Ammendment 26 Voting today

[Shu]

In the lovely state of Mississippi here in the US, an amendment is being voted on to decide women's rights in pre-born baby handling. What does this mean?

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/08/us/mississippi-personhood-amendment/?hpt=hp_c1

Mississippi voters are casting ballots Tuesday on an amendment to the state constitution that would define life as beginning at the moment of conception.

Initiative 26 would define person hood as "every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof." Though the text of the amendment is simple, the implications if it passes couldn't be more complex. If approved by voters, it would make it impossible to get an abortion in the state and hamper the ability to get some forms of birth control.


Because the amendment would define a fertilized egg as a person with full legal rights, it could have an impact on a woman's ability to get the morning-after pill or birth control pills that destroy fertilized eggs.
It could make in vitro fertilization treatments more difficult because it could become illegal to dispose of unused fertilized eggs. This could lead to a nationwide debate about women's rights and abortion while setting up a possible challenge to the landmark Roe v. Wade case, which makes abortion legal.

- This will essentially take away any form of abortion. As soon as you conceive, you wouldn't be able to get a morning after pill.

- Birth control disallowed

- Invitro would be almost impossible due to the fact that you wouldn't be able to dispose of bad fertilization.

- You can be charged for miscarrying or having a still born.

So do ya'll think this is crazy that some religious extremists are hell bent on doing away with Abortion even to the smallest craziest level?

This is a for real ammendment folks, if this passes.. welcome to hell Ladies of Mississippi. If this passes, let's step back in the past with ignorance.. instead of going forward with freedom

 

[Richard B Riddick]

This is how US healthcare reform "makes" healthcare cheaper.

Step 1: Cut the cost of abortions from healthcare plans.

Step 1: Blame it on religion.

Abortions are far from being the only items cut from a persons healthcare plan. Prostate exams, mammograms, & other items are being cut.

In some cases, ppl are trying to cut circumcisions & other items from healthcare as well.

Its not about ideology, beliefs, or abstracts.

Its about money. And class warfare.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

The government has already cut state funding normally budgeted for abortions in more than one state.

• Pennsylvania cut abortion funding
• north carolina cut abortion funding
• Insert other states that have done it here

They've also cut funding to planned parenthood, etcetera.

This is just the latest nail in the coffin really..

 

[Rapture]

I heard about this on the news...I didn't know the exact details of it but I thought it was just outlawing abortion in general. I don't personally believe in abortion, myself...unless it's case of life and death to the mother. Now I know people people who are victims of rape probably don't want to carry their victim's child and etc...but if they are too late to recieve the morning after pill then they could always carry the child to term and put it up for adoption. I knew someone who ended up doing this.

No birth control though...is on the extreme of extremes. Not all of us use it for birth control but to help us survive that time of the month...so thanks for telling us that women have the right to suffer for a week or sometimes more during the month. Be prepared for a lot of pissed off pms'n women guys...and for good reason too

So basically, the law is going to be "You don't have sex unless you want to have children." which is absurd.

I hope they have some sort of plan in effect for when victims of rape come around and don't want to have the child that occurs from it...because it will happen and I'm sure it'll involve a lawsuit of some sorts.

Also, being charged for a MISCARRIAGE or stillbirth Hello!!!??? Do we ever tell our bodies to voluntarily abort our children??? No. We don't. It's something that naturally occurs that decides the baby isn't fit for life...or some travesty that happens when something goes wrong and the baby doesn't survive. Cripes. I hate to be sexist but it must've been men who helped write up this bill...because getting a woman who has lost a child due to a stillbirth to sign this would be about as easy as trying to nail JELL-O to a wall.

Even I hope this doesn't pass. If it does I'm sure people will just go to other states to get it done anyways.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

Also, being charged for a MISCARRIAGE or stillbirth Hello!!!??? Do we ever tell our bodies to voluntarily abort our children??? No. We don't. It's something that naturally occurs that decides the baby isn't fit for life...or some travesty that happens when something goes wrong and the baby doesn't survive. Cripes. I hate to be sexist but it must've been men who helped write up this bill...because getting a woman who has lost a child due to a stillbirth to sign this would be about as easy as trying to nail JELL-O to a wall.

There have been cases where pregnant women convinced someone to punch or kick them in the stomach to intentionally cause a miscarriage.

That may be the weak excuse cited for that part of it.

 

[Rapture]

Especially those women with PCOS. Periods when you have that disease are about 1000 times more intense and painful.

