NY gov says Islamic group won't relocate mosque

[The Witch]

Okay, wow, first of all, Jimmeh. I know enough about researching to know the shit I'm talking about.

christianity is just as bad as the islam youre projecting. the only difference is that it has changed to suit the western culture.

Sorry, that, my friend, is bullshit. Show me ANYWHERE in the bible in the NEW TESTAMENT where it says ANYTHING violent, or commands its followers to kill infidels.

@Forty Six & 2

wtf? that's bullshit.........

why don't you properly research islam.......

and since you think that why don't you give me a verse in the quran that directly tells a muslim to blow themself up or kill non-believers.

So don't come up here saying shit like that when you have nothing to back it up with!

Oh, sweetie, you have no idea how wrong you are. I suggest you both read through these very carefully.

“Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari IX:69

“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39

“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:9:123


“Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no Hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:193


“The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Tabari VII:97

“Muhammad’s Companions are the best in war.”
Ishaq:472

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Wow, are they talking about destroying Christians and Jews?

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


And just to get this point across;

 

[DarkShadow]

Why you spreading this hatred towards Islam for........
Islam is the fastest growing religion with all this hatred around it.

Not ALL muslims have a grudge against Jews and Christians.......
the only ones that do is are the terrorists living in Iraq,Pakistan Afghanistan etc!

They are not coming over to the USA to bomb the place.......

Bin Laden and George Bush used to be friend I'm sure 9/11 was much more about their relationship rather than religion.

"if you kill one person (innocent) unjustly as if you killed the whole humanity, and if you saved once person as if you saved the whole humanity"-Al Quran

 

[Gaige]

. "Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."​

Hosea 13:16

"Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..."​

bible god-Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

"(Elisha) went up from there to Bethal; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys."

2 Kings 2:23​

These are the words of a just and loving Christian god?
​

 

[blakstang98]

Alright, this thread is getting derailed with religion talk. Even though religion has a large bearing on this topic, the thread is about whether you agree or disagree with the mosque being built in New York, near Ground Zero, so lets please keep the thread on topic. And of course, keep things civil. We dont' want this topic locked again because of a lack of civility.

 

[The Witch]

Wait--stang, does that mean we can't speak about the religion? Because that's how we, who are against the Mosque, prove our points.

. "Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."​

Hosea 13:16

"Behold the day of the Lord is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished..."​

bible god-Isaiah 13:9, 13:15

"(Elisha) went up from there to Bethal; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys."

2 Kings 2:23​

These are the words of a just and loving Christian god?

Those are all old testament.

 

[Ewan]

Isn't this what happened in the last thread? A competition between religions where the winner is obviously the one with fewer atrocities.

The building of the Islamic cultural centre isn't illegal. If they have followed the appropriate laws, then they can build it wherever they like. They are not obligated to stop because some people are offended. It doesn't work like that.
And even so, it's not an Al-Qaeda youth club. It's not promoting, condoning or encouraging extremism. In fact, quite the opposite. It's for the majority of Muslims who aren't terrorists.

an advocacy group that promotes improved relations between Islam and the West.

This is a good thing. Denying them (and calling their religion a "hate following") would only increase the already high levels of Islamophobia... which is only going to encourage the sort of attacks that offend them in the first place.

Sorry, that, my friend, is bullshit. Show me ANYWHERE in the bible in the NEW TESTAMENT where it says ANYTHING violent, or commands its followers to kill infidels.

Just out of curiosity, why did you not ask him to show you anything from the Old Testament? Does that not count? I'm not trying to be clever or cheeky, I genuinely want to know why you didn't mention the OT.

Also, I was writing whilst you posted that update stang.

 

[blakstang98]

Wait--stang, does that mean we can't speak about the religion? Because that's how we, who are against the Mosque, prove our points.

You can talk religion, but tie it into the topic. As opposed to just debating strictly about religion.

EDIT: Yeah, I figured that Ewan. No worries.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

cali, your point's been destroyed. its a good thing there are some sensibile people like jesse around

as for trying to hush hush religious talk thats what the whole thing's about. ignorant american christians blaming islam for terrorist attacks.

old testament is just as relevant as the new testament. after all if some islamic leaders decided to add a new section to the qu'ran which played down all the "terrible" things it incites you would still quote the old stuff to justify your point.

