Aerith and her Faith

[Squid]

Why can't it just be their version of their own god? A lot of people have brown hair too, so thats not really much evidence...

 

[GalaxyFlare]

So is the basic argument here that Aeris is a Christain or that Christianity exist with in the world of FFVII? I got your example Cali, the stuff you are talking about needing verifying is fundamental and implied, its too obvious to need explaining and there only an idiot would need to ask.

Not implying anything there at any one.

But the basis of your questions and points are not so fundamental and implied you are indeed imposing your own beliefs on a system where they do not belong, or to put it another way where they are non-existent.

The fact that people recognise such things in the details of a game is a good thing......for you, but not everyone sees things the same way, examples are given and different point of view are expressed about there validity to confirm your argument.

That in itself is a macrocosm of the very disparity that is demonstrated between believes and non-believers, implied confirmation because of belief in circumstantial evidence or symbols symbols is not enough to sway the opinion of everyone interested in the argument.

Faith may convince you Aerith is a practicer of Christain beliefs, but not everyone has your level of faith or any faith at all. Why is it so important if she is or does belief in Christianity?

Aeris is an ancient and that is all we need to know.

There are 3 groups involved in this thread:

Proponents
Indifference
Opposition

This last word seems somewhat adversarial, but the majority of arguments are just expressing that they dont recognise the evidence as such.

Anything apart from the basic fundamental facts about FFVII is nothing but conjecture
and personal opinion, its good people believe ans see things in places not other wise stated, its good but only for the person who believes.

In Habeo fundus Antiquitus Aerith Esse Non Deus

 

[CassinoChips]

See that in the window. It is a figure(topped with brown hair) with a glowing halo behind his head.

Very odd coincidence.

Indeed. And it's a good find. But again, it's simply religious iconography, and halos are not the exclusive domain of Christianity. Within Christianity, that could be Mary, a saint, an Apostle, or who knows how many other figures. And a sampling of some other religions that use halos, or the concept of light surrounding the head of an important individual within their artwork/iconography: Islam, Greek (and therefore Roman) mythology, Egyptian mythology, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

 

[MagicMasher]

This may seem a bit off topic, but isn't that also kind of like saying that since the entire Persona series uses icons from various religions and mythologies that there is a definite "religion" in the SMT Persona series?

Just a thought.

 

[Terra Branford]

http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/f...th-and-her-faith-42990-page27.html#post871774

I'd really like to see someone answer Baby Doll's post. You guys say religion cannot exist in a Final Fantasy title, but her post proves that wrong.

You see Mother Mary before Firion (< Clickable), you see the churches in 7 and older games, you see Buddha in 7, you can see Jesus in 7(though because it was 1997 and couldn't emulate better graphics, its "invalid") and then in FF9 we see the talk of the Day of the Sabbath. You all say it can't and doesn't exist in the FF titles when that's completely wrong.

Wasn't it Nintendo that told FF Creators to remove the Christian/religious imagery from their games? You can't remove what's not there, so that there proves you guys wrong. Religion does in fact, exist in Final Fantasy.

Indeed. And it's a good find. But again, it's simply religious iconography, and halos are not the exclusive domain of Christianity.

Within Christianity, that could be Mary, a saint, an Apostle, or who knows how many other figures.

If its Mary, Paul, Job or anyone else from Abrahamic religion, its still a reference and image of Christianity/Catholics/Jewish Religion and is meant to be in the game.

Halos over a man with brown hair, in a garb, on a CHURCH window, by a Church which belongs to a woman who prays and calls on the aid of Angels and calls on The Gospel?

So you expect someone to believe this is all simply coincidence?

And a sampling of some other religions that use halos, or the concept of light surrounding the head of an important individual within their artwork/iconography: Islam, Greek (and therefore Roman) mythology, Egyptian mythology, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

(Don't say this is off-topic, this is proof it is not an Islamic Angel. )

The last time I checked, the Last Prophet in Islam did not have brown hair or have a bare face. It was Muhammad, therefor this CANNOT be an Islamic reference ESPECIALLY since its on a Church.

Also, in Islam, Angels cannot be called down by anyone other than Allah to help or called on at all (see Qur’ānic verse "16:49-50"). The only type of Angel to ignore the commands of Allah and do as he says, is Jinn, which I can assure you right now, does not look like an Angel. I have just recently had this discussion with four Muslims to help me understand it better, so there are differences, believe me

Jinn are made of Fire, Angels in Islam is made from Light. Angels cannot reproduce, Jinn can. Angels cannot disobey Allah or act on their own or heckles, answer the prayers of a woman. Jinn can disobey and do as they want. They also have magical powers and whatnot.

And let me tell you a little extra something, Satan in Islam is a Jinn, though not all Jinn are evil, they aren't Angels.

For more about Disobeying Angels and how once they do, they aren't "angels" anymore, you can buy Ahadith about them or a Qur’ān. :>

Though in Islam, everyone has a Guardian Angel that tracks their good and bad deeds, this cannot happen (people calling on the physical aid of Angels, only the spiritual [ex. Asking for spiritual protection]) in the Islamic religion. Only Christianity, Catholicism and Jewish religion (and I believe I mentioned a few religions also, the last time I posted.).

Also, might I point out that the Islamic Angel, does not look like the Angel in FF7. For a reference of an Islamic angel and Muhammad (so one cannot say that the CHURCH window could be him, here is an image of the two)

<Please click me> (Image made in 1306)
Please Click me (Image made in 13)

The Islamic Angel is nowhere near the Angel shown in FF7. Just look at the 10-11 century paintings and the previous paintings, of Muhammad's first Revelation or when Jibril (Gabriel) gave him his revelations. So to say that it COULD be an Islamic Angel is just...well, silly.

There is also the Qur’ānic and Ahadith verses describing the Angels of Islam.

I asked Zir bin Hubaish regarding the Statement of Allah: "And was at a distance Of but two bow-lengths Or (even) nearer; So did (Allah) onvey The Inspiration to His slave (Gabriel) and then he (Gabriel) Conveyed (that to Muhammad). (53.9-10)[13] On that, Zir said, "Ibn Mas'ud informed us that the Prophet had seen Gabriel having 600 wings." ​

—Sahih al-Bukhari​

Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four (pairs): He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things.
—Qur'an, sura 35 (Fatir) ayat 1[15]
​

Muhammad also describes Angels to have wings so wide, it covers up all of the east and west. So again, not an Islamic Angel, so you can count that out.

With the given verses, you can look at the images I have provided that has been painted when Muhammad was about (not in 1300th of course xD) and after, by people who fell from the line of "trustworthy" people Muhammad personally picked to record and lead after him, so...yea.

Also, on the day of al-’Isrā’ wal-Mi‘rāğ, Muslims were given verses, Muhammad made his first trip to (The various different levels of) Jannah (Paradise) and we see yet another image, of Angels and Muhammad.

But if you still continue to say that it COULD be Muhammad or a Islamic Angel, it should not be on a Church window that came off of a church.

​

They aren't in a Buddha temple of worship, they are NOT in a Mosque, they are NOT in a Hindu house of worship. They are in a Church, described, called and told by the game, as a Church.

And if I must, the Halo in Egyptian religion does not appear as it does like it does for Christianity. Its a disc of Light, like how it appears over the god Ra:

And Hathor:

Apis Bull:

So different Halos...

