takes one human to dodge punishment for all of mankind's "sins".
In 4, using sacrifice just increases the resource waste from your own time to actual tangible things.

Sort of a practical show of faith and determination. Or do you think it's the sincerity of the prayer, or the selflessness?

Sincerity - seems like that would be a big one. Assuming the god(s) know if you're being honest or not (which often seems to be the case), sincerity would be a big one.
Selflessness - I don't see what this would have to do with prayer being acknowledged by god(s) at all. What do they care if it benefits you or others - you're still asking them to do work.

For that matter, does god(s) hear the plaintive prayers from someone who doesn't believe in that particular religion just as well as those who do?

Do they hear them? Hard to say. Saying that they did, this would be an awesome way for them to get converts. "Aries hasn't been answering your prayers lately? Don't worry, Hachiman has your back. Just send me your prayers and worship, and I'll help you out in the future too." Unfortunately, I imagine gods are busy creatures, and with everyone wanting the gods of war on their side for every fight, things get a little tricky. In the end, machine guns jam less than gods ignore, so it's easy to see why people have turned to technology.

To me it always seemed logical that if you want a god to do something for you, you need to show your determination and faith.

In the same way that a dowry or a prenuptial agreement shows your determination or faith to a father in law to be, sacrificing things to gods would show your determination or faith to them. In fact, if you think about it in the way that you destroy the physical version of the object, but that act of sacrifice sends the soul/spirit of the object to the god(s), then this is a very strong parallel situation.

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

If you don't believe it how can you hate something that you don't think is real? The hypocrisy there is really just... mind blowingly hilarious.

Whether or not God, god, or gods is or are real, it/they are definitely a concept. One that people can believe literally. And you can totally hate a concept or a belief as well as the people who believe in it. Not that you should, or anything, just that you can. God doesn't need to be real for the hatred, as God represents many things, so it's not really hypocritical in that sense.

But to the rest of your disrespectfully crude post

Though your post isn't crude, I would say that yours is also disrespectful. You are targeting an individual rather than a belief or a concept.

Getting past sodomizing yourself with a cross and the ensuing ripples of butthurt (zing!)...

Do they hear them? Hard to say. Saying that they did, this would be an awesome way for them to get converts. "Aries hasn't been answering your prayers lately? Don't worry, Hachiman has your back. Just send me your prayers and worship, and I'll help you out in the future too."

This is actually the problem that I had when I attempted to become religious. When I was young, I noticed tons of people believed in a god or gods of some sort, and I wanted that faith and reassurance too. So I tried many different religions, but most of all I sincerely prayed to each god of the religion I was currently following. None of them ever replied. I didn't feel like I was talking to anyone but myself no matter how hard I tried or focused nor how sincere I was. Despite my sincere effort to follow the one (or multiple) true god(s), my beliefs weren't confirmed.

So I have a question for those who are religious and pray: Does your god respond to you in some way? Do you have that reassurance? And if so, how do they do it? Do you talk with them? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really just do not understand the concept of faith in these terms. It seems utterly crazy to me.

 

[Harlequin]

He wouldn't; the implication is that you're somehow more important to god than everyone else praying for him; all it is is a bunch of people praying to god for the same few selfish reasons, and hoping they'll have a spot in heaven.

Stop wording it as if you know what everyone prays for. Secondly, prayer isn't about importance and acceptance into heaven, you're just making yourself sound bitter towards those who do pray.

This isn't even about what I know. Even if I were a religious person making this statement, that wouldn't even matter; if you're religious, and you're going to criticize a religion because it's based on faith, don't forget that your religion is also.

And so is Atheism, yet you would ironically believe it isn't a belief system and criticise religion on the same grounds.

But because I also happen to be an atheist, I don't have any one particular belief that I criticize more than others; I criticize them all equally on the grounds that they are based on nothing more than faith and can make no claims to truth.

...just like Atheism. Or am I wrong? Are you going to whip out some proof from who knows where?

monotheists insist on believing in this one god, so why do they make an exception for the god they believe in, since there's no particularly strong basis for their belief in their god over all other gods?

That's a bizarre question that would take longer to describe than I'm willingly to devote time to.

Doesn't that apply to yourself as well?

It applys to everyone. The only difference here was that your constant referrals to knowledge weren't something I was doing.

Either we are unsure of everything, and anything we say is possibly logically flawed (ie, end of discussion), or there is some logic to be had in the things we think about, and the only way to discern it is to discuss it mutually with an outer frame of reference. Since saying anything we think about can be logically flawed defeats the whole point of having this discussion, do you have any other point to pick at with regards to religion being logically flawed specifically?