...and Endometriosis. Progesterone and Estrogen BCP's are part of the treatment for that disease as opposed to or with surgery...PMDD too...among others I don't know how they expect people to manage their medical conditions without them

I completely agree. What woman in their right mind has the control over a miscarriage or still birth? But I guess they're doing this in case there's those women that will take medication or harm themselves to deliberately cause harm to the unborn. :/

A blood toxicology screen/urine drug screen would easily confirm the presence of drugs in a questionable case of self-induced abortion. It would be really sad if they hold no reservations when they charge someone whose body naturally aborts their baby.

EDIT: ...and to the above post...That's really sad, but I suppose like anything, it does happen. If that is found to be the case, the mom really doesn't need to be charged for an "induced" abortion...but she really needs to be evaluated for psychiatric treatment.

 

[moogling]

But since birth control is not allowed, I'm curious, does that mean when these girls have a period they're gonna be murdering too?

No, when women menstruate it's only the egg cell and uterine wall being shed. There's no life involved since it hasn't been fertilized.

Not gonna go nuts about this, just hoping it doesn't catch on to other states. Though I would bet money if it does you'll see only southern states push it. Everyone knows charging a mother who just lost her child to stillbirth with a crime is far more unethical than any abortion, and everyone knows if there is valid evidence towards a rape then no questions asked, if the mother wants to abort, she needs to be able to do so. I honestly can't wrap my head around why some people are so hellbent on making everyone conform to their beliefs, and just can't accept the fact that even though we are human and we have empathy, some things we can't make so black and white.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

its such a backward way of thinking. imo the anti-abortion thing mostly stems from "because jesus says" or "because the pope says" (sorry to be crude if you're a christian).

religion has no place in modern law - if you have a legitimate reason beyond religion for expecting a woman to carry a child when she does not want to (for whatever reason) then i'd like to hear it.

my earliest memory is maybe when i was 6ish, so i cant claim to have been aware while i was in the womb and i doubt many people can. if you are "killed" before you're even aware that you exist then what difference does it make? its not like youre going to float up to heaven and say "fuck sake, i really wish i hadnt been aborted!" etc.

i immediately thought "only in america" and it doesnt surprise me one little bit that its in the bible belt either. medical insurance is pretty fucking useless if it doesnt cover you for things you need.

ps: i dont know about america but there are regulations for abortion clinics etc. for instance a child cannot be aborted passed a certain age. we're not talking about evil doctors dragging baked buns out their mothers' ovens and drowning them in buckets. im sure in many circumstances (probably most) an abortion is a very emotional thing for a woman, there are of course those who treat abortions as an alternative to contraception but who are we to judge? if a woman doesnt want to carry a baby she shouldnt be made to. you know theyre not just for christmas. theyre for life.

 

[Will Graham]

I am quite sure that many atheists are pro-life, but I'm digressing from the main point of the thread

I am pro-choice but if the motion passes, then it passes. If the majority wants the motion passed, then it will be passed because that is how democracy works. I do not understand why it is necessary, if you are pro-life then just don't get an abortion, but whatever.

If you are pro-choice and the motion passes, I'd imagine crossing state-lines to a pro-choice state wouldn't be too difficult. People here head across to England for them, I do not think it matters which way the amendment goes

 

[Richard B Riddick]

I think articles on this topic are neglecting to mention some things.

The following is part of the real reason for anti-abortion legislation.

Researcher: Abortions Cost Economy $35 Trillion Since 1970 in Lost Productivity

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) – A researcher who has spent over a decade examining the economic impact of abortion finds that the approximately 50,5 million abortions in the U.S. since 1970 have cost the American economy $35 trillion. That comes in the form of lost productivity by having fewer workers contributing to society.

http://www.lifenews.com/2008/10/13/nat-4440/

Religion doesn't have the influence necessary to make things like this happen.

The prolifers hardcore enough to push for this are a tiny minority with little influence.

Like I said its not about religion.

Its about money & beancounter bureaucratic statistics.

Also, its about the government not wanting to provide funding for abortions anymore.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

I think articles on this topic are neglecting to mention some things.

The following is part of the real reason for anti-abortion legislation.



Religion doesn't have the influence necessary to make things like this happen.

The prolifers hardcore enough to push for this are a tiny minority with little influence.

Like I said its not about religion.

Its about money & beancounter bureaucratic statistics.

