Scottish Independence

[Davey Gaga]

Time for the debate forum to be home to a debate!

What are your thoughts on Scottish Independence and the referendum next year? Should Scotland leave the UK or stay put?

I admit that I am somewhat clueless about the topic myself, so I'm partly opening up this topic to learn more about it so I have a better idea of what I want to vote in September 2014. Facts and evidence would be much appreciated.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

Facts and evidence would be much appreciated.

unfortunately mr salmond doesn't have much of either at the moment. but he'd still like you to vote yes.

im still undecided. we don't know whether we'll still be members of the eu - alex salmond has asserted "we will" and yet most of europe say "no. you can apply like everyone else has to." in which case we'll have to accept the euro as i understand it. alex salmond has, however, asserted that we'll keep the pound sterling, even if the rest of the uk agreed to that he'd essentially be leaving our economy in the hands of westminster ie where it is now. i believe he's also asserted that the majority of north sea oil revenues will belong to scotland. these assertions are not helpful to anyone. 16 year olds allowed to vote...that could be a great thing but i'm willing to bet the majority of them just watch braveheart and vote yes. it's a pretty huge decision and not one that will be reversed any time soon so i think it's something people shouldn't take lightly. i'm also quite sure there are some morons who think this means we won't be the loyal subjects of her majesty the grub. we will.

i'll reserve my judgement for when alex decides we, the scottish people, are worthy of knowing which of his wild assertions are actually factual or just him being a bag of wind. at least for now i'm inclined to say i would vote against independence moreso if it's a case of scotland getting rid of the british parliament puppeteers who actually give us a say only to be subject to the european parliament, who quite frankly have much bigger fish to fry than our small, insignificant country. the idea of independence is that we are supposed to gain more power, not less.

 

[iSmiff]

Look, i'm not really into my politics much but; bluntly, I personally think they take more from than they contribute to the UK so if they want to become independent then i'm not too bothered. Aside from Biffy Clyro and Fergie I don't think modern Scotland impacts on me personally much, being a southerner most of the time.

It doesn't make much sense to me WHY Scots would want to be independent other than nationalistic pride. Like I say, I honestly believe they gain more than they lose.

 

[Big Casino]

I am completely for it. Ive read up on it a lot the past 6 months. Everyone knows me knows im very proud of my country and very proud to be Scottish though i wouldnt let that pride cloud my vision for an independent Scotland. Im all for it. Most of the negativity comes from people saying that wer delusional and think our oil will last forever, of course it wont. While Oil is a massive earner for the United Kingdom it is far far FAR from being the only thing we have going for us. Scotlands legendary bad weather turns out to be one of the best things we have going for us. The wind and waves in the North are strong enough to actually power the whole of Scotland. Quite funny that the thing we hate the most turns out to be one of our greatest assets. Water, tartans, beef and livestock, Malt, and many more though im not gunna list them all. I was surprised to see how important water exporting is and how much it can earn.

Its obvious England doesnt want the Union to split. If Scotland go then its very likely that Wales will follow and Northern Ireland is sure to. We enjoy a lot of luxuries here that the English dont get. Scotland earns more of that national income than England does. Sure theyre percentage is bigger but when you divide by the number of people Scotland gets more which is something the English people arent too happy about and quite rightly so aswell.
We get a little bit extra money and it keeps us sweet.
The MPs in London are always warning us that it would be disastrous for Scotland if we broke away but is that really the case? Seriously when the fuck has England and London ever cared about Scotland? I am 100% sure that they could not give a toss if our country went to the shit. What they do care about though is what theyre gunna lose if we do split, and thats money of course. Scotland is huge earner for the United Kingdom and that isnt something they wanna lose. The war in Iraq was a long and costly one and they needed soldiers which is something else we contribute. The Scottish highlands is a training ground for troops. They have field exercises up here.
I think the story of how Scotland joined the Union is really quite sad and depressing and i would love to see the vote be yes next year, I really would. Despite giving up what you might call our freedom as an independent nation and Kingdom Scotland really prospered from the Union With England, Wales and N. Ireland. It became a world powerhouse of Engineering. Ship building on the Clyde was one of Europes biggest industries. Glasgows Tobacco merchants were the richest in Britain after they secured trading in Jamaica. Its prospered so many ways and anyone would be a fool to say it hasnt. though despite all these great things one thing never changed and that was that the common person was poor. The poorest in Western Europe.

