Religious Idioms

[SaShman]

I was considering posting this in Religious debate. But I don't think there is much to debate here at this point.

Anyway, there is no denying the profound influence that Christianity has had on Western culture. This is particularly obvious in the English language. There are several relatively common expressions which have fairly obvious religious influences

eg: "Oh my God!"
"Jesus Christ!" (to express shock etc..)
"Bless you" (When someone sneezes).
"God knows...."

etc etc..

So my question is do you associate these kinds of things with their religious influence or do you just take them for their figurative meaning? The other day I said "bless you" when one of my mates sneezed. They said "Don't worry man I'm not religious". My response was something to the effect of "It's just an expression you cunt!".

I generally just take these expressions for their implied meaning. The one exception being "God bless you" (as a farewell). When someone says that to me it makes me feel weird (if I'm being honest) and I immediately associate it with religion.

But yeah..what about you guys?

 

[Squid]

I say Oh My God a lot but I don't actually consider God when I am saying it, it's just a habit and has no religious meaning behind it for me.

I also say Bless you when someone sneezes just out of politeness, I can't really think of anything else you could say besides Bless you to someone who sneezes besides gazuntight (did I even spell that right?) which I find awkward to say.

My sister says Jesus a lot when she is shocked, she mostly does it for a laugh because it's funny to say, I think a lot of these sayings have lost any religious meaning they once had because they're so often used in every day conversations that they've just become reactions and habits.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

It would take too long to rationalize my pov...

I don't think anyone realizes how pervasive their culture is with religious teachings.

Examples off the top of my head.

...

The golden rule: treat others as you would like to be treated.

In the bible Jesus is quoted as saying: love thy neighbor as you love yourself.

A classic song:

Lyrics:

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time to every purpose, under Heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

Now look at this verse from Ecclesiastes chapter 3:

3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:

3:2 A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3:3 A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

3:4 A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;

The story of the tortoise and the hare.

Moral of the story: the race isn't necessarily won by the fastest.

K, read this from Ecclesiastes 9:11..

I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.

....

That's all I care to write down for now.

A good deal of western culture may be biblically or religiously influenced without people realizing it.

 

[Will Graham]

I don't think even religious people have their deity in mind when they say something like "Oh my God". It's lost all religious meaning in everyday use, similar to the way retarded and spastic have changed from medical terms to insults.

Despite your terrible examples, the fact that the western world was and still is influenced by religion isn't a revelation

 

[Dionysos]

By Jove!

I do not think that many people think of the religion behind these phrases when used commonly in an everyday situation. There are exceptions where the Lord, etc, is meant to be invoked but commonly these are just phrases that people use.

People like playing about with these phrases when writing fiction too. Some authors would substitute God for Odin when writing of Nordic warriors, and likewise for Zeus, and so on (insert god here and you could go on all day). There were also some similar phrases in the ancient societies too, so it is not only a Western Christianity thing.

As for me myself I do not really imagine God being called out when I say such phrases. I do, however, remember being told off and getting a smacked bottom when I was a kid because I said “For God’s sake!” and was told that I was using the Lord’s name in vain. Some people do hold it seriously.

I only imagine a deity behind it either when I deliberate over the wording, or when I deliberately change the name to something like Zeus or Odin, just to add a bit of variety to life. I also must use ‘by Jove’ more often in conversation as I like that one.

 

[Will Graham]

I was thinking more about this, and I am even more certain that they are just meaningless idioms. God damn it sprang to mind, I say that in the same way I say for fuck's sake. I am not literally requesting 'God' to damn something

 

[Shu]

I think folks have already conveyed my Point of View. I say a lot of stuff joking.. like.. ah damnit. Or.. Oh damn youuuuu. I also say god damnit quite a bit, and that sometimes ruffles a few feathers actually. I feel that some words can be a lot worse than these.

I say bless you, though I'm agnostic. I say "Jesus Christ" when I hear something that makes me go . So... yea.

I don't know, it's really a reflex to me, with no apparent meaning.