Cute that you would try and flip the dynamic to criticise religion when in fact absolutely everything is subject to this same mode of critique.

But that's the point; it doesn't. Shifting your responsibility onto someone else doesn't absolve you of anything you do wrong; religion just offers you the illusion that it does.
I hate having to bring this up because it's so obviously stupid, but that I'm even talking about religion has nothing to do with what I believe. I happen to have an opinion on religion, and I do, otherwise I couldn't explain to you why I don't believe in religion or follow any of its rules (specifically, Christianity), which may include hypothetical cases of if I were Christian... That is, if god existed, I'd think he's an asshole. That I don't believe in god and that I don't find god to be a particularly shining beacon of morality are for separate reasons; I don't believe in god because I see no good reason for it, and I don't like god because of the way he's been described in the bible.

Fair enough with your views on God, but how on Earth have you come to the conclusion that religion offers you such an illusion?

And transcendence of death isn't even a certainty. Religion in no way supports its validity. Who thought up that bizarre idea?

It's not you're right, but it's certainly less bizarre than revelling in a defeatist attitude.

Thanks for mischaracterizing a group of people you seem to know nothing about.

I don't see how that was a mischaracterisation with regards to the afterlife or lack there of. Making the assertion that you don't believe in the afterlife is neither here nor there - which is entirely what the picture implies.

Well, abolishment of slavery certainly didn't come about because of religion; it existed because it did not condemn it.

So religion doesn't promote equality and freedom? As if there weren't religious groups condemning slavery long before abolition. Not to mention slavery in the US not being the only example.

And the same can be said for attitudes towards homosexuals, gender equality, science, freedom of (from) religion, skepticism in general and stoning people, all of which have either been mentioned and discouraged in the bible, or have been come under attack because of religion inspired by the bible.

Attitudes? You're talking about human beings here not religion.

So clearly, that we even have tolerance of homosexuals, different religions and the like could not have been because of religion, but in spite of it.

I don't know why I bother. Even if I were to provide an argument you would likely ignore it because you seem to have some vendetta and or fixation on religion as a negativity on human history. Why don't you just take a step back and really try and reassess and come to an understanding rather than relentlessly beating spirituality back and trying to win the debate.

 

[der Astronom]

But in this classy post you seem to have written up in response to this thread and God in general(or rather Christianity seeing how you are disrespecting the cross specifically and singling out the cross) you are showing quite a lot of hatred for God and Christians. Why? If you don't believe it how can you hate something that you don't think is real? The hypocrisy there is really just... mind blowingly hilarious.

Do you have to believe Edward Cullen exists in order to hate Twilight?
And I don't believe we hate religion or Christianity (okay, at least I don't), I simply dislike its message and its dishonesty.

But to the rest of your disrespectfully crude post all I have to say is, I'm sorry you get off on disrespecting other people's beliefs. And I'm sorry you make our religion the basis of your entire existence so much so that you spend some of your time everyday to do something so sad. Instead of using your time to do something proactive you sit and defecate on yourself so you can feel sexual pleasure as you disrespect the largest religion in the world... I think it says a lot about who you are as a person. And bud, what conclusion you just gave us all about your character is just a sad one.

Actually, ridicule is an effective way of getting someone to see something if logic doesn't get your point across. Which I believe a lot of us have already tried in this thread and others. Several times.
And disrespecting religion is different from disrespecting a person for choosing to believe something; I can respect people who choose to believe in things I have no respect for; I don't respect them for what they believe, but for who they are. I disrespect religion because I do not like its ideas. So don't take it personally if people dislike religion; it's not meant to be a statement on you if you choose to believe it.

I truly feel sorry for you that you have to belittle yourself to such a sad, sad, action as the one you just acted out in front of everyone in this thread and on this forum.

I feel sorry that you have to make it your business to care what people do on their free time; I wonder if you care what people think. Thinking isn't a crime, and choosing to do something other people don't like (and possibly being disrespectful) on your free time is not a crime.

Stop wording it as if you know what everyone prays for. Secondly, prayer isn't about importance and acceptance into heaven, you're just making yourself sound bitter towards those who do pray.

And the funny thing is, I don't even have to know exactly what it is people pray for. So long as you're asking someone for something when you're praying, it's a selfish act. I am aware that some people pray simply because it makes them happier, but there is at least one verse that promises people rewards (even if it isn't heaven) if you prayed, and others that compel you to do it because god commanded it, and anyone who wants to go to heaven would probably do what god tells them to. And if you weren't even the slightest bit selfish, you'd probably have less of a reason to pray.

And so is Atheism, yet you would ironically believe it isn't a belief system and criticise religion on the same grounds.