 

[Toshiya]

I'm not the slightest bit religious so I don't claim to know the Bible or the Qu'ran inside out.
But I will say that after studying religion at school, that there are passages in almost any religious book that could be interpreted by some people to mean that they should be violent.
The fact of the matter is, a very, very small minority of Muslims are extremists. Definitely not all of them. So blaming everyone who is a Muslim for 9/11 is, in my book, totally out of order.
Sure, some Americans might be sore about it (and I've already explained, I think, if only to avoid conflict, the mosque could have been built elsewhere) but saying the Islamic religion is full of violent people just because of the actions of a few people is totally wrong.

 

[DarkShadow]

Cali.........don't know why your hatin on islam.......but damn get a grip and I don't know how old you are but grow up.

Just because a few muslims caused 9/11 doesn't mean all muslims are terrorists!

I can tell by your profile pic that your really hating on islam........but wtf why not research Islam postively instead of listining to other sources.

Do you go on christian extremist websites to research islam?

USA were responsible for the Hiroshima bombings!

and anyway I think you USA have caused enough damage ever since 9/11 around 2 million people got killed in Iraq............

2000 people dead in 9/11 2 million dead in Iraq because of that

 

[The Witch]

You can talk religion, but tie it into the topic. As opposed to just debating strictly about religion.

Okay, then, cool.

Just out of curiosity, why did you not ask him to show you anything from the Old Testament? Does that not count? I'm not trying to be clever or cheeky, I genuinely why you didn't mention the OT.

Also, I was writing whilst you posted that update stang.

Because Jesus fulfilled the old testament so we wouldn't have to. Therefor meaning, any violent verses from the Old Testament is, think of it as, overshadowed.

The Qur'an on the other hand has this to say in modern days;
“Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari IX:69

“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39

“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:9:123


“Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no Hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:193


“The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Tabari VII:97

“Muhammad’s Companions are the best in war.”
Ishaq:472

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Wow, are they talking about destroying Christians and Jews?

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


The Qur'an is what Muslims follow; if the Qur'an tells them to kill all infidels and hate Christians and Jews, then, as a Muslim, they MUST follow it. And like I said before, Muslims build Mega Mosques on conquered grounds. They did it to Spain, Istanbul, and Jerusalem, and they're planning on doing on the grounds of 9/11.

 

[Toshiya]

So what... just because Jesus said 'oh, these teachings on violence are perfectly ok' that means that they should be discounted as being violent?
I'm not trying to get into a religious debate here but what you just said really confused me

 

[The Witch]

cali, your point's been destroyed. its a good thing there are some sensibile people like jesse around

How so?

old testament is just as relevant as the new testament. after all if some islamic leaders decided to add a new section to the qu'ran which played down all the "terrible" things it incites you would still quote the old stuff to justify your point.

No I wouldn't. If all of Islam came together and said enough is enough and decided to overwrite what their "holy" Qur'an COMMANDS them to do, then I wouldn't give two rat's asses.

The fact of the matter is, a very, very small minority of Muslims are extremists. Definitely not all of them. So blaming everyone who is a Muslim for 9/11 is, in my book, totally out of order.

But calling all Christians racist crazies, or calling all Jews infidels is okay?

but saying the Islamic religion is full of violent people just because of the actions of a few people is totally wrong.

Let me rephrase what I said. If a true Muslim FOLLOWS what their Qur'an tells them to do; like beating their wives, killing infidels, smiling at the infidel while cursing them in their hearts--then THOSE are the Muslims I'm talking about. And if a Muslim honestly does not believe in the DOZENS UPON DOZENS of quotes from the Qur'an that I just posted above--then they aren't real Muslims. And the Muslims over there would happily agree with me.

Cali.........don't know why your hatin on islam.......but damn get a grip and I don't know how old you are but grow up.

Umm, am I getting angry? No. But you are. Take your own advise.

I can tell by your profile pic that your really hating on islam........but wtf why not research Islam postively instead of listining to other sources.

No, all my icon says is that I am an infidel. And Muslims call me that.

So what... just because Jesus said 'oh, these teachings on violence are perfectly ok' that means that they should be discounted as being violent?
I'm not trying to get into a religious debate here but what you just said really confused me

No, what the crap are you talking about. Jesus didn't say it was okay. He said it WAS WRONG and shouldn't be seen as okay anymore.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

as a christian you obviously cant see it from the point of view other people can.

jesus didnt do anything for me. god tells me nothing. im not religious therefore i dont believe any of the stuff thats in the bible. but if the son of god playing down a book which clearly incites violence is enough to make you think you can ignore it then surely if allah tells these people they can kill other people just for not believing then thats ok too?

if your god can tell you what to do, their god can tell them what to do.