 

[AerithG]

Well, I do not say (nor type), "Oh My Gosh!" due to not wanting to use God's name in vain. So, that doesn't go for me. However, no Christian is supposed to do it, but I can't really say what most of the population really does. >_>;

I say "Bless you" because I feel it necessary, since the heart stomps when you sneeze, and saying 'bless you' is just me wishing good fortune and good health on the person.

I don't say Jesus Christ's name like described above because the way it's used above usually signifies disappointment, anger, or any form of grief, and I most certainly think of grief when I think of Jesus.

So, two out of three affect me on a religious stand point, while one partially does, though I probably would anyway due to the desire for someone to have good fortune and health regardless.

 

[Lirael]

I tend to avoid 'Oh my God' and 'Jesus Christ' because I'm worried I'll offend others and, despite being agnostic, don't want to use God's name in vain if one does exist, but I don't really link phrases like 'bless you' will religion when I say them. It's certainly interesting looking into how certain habitual phrases which have been integrated into our everyday language have developed from religious ideas though.

I used to say all of them out of habit but as I grew older, I became very aware of the people around me and feel it's important to respect those who don't want to hear words which they consider to be offensive. It's possible I'm more concerned than necessary, but it doesn't have a negative effect on me, so.

 

[Will Graham]

I say "Bless you" because I feel it necessary, since the heart stomps when you sneeze

No, it doesn't

There are many things that are more dangerous than sneezing, so why don't you say bless you when someone goes driving or something like that?

I say bless you when someone sneezes, but it's in the same way I say please or thank you

 

[Richard B Riddick]

K. Hows this for a 'religious idiom'.

This is known as a triquetra.

In some circles, it symbolizes the Trinity - Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Its the emblem imprinted on some Bibles.

Now imagine you're a video game designer for final fantasy x.

There's a character called 'sin' who represents absolute evil.

One of the ways evil is symbolized is by taking crosses and triquetras and other symbols for 'good' & turning them upside down to represent 'evil'.

Perhaps if a triquetra is inverted & edited a little to avoid pissing off the pope, the result you have is...

^ The emblem of the zanarkand abes blitzball team.

K, now look at Jecht's chest.

I haven't heard anyone put this theory forward before & don't know that its been investigated.

But it is possible there is some foreshadowing & symbolism present.

If so, that could make it pointless to talk about.

There could well be religious idioms right under pplz noses & they might never realize it.

 

[Will Graham]

The inverted cross isn't actually a satanic image, why do you think it is the symbol of the pope? It is because St. Peter the first pope did not feel he was worthy to die like Jesus so requested his cross be inverted. Which is the exact opposite of making the symbol more evil

No one is arguing that religious influence is non-existent in Western or any culture, simply that many phrases though containing religious terms have no real religious overtones

 

[Richard B Riddick]

The inverted cross isn't actually a satanic image

You're wrong.

St Peter's Cross

It has also often become associated with Satanic and anti-religious attitudes, as it is considered to represent the opposite of Christianity by inverting its primary symbol, the Latin Cross. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within anti-religion groups............, inverted crosses are often displayed to represent Satan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_St._Peter#Satanic_and_anti-Christian_imagery

No one is arguing that religious influence is non-existent in Western or any culture, simply that many phrases though containing religious terms have no real religious overtones

You're assuming your personal opinion amounts to scientific fact again.

It doesn't.

 

[The Witch]

Riiiiiight, I am not even going to answer any of the above.

Anyhoot, I used to say oh my god a lot (IRL and online) but lately I've been(trying to at least) changing them to:
"Oh my goodness" / "Oh my word" / "oh my gosh" instead of saying "oh my god" or taking Jesus' name in vain. I just don't feel right saying either unless someone I love is found safe or something. :/

I know some have said that these sayings have been evolved into common day speech, but they still have an origin. I always associate these type of sayings to religious context because... that's what they mean. I wouldn't stop defining purple as a color just because someone else didn't believe it was one, would I? It's the same thing with this.

But I can't help but smile and think it's a bit funny to hear an atheist say "oh my god" or "jesus christ" for whatever reason they deem fit---after all, they're not supposed to believe in either so why shout "OH MY GOD!" out of surprise if you don't believe in it?