And that's where atheism is different from religion because it is not religion; it's the lack of religion. I don't have to justify my atheism anymore than I have to justify the existence of darkness, or the cold; it's simply a non stance I take on the existence of god(s) in lack of evidence.

...just like Atheism. Or am I wrong? Are you going to whip out some proof from who knows where?

No, and anyone who tries to is being absurd; atheism isn't based off of proof of anything; it exists precisely because there is no evidence for the myriad of other gods that exist out there. If we have no evidence for any god, which position do you think we should take?

That's a bizarre question that would take longer to describe than I'm willingly to devote time to.

Maybe you can start by answering why you reject every single god out there except the Christian one, since I think that's what you believe?

It applys to everyone. The only difference here was that your constant referrals to knowledge weren't something I was doing.

But you are making knowledge claims to your model in the first place. If you are so sure that we can't know anything, how is that even certain?

And we use proof by contradiction all the time, so I can't see why starting with an assumption means we can't ever know anything.

I also happen to believe we can't know anything 100%; I don't think I said I believed in absolute knowledge; we can only know things to a certain degree of certainty.

Cute that you would try and flip the dynamic to criticise religion when in fact absolutely everything is subject to this same mode of critique.

I never actually believed your model completely because I don't find it compelling--according to your view, there's nothing to talk about because you're not sure about anything at all, but a few pages later, you're still here. Truthfully, you could have said you weren't sure about anything on any debate thread where fact is concerned, and if that's your perspective, then you're not contributing anything worthy of discussion. If you think we can't know anything for sure, and we shouldn't be talking about specifics, then maybe you should make a separate thread about it. But until then, I think we should stick to talking about the specific issues with religion as it relates to this thread.

Fair enough with your views on God, but how on Earth have you come to the conclusion that religion offers you such an illusion?

It's actually really easy to see. Let's just say you go and smash a stranger's car window for no good reason. You're responsible for paying for the damages you purposely caused to the guy's car. But now your neighbor absolves you of your responsibility by paying for the guy's damages instead of you. However, just because someone paid the damages instead of you doesn't mean you're not guilty of damaging someone's possessions; you've simply escaped being punished for it. And I find that irresponsible in the exact same way Christianity allows believers to put all their responsibility they have to other people they may harm (regardless of what religion they're from) onto a scapegoat like Jesus, and they get rewarded for it instead by going to heaven. And if people think this is okay just because god allowed it, then that's special pleading.

It's not you're right, but it's certainly less bizarre than revelling in a defeatist attitude.

That's wishful thinking, if you're somehow suggesting you'd rather exist after death than die and disappear forever. I'm not remotely concerned with what you want to do after you die; I'm more concerned about how you know what's going to happen to you after you die.

I don't see how that was a mischaracterisation with regards to the afterlife or lack there of. Making the assertion that you don't believe in the afterlife is neither here nor there - which is entirely what the picture implies.

It implies that being an atheist has no rewards, which is untrue, and afterlife is independent from belief in gods, so there may well be atheists who believe in an afterlife, and some who do not. And for those that don't believe in an afterlife, they may well consider their own deaths as a reward of sorts because it is an end to their lives, which they lived with meaning because they probably knew it wasn't going to last forever. (Compare this with Christians who believe they have heaven to look forward to, and a scapegoat to excuse them of anything they do while they're on Earth; time well wasted indeed) I don't view death as being empty and meaningless, and I doubt a lot of atheists do too. Generalizing all atheists as not believing in the afterlife is a mischaracterization, as is believing that they don't get any rewards for not believing in an afterlife.

So religion doesn't promote equality and freedom? As if there weren't religious groups condemning slavery long before abolition. Not to mention slavery in the US not being the only example.

But it was not done in the name of their religion; you cannot find a biblical passage that supports the condemnation of slavery. If anyone who happened to be religious supported the abolition of slavery, it would not be because of their religion (how could it? Their religion says nothing of the sort) but in spite of it.

Attitudes? You're talking about human beings here not religion.

Yes, and these attitudes were inspired by things written in the bible. If it weren't for such books, people would have less of a reason to discriminate against these people.

I don't know why I bother. Even if I were to provide an argument you would likely ignore it because you seem to have some vendetta and or fixation on religion as a negativity on human history. Why don't you just take a step back and really try and reassess and come to an understanding rather than relentlessly beating spirituality back and trying to win the debate.

No, it's because I happen to be able to acknowledge when religion has done something good for us, and when it hasn't. You still haven't explained why, if religion is any good for us, is there no verse in the bible that condemns slavery, and why such horrible things in the bible exist that allows people to discriminate against others based on race, sexual orientation, religion or gender, and if any person who happened to be religious did something good, it was not because their religion commanded it, but because they themselves believed in it. That's why I don't see what's so good about it. Nobody has a satisfactory answer to account for these atrocities. Even if you believed religion did something good, it does not excuse the bad things it has inspired, just as two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Shu]

No, but you are praying for your own personal well being, which is selfishness because you don't care if other people get stronger or not.