Also, last time I checked Aerith wasn't wearing a Burqa/garment that's required of Muslim women. I also didn't see her dressing in Hindu or Buddhist clothing that is essential for their religion.

(Just to tell you, I research and study other religions especially Islamic religion, Greek Mythology (Which I love!) and recently, Hinduism and Buddhist religion, so I know a bit xD)

Faith may convince you Aerith is a practicer of Christain beliefs, but not everyone has your level of faith or any faith at all. Why is it so important if she is or does belief in Christianity?

Your post implies that one who is Christian or religious, is somehow delusional or incompetent to understand certain things because they have Faith in God. It also implies that a non-religious person is somehow higher than one who is religious.

It also insults me as a Christian. And no, it doesn't matter if she is Christian or not, this is a discussion thread meant to determine whether or not Aerith has Christianity themes in her, or is a Christian.

And going by the evidence provided by Baby Doll and Cali (and whoever else is debating the game has Christianity in it) its very noticeable that it does indeed, have Christianity/Catholicism in the game. I've seen nothing to refute the evidence provided except for saying "the creators haven't said its [Religion/Christianity] in the game"

=====================

Sorry for late post! I had it ready for a while...but the server kept crashing on me >.>

(I had no idea this thread picked up again lol)

 

[CassinoChips]

I don't know why it's being weird with the chopped up quotes. So just roll with it.

http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/f...th-and-her-faith-42990-page27.html#post871774

I'd really like to see someone answer Baby Doll's post. You guys say religion cannot exist in a Final Fantasy title, but her post proves that wrong.

I never said that. I said Christianity doesn't exist in FF7. That's vastly different from saying religion doesn't exist in any FF.

You see

Mother Mary before Firion (< Clickable), you see the churches in 7 and older games, you see Buddha in 7, you can see Jesus in 7(though because it was 1997 and couldn't emulate better graphics, its "invalid") and then in FF9 we see the talk of the Day of the Sabbath. You all say it can't and doesn't exist in the FF titles when that's completely wrong.

What looks like Mary... what looks like Buddha... what looks like Jesus. Again, for the 49 bajillionth time, these things are images influenced by religious iconography. They themselves are not proof of any one character being affiliated with any particular religion.

Wasn't it Nintendo that told FF Creators to remove the Christian/religious imagery from their games? You can't remove what's not there, so that there proves you guys wrong. Religion does in fact, exist in Final Fantasy.

Yes! Imagery! They didn't tell them to change characters from being Christian. They told them to remove the imagery.

If its Mary, Paul, Job or anyone else from Abrahamic religion, its still a reference and image of Christianity/Catholics/Jewish Religion and is meant to be in the game.

Again, not denying that.

Halos over a man with

brown hair, in a garb, on a CHURCH window, by a Church which belongs to a woman who prays and calls on the aid of Angels and calls on The Gospel?

So you expect someone to believe this is all simply coincidence?

No, it's not coincidence. It is imagery intended to evoke general feelings of a religious theme in the player. It's not necessarily intended to imply that Character X is affiliated with Religion Y.

The last time I checked, the Last Prophet in Islam did not have brown hair or have

a bare face. It was Muhammad, therefor this CANNOT be an Islamic reference ESPECIALLY since its on a Church.

It can't be Muhammad, because Islam does not exist in FF7. It can't be Muhammad, because even if Islam existed in FF7, which it doesn't, it would be blasphemous to depict an image of Muhammad on the side of a holy building. So clearly it's not Muhammad.

That's why I never said it was Muhammad.

Also, in Islam, Angels cannot be called down by anyone other than Allah to help or called on at all (see Qur’ānic verse "16:49-50"). The only type of Angel to ignore the commands of Allah and do as he says, is Jinn, which I can assure you right now, does not look like an Angel. I have just recently had this discussion with four Muslims to help me understand it better, so there are differences, believe me

I never said it was an Islamic angel.

Jinn are made of Fire, Angels in Islam is made from Light. Angels cannot reproduce, Jinn can. Angels cannot disobey Allah or act on their own or heckles, answer the prayers of a woman. Jinn can disobey and do as they want. They also have magical powers and whatnot.

I never said it was a jinn.

And let me tell you a little extra something, Satan in Islam is a Jinn, though not all Jinn are evil, they aren't Angels.

I never said it was Satan, a jinn, or an angel.

For more about Disobeying Angels and how once they do, they aren't "angels" anymore, you can buy Ahadith about them or a Qur’ān. :>

Thank you for the advice.

Though in Islam, everyone has a Guardian Angel that tracks their good and bad deeds, this cannot happen (people calling on the physical aid of Angels, only the spiritual

[ex. Asking for spiritual protection]) in the Islamic religion. Only Christianity, Catholicism and Jewish religion (and I believe I mentioned a few religions also, the last time I posted.).

Interesting. However, I never said the angelic figures that appear in Great Gospel, or the image on the side of the holy building in the slums of Midgar, were Islamic Guardian Angels.

Also, might I point out that the Islamic Angel, does not look like the Angel in FF7. For a reference of an Islamic angel and Muhammad (so one cannot say that the

CHURCH window could be him, here is an image of the two)

​

<Please click me> (Image made in 1306)​

​

Please Click me (Image made in 13)​

The Islamic Angel is nowhere near the Angel shown in FF7. Just look at the 10-11 century paintings and the previous paintings, of Muhammad's first Revelation or when Jibril (Gabriel) gave him his revelations. So to say that it COULD be an Islamic Angel is just...well, silly.

I never used the word "angel."​

There is also the Qur’ānic and Ahadith verses describing the Angels of Islam.

Muhammad also describes Angels to have wings so wide, it covers up all of the east and west. So again, not an Islamic Angel, so you can count that out.

I never said it was an angel.​

With the given verses, you can look at the images I have provided that has been painted when Muhammad was about (not in 1300th of course xD) and after, by people who fell from the line of "trustworthy" people Muhammad personally picked to record and lead after him, so...yea.

​

Also, on the day of al-’Isrā’ wal-Mi‘rāğ, Muslims were given verses, Muhammad made his first trip to (The various different levels of) Jannah (Paradise) and we see yet another image, of Angels and Muhammad.​

But if you still continue to say that it COULD be Muhammad or a Islamic Angel, it should not be on a Church window that came off of a church.​

​

I never said it was Muhammad or an Islamic angel.​

They aren't in a Buddha temple of worship, they are

NOT in a Mosque, they are NOT in a Hindu house of worship. They are in a Church, described, called and told by the game, as a Church.

I don't know how that's relevant to anything, except your own confirmation bias. If it's not a Christian church, then any icon could be on it. But if it's specifically a Christian church, then it's an issue. So since you've decided it's a Christian church, then it excludes the possibility of it being any other religious iconography. That's backwards, and logically unsound. You're operating from a conclusion and bending the data to fit your conclusion, instead of operating objectively and bending the conclusion to fit the data.​

Also, last time I checked Aerith wasn't wearing a Burqa/garment that's required of Muslim women. I also didn't see her dressing in Hindu or Buddhist clothing that is essential for their religion.