Let me rephrase what I said. If a true Muslim FOLLOWS what their Qur'an tells them to do; like beating their wives, killing infidels, smiling at the infidel while cursing them in their hearts--then THOSE are the Muslims I'm talking about. And if a Muslim honestly does not believe in the DOZENS UPON DOZENS of quotes from the Qur'an that I just posted above--then they aren't real Muslims. And the Muslims over there would happily agree with me.

and if you followed what the WHOLE bible tells you to do, you'd be no better. so i suppose that means youre not a real christian?

 

[Ewan]

You don't have to keep posting the Quran quotes because I'm not talking about that.

Because Jesus fulfilled the old testament so we wouldn't have to. Therefor meaning, any violent verses from the Old Testament is, think of it as, overshadowed.

Uh, hold on. If he fulfilled the OT, how does it follow that the violent ones don't count? You're going to have to show me the verse(s) that you're referring to because getting from "he fulfills the OT" to "only the violent verses" doesn't make sense.
Again, I'm not trying to be clever or cheeky, I just want to see where your reasoning comes from.

On a side note... there's no way that I can't talk about religion. If someone backs up a point citing a holy book then how can I reply without talking about religion? It's just the nature of debates to move to other topics. Are we supposed to create a new thread each time a debate shifts?

 

[Toshiya]

No, what the crap are you talking about. Jesus didn't say it was okay. He said it WAS WRONG and shouldn't be seen as okay anymore.

Excuse me, I don't really get what you're on about either. I never said calling all Christians racist was ok, I said calling all Muslims terrorists was NOT ok. There's a difference.

Also, regardless of what Jesus said about the Old Testament there are still passages detailing violence in it. That doesn't change the fact that they are still there, and they can be read, and some people could choose to follow them.

I'm going to stop now. Sorry Dan

 

[blakstang98]

On a side note... there's no way that I can't talk about religion. If someone backs up a point citing a holy book then how can I reply without talking about religion? It's just the nature of debates to move to other topics. Are we supposed to create a new thread each time a debate shifts?

I'm not saying don't talk about religion, I'm saying to please tie it into the topic. The thread title is "NY gov says Islamic group won't relocate mosque", not "Are Islams bad?" or "How do you compare Islam with Christianity?". The last several posts have been about comparing and stated passages in religious documentation, which is not about a mosque in NY or the governor of NY's religious beliefs.

That being said, this thread is very close to being closed because of this. So I ask again, please, stay on topic with the thread. Religious talk is fine, but tie it in with the topic. And also, DarkShadow, be civil. You don't want to be infracted for bashing someone elses opinion.

Eventually, I'll make a post, and people will understand what I'm saying and what I'm talking about. I'm tired of having my words translated incorrectly.

 

[Harlequin]

Eventually, yes. In a "Hey, they're not really that bad after all" sort of way.

It's still a very hardheaded approach to me. A building is nothing more than a pile of bricks. They can preach wherever they want and wherever they want sure, but a religious building is symbolism which ties directly to the affair of 9 years ago.

Because, again, the qualms come out of sheer ignorance. Ground Zero may be symbolic to a small number of Americans, but a building two blocks away is not.

But it's a question of proximity. Also, there are those who I would say have a valid argument in having reservations over a mosque so close to a site which has become symbolic for international terrorism.

The only 'respect' they want is the right to build a religious building on a plot of land they've legally purchased.

Which is fair enough. I hadn't suggested what they were doing was illegal but perhaps a tad bit derespectful, symbolically speaking of course, to some locals who would have reservations on the idea.

Respect that, allegedly, is built into our Constitution. But they are being singled out because they are specifically Muslim. That is wrong.

Wrong when referencing the constitution? The same constitution that allows America to go to war with whomever they please? I don't mean for this to be an attack, but people call religion arbitrary...