I pray, but very seldom. I don't have faith in a christian god, just a being. Though the above said, I don't think that's what they meant.

Praying for wisdom to understand the relevance of the time we are given on this earth is nothing more than trying to make sense of it all. If you call this selfish then I would then wish to turn it around and pray for your own self awareness.

Not enough people in this world have self awareness as it is, if you choose to except the burden of wisdom and pray for it, I hardly see it as an easy thing. In fact the labor of wisdom is a long hard struggle to self awareness and realizing who you truly are. Along the way it might include helping others in fact, it might include losing all you have ever known as far people and material value, but in the end wisdom is something that can not be replaced with materialistic worth or ideals of a nihilist or substance abuse.

A humbled spirit is someone who can believe in something even if it's humanity as a whole. To believe in a creator is only natural due to the ideals of cause and effect. To pray for understanding of why certain things happen due to the coping mechanisms in your own self may not be as strong as you once thought, is something which all men have gone through at least once. Whether you choose to acknowledge if you were helped, that's all on you.

In my honest opinion if one doesn't pray to anything, even if it's a piece of cheese, I can not trust them due to their foundation is based off of pure skepticism. Their inability to relate to the rest of human kind is stifling in fact. It's almost a form of isolation and chaos theory. A god only gives order. Without it.. I fear for the individual, no matter which god(s) you prefer to pray to.

 

[Abstract Debauchery]

Oh look, it's Ringo posting seriously in a religious debate thread. I'm already regretting it.

As the majority of you know, I'm an Atheist. However, I'm not one of those Atheists that go around to churches and tell people their entire existence is a lie. Live and let live as far as I'm concerned, I really couldn't care less. That's what I base what I do on. Don't try to shove religion down my throat, and I'll leave you alone. I would expect the same from anyone else.

Both Atheism and Religion have left dark spots in history.

Atheists: Stalin - Pwning 6-20 million dudes. Some epic kill/death ratio there.

(There are a lot more, I'm just lazy.)

Religion: Dark ages, crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, etc. The kill to death ratio is pretty up there as well. Though, Stalin makes you guys look small time.

The fact of the matter is, no one is perfect. There is no "end all" choice. Personally, I'm happier being an Atheist, I'm happier believing that there is no God. It's not my right, nor is it my obligation to go on a anti-holy crusade to "save" Christians.

Not everyone wants to be a faith cripple.

For Christian's, it's different. They are obligated. Sure, it's annoying when Jehova's Witness comes knocking at your door, but it makes them happy. So damn it, just be nice and close the door and continue on with your business.

They also like to pray. So what? They could be praying for my death for all I care. It's none of my business. Even if it is selfish (not saying it is), even if it's terrible, so be it. It makes them happy, it makes them feel better, and I can see the logic behind it.

They're praying to an existence that is, by definition, above them. Sure, I view it as a concept, as I'm sure they view Atheism as a concept. However, when they've had a shit day, or something really shitty happened, they have someone to turn to. Even if you don't believe in it, let them have their "one on one" talk.

Why? Because they are happy believing what they believe in.

Us Atheists, we don't have this luxury. We (or at least I) pray to nothing. It doesn't make me evil, it doesn't make it "chaos theory". What it is, is myself relying on my own inner strength to get myself through. I don't have a shoulder to lean on, I am alone, and that's the way I like it.

So yes, live and let live. Because it's none of your damned business. If you're shoving a crucifix up your ass, fantastic. Sit down and rotate and party like you've never partied before. I simply don't care.

Not enough people in this world have self awareness as it is, if you choose to except the burden of wisdom and pray for it, I hardly see it as an easy thing. In fact the labor of wisdom is a long hard struggle to self awareness and realizing who you truly are. Along the way it might include helping others in fact, it might include losing all you have ever known as far people and material value, but in the end wisdom is something that can not be replaced with materialistic worth or ideals of a nihilist or substance abuse.

But I love watching House M.D.

Though, everything is for the most part, agreeable. I know I don't have supreme self-awareness. Then again, it's simply not my problem. I don't get involved, and I don't have any problems. I have plenty of wisdom, but it's never enough. You can never have enough of it, in my opinion. You learn something new every day... or at least you really should be.

A humbled spirit is someone who can believe in something even if it's humanity as a whole.

Then I will never, by your definition, be a "humbled spirit". I can't trust something as flawed as humanity.