​

(Just to tell you, I research and study other religions especially Islamic religion, Greek Mythology (Which I love!) and recently, Hinduism and Buddhist religion, so I know a bit xD)
​

Well, since you study all these religions, you should know that not all sects within Islam require women to wear burqas. Or that women in the Middle East often wore burqas before the advent of Islam. Or that the clothing in India that represents what you perceive as Hindu/Buddhist was worn for practical/non-religious reasons well before it was worn for religious reasons. But of course, since none of these religions exist in FF7, no one would be wearing religion-specific clothing anyway.​

​

 

[Terra Branford]

I don't know why it's being weird with the chopped up quotes. So just roll with it.

Alright

I never said that. I said Christianity doesn't exist in FF7. That's vastly different from saying religion doesn't exist in any FF.

I wasn't directing that at you, but at the whole thread

What looks like Mary... what looks like Buddha... what looks like Jesus. Again, for the 49 bajillionth time, these things are images influenced by religious iconography. They themselves are not proof of any one character being affiliated with any particular religion.

It is Mother Mary. It doens't only look like Mary, but...just look at the image. What looks like Buddha? I will give you the Jesus one, but that is definitely Buddha in those images.

Yes, that's true. That's what we need to discuss next. Once we enstablish that Christianity (or religion) is in Final Fantasy 7, we can move onto proving (for our side of course ) that Aerith is Christian/Catholic/Jewish.

Yes! Imagery! They didn't tell them to change characters from being Christian. They told them to remove the imagery.

Remove all Christianity themes, persons and whatnot, from the Nintendo releases. Going by the old, we still have it there. I used "imagery" 'cause I couldn't think of the right word to fit the sentence >.>

Again, not denying that.

Okay...

No, it's not coincidence. It is imagery intended to evoke general feelings of a religious theme in the player. It's not necessarily intended to imply that Character X is affiliated with Religion Y.

That's where we will disagree and I (and the others) shall provide evidence to establish why Aerith is in fact, a Christian/Catholic/Jewish religious person.

It can't be Muhammad, because Islam does not exist in FF7. It can't be Muhammad, because even if Islam existed in FF7, which it doesn't, it would be blasphemous to depict an image of Muhammad on the side of a holy building. So clearly it's not Muhammad.

That's why I never said it was Muhammad.

Exactly, so its not Islam. I never said you said it was Muhammad, you posted this:

And a sampling of some other religions that use halos, or the concept of light surrounding the head of an important individual within their artwork/iconography: Islam, Greek (and therefore Roman) mythology, Egyptian mythology, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

So I wanted to get all other religions, especially Islam and Egyptian religion, out of the way quick and easy before someone could post it later and then I wouldn't be there to explain way its not

I never said it was an Islamic angel.

See above. Its the reason as to why I brought it forth. I'm cutting down all other religions to prove Christianity/Catholicism/Jewish religion is in FF7 and what Aerith might be.

I never said it was a jinn.

See above

I never said it was Satan, a jinn, or an angel.

(again, explaining it all in full so people wouldn't think it could be anything else. Also, I was referencing to the posts about Angels in FF7 and Baby Doll's post to further prove them to be Christian Angels, more evidence.)

Thank you for the advice.

You're welcome (wanted to give sources in case someone asked lol)

Interesting. However, I never said the angelic figures that appear in Great Gospel, or the image on the side of the holy building in the slums of Midgar, were Islamic Guardian Angels.

Again, explaining it all in full. I was also referencing to BD's past post and the earlier discussion of Angels. My post, or so I tried, was to get in all the discussion I missed why I was gone

I never used the word "angel."

See above

I never said it was Muhammad or an Islamic angel.

See above.

I don't know how that's relevant to anything, except your own confirmation bias. If it's not a Christian church, then any icon could be on it. But if it's specifically a Christian church, then it's an issue.

Biased for showing its...a Church? Huh whaaa?

So since you've decided it's a Christian church, then it excludes the possibility of it being any other religious iconography. That's backwards, and logically unsound. You're operating from a conclusion and bending the data to fit your conclusion, instead of operating objectively and bending the conclusion to fit the data.

Yes....isn't that the point of me arguing it?

Because I think its a Christian Church, therefor the reason for it being called a Church, something only associated to Christianity/Catholics.....?

Well, since you study all these religions, you should know that not all sects within Islam require women to wear burqas. Or that women in the Middle East often wore burqas before the advent of Islam. Or that the clothing in India that represents what you perceive as Hindu/Buddhist was worn for practical/non-religious reasons well before it was worn for religious reasons. But of course, since none of these religions exist in FF7, no one would be wearing religion-specific clothing anyway.

Um...each Sect needs the Burqa or their own version of the Burqa. Each sect has it: Sunni and Shīʻah or whatever else you can think of. Sunni iS just a lot more Orthodox than the rest.

They might have been worn before the creation of Islam, but did they get stoned or punished for it? Were they forced to wear it because it stopped men from seeing them as "immodest"? It was simply something they could wear if they wanted...

Its the Muslims as individuals that choose to not have it, not the religion or their holy book.


@Galaxy:
Sorry for the misunderstanding! I hope we're cool.

 

[CassinoChips]

I wasn't directing that at you, but at the whole thread

In that case, I don't think anyone has said religion is totally absent from all FF titles.

Exactly, so its not Islam. I never said you said it was Muhammad, you posted this:

So I wanted to get all other religions, especially Islam and Egyptian religion, out of the way quick and easy before someone could post it later and then I wouldn't be there to explain way its not

You missed the point. Just because it's not Muhammad or an Islamic angel doesn't mean it couldn't be someone else important to the Islamic faith. So just because we've determined it's not Muhammad or an Islamic angel doesn't explicitly rule out it being someone of the Islamic faith.

Except of course the fact that "real world" religions don't exist in FF7.

See above. Its the reason as to why I brought it forth. I'm cutting down all other religions to prove Christianity/Catholicism/Jewish religion is in FF7 and what Aerith might be.

I hope you realize the hypocrisy of easily allowing all other religions to be cut away in a heartbeat while desperately holding on to the Christian ideology.

See above



(again, explaining it all in full so people wouldn't think it could be anything else. Also, I was referencing to the posts about Angels in FF7 and Baby Doll's post to further prove them to be Christian Angels, more evidence.)




You're welcome (wanted to give sources in case someone asked lol)



Again, explaining it all in full. I was also referencing to BD's past post and the earlier discussion of Angels. My post, or so I tried, was to get in all the discussion I missed why I was gone




See above



See above.

Biased for showing its...a Church? Huh whaaa?

No, biased because you're assuming it's specifically a Christian church.

Yes....isn't that the point of me arguing it?

Because I think its a Christian Church, therefor the reason for it being called a Church, something only associated to Christianity/Catholics.....?

Sure. You're just operating under a false premise.

Um...each Sect needs the Burqa or their own version of the Burqa. Each sect has it: Sunni and Shīʻah or whatever else you can think of. Sunni iS just a lot more Orthodox than the rest.

Again, that's factually incorrect. No national government in an Islamic state requires women to wear a burqa. The word "burqa" does not appear in the Qu'ran, and not all Muslim scholars agree on whether wearing the burqa is actually required or not. Women who wear the burqa choose to do so, in most cases.

They might have been worn before the creation of Islam, but did they get stoned or punished for it? Were they forced to wear it because it stopped men from seeing them as "immodest"? It was simply something they could wear if they wanted...

It still is, except in extreme cases.

Its the Muslims as individuals that choose to not have it, not the religion or their holy book.

No, you have it backwards. The Qu'ran never says "burqa," so it's the individual Muslim women who choose to wear them, not their holy book, except in extreme cases.