It just seems like God's reaching their hearts and that's all their pride allows to break through. But in the end, it doesn't bother me when atheists say it-- it's their problem not mine. :/

 

[Will Graham]

Just because satanists co-opted that symbol does not make it theirs, that's not how it started. If a group of people decided that red lights meant go, would you listen to them?

The pope there, a hardcore Satanist it seems

This thread is not about religious influence in our culture, no one bar you (and now me) are talking about that in this thread. That is an observable fact, not an opinion. This is about religious idioms and whether or not they still have religious meaning. If you have any thoughts on that I'd be glad to hear them, but I am dropping the rest of this conversation now

I do remember my mother telling me not to take the Lord's name in vain when I was a child. I never really got that though, when is it appropriate to use the Lord's name? In times of stress or trauma when you say something like 'Oh my God, this is terrible' that would presumably be when you need your deity, so why not call his name?

Atheists saying things like 'Oh my God' is subliminally holy in the same way that a man who calls his wife honey, subliminally fancies bees

 

[SaShman]

It's interesting to see that some of these phrases still evoke a religious sentiment in some people. To be honest I wasn't really expecting it. I can't help but wonder what kind of impression these phrases would leave on someone learning English.

Upon further thinking, from personal experience, I seem to associate those phrases which are not commonly used in everyday life (in my area) more strongly with religion than the more commonly uttered ones. That is to say I am more likely to assume a person is religious if they use a religious idiom which I do not hear frequently.

K. Hows this for a 'religious idiom'.

This is known as a triquetra.

In some circles, it symbolizes the Trinity - Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Its the emblem imprinted on some Bibles.

It's not a very good idiom.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

Just because satanists co-opted that symbol does not make it theirs, that's not how it started. If a group of people decided that red lights meant go, would you listen to them?

The pope there, a hardcore Satanist it seems

B-but... An upside down cross can mean more than one thing?

This is about religious idioms and whether or not they still have religious meaning. If you have any thoughts on that I'd be glad to hear them, but I am dropping the rest of this conversation now

Sounds good.

I think that the main factor in determining if something is important or not depends on...

A. How often we remember, think about, or talk about something. If something is important we talk about it. If its important we think about it. If its important we remember it.

If a person recites a religious idiom, even unconsciously, they're remembering religion on some level. Even if its not spoken with direct religious intent it is still religious & shows that religion is important to us.

If religion were unimportant we would completely forget about it. We wouldn't say things related to religion or recite religious idioms. Such things would be forgotten entirely.

Like the greek gods in recent movies - religion loses power when its forgotten. When people cease to recite religious idioms, and religion no longer exists in the mind or in remembrance... that will be the day when religion has lost its influence.

I do remember my mother telling me not to take the Lord's name in vain when I was a child. I never really got that though, when is it appropriate to use the Lord's name? In times of stress or trauma when you say something like 'Oh my God, this is terrible' that would presumably be when you need your deity, so why not call his name?

Atheists saying things like 'Oh my God' is subliminally holy in the same way that a man who calls his wife honey, subliminally fancies bees

I think the bible uses a different approach from science.

With science, facts & answers are given away.

With the bible, facts aren't literally available. A person needs to ponder and consider issues & develop the part of their brain associated with critical thinking to find answers.

I'll try to give you an example.

David and Goliath.

David takes 5 rocks and a sling to fight Goliath.

It doesn't sound very impressive.

But, then if you think about it, you might realize Goliath has 4 sons.

Possibly what makes him badass is, he takes one rock for Goliath. And one rock for each of Goliath's sons in case they decide to get revenge? Kind of like entering a gunfight with only one bullet for every enemy?

But, its not spelled out or obvious, so maybe its intentionally vague in such a way that a person has to think about it to really get an answer. -shrug-

Unfortunately for people in general, we're all pretty lazy and typically want the answers handed to us & so very few bother developing any type of critical thinking capacity which might allow us to think for ourselves as individuals..

Upon further thinking, from personal experience, I seem to associate those phrases which are not commonly used in everyday life (in my area) more strongly with religion than the more commonly uttered ones. That is to say I am more likely to assume a person is religious if they use a religious idiom which I do not hear frequently.