Also, its about the government not wanting to provide funding for abortions anymore.

you've used an article posted by the editor of a pro-life website on his own website which basically says "killing babies is bad for the economy". the quality of dis source is questionable. devout christian senators etc seems a much more likely reason for this silly ammendment thingie.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

you've used an article posted by the editor of a pro-life website on his own website which basically says "killing babies is bad for the economy". the quality of dis source is questionable. devout christian senators etc seems a much more likely reason for this silly ammendment thingie.

Republicans tried to kill social security & medicare.

They've tried to kill unemployment benefits & other social programs which rely on taxpayer funding.

State funded abortions are only the latest target.

If you understand why the state would want to end unemployment benefits, social security and medicare you might understand why they would want to end abortions.



If you can't explain why they would cut social security or medicare -- you can't explain why they would want to cut abortions. Its that simple, bro.

Thunder & lightning storm here. It sounds like bombs are going off which is kind of cool as long as no one gets hurt. Gone for awhile~

 

[Shu]

You do understand this is not just about abortion Richard, this is about the minimalist level of it too. The stuff that people don't tell you when voting. The main thing I'm really bitching about here is birth control and invitro and still born.

Apparently if you know you have a disease but want to try to have a kid anyway and it dies, you can be charged with murder. You think I'm joking too. They are basically saying that if a baby is conceived (next day even) and you choose to do something ignorant, because you didn't know and miscarried.. you could be charged for it due to this is declaring fetuses or whatever a person..

That's what burns me up. Plan B pill as a form of abortion? If you didn't know you were pregnant and say you were sick for whatever reason.. and boom charged with murder.

This bill basically says .. A person is a person when they are conceived. Period. So a 30 year old female, is the same thing as an egg and sperm freshly conjoined. That's some sick shit.

 

[Will Graham]

Ah shoester you have opened my eyes, I had not fully realised the implications.

Apparently if you know you have a disease but want to try to have a kid anyway and it dies, you can be charged with murder. You think I'm joking too. They are basically saying that if a baby is conceived (next day even) and you choose to do something ignorant, because you didn't know and miscarried.. you could be charged for it due to this is declaring fetuses or whatever a person..

I did not think of that at all, it has far more implications then simply outlawing abortion. This would destroy so many lives so quickly if it built up any following, and as soon as one case was won it'd be a catastrophe. It's incredibly ridiculous

 

[Linnaete]

A miscarriage in itself is an emotionally traumatising experience. What better than to criminalise the mother as well while we're here because it's a well known fact that it's her fault, right? Stupid murderous bitch.

If this passes, way to go; you're taking the state one major step back towards the 1950s. Rather than getting riled up in outrage and whatever else I would normally do, one thing has to be considered first. Even if this very reactionary, extreme initiative even passes, it's going to face difficulties in practice, surely? For one, it kind of flies against the Roe v. Wade ruling of 1973 as stated, which was in itself a constitutional ruling, and the fact that it's rather contradictory to the doctrine of liberty that I hear being constantly championed?

At the end of the day, words are futile anyway. Proponents of this initiative already firmly believe that this is right and just, sporting their own dangerously broad definition of what life is. Saving several fertilised cells would be preferable to saving a woman who may be at the brink of her life, and that revoking a woman's right to choose is a necessity. In the long run, Mississippi would only be screwing itself. This is one of the poorest states and with some of the highest birth rates of teenage pregnancy if I recall correctly. This initiative would perhaps be the most counterproductive thing you can do.

If you are staunchly pro-life and you do not believe in abortions whatsoever, then that is your call. You do whatever you feel is right, but leave others alone. You oughtn't to have any right to tell someone who doesn't follow your own doctrine what they can and can't do - and this applies to any branch of religion. There's no place for that in this century.

 

[Donald Trump]

I'm far too lazy to read the Ammendment, but I doubt anyone is going to criminalise miscarriages. Unless it was some Ammendment by the Monster Raving Looney Party, and by that I don't mean the Republicans. Thank you, I'm here all week.
I have read it and it says nothing about charging women if they have miscarriages.
But this isn't very shocking, a draconian law passed in America, who'd have guessed.

 

[Shu]

I'm far too lazy to read the Ammendment, but I doubt anyone is going to criminalise miscarriages. Unless it was some Ammendment by the Monster Raving Looney Party, and by that I don't mean the Republicans. Thank you, I'm here all week.
I have read it and it says nothing about charging women if they have miscarriages.
But this isn't very shocking, a draconian law passed in America, who'd have guessed.

Think about it. If you have a woman who basically says she wants to have a kid, but the doctor diagnoses her with a disease that says she can not conceive without risking her or the baby. The baby dies, and it is still considered human, well then.. it's murder due to ignoring the doctor's findings.