To believe in a creator is only natural due to the ideals of cause and effect.

It's just as natural as not believing in one.

To pray for understanding of why certain things happen due to the coping mechanisms in your own self may not be as strong as you once thought, is something which all men have gone through at least once. Whether you choose to acknowledge if you were helped, that's all on you.

Only, I never prayed in the times that got tough. I relied on myself, and I fixed my problems on my own. Nothing helped me. If you'd like to believe something did, knock yourself out.

In my honest opinion if one doesn't pray to anything, even if it's a piece of cheese, I can not trust them due to their foundation is based off of pure skepticism.

Not to be rude, but that's just a tad hypocritical of you. You want to get people to be self-aware, but you're obviously out to believe Atheists are bad.

Their inability to relate to the rest of human kind is stifling in fact.

That's just... amazingly rude.

I don't look at people by what they believe in. I judge people by how they act, I judge them as people should be judged. I judge them as human beings. To say that I can't relate to the rest of human kind because I'm Atheist... Yeah, so much for self-awareness, huh?

It's almost a form of isolation and chaos theory. A god only gives order. Without it.. I fear for the individual, no matter which god(s) you prefer to pray to.

Only, it isn't. Sure, I rely on myself, but that's my choice. I have a group of friends that would help me out in a heartbeat, I'm never actually alone. However, because I chose to be self-reliant, you chose to fear for me?

Sure, a God gives order. Proof of that exists right down the block in the nearest church. It can also bring disorder, proof of that can be seen as soon as you turn on the nearest television and look at current world events on the news.

PROTIP: So can Atheism, nothing is perfect.

In my opinion, order comes from within. So, for one that wants to speak of self-awareness, or simply just being aware, you have quite a long way to go.

As do we all.

 

[Saints&Storms]

@OP

When I pray, I am thanking God for what he has given and blessed me with, I don't ask for more things because God knows what I need and is giving it to me, my prayers aren't requests they are more like letters to God, conversations with Him if you will.

I believe the Bible makes it very clear that you only have to believe what you want has already happened, trust it already has and it will.

There are few time when I say 'God please do this for me...' and that's when the well being of a loved one is in danger. Honestly, I believe the nature of prayer is thankfulness not requests.

Regarding how a Higher Being/God may feel about Human actions I think is clear; God doesn't put the pressure of perfection on us, which is why some people pray solely for that reason to improve themselves characteristically to live in the image of for example, the ten commandments or Jesus. That's why there is forgiveness, for when mistakes happen.

We're only human and therefor flawed.

 

[der Astronom]

I pray, but very seldom. I don't have faith in a christian god, just a being. Though the above said, I don't think that's what they meant.

Praying for wisdom to understand the relevance of the time we are given on this earth is nothing more than trying to make sense of it all. If you call this selfish then I would then wish to turn it around and pray for your own self awareness.

That depends on if you're praying for wisdom for yourself, or praying for wisdom for others. And under what context are you praying? Are you doing so under the context of your own religion, or are you doing so because you hope other people will see it? If so, why not actually spread self awareness by doing something about it instead of wishing and hoping for something by praying for it?

This is the problem with prayer: So long as you're not doing it to calm yourself down, it is either an expression of your selfishness, or an idle act of hoping for something without actually doing anything about it. The only reason people believe it works is because they believe in a particular religion.

Not enough people in this world have self awareness as it is, if you choose to except the burden of wisdom and pray for it, I hardly see it as an easy thing. In fact the labor of wisdom is a long hard struggle to self awareness and realizing who you truly are. Along the way it might include helping others in fact, it might include losing all you have ever known as far people and material value, but in the end wisdom is something that can not be replaced with materialistic worth or ideals of a nihilist or substance abuse.

Are you somehow suggesting that we're going to gain this self awareness by praying for it?
You get self awareness by talking to people and understanding what the rest of the world sees in you; you don't gain more knowledge about yourself and the rest of the world by sitting on your ass and hoping for it; you gain more knowledge about those things by doing something about it. You don't gain more wisdom by isolating yourself to prayer; you gain knowledge and wisdom by seeing the world.

A humbled spirit is someone who can believe in something even if it's humanity as a whole. To believe in a creator is only natural due to the ideals of cause and effect. To pray for understanding of why certain things happen due to the coping mechanisms in your own self may not be as strong as you once thought, is something which all men have gone through at least once. Whether you choose to acknowledge if you were helped, that's all on you.