I dont think Alex Salmond isnt talking enough about what hes gunna do for the country and its people. Despite my pride and how much i would like to see Scotland be its own nation again i wouldnt want it at the cost of our economy. Many families already struggle to meet ends at the end of every month. There will be more money in Scotland should we go independent but the problem is the same as ever. Who actually sees that money?
Im not sure i can see the vote being yes. I think the people are just too cautious and really just dont care enough about it. There doesnt seem to be a big sense of pride anymore. Maybe thats just me but everyone is cynical.
Next year theres gunna be a proposal from London i will bank on it. They will offer Scotland something in exchange for staying with England and voting no. Theres gunna be some sweet little deal to try and win us over. Its been done before when the stone of Scone was returned to Scotland finally after what? Like 700 years of being in England after it was Stolen by Edward I of England during the wards of independence. It will be very interesting to see what they offer us this time around. What makes me laugh is what i mentioned before about England being worried we wont survive. There was an MP on tv who said he was generally worried for the future of Scotland and its people should we actually go down this route Cuz he reaaallly cares about us im sure. wants only the best for Englands best friend for the last 1000 years. The fact that David Cameron said the English should have a vote in Scotland's bid is proof enough he's terrified by the idea Excuse me Mr Cameron but you lot outnumber us by 10 to 1. Knob

Im a certain to vote yes but im gunna be reading a lot more about it as it gets closer. While my mind is pretty much set in stone for voting yes i do wanna know more and Alex Salmond really has to address the people and telling us why we should vote yes and why its gunna benefit the common man.
I fear not enough people will vote and wel blow our chance at it. If we turn this down that will be it over. We wont have another chance like this for a long long time. Maybe never. So people really need to think about this. Many dont seem to think its important and i understand that i really do because it feels like all politicians do is fuck you over and you never feel change for the good. But this is one of the biggest things to happen to our country in hundreds of years. Should it happen so many things are gunna change forever. Hopefully its all for the best.

I dont like the fact that we are keeping the Queen as the monarch or head of state, I dunno what the term for her is. Its not like the days past. The Queen has no real power anymore. For me though its the image and symbol that comes with the her and her family. English Kings throughout all of history ( bar James the 1st and 6th ) and a few other kings have invaded Scotland and wanted our land to be an English state. Demanded that Scottish Kings accept them as their supreme overlord and I dont like that one fucking bit. The monarch was responsible largely for the near complete extermination of the Highland and Scottish way of life.If we get independent she should be out the fucking picture all together. We can get our castles back and i can live in Holyrood palace.

So the vote is a yes from me and hopefully more people will vote yes aswell. Do your part folks =)
Man i hate posting in sleeping forest threads

 

[Marquis of Granby]

then scotland ends up as a laughing stock a la greece.

some poor bugger will bail us out and half of us will live in denial saying it was this to blame or that to blame and the other half will say "i told you so".

 

[Big Casino]

If everyone lived by the rules of then what then there would be no progress in the world. If you mess up then you learn from your mistake and you start again and do it right til you get it right. Thats what

 

[Belazor et Britannia]

Being just an immigrant I have no power in the actual poll, and because I don't have any nationalistic pride at stake, my opinions aren't really worth a damn but still.

I worry that it will remove part of the reason why I found moving to the UK from Norway awesome in the first place; the fact that I was no longer living in some tiny country that nobody online delivered to. I like how in the UK everything is integrated and all part of a group. If I want to send a letter to England I don't need to pay extra to send something abroad. Packages don't need to be declared. Services that deliver to the UK also deliver to my door.

I worry that one or more of those benefits will go away.

I find people who think "oh things will be so much better if we don't have to give our money away to England" very weird. Honestly, find me one country where someone don't complain about the government. There's always going to be people who take from the poor and give to the rich, independence isn't going to solve that.

I've not seen a single compelling reason other than "yea we don't like those guys cause we're Scottish and they're English!"

 

[iSmiff]

I just don't see the benefits being much at all other than national pride like i've said before..

Without sounding harsh perhaps the Scots are overestimating themselves?

 

[Toshiya]

I must admit I'm quite clueless about it myself.
If Scotland are still part of the EU I can't imagine much will change other than the fact that they will be able to implement their own laws. They've still got some stuff different to us anyway - such as free university (as an English student paying £9000 per year to study, that hurts ).
I wonder how it will effect English people living up there (not just English thinking about it, other Brits). Like, I was just saying to Lew I almost went to uni in Scotland and in 2014 would only be halfway or just under halfway into my degree. That could be a major problem for English students - would an allowance be made or would we be treated as foreign students and have to pay insane fees (I know I would have had to drop out if I had to pay fees equivalent to what foreigners here pay!)
being English and living in England I'm pretty impartial though. Ill go by whatever the votes of the referendum come out as... May as well do what the people want!