 

[Donald Trump]

That sounds very Alex Jones, the government is poisoning people by putting flouride in the water, chem trails are killing everyone 9/11 was an inside job etc etc.
They don't seem to be the most reliable source of news.
I don't see how the scenario you described could possibly be considered murder. Even the scenarios they were describing weren't as bad as the one you mentioned.

 

[Rapture]

Upon looking into this a bit more...because of the seriousness of the topic...This bill just states that a sperm and an egg at the moment of fertilization is considered a person. It is under my assumption that is what people will be agreeing with when they vote "yes" to this ammendment.

The "can of worms" is opened when they start making further definitions and implications of that statement with this ammendment.

"Since the Pill hit the U.S. market in 1960, millions of women have been prescribed this method of birth control, and more than 12 million American women are currently taking it.
These women are both young and old, single and married. Though they may be from different backgrounds, every woman who has taken the Pill has one thing in common: She is taking a rational and responsible approach to her sexual health and family planning.

But on Nov. 8, birth control could become illegal in the state of Mississippi; yet another unintended consequence of Initiative 26. This so-called “Personhood Amendment” will change the legal definition of the word “person” in Article 111 of the state constitution to include “every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof.”

Personhood USA, the main force backing the movement, was first attempted in Colorado in 2008. After two failed attempts at amending the Colorado constitution in both 2008 and in 2010, the organization set its sights on Mississippi. While Initiative 26 would achieve the organization’s agenda of illegalizing abortion in the state, the proponents continually fail to address the drastic and sweeping consequences that will arise with the very vague language of the proposed amendment.

When addressing sensitive topics like abortion, I choose to present only the facts. Whether you are anti-abortion or not, religious or not, your vote should be “no” on Nov. 8, and here is why.

Unlike other anti-abortion movements that are solely about abortion, Personhood USA’s tactics overshoot its goal, raising far more questions than it answers. For example, defining “personhood” at conception would allow for the criminal prosecution of women who miscarry. An estimated 15 percent of all pregnancies end in a natural miscarriage. Would that mean a woman could be charged with involuntary manslaughter? Murder?
Would law enforcement be obligated to open and investigate a case with every miscarriage? Amendment 26 fails to address these implications.

Amendment 26 would effectively outlaw birth control, and this is why. In addition to blocking egg fertilization, most brands of the birth control pill thin the lining of the uterine wall. This thinning means that on the off-chance that an egg is fertilized, it is prevented from attaching to the uterus altogether, and the woman essentially “miscarries.”
This secondary mechanism helps to make the birth control pill 99.9 percent effective, but is also what would call its legality into question should Amendment 26 pass in November.
Abortion is a complex, sensitive and difficult issue to address. Whereas many anti-abortion activists would permit exceptions to women who were victims of incest or rape, or in the case of a pregnancy endangering the life of the mother, the Personhood Amendment makes no room for such provisions. A woman is compelled to carry the child to term no matter the circumstances, even if her life is at risk.

Amendment 26 could illegalize clinically assisted fertility techniques like in vitro fertilization. The procedure involves implanting zygotes that are fertilized outside of the body back into a woman’s uterus, and many do not survive this process. Since the Personhood Amendment would define each fertilized egg as a person, both the mother and the doctor conducting the procedure would face legal repercussions.

Amendment 26 will deny essential health and reproductive options and services to all women living in the state of Mississippi, not only Mississippi residents. There are thousands of out-of-state women at Ole Miss alone (myself included), and the university accepted an unprecedented number of out-of-state students in this year’s freshman class. Each and every one of those women will be affected by this amendment. Does this mean that we would have to get our prescriptions filled in Memphis? Could we have it sent to us? Or would it be treated as “controlled substance”, illegal to have at all?"

Source: http://thedmonline.com/article/facts-about-amendment-26

 

[Stoic Hero]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just slow, but how does this even affect birth control? The bill says that the point of conception is when life starts, right? So if the woman is taking birth control, she can't very well conceive, can she? It shouldn't have any effect on birth control.

Anyway, I'm pro-life, I believe in contraception only in marriage, and I believe that sex should only be between a married man and woman. I agree that life begins at the point of conception. I do not believe birth control should be done away with, partly because it helps with periods, and partly because I still believe a married couple should be able to have sex without fear of having another child. As far as abortion goes, I believe it should be outlawed and only particularly available in extreme cases. Very, very extreme, such as if the mother is going to die if they don't abort the baby.