And I don't think these beliefs help our understanding of anything. First of all, we have the means and methods for discerning truth from fiction; now it doesn't work in all cases, but we can learn to deal with when that happens. Secondly, it is more honest to admit when you don't know something and discover it later than to pretend you know something by believing in it, and later find out you're wrong--some people don't even take that step in recognizing they were wrong. Why certain things happen is better explained through science and reasoning than it is hoping someone who may or may not exist will explain it to you.

In my honest opinion if one doesn't pray to anything, even if it's a piece of cheese, I can not trust them due to their foundation is based off of pure skepticism. Their inability to relate to the rest of human kind is stifling in fact. It's almost a form of isolation and chaos theory. A god only gives order. Without it.. I fear for the individual, no matter which god(s) you prefer to pray to.

And you know what; a healthy bit of skepticism never hurt anyone. All humans are infallible, and we're all capable of fooling each other, intentionally or not, and anyone who thinks they understand humanity and thinks we have to trust humanity is naive. Now I'd like to trust humanity and get along and all, but it's just not going to happen. People fool other people all the time; we betray each other, change our minds, change our personalities; that's the other aspect of humanity that exists. Not all of it is good, and pretending that all humans are trustworthy doesn't solve our problems.

And if only god were capable of morality, then you're basically saying atheists can't be good people, but that's simply untrue. Atheists can be moral and have order for reasons not related to god. The idea that if you stopped believing in god means you will murder, steal and do bad things is more disturbing than atheists not believing in a god that gives order.

Atheists: Stalin - Pwning 6-20 million dudes. Some epic kill/death ratio there.

Actually, it's a pretty common thing to blame Hitler and Stalin on atheism, but if you look at it more closely, you'll see there's actually no logical pathway that leads from atheism to the things they did. Atheism doesn't inspire people to kill other people or command them to do things; communism and Nazism might, but choosing not to believe in a god in and of itself says nothing about killing other people or doing things to other people simply because they don't agree with you; the "worst" I've ever seen from atheism is Richard Dawkins' bus ad campaign and several other harmless promotions of it, including writing books and having call-in TV shows, and even them being atheists doesn't obligate them to do it.

And I think I already said this, but I'm not actually that bothered if people want to pray; as I said, some people do it because it calms them down. What I wanted to point out was that people don't seem to be aware that it's selfish if they're asking for something, and that it doesn't do anyone any good because there are better things you can do to help someone other than hoping they'll be better (and in some cases, "better" may mean more religious, which I consider to be religiously intolerant). And if you still choose to pray even if it means being selfish or only doing things for your religion, I don't care. I just thought people should know; that's all.

 

[Shu]

Not to be rude, but that's just a tad hypocritical of you. You want to get people to be self-aware, but you're obviously out to believe Atheists are bad.

That's just... amazingly rude.

I don't look at people by what they believe in. I judge people by how they act, I judge them as people should be judged. I judge them as human beings. To say that I can't relate to the rest of human kind because I'm Atheist... Yeah, so much for self-awareness, huh?

I don't think we are on the same page here. Athiesm is just believing in the absence of god, while Nihilism believes in nothing in general. I have plenty of atheist, theist, (a few) pagan friends who I can respect their beliefs, due to they have all lived their own lives differently.

Atheist to my knowledge at least believe in "something" even if it isn't a god in general. I've seen spiritual atheists to be honest, who believe in earth or believe in humanity with a tad bit of science and mathematics mixed into the lot as well, but that's "believing in something" like my reference about the piece of cheese.

Praying is humility to me. You don't have to pray to a god, honestly sometimes I don't even know what I'm praying to when I do it. It's more like talking to myself out loud. It can be perceived as a tad bit mental, but it's only to push myself further on. I admit there is a god, but I hardly pay pentance to it. Churches, Mosques and etc are out of the question, because I've always believed Spirituality should be one's self journey.

Can you see the Buddhist ideologies I speak of though? If god is there, it is imperfect as I, even with the amount of power it has. It admits its wrongs, and never tries to dabble in anyone's life, but merely puts twists and obstacles to test you. Sort of like the christian god and the christian devil are both the same being.

There is nothing in my previous rhetoric about bashing Atheists. I just do not trust, for whatever reason within me, someone who has no respect for anything at all. That to me is not an Atheist but Nihilism. Personally I believed I was an atheist at one time, but then I guess I just experienced something in which I just don't share due to it only makes sense to me. It's like a different language, the only thing I truly put my name to is Humanitarianism mixed with a bit of Buddhism.

I admit to being a skeptic in fact, who even questions my own idealogies to keep me on the right path. Because to be honest, no ones beliefs are right to others, only to themselves, that's why I wish never to see a religion forced on a person who admits to disagreeing it's beliefs. I hope for folks to learn whatever they wish at their own pace, and not have to meet in these little group therapy sessions we call church (christian). If it's all about praying to a being, then why would it ever matter about what race, what sex, what one looks like, the very fact is Religion itself has segregated human for as long as at least I know, just like Politics. It's when we get mass groups of people together that all think the same thing, and condemn another for thinking differently, that wars break out in the first place. If it wasn't about religion it would be about something else.