If a church or church leader

A church is wherever two Christians convene to discuss the Bible. If you're referring to the building, it's just materials. If you're referring to a hierarchy, no such thing exists on Earth unless you're speaking of Catholicism.

specifically takes a political approach while preaching in a service, or endorses a candidate, or endorses a party, that church is in danger of losing its status as a church. For example, if a government agent heard a preacher at a local church say "Abortion is a sin," no problem. But if that same preacher said "Candidate X believes that abortion is a sin. S/he would be a good choice in the upcoming election," they could be stripped of their status. Which, in most cases, would bankrupt the church. Threaten any religious building over here with losing their tax-exempt status, and they'll freak out. The only way they do that is when they start losing their focus on being a religious group.

Of course, that doesn't apply outside the walls of the church. For example, Mormon church leader Rick Warren going on Faux News and saying he's for Prop 8 (the gay marriage ban in California) isn't covered under this, as it's not during a church service.

"Caesar's," They replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, And to God what is God's" - Matthew 22:21

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

Christian's are not exempt from the law unless it collides with the values of the Bible. If a Church 'leader' breaks the law imprison him.

Nothing wrong with criticizing a religious institution or its adherents. I do it all the time. The problem in this case is that the criticism only exists for the one religion in one specific case, when the same criticism could be applied to another religion for the exact same reasons. But it isn't. Which is hypocrisy. And that's all I was pointing out through that example. The inherent hypocrisy in the argument.

The problem is some are misinterpreted while others could well be genuine. By saying all religions have to be fall under the same scrutiny of their referencing is fine, but many people hide behind the argument of pointing to what they believe to be another religion's faults once they believe their own has been exposed. The same would apply to socially conscious Agnostics/Atheists who ironically enough will make a sweeping generalisation on every religion to spare one from scrutiny and seem 'fair', as it were. I'm not accusing you of this btw, only that it happens. Often.

extremists carried out the attack, not muslims.

They were muslims. Whether you believe they were adhering to the moral code of Islam is different to what they were. They believed Allah was the only God and Muhammed was his messenger.

ask any muslim who doesnt go about blowing themselves up whether they condone the actions of these people. ask any islamic leader who doesnt send people on suicide missions.

Ask any islamic leader who does send people on such missions and see what they say.

if i start preaching hate and happen to mention jesus or god or quote the bible that doesnt make me a christian.

But the belief does. If you've accepted Jesus as the Son of God you have submitted yourself to his judgement, free will would allow you to do whatever you wanted (rape, murder, etc) and only the state (Caesar) and God could judge you.

so it shouldnt be the case with extremists who just happen to quote from islamic scripture.

And the same to those who would suggest Islam is a peaceful religion. If you want to make an informed opinion on Islam you need only read the Quran or obtain several translated copies and see how they compare to one another. Of course someone of a given religion would advertise their religion in the most appealing manner, we can't take that attitude as a given just because it's what we'd like to believe.

if it was all about killing people we'd probably all be dead by now, since we're not we can assume theyre just as...harmless (what a joke) as any other faith.

Assumptions are the bane of this society. We assume too much and no one actually wants to learn. No one actually wants to broaden their horizons.

In school we are rarely taught to think independently, we're taught to behave, to fit in. Assumption breeds ignorance and bigotry.

I've heard verses from the Qu'ran that preach subjugation and violence from muslims. I've heard these verses have been taken out of context from what people would call 'normal' muslims. The difference? The former makes a much more incisive argument than the latter, who in my experiences at least makes no argument whatsoever other than 'they've been taken out of context'.

 

[The Witch]

if your god can tell you what to do, their god can tell them what to do.

Jimmeh, that's...not the point. The point is that their Qur'an tells them to do all of those terrible things. Like killing jews and Christians, stoning woman for something that they usually haven't done, etc.

Examples;

They're so peaceful. Those are Muslims in their countries speaking their minds about Jews and Christians.

Read these quotes;

“Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari IX:69

“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39

“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:9:123


“Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no Hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:193


“The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Tabari VII:97

“Muhammad’s Companions are the best in war.”
Ishaq:472

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Wow, are they talking about destroying Christians and Jews?

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."


You can't know what you're talking about unless you do.

 

[Ewan]

And I'm saying how can anyone possibly do that? This is a debate section and that is the nature of debate. If we have to stay on topic then no one will be able to reply to someone else's post/reasoning unless their reasoning is on topic... which it rarely is. Why Cali thinks the way she does isn't related to NY in any way so I anything I post regarding that will be off topic and so I can't debate.