 

[blakstang98]

Well, there is certainly a religious theme, but it doesn't necessarily mean its Christianity. There isn't a single FF game that uses a real religion, only the fictional ones they make for the game. The best example of a religious theme in an FF game would be FFX, with Yevon. The word "teachings" was used a lot in that game, and it controlled everything that went on in that story. The religious theme that does occur in FFVII is pretty minimal overall. We can overanalyze all the symbolism in the game and say it all points to Christianity, but nothing is certain. And knowing that there has never been a real life religion in any FF game, it makes it even more far-fetched to assume that FFVII had a real religion. Besides, the game was originally made in Japan. I'm not sure what their prominant religion is these days, but I doubt it's Christianity. If the game was made in America, then I could understand the possibility of it being a "look-alike" of Christianity, but that even that arguement loses a lot of weight considering the other factors I mentioned.

Aeris lives with her mother and visits a church because flowers grow there, and nowhere else in Midgar. And when Aeris goes there, it's to tend to the flowers, not to pray or do anything religious. Aeris prays once in the entire game, and ironically it was at the same time as her demise. And on top of that, the prayer wasn't done in a church, it was outdoors in this clamshell looking oasis thing. Sure prayer can be done anywhere, but no evidence states that she ever prayed in the church. Maybe she's anti-religious because she refused to, and the one time she did, she made sure it would be outside the church in a relatively unknown place (aka Forgotten Capital).

And on a personal note, I find it ironic. The one time Aeris does pray, she dies in the middle of it. Hence why I don't buy what religion sells.
/off-topic

 

[tilinelson2]

The curious thing about Japanese games is that they not rarely used Christian symbolism to represent religion, though not saying that the official religion of the fantasy places is Christianism. Many games use churches, priests dressed as Christian priests and even uses crosses, like, for example, in Phantasy Star, a japanese game that never said their official religion was Christianism. If the game was made today, the negative reaction would be huge, but back at those times it was quite acceptable.

I think what they want to imply with this symbolism is that, regardless how the religions in this worlds are, they have some similarities with Christianism. These similarities are not what they believe in, but the religious feel they have. Keep in mind that those "fantasy worlds" have lots of parallels with our real world that would not make sense logically, but are there to make the player understand some things without having to explain them. Instead of an exquisite building, a church. Instead of a strange ritual, praying. Instead of explaining in details how a religious people would act in the fantasy world, make him/her act more or less like a Christian.

That is just my opinion on the subject.

 

[Saints&Storms]

No, Terrible Terry Tate, no, on a Church Stain Glass Window near and which came off off a Church, it is limited to a Chirstian, pimple. Aerith does not wear a Bindi or have Tilaka, she doesn't carry a Juzu, she does not wear a Burka or Hijab, not to mention she does not own/spend her time in a Devalayam, Mosque, Synagogue, Viharas, or a Greek monastery or any other religious house but she owns and resides in a Church the Christian/Catholic House of worship. Its Called a Church, nothing else.

She prays to The Great Gospel, she calls on Angels who dress in Roman garb, she does not pray the Gayatri, she does not pray for what she should become, she does not wash her self before her prayer, and she isn't meditating. The limit isn't called "Allahu Akbar", its not called The Great Gayatri, its not called Meditation, and its not called the Great Twelve Olympians, it is called the Great Gospel, by a woman who lives in a Church.

It is definitely limited to Christian/Catholic image because it came from the Church, it is near the Church, whether or not which Christian Apostle it is or if it is Jesus it pretty, obvious. Mother Mary wears a veil and you don't see a veil there.

---

Galaxy, well yeah if we see Aerith go to a Church, pray to a Great Gospel for which angels descend the sky in aid, crosses rampant, churches, preachers, the Day of The Sabbath and various others than its pretty safe to conclude that there is indeed religion/Christianity in the game, especially when we see Aerith in particular practicing it.

What proof do you have to say they do not exist? Because crossed, Churches, the Day of The Sabbath, angels, praying, The Great Gospel, preachers and numerous other Religious and limited Christian items and themes. I don't think Aeriths "Church" is indeed a Church, because it is called a "Church" by the game programmers and creators. So how can you say Religion doesn't exist when these descriptions and details in fact prove they do?

How is the Day of The Sabbath only interpreted as religious simply because we think so? Its not like we think Aerith's limit is entitle The Great Gospel because it is, and she is praying, we haven't simply assumed this, because this is what they are. Showing images, terms, items, and evidence is not an example it is a sample of evidence.

We haven't just shown symbols, I have indeed posted FACTS, The Great Gospel isn't a symbol its the exact title of a Christian dominant. Its not only mentioning the Gospel but its referring to a "Great" Gospel and then follows into a prayer.

Faith isn't convincing me Aerith is Christian an analysis of evidence and facts are, I am not simply saying Aerith is Christian based solely because I share the belief and would like her to be A Christian, I have gathered points, facts and evidence. Its not important if she is or isn't Christian, but its something I would like to know because I like Aeriths Character and it makes a great deal of sense.

Aerith is an Ancient, however that's not a Religion. It may be all we need to know, but its not all I want to know. I'd like to know more about her.

I don't just believe it, if you guys could post evidence or a reason these Symbols, building, items and Characters aren't Christian or Religious when no one knows them as anything but, then that would be fine as well, but no one has. To be blunt its your opinions and personal views that these things aren't religious or Christian.

As the Italian saying goes; Chi non l'occhio vede, col cuor crede.

---

But like I said in this post, the Creators of Final Fantasy and Nintendo of America recognized the Crosses on the Churches as Christian and Judeo, not just "symbols", in the early 90's Judeo-Chirstian images were not allowed to be shown along with death, they were banned from Video Games. Along with this there is the Day of the Sabbath in Final Fantasy IX, Preachers, Churches, Crosses, Angels, The Gospel, Praying, Heaven, and God in Final Fantasy VII, "Rapture", Churches and Angels in FFVIII, Marriage under God the Father in FFXII, Mother Mary in a Church in Final Fantasy II, Churches and Crosses in nearly all of the old Final Fantasy.

Arguing whether or not an obvious picture and image of Jesus is Jesus, or whether a Cross is a Cross, is pretty irrelevant, because its arguing Plato's Republic, making it nearly impossible for facts or evidence to play any part in the debate.

---

Black, Final Fantasy IX mentions the Day of The Sabbath, while not strictly Christian it is strictly secluded to Abrahamic Religions, along with the Statue of Mother Mary, God in FFXII, preachers, praying and the Gospel. I never said that the games never had their original religions as well, like X, but because that religion exists doesn't mean Christianity doesn't. Actually there are 2.4 million Christians in Japan, they make 2% of the population.

Like I said though, its not just images and symbols, its actual context of the religions and there religious themes, accompanied with images, actions and names as well, so no it not just symbolism, but actual context as well.

Factors not facts, because saying its just "symbolism" isn't facts but a factor. Its a fact that the Day of The Sabbath is mentioned, along with the various other themes, names and actions as well.

No, Aeriths characteristic Limit is a prayer ironically to the Great Gospel. She visits the Church yeah, but not because the flowers grow them, I always was lead t believe she planted them there and sold them, she refers to it as a "Sacred place" as well. She also prays at the Alter in the Forgotten City though. And Christians can pray wherever they need to not just a Church. Where did you ever read her refusing to pray in a Church? I mean, like you and I both said; Christians can pray anywhere.