 

[Davey Gaga]

I must admit I'm quite clueless about it myself.
If Scotland are still part of the EU I can't imagine much will change other than the fact that they will be able to implement their own laws. They've still got some stuff different to us anyway - such as free university (as an English student paying £9000 per year to study, that hurts ).
I wonder how it will effect English people living up there (not just English thinking about it, other Brits). Like, I was just saying to Lew I almost went to uni in Scotland and in 2014 would only be halfway or just under halfway into my degree. That could be a major problem for English students - would an allowance be made or would we be treated as foreign students and have to pay insane fees (I know I would have had to drop out if I had to pay fees equivalent to what foreigners here pay!)
being English and living in England I'm pretty impartial though. Ill go by whatever the votes of the referendum come out as... May as well do what the people want!

I can answer that. Scotland provides free education to Scottish students and those from the EU; however, English students are charged, because of the UK thing. We can't charge other countries from the EU fees but we can charge students from our own land - and England and Scotland are just different enough that we can charge ya.

The main benefits I keep hearing about from my two, very pro-indy friends are mostly to do with electoral power. You've probably seen all of the pictures saying "Scotland votes X in 99999 elections but got Y every time: independence will change that" - that is to say that, despite the majority of Scotland wanting one outcome, we're outnumbered by the rest of the UK, so having a Scottish government that isn't answerable to Westminster will give us more power to decide what we want to do. The rest of it all seems to be to do with having more money.

 

[iSmiff]

"Scotland votes X in 99999 elections but got Y every time: independence will change that"

Does that not raise questions about what scottish and english are voting on which are so radically different in the first place?

We aren't THAT different as people are we? It's not like our culture clashes as much as say the US and middle east. What are these votes which Scots have been outnumbered on; and why are they so important to force through an independence vote ?

 

[Toshiya]

I can answer that. Scotland provides free education to Scottish students and those from the EU; however, English students are charged, because of the UK thing. We can't charge other countries from the EU fees but we can charge students from our own land - and England and Scotland are just different enough that we can charge ya.
.

Wow I never realised you gave free education to EU students too! Just us English that pay eh.
That said I'm not overly bothered about how much I'm paying when it comes down to it. Right now, I'm paying nothing... Yay for students loans!

 

[iSmiff]

Wow I never realised you gave free education to EU students too! Just us English that pay eh.
That said I'm not overly bothered about how much I'm paying when it comes down to it. Right now, I'm paying nothing... Yay for students loans!

If you don't pay it off in 15 years it gets written off anyway, if I remember correctly.

 

[Toshiya]

If you don't pay it off in 15 years it gets written off anyway, if I remember correctly.

Think it's more like 30 but yeah it's written off. Being part of the first year to pay 9k sucks though.
Hopefully I'll get a wage to pay it off but who knows.
...bit off topic, whoops.

 

[Linnaete]

Does Alex Salmond have much of a workable idea of how exactly this will work? He and Nicola Sturgeon - assuming they win - have a programme which pretty much stipulates that most formal negotiations with London will be done by early 2016, and this includes all 28 EU members accepting Scotland into the fold with its own EU membership. I've been hearing that Scotland would have to apply to get into the EU, and even then, Turkey's more likely to get in first. 18 months to get it all up and running according to Salmond and Sturgeon? Good luck with that. I wouldn't be surprised if there is dragged-out bickering between Holyrood and Westminster over how much North Sea oil reserves both sides are entitled to.

I do support Scotland being able to garner more opportunities to decide its destiny. I just don't see this independence adventure working out very well, or as optimistically planned, particularly with the SNP at the helm. It smacks of Salmond wishing to have it both ways. He fantasises independence, but asserts that Scotland will remain "British" in some intangible way, with the Queen as the head of state (so I picture a 1603-1707 composite monarchy structure) and keeping the Pound Sterling. Surely, when it comes to the latter, you're tying yourself down to the Bank of England. An independent Scotland with the Bank of England as its central bank. I'm not very versed in economics, but that sounds pretty much like what it is now. The Bank of England in charge of monetary policy for both England and Scotland in a currency union, and Scotland will still be financially constrained, but with the added bonus of having to compete against the rest of Britain.

I don't really fully know. I've only had cursory glances at the issue, and I've yet to sit down and read about it more comprehensively. I've always thought that devo max would have been a more sensible option, but the referendum itself won't have three options. It's good for Scotland to reconsider and debate over the status quo, but if it happened now and I'm in Scotland, I'd be too pessimistic to vote for yes. I've friends in Scottish universities now who have said their friends and classmates aren't too sure about Salmond either. The campaign's going to get ugly. And whenever Cameron says that it would be terrible if Scotland goes away, I sometimes roll my eyes. I think we know that privately, he wets the bed with delight at the thought of the Conservatives finding it easier to get in come election time. If UKIP doesn't shit on his bed first.

Looking forward to the Glasgow Commonwealth games in 2014 by the way.