I don't think its something that can be quantified. It deals with psychology and the subconscious. Someone saying: "God doesn't exist" could mean the complete opposite. There's irony, denial, and other factors which can muddle and confuse the issue beyond hope of rationalizing.

It's not a very good idiom.

What "isn't" good about it?

 

[moogling]

But I can't help but smile and think it's a bit funny to hear an atheist say "oh my god" or "jesus christ" for whatever reason they deem fit---after all, they're not supposed to believe in either so why shout "OH MY GOD!" out of surprise if you don't believe in it?

you answered this yourself: it is

taking Jesus' name in vain.

"oh my god" is an exclamation. when i exclaim something i'm not thinking about what i'm going to say beforehand. even after i say it i'm not thinking about how great god is.

Unfortunately for people in general, we're all pretty lazy and typically want the answers handed to us & so very few bother developing any type of critical thinking capacity which might allow us to think for ourselves as individuals..

...are you serious

answers are handed to people through the bible. god exists? ok, i believe it because my parents told me so.

if people had any "critical thinking capacity" that allowed them to think for themselves... they'd have... oh science. and rebellious "religions" like atheism and agnosticism.

 

[Will Graham]

A. How often we remember, think about, or talk about something. If something is important we talk about it. If its important we think about it. If its important we remember it.

If a person recites a religious idiom, even unconsciously, they're remembering religion on some level. Even if its not spoken with direct religious intent it is still religious & shows that religion is important to us.

If religion were unimportant we would completely forget about it. We wouldn't say things related to religion or recite religious idioms. Such things would be forgotten entirely.

Like the greek gods in recent movies - religion loses power when its forgotten. When people cease to recite religious idioms, and religion no longer exists in the mind or in remembrance... that will be the day when religion has lost its influence.

This assumes that every person came up with these phrases separately, when in reality we all most likely heard them from others.

Bob's your uncle
For Pete's sake
A different kettle of fish

There are hundreds of other sayings I could post, the point is though that most people using these phrases have no idea where they come from. It is no different for idioms that happen to have a religious word in them

I think the bible uses a different approach from science.

With science, facts & answers are given away.

With the bible, facts aren't literally available. A person needs to ponder and consider issues & develop the part of their brain associated with critical thinking to find answers.

I'll try to give you an example.

David and Goliath.

David takes 5 rocks and a sling to fight Goliath.

It doesn't sound very impressive.

But, then if you think about it, you might realize Goliath has 4 sons.

Possibly what makes him badass is, he takes one rock for Goliath. And one rock for each of Goliath's sons in case they decide to get revenge? Kind of like entering a gunfight with only one bullet for every enemy?

Why not bring ten rocks then, in case he misses?

This has nothing to do with religious idioms, this thread is not religion vs science

 

[Richard B Riddick]

...are you serious

answers are handed to people through the bible. god exists? ok, i believe it because my parents told me so.

My parents never said any such thing. Not even close.

What's with people and stereotypes these days?

if people had any "critical thinking capacity" that allowed them to think for themselves... they'd have... oh science. and rebellious "religions" like atheism and agnosticism.

Don't get me started. :T

I don't think any one group be it atheists, religious people or agnostics has an advantage in critical thinking or being a rebel.

This assumes that every person came up with these phrases separately, when in reality we all most likely heard them from others.

Bob's your uncle
For Pete's sake
A different kettle of fish

There are hundreds of other sayings I could post, the point is though that most people using these phrases have no idea where they come from. It is no different for idioms that happen to have a religious word in them

The etymology of those phrases may be unknown. But, phrases with religious implications are not necessarily so.

Women get upset when men forget anniversaries, birthdays, etc.

It gives the impression that events are not important enough to be remembered.

Constantly reciting or remembering religion through religious phrases could show that they are important enough to be remembered. Possibly there is a human tendency for ppl to swear by the biggest or most awesome think they can think of...

If God is the biggest and most awesome thing a person can think of to swear by... in saying: "Oh my God", then perhaps it does have a deep rooted psychological implication, subconsciously if not conscious.

Why not bring ten rocks then, in case he misses?

Confidence? Faith?