If she was "Anti Religious" she wouldn't pray at all, nor go to a Church or Pray to the Gospel, and refer to the Church as a Sacred Place, that isn't "Anti-Religious", she must believe in a higher being because she A. Prays, and B. calls on Angels for help.

That's the opposite of "Anti-Religious".

 

[Abstract Debauchery]

I love how full of hypocrisy this thread is. You have half of the people here saying that there isn't Christianity, and say that it could be something else. Then on the other hand, you have the other half saying that it isn't fair to rule it out, but have no problems with ruling out every other religion in favor of Christianity.

My thoughts on the subject are simple, it's symbolism, pure and simple. Every fucking video game in the world now days uses it. Shin Megami Tensei, Zelda, Morrowind, Grandia, Breath of Fire, etc. I could list games to go on for ages. However, all of this is pushed aside (as you can see from many posts ago) because "it isn't FFVII". Yeah, go ahead, make light of logic. You're the ones that are losing, not me.

Personally, I believe that religion exists, but it's not any that we know of. It's much easier to use symbolism from other religions than make up a new one. Just go ask L. Ron Hubbard.

So, they took something here, and they took something there, and now you have fanboys making threads about it. (very bad threads, not saying is started as one, but it quickly degraded into one)

Many people have posted, many posts have gone ignored, etc.

My personal feelings on the subject are is that people are seriously deluding themselves into thinking it's Christianity. Bitch at me all you want, that's the way I'm seeing it, and I call it how I see it. You want there to be Christianity, so you're going to argue in its favor. Psychology wise, it's logical.

 

[Saints&Storms]

No one is being a hypocrite here, but thanks for insulting the lot of us posting here. I have already proven how it is NOT just symbols, but actions, titles, references and the actual company and creators acknowledging that these are indeed Christian-Judeo. I have in fact proven and shown were and how it is more than a symbol here or there but actual mention IN context religious items and existence. I have NOT ruled out other religions but in fact done the exact opposite, I have shown Buddha as well, I haven't ruled it out of existence only Aeriths practice, because like I said she doesn't pray like a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew or Greek pagan. Like I said, and have shown as well, other religions exist as well, Buddha is shown in the game. The Day of the Sabbath is mentioned which is not strictly Christian but Abrahamic.

Whose losing what now? The actual existence of the Day of the Sabbath can't be and is not simply "symbolism", its Abrahamic religions strictly and exclusively. The actual performance of the action of prayer to the Great Gospel is not symbolism. As you said, I don't know why you bring up OTHER games when we are talking about FFVII, those games lack what the FF series has, a lot of evidential support, for instance the FF team and Nintendo of America removing crosses because they were Christian-Judeo.

They have shown their ability to not only invent completely original religions, Final Fantasy X for instances, but nearly everything from languages to races. They have the ability to do this, they don't need to plagiarize actual religions. Like I said before FFIX and FFXII are to key examples here, they have the Day of the Sabbath and Marriage under "God the Holy Father".

You may think its a "bad" thread, I think its a good thread, and if you do think so, and if you don't care for the subject as much as you act as you don't, why post here, man? To insult people? No posts have been ignored, at least not by me, but some of my posts were ignored, for sure.

I don't really care how you see it, its not as if I came to you and asked what you believed but no, you came here and pronounced this and that with less than no evidence. I think you are deluding yourself to refuse obvious religious things and existence. You want it not to exist, so you will argue in favor of its "nonexistence".

If you think its "just a game" why are you posting on a forum dedicated to it? Because It can be perceived just as "fanboy" as you are trying to make this thread and its posters out to be. If you really don't care you shouldn't have posted here as if you "don't care" and insulted people. Actually playing the "shitty" game sounds a fair bit more logical than posting on a forum about the series as well.

I think most of us have shown to not be "uneducated monkeys", but the opposite. Bceause a lot of us have gotten facts and gathered proof to support our conclusion...as well as posting long ass posts to comply.

I showed more than once in this post my proof, not just my "delusion", its arguing Plato's Republic to say they may look the same only, and its not only that but its playing semantics and its a straw-man argument.

Okay, to start off, I want to bring up the Religious items used not only in Final Fantasy VII, but the past Final Fantasies as well, that have irrefutable heavy religious influence and inspirational drawings. To make things more simple and to the point I will start off with Aerith's Church, the most bold and out there hint that religion is there in this game and other Final Fantasies.

So first off, Aerith Gainsborough, she basically lives in a Church, well, she spends most of her free time there, tending to the flowers that have no problem blooming in the "Sacred" place -- Aeriths words not mine -- back to the point though Aerith lives in the Gothic Roman Catholic themed/designed "Church" which is what its entitled, not "Synagogue", not "Mosque", and not "Temple".
Aerith spends her free time in the "Sacred" place, designed identically to a Catholic or Christian Church and/or Cathedral/Chapel and its even called a church....

Here is a comparison to Aeriths Church and a real life Church, practically no difference,​

(Looks the same right? Here's a better look)​

I wanna go to another installment to the series, and its a...pretty well known Final Fantasy, the fourth Final Fantasy; you probably already know why I am bringing this up, but I'll go on anyway, you must be familiar with this games interpretation of the Tower of Babel right? Well the Tower of Babil, this games take on the religious Tower, is no doubt drawn and inspired from the Biblical Tower. It looks the same, has a pretty similar purpose, and damn well sounds the same in name.

But, alas...yes I know they aren't the exact same thing, for this is a video game interpretation, with its own twists and story line, but still doubtlessly the same meaning is meant here, and even more so the same story to be told. They wanted the players to see the resemblance to the actual tower, or else they could have made numerous names to substitute, they've done it before...they could do it then as well. They couldn't outright make it the same Tower, for various reasons; that's bad on story line's part and another I'll get to later.

(What is the meaning of the Tower of Babil in Final Fantasy IV again? Oh, yes, that's right to stretch from the underworld to this worlds Overworld, hm? Sounds familiar...that's right! The Tower of Babel, was meant to stretch up into the Heavens...to God. Because its all about religion. So then what could a replica of this tower in a story be? Religiously tied?)

The past Final Fantasies have always had religious intent, inspiration or drawings it is very clear. Through all of them we find Churches, crosses, worship, prayer, temples of any kind, and faith of many kinds have been seen, some times specific, sometimes drawn from Abrahamic Religions, or the Buddhist faith the point to be made is that religion is there, the real ones and a few made up ones. For instance here are a few of the old Final Fantasy Churches, the crosses that the old churches features were removed by Nintendo of America for policy reasons, that stated Judeo-Christian imagery as well as death weren't allowed to be depicted (in 1990). If they weren't references to these religions, they wouldn't have had to be removed. Why remove something that isn't Religious?

A Church, Sanctuary, and so on, what they were originally known as. These locations all looks the same, no matter which game you played, or which game we talked about, or which game contains them.

The Churches of Legacy Installment; Final Fantasy's
​

Now, onto what I said earlier, about various religious items, themes, symbols and characters. Remember when I said "Buddhist"? Yeah that is going to come into play now, many people think the Da Chao is a representation of Buddha, I don't get where that comes from since, Buddha is actually seen in the game. Da Chao are the Shinobi ancestors of Wutai, not Buddha. Da Chao doesn't look like Buddha and isn't worshiped like Buddha, Wutai is a Chinese Village; Praying to ancestors was common to China's people, its called ancestor veneration, its a social/ non religious function.
Buddha still exists, Da Chao does not replace him, they aren't Gods, and the aren't the games interpretation and personal spin on the religious figure. The first is Da Chao...the second... is a little Buddha statue.