So Praying to me.. is all about self to be honest. What's the point of praying for other people, when you yourself is the one that needs to look after him/herself. Praying is words/gospel. If you wish to help someone, act on it, don't pray for it, it's a waste of time in my opinion.

 

[der Astronom]

I don't think we are on the same page here. Athiesm is just believing in the absence of god, while Nihilism believes in nothing in general. I have plenty of atheist, theist, (a few) pagan friends who I can respect their beliefs, due to they have all lived their own lives differently.

Actually, atheism isn't a belief system; it's a lack of belief. It's the same as calling darkness the absence of light, and cold the absence of heat. They're not the same states at all; one of them is just a word to describe that absence.

Atheist to my knowledge at least believe in "something" even if it isn't a god in general. I've seen spiritual atheists to be honest, who believe in earth or believe in humanity with a tad bit of science and mathematics mixed into the lot as well, but that's "believing in something" like my reference about the piece of cheese.

Okay, but the reason I don't want to call those things beliefs is because my acceptance of math and science aren't the same as beliefs in religion; one of them is based completely on faith, and the other one is based on the fact that it works. We do the same things with friends and family as well; you call someone a friend and continue being friends with them because they've done something for you, or they just don't betray your trust. They've done something for you that makes them worth being friends with. Believing in religion is like being friends with any stranger on the street, regardless of what intentions he or she may have.

Can you see the Buddhist ideologies I speak of though? If god is there, it is imperfect as I, even with the amount of power it has. It admits its wrongs, and never tries to dabble in anyone's life, but merely puts twists and obstacles to test you. Sort of like the christian god and the christian devil are both the same being.

And that's actually the difference between the buddhist god (not that any buddhist needs to believe in one) and the Christian one; most Christians believe in an infallible god who knows everything and can do anything. And if he really did know everything, what's the point of having a test? He already knows what you're going to do.

There is nothing in my previous rhetoric about bashing Atheists. I just do not trust, for whatever reason within me, someone who has no respect for anything at all. That to me is not an Atheist but Nihilism. Personally I believed I was an atheist at one time, but then I guess I just experienced something in which I just don't share due to it only makes sense to me. It's like a different language, the only thing I truly put my name to is Humanitarianism mixed with a bit of Buddhism.

By default, I don't have respect for anything or anyone; respect must be earned. So if I ever did have respect for something, it's because it's demonstrated to me that it is worth respecting. And if no one or nothing can demonstrate that they're worth respecting, then I guess I wouldn't have respect for anything. Nihilism is actually a more specific philosophy, so some atheists can be nihilists.

I admit to being a skeptic in fact, who even questions my own idealogies to keep me on the right path. Because to be honest, no ones beliefs are right to others, only to themselves, that's why I wish never to see a religion forced on a person who admits to disagreeing it's beliefs. I hope for folks to learn whatever they wish at their own pace, and not have to meet in these little group therapy sessions we call church (christian). If it's all about praying to a being, then why would it ever matter about what race, what sex, what one looks like, the very fact is Religion itself has segregated human for as long as at least I know, just like Politics. It's when we get mass groups of people together that all think the same thing, and condemn another for thinking differently, that wars break out in the first place. If it wasn't about religion it would be about something else.

And that's why I said we'd have one less thing to worry about if it wasn't for religion. I don't tell people that getting rid of religion leads to peace; it just means there's one less thing that can cause war or conflict.

So Praying to me.. is all about self to be honest. What's the point of praying for other people, when you yourself is the one that needs to look after him/herself. Praying is words/gospel. If you wish to help someone, act on it, don't pray for it, it's a waste of time in my opinion.

I don't doubt you might be helping yourself if you're doing it for yourself, but the fact that you are still means it's selfish. As Jquestionmark said earlier, the fact that it has benefits and the fact that it might be selfish are two different things.
And if you can help other people by doing something about it, could you not do the same for yourself?

 

[Shu]

And if you can help other people by doing something about it, could you not do the same for yourself?

No. Sometimes you can not. There are barriers people come up against in their own life where due to circumstances they can't get over the wall. You can have self reliance all you want, but the fact of the matter is, if you believe in something more (like i said, not necessarily a god(s)) you can push yourself beyond the limits. Often times talking it out (aka praying in my reference before) can get push you through the limits. It most certainly can be considered selfish, but think of all the folks who have ever invented something new period. Aside from applied mathematics and scientific testing, all they knew is what they've learned from text or those before them. In order to feel/do something new, sometimes you can't just believe in yourself and boom..