(The sketch on the right is a sketch of the landscape of Wutai, the Cat filled room, ~ FFVII ultimania)​

Now, I want to move on from 'Items' and 'Locations' of Final Fantasy that show Religion is there and does exist in some way or another, because it does. Whether or not the Final Fantasy team altered it or played with it in their imaginations is beyond the point, because my point is it is there, and there are faithful images/characters here, that go beyond simply looking the same, if a pig acts like a pig...dresses like a pig...smells like a pig...sounds like a pig...then it is indeed a pig.
How about themes? Actions? Names and Biblical/religious creatures? And I am not just hinting at Ifrit, Bahamut, Shiva and the like because they share name only, though Ifrit does come close to the Islamic creature, both in looks and theme, it arguable if it is indeed the exact creature of the religion. What about angels? If angels were in the Video game, could that convince some or most that religion is there? Ancients aren't like angels, they are not angels in and of themselves and they so not preform tasks like angels, their jobs are not like that of angels...they themselves are not angels. Ancients are the Video games original idea.

​

Now, however, we do see actual angels in the game, and I am not talking about those little guys that healed you when you used Arise or Life, I am talking about the angels that come when someone prays. Like when Aerith Prays in Final Fantasy VII, while using her Limit Break...Great Gospel.
The woman gets up, clasps her hands together and prays, light descends from the clouds and angels come to her and her companions in aid after she finishes praying. They have wings, they wear toga's and they come packin'...spirit, that is.
Okay, okay, I know, a limit break called Great Gospel and a praying while angels aid you aren't quite enough for some people, so I am going to have to try a little harder to convince some people...Although honestly, this is really what would convince anyone, it convinced me but I guess we all see differently.

What about Aerith praying isn't religious though? I mean, the woman lives in a Church, she called it a sacred place, she has a limit called the Great Gospel, past Final Fantasies have had numerous Religious items, themes, and building in them, Crosses even god removed as "Judeo-Christian" imagery because at the time Nintendo of America said religious imagery wasn't allowed!
But yeah, lets argue the number three some more, so we can head on.
As well as Angels, Churches, Praying, Gospel and faith being present in not only Final Fantasy VII but the previous Final Fantasies as well there is also a Cross in the Final Fantasy VII series, a crucifix if you will. On Vincent Valentines Coffin. A lot of you could say and might say that means nothing...but it does.

Coffins are instruments of departure AFTER death, they are used in Burials when we say goodbye to loved ones when they die, a cross on a coffin has one meaning and that is afterlife, afterlife is the meaning of religion...life after death through faith and God. Does it just so happen to be a Cross? No! that would be ridiculous. Why put it there at all, if not for religious puposes? Especially when it wasn't originally on his coffin in the first place. If it was just a symbol there, why choose to use a Cross? And why on a Coffin? The answer is simple...for religious purposes...

There is Heaven in context as well.(above)
​

(Screencap from FFIX)
​

What about the Day of The Sabbath? I know, some might say; that doesn't exist in the Final Fantasy world's its not in text, on the contrary, it does AND IT IS. In Final Fantasy IX when you play as Steiner in the Village Dali if you read the Pamphlet for shipping time that hangs on the wall you will read that shipping does not go on "On the Day Of The Sabbath". [Sabbath or a sabbath is generally a weekly day of rest and/or time of worship observed in Abrahamic religions and other practices] Its also used in Pagan religions but usually called the Sabbat not the "Day of the Sabbath". Not to be confused with the Buddhist day of rest "Uposatha" or the pagan "Sabbat", but there is also the Jewish Shabbat, which is the same thing.


The Day of the Sabbath is recognized as a Day of Rest in Judaism and Christianity, its recognized as a day of rest, and the Seventh day of Creation. Its the Day God rested after completing the Creation in 6 Days.

 

[CassinoChips]

No, Terrible Terry Tate, no, on a Church Stain Glass Window near and which came off off a Church, it is limited to a Chirstian, pimple. Aerith does not wear a Bindi or have Tilaka, she doesn't carry a Juzu, she does not wear a Burka or Hijab, not to mention she does not own/spend her time in a Devalayam, Mosque, Synagogue, Viharas, or a Greek monastery or any other religious house but she owns and resides in a Church the Christian/Catholic House of worship. Its Called a Church, nothing else.

Again, none of these examples of other religions are really relevant, because even if she were wearing a burqa, she wouldn't necessarily be a Muslim. Even if she were in a building with minarets, it wouldn't necessarily make it a mosque. Why? Because Islam doesn't exist in FF7. For the same reason, just because she prays, visits a building with stained glass, etc. doesn't automatically make her a Christian. Because Christianity does not exist in FF7.

She prays to The Great Gospel, she calls on Angels who dress in Roman garb, she does not pray the Gayatri, she does not pray for what she should become, she does not wash her self before her prayer, and she isn't meditating. The limit isn't called "Allahu Akbar", its not called The Great Gayatri, its not called Meditation, and its not called the Great Twelve Olympians, it is called the Great Gospel, by a woman who lives in a Church.

She prays to The Great Gospel? Really? I thought she prayed to the Christian god? Well, in that case, she can't be Christian, because if she's praying to the name of her limit break, she's essentially praying to herself, and thus sees herself as a god. And as we all know, one of the Commandments clearly states 'Thou shalt not place any god before me. Behind me is OK though. I just get kinda carsick on long rides, and it's not as bad if I'm in the front seat.'

I paraphrased a bit.

Point being, if she views herself as a god, she's clearly not Christian.

Also, I'm impressed that you can read Aeris' mind to know what exactly she's doing, and exactly to whom she's doing it. Especially considering she doesn't have a mind, because she's a collection of digital data.

It is definitely limited to Christian/Catholic image because it came from the Church, it is near the Church, whether or not which Christian Apostle it is or if it is Jesus it pretty, obvious. Mother Mary wears a veil and you don't see a veil there.

Your logic is circular. You argue that Aeris is Christian because the church is Christian. The church is Christian because the images/stained glass on the building only be Christian. Therefore, since the building can only be Christian, Aeris must be a Christian. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Proof, please? I have given actual proof of existence of the religions, you however have been unable to denounce these thing rather than arguing Plato's Republic and giving straw-man arguments. She's praying to a limit called the Great Gospel, its an instrument of faith especially since angels descend from the sky to help her. You have continuously lacked to provide evidence to denounce anything I have posted Terry.

Wow, thank you for taking something I posted and purposely twisting it, man. That's a nice way of debating you got there, no she doesn't worship the Great Gospel, she is praying to her Limit Break entitled the Great Gospel, I just said "she prays to the Gospel" because I didn't feel like saying "she is praying to her Limit Break entitled the Great Gospel to which angels aid her in" every time. The Great Gospel however, is under the Christian God and Christian beliefs only. Especially since it is capitalized on as "Great".

She performs the action of prayer, by her limit break "The Great Gospel".

Nice dude, nice. I never said she sees herself as a God, your attempt at twisting my words is not only a derail but a straw-man as well. I don't think she's praying man she is, angels come, and her limit to which she prays is titled "THE GREAT GOSPEL" and she recieves aid from angels, who do angels live under command of? And what religion is "Gospel" tied to? I mean she is obviously acting out in "Faith" but which? Hrm, which faith calls for aid by angels and believes in the Gospel as the word of "Faith", I just can seem to remember...?

Holy shit? I think I know why you don't understand now, Aerith isn't Christian because; "The church is Christian. The church is Christian because the images/stained glass on the building only be Christian." She's Christian because she is shown praying to the ironically and coincidentally religiously titled limit break to which angels help her in healing, and she owns a Church, calls it a sacred place, and oh yeah, prays.

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

... Or maybe, just maybe it's simply a way to make Aerith radiate 'purity' and nothing more?

From my experience of games it's a common mechanic to employ, some even following Christianity-like religions, but it doesn't make them Christians

Also, on the subject of religious items (burkha etc) do you see Aerith wearing a Cross around her neck? Or any Christian items of faith? While it's no requirement of Christianity to wear one don't you think SS would have put it in when they made FF7? Even in AC, ACC, CC etc she doesn't wear a Cross. She's just a Church girl who visits there because the lifestream is strong in that one area. If there was no lifestream Aerith wouldn't give a crap i'm sure, especially since her garden has the same effect thanks to her Ancient powaz.

And outside of GG and Holy summoning, when does she EVER pray? If she was that religious don't you think she'd pray to god a little more? If only so SS can make that clear to the player she's religious?

All she does is speak to the Planet without the need of Prayer, if there's any divine entity she communicates with, it's The Planet, not [insert religion here]'s God.

Quite honestly I just see all this imagery as a way to fit the setting, they want to make Aerith appear pure so lump her in a religiously focused area, fill her with flowers etc, they want to make Wutai seem more Eastern, shove the Buddha in. Again, a common game mechanic.

/dodges knife throwers

 

[CassinoChips]

Proof, please? I have given actual proof of existence of the religions, you however have been unable to denounce these thing rather than arguing Plato's Republic and giving straw-man arguments. She's praying to a limit called the Great Gospel, its an instrument of faith especially since angels descend from the sky to help her. You have continuously lacked to provide evidence to denounce anything I have posted Terry.

When debating any issue, the holder of the burden of proof is the one making the claim. I am not the one claiming Aeris is a Christian. Therefore, I am not here to provide anything. You claim to understand what a straw man argument is, and what Plato's Republic is (though you never used that term until Fusionist brought it into the discussion), yet you ignore a basic tenet of debate.

Wow, thank you for taking something I posted and purposely twisting it, man.

You're welcome. It makes as much sense as anything else in this mad house of a thread.

That's a nice way of debating you got there, no she doesn't worship the Great Gospel, she is praying to her Limit Break entitled the Great Gospel, I just said "she prays to the Gospel" because I didn't feel like saying "she is praying to her Limit Break entitled the Great Gospel to which angels aid her in" every time. The Great Gospel however, is under the Christian God and Christian beliefs only. Especially since it is capitalized on as "Great".

Didn't you just say the same thing, but slightly change the wording? 'She is praying to her Limit Break.' So how is that not praying to herself? She's praying to her own ability. That's like me praying to my ability to run up and down a basketball court. She's praying to herself.

Nice dude, nice. I never said she sees herself as a God, your attempt at twisting my words is not only a derail but a straw-man as well.

No it isn't. If she prays to her own ability, she's praying to herself. If she's praying to herself, she sees herself as able to intervene on her own behalf. If she sees herself as able to intervene on her own behalf she either A) doesn't need the aid of the Christian god, or B) sees herself as a deity. In either case, she's not following the Christian tenet of praying to the Christian god for guidance, so, logically, she's not Christian.

Deconstructing your argument is not a straw man.

I don't think she's praying man she is, angels come, and her limit to which she prays is titled "THE GREAT GOSPEL" and she recieves aid from angels, who do angels live under command of? And what religion is "Gospel" tied to? I mean she is obviously acting out in "Faith" but which? Hrm, which faith calls for aid by angels and believes in the Gospel as the word of "Faith", I just can seem to remember...?

The paganistic religion of the Cetra, which worships the Planet.

She's Christian because she is shown praying

Other religions pray.

to the ironically and coincidentally religiously titled limit break

The word 'Gospel' is not the exclusive domain of Christianity.

to which angels

Other religions have angels, or winged humanoid deities and/or demigods.

help her in healing,

Other religions ask for divine intervention for the purposes of healing.

and she owns a Church,

The word 'church' is not the exclusive domain of Christianity.

calls it a sacred place,

Other religions have sacred places.

and oh yeah, prays.

Other religions pray.

 

[Ethics]

You guys take FF waaay to seriously.

I can assure you whatever religious ties any person in any FF is purely out of relation to the creators and the audience. They want someone to seem 'pure' and 'spiritual' so they backhand her profile with either some of the most commonly recognized faiths or the creators own base faiths.

I doubt anyone would think her to be pure if something looking like this showed up to aid her.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Oh man, Terry, are you trying to tell me whether or not I know what Plato's Republic is? I never even saw anyone else say anything about Plato's Republic, My Mother taught me dude, I don't get what your deal is, more than one person can know what Plato's Republic is. Because telling me what I know or not sounds a strange bit like madness to me.

Your claim against my claim, you just said in that last post "Religion doesn't exist in FFVII" But backed it with absolutely less than nothing. That was your claim, did I make this thread? No, then I haven't made one such "claim" I have simply posted evidence, to combat the arguments others have made to attempt to denounce religions exists as well as Christianity existing as well, which I have indeed backed. Unlike you backing your statement of "Religion doesn't exist in FFVII" That my friend, is indeed a claim. Yours to be precise.

I'm ignoring nothing Terry, first you stance was there were no Christian or religious existence such as Jesus/Crosses/Faith, then it was religion doesn't exist at all, and then it was religion exists just not ours, and now its all this mumbo jumbo about arguing the number three.

I'm glad you admit you purposely twisted my words, no one is forcing you to post here Terry, but I get the feeling you are somehow threatened by me doing so, I thought you said awhile back you were leaving? Or did you only say that as you saw fit to quit the debate and nit pick?

You haven't even answered my post either, about God/Marriage indeed existing in FFXII, The Day of the Sabbath in FFIX and the Final Fantasy Crew and Nintendo of America recognizing the Crosses as Christian, hence removing it based on their code at the time.

Nothing you've said thus far, has even breached evidence or fact and it certainly hasn't begun to even try to prove me wrong. I don't even think your trying anymore but merely trying to hinder the discussion.

"She performs the action of prayer, for angelic and divine healing, by way of her limit break "The Great Gospel"."

You must have missed this or blatantly ignored it on account of lack of evidence. I mean seriously, which straw will you grasp for next time? I suggest the red one. But I digress, because you've yet to drop the semantics and face the music. I have already corrected bad wording on my part, a whole post ago, but you ignored it, as you did last time, I presume you'll be leaving now? Like last time?

How do they worship the Planet? Proof? Evidence? Facts would be nice as well. But honestly they are never shown worshiping the planet,protecting it yeah, worshiping it? No. Another baseless assumption on your part.

She isn't praying like other religions do, I already stated this, no other religion prays for healing and aid by angels, only Christians do, not to mention the title of the Limit, man, pay attention. Gospel, Angels, Praying for healing, I dunno it kinda sells itself. You basically are selling yourself down the river man.