Hince I'm not giving you my own stories about myself, due to they are my own, and the fact of the matter is, everyone has to get to where they are going in their own way. In my opinion, it's "whatever works" unless of course it deals with death/lying/cheating.

It's like this.. You have trained your entire life for a sporting event. No matter what, you keep hitting that wall and can't get past whatever physical limitations you have. It might just be all mental. Though for whatever reason you stop thinking in yourself, and you think in this "belief structure" in which gives you a mental calmness and pushes you beyond for the first time. It worked for you, but of course it may not work for another.

To be honest I disagree with certain types of Theists or Athests. They both do the same thing often times and try to display they they are right. Difference of course being Faith and the absence of. Though one should never sit there and waste time trying to change the others views, but only try to Guide them to the key to either change the other. It's the respect the two have to learn to have for one another that pisses me off from time to time.

 

[der Astronom]

No. Sometimes you can not. There are barriers people come up against in their own life where due to circumstances they can't get over the wall. You can have self reliance all you want, but the fact of the matter is, if you believe in something more (like i said, not necessarily a god(s)) you can push yourself beyond the limits. Often times talking it out (aka praying in my reference before) can get push you through the limits. It most certainly can be considered selfish, but think of all the folks who have ever invented something new period. Aside from applied mathematics and scientific testing, all they knew is what they've learned from text or those before them. In order to feel/do something new, sometimes you can't just believe in yourself and boom..

Okay, but I don't consider talking to myself necessarily prayer; if you can talk to other people and not consider it prayer, then talking to yourself is no different. The only thing that's different is who you're talking to.

To be honest I disagree with certain types of Theists or Athests. They both do the same thing often times and try to display they they are right. Difference of course being Faith and the absence of. Though one should never sit there and waste time trying to change the others views, but only try to Guide them to the key to either change the other. It's the respect the two have to learn to have for one another that pisses me off from time to time.

The problem when it comes to talking to certain theists is that they're unwilling to change their stance or simply just agree to disagree. Whenever you enter into a discussion where you're discussing ideas in depth, both parties should be willing to consider the other's arguments; we should all start on a stance of "I don't know" and move from there. But some theists are rarely ever willing to do so; they're often in a debate simply to say something because they can, and not because they care about whether or not what they have to say makes sense. And that's why it's so frustrating whenever you point out a fallacy; they don't care that you did. They just want to say what they want to say.
I don't doubt that some atheists may be this way, but from my experience, it's often theists who have this problem.
And when it comes to debate where we are trying to discuss things logically and rationally, faith loses out. It's got no place there at all, and anyone using it to support an argument would be at a severe disadvantage.

 

[Valkyrur]

Prayer huh...

I'm Roman Catholic, and well, it's kinda like a sort of must-do, so I think?

... Well, 'think', because I'm doubtful. Recently, I've been feeling rather doubtful about this entire religion thing. Is there really such a person as God? Is it worth my time to 'pray'?

I mean, prayers are like conversations with God right?

That is the only reason that I pray nowadays - because I believe someone up there's listening. Or at least, it does help maintain my sanity to some extent. I don't have anyone close enough to me to talk about all my fears and inhibitions after all - not even my parents.

That, and to pose a question of my own regarding the subject in this thread - which I doubt has been asked as of this post.

Assuming that God does exist and does listen to your prayers and all, don't you feel weird to be relying on Him?

Well, that's one thing troubling me, and I would appreciate some perspective.

 

[Drachnon]

"Two hands working can do more then a thousand clasped in prayer"

That pretty sums up my position on prayer, it doesn't achieve anything. Still I don't really mind people praying, I'm okay with freedom of religion and people can spend their own time however they want.
I do take issue when prayer is forced during public events. Because then you are forcing others to waste their time.
Also I take issue with people who think praying for the solution to a problem substitutes having actually to do something yourself. A good example is that a governor in the USA called for a prayer day to seek spiritual solutions to the nations problems. Another called for a prayer for rain during a drought.
I find such things very scary, someone who was elected into a position where he has to deal with such emergencies should not just give up and say "lets ask god to fix it".

There's also something that's not actual prayer but it related to it which is thanking a god/deity. I especially dispise this behaviour when words of thanks should really be meant for someone else. For example if someone succesfully goes through surgery I find it very offencive if someone thanks a god instead of the highly trained doctor who spent years studying medicine to actually help people, and no your god did not work through the doctor.
Or if a child who gets a good grade hears from the teacher that he was 'gifted by god', such a thing really diminishes the accomplishments of the child.