"She acts out in prayer by using her limit: The Great Gospel, she calls on Angels who dress in Roman garb, she does not pray the Gayatri, she does not pray for what she should become, she does not wash her self before her prayer, and she isn't meditating. The limit isn't called "Allahu Akbar", its not called The Great Gayatri, its not called Meditation, and its not called the Great Twelve Olympians, it is called the Great Gospel, by a woman who lives in a Church."

Didn't read this either did you? Thanks for the straw-man arguments man, you beat yourself here. If you don't want to debate it, you don't have to, you don't have to keep repeating the same straw-man arguments over and over.

---

Your right its not required to wear a cross, and crosses really are a more gothic feel rather than the happy and pure image they wanted to give Aerith, Vincent has crosses on his clothing, have we gotten past that the religion does exist, now its whether or not Aerith practices it, right?

Because she is shown praying aside from her limit, and the alter at the Forgotten City.

She actually is shown praying in the Church in Crisis Core as well, I mean after she catches wind of Zack's soon to be fatal encounter with an enemy and his now near death or dying state, she stands in the flower bed, bows her head and prays, in the Church. Its in the FMV at the ending. Also there is her Crisis Core render, her hands are clasped in a prayer mannerism.

And I can't really just debate why they made her religious, BESIDES the debate is whats her faith/does religion exist? but religious symbols cant be tied to purity without the actual existence of the religion, they'd have no meaning without the religions existence. But I think they may have made her religious to convey her purity as well.

 

[CassinoChips]

Oh man, Terry, are you trying to tell me whether or not I know what Plato's Republic is? I never even saw anyone else say anything about Plato's Republic, My Mother taught me dude, I don't get what your deal is, more than one person can know what Plato's Republic is. Because telling me what I know or not sounds a strange bit like madness to me.

We all float down here.

Your claim against my claim, you just said in that last post "Religion doesn't exist in FFVII" But backed it with absolutely less than nothing. That was your claim, did I make this thread? No, then I haven't made one such "claim" I have simply posted evidence, to combat the arguments others have made to attempt to denounce religions exists as well as Christianity existing as well, which I have indeed backed. Unlike you backing your statement of "Religion doesn't exist in FFVII" That my friend, is indeed a claim. Yours to be precise.

No. It's not. Because it's impossible to prove non-existence, except in refuting the claim of existence. Therefore, the claim in question is your claim (which, although the OP isn't yours, you have allied yourself with the claim, and thus made it yours) that Aeris is Christian, and thus Christianity exists. I am refuting that claim. Not making a counter-claim. Go to your local university, find the professor that teaches logic, and ask him/her about it. You'll find I'm right.

I'm ignoring nothing Terry, first you stance was there were no Christian or religious existence such as Jesus/Crosses/Faith, then it was religion doesn't exist at all, and then it was religion exists just not ours, and now its all this mumbo jumbo about arguing the number three.

I'm going to copy a sentence I wrote in my very first entry into this thread. You'll see that my argument has remained virtually unchanged at the core: That the imagery in many instances of FF7 is influenced by Christianity, but that Christianity itself does not exist in the game.

"I think FF7, and particularly Aeris, has a spiritual connotation, but not necessarily a dogmatically religious one."

And second entry:

"There is apparent Christian imagery in the game, certainly. But I failed to see any reference to the one thing that makes a person a Christian:"

Third entry:

"And finally, until you show me evidence of Aeris worshipping Jesus, she's not Christian. She simply appears in a game that borrows from Christian imagery."

Remarkably similar. Almost as if I've been saying the same thing over and over again.

I'm glad you admit you purposely twisted my words, no one is forcing you to post here Terry, but I get the feeling you are somehow threatened by me doing so, I thought you said awhile back you were leaving? Or did you only say that as you saw fit to quit the debate and nit pick?

Lighten up, Francis. I've answered the majority of posts that have been directed at me, so I'm not 'nit picking' anything. And it takes about a month and a half for me to re-gather my strength to be able to even open this thread. So I'll post when and where I please, and leave whenever I feel so inclined. And I will grant you the same courtesy.

You haven't even answered my post either, about God/Marriage indeed existing in FFXII, The Day of the Sabbath in FFIX

Firstly, the extra emphasis isn't necessary.

Secondly, what does that have to do with Aeris?

The god in FF12 is not the Christian God. The religion in FFXII actually has a name: Kiltia. So that's certainly not Christianity.

Marriage is not solely a Christian institution.

The reference to the Sabbath, like the imagery in FF7, is just a reference.

and the Final Fantasy Crew and Nintendo of America recognizing the Crosses as Christian, hence removing it based on their code at the time.

They asked them to remove Christian imagery. I have never denied that Christian imagery is readily apparent in the FF series. So I don't see the point of arguing something we apparently agree on.

Nothing you've said thus far, has even breached evidence or fact and it certainly hasn't begun to even try to prove me wrong. I don't even think your trying anymore but merely trying to hinder the discussion.

Whether you accept it or not, I have brought logic and fact into the discussion. Not that you or Cali or Terra haven't at times, but there is a lot of assumption and opinion on your end. And, to be fair, some on mine.

"She performs the action of prayer, for angelic and divine healing, by way of her limit break "The Great Gospel"."

You must have missed this or blatantly ignored it on account of lack of evidence. I mean seriously, which straw will you grasp for next time? I suggest the red one. But I digress, because you've yet to drop the semantics and face the music. I have already corrected bad wording on my part, a whole post ago, but you ignored it, as you did last time, I presume you'll be leaving now? Like last time?

Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy.

How do they worship the Planet? Proof? Evidence? Facts would be nice as well. But honestly they are never shown worshiping the planet,protecting it yeah, worshiping it? No. Another baseless assumption on your part.

They are never shown worshipping the Planet because only one Ancient is ever shown: Ifalna. But frankly, I never knew that was in question. They revere the Planet and the Lifestream. I suppose worship is a poor word choice on my part.

She isn't praying like other religions do, I already stated this, no other religion prays for healing and aid by angels, only Christians do, not to mention the title of the Limit, man, pay attention. Gospel, Angels, Praying for healing, I dunno it kinda sells itself. You basically are selling yourself down the river man.

And again, it's nice, but it's not convincing. It's meant to evoke connotations of religion, but it doesn't specifically mean that she's Christian.

"She acts out in prayer by using her limit: The Great Gospel, she calls on Angels who dress in Roman garb, she does not pray the Gayatri, she does not pray for what she should become, she does not wash her self before her prayer, and she isn't meditating. The limit isn't called "Allahu Akbar", its not called The Great Gayatri, its not called Meditation, and its not called the Great Twelve Olympians, it is called the Great Gospel, by a woman who lives in a Church."

Didn't read this either die you?

I did read it. Again, there's no argument in it. She does pray. The Limit is called "Great Gospel." She doesn't live in a church, but she does visit it often. Why would I argue something when there's no argument to be made?

Thanks for the straw-man arguments man, you beat yourself here. If you don't want to debate it, you don't have to, you don't have to keep repeating the same straw-man arguments over and over.

And you don't have to keep repeating the same fallacious "evidence" based on assumption and opinion, established on a false premise, and operating illogically backwards from an already formed conclusion.

Deconstructing your argument is not a straw man.