Aerith and her Faith

[GalaxyFlare]

Jim ! dont put that up within the first few lines there is reference to a God called Kali, thats all we need


I don't think Aerith is Christian. As a Catholic myself, I think it's sort of silly to say she's

that or any religion to be honest. In a game like this, religion probably really doesn't exist. She's an individual praying to the planet as the last Ancient. There are the objects of religion in there, but it doesn't put out that she's any part of any religion that we know of. Do remember that the reason Aerith goes to the church is because she likes the flowers, not because she's religious.

THIS SHOULD BE ON A T-SHIRT!!

This is basically the argument against the view that Aeris/Aerith is of a religion, and now we have people saying the validity of such an argument is pointless because we expressing opinions about a subject not related to the game but rather based on own interpretations(Kira this is you baby).

This topic is not Really like the LTD because it is based personal belief about a preconceived notion that does not actually exist in the game, all we have are a bunch of
posters for or against..........what?, thats a fair question.

Whether Aeris/Aerith is off a particular religion? S-E would literally laugh there asses of at bunch of losers.Can a Company collectively Facepalm?

No one can tell any individual person how to interpret Symbols, information, dogma or scripture but to say something IS..........when there is clearly no place for it with in the context of the game is just whats the point of it.

Accept what you believe and be happy that you have found some thing that resonates with your spiritual beliefs but dont, I dont wan to say FORCE, do not place your ideals in a position where they are open to scrutiny if you can take the rebuttal that people who belief differently will put to you.

Otherwise threads like these appear and we get no where.

Believe.

Accept.

Express.

Move On.

Is the key people.

 

[The Witch]

I, for one, am ashamed at how badly people cannot discuss the simplist of things without either a.) flying off the handle, b.) calling people/arguments retarded, or c.) without mocking them.

If this discussion bothers you, don't post. It doesn't bother anyone for this discussion to exist or happen. It is not harming anyone to discuss this Character and what she's possibly linked to. There is absolutely no need to start giving attitude, mock, insults, or anything else negative.

People are saying crosses, churches, gospel, prayers for roman-Catholic angels to come give aide--isn't enough to prove A religion exists in this AU. If those aren't enough to prove it exists, WHAT IS?

What would be the final thing to prove to everyone that religion does exist in the game? Obviously religious items/places/words/figures/actions aren't enough to prove it(at least for you all)so, what, in your opinions, would prove it to you all?

I read a page back, that not even a picture of Jesus is good enough. So, what do you all consider to be inarguable evidence/facts to help prove religion exists?

In a game like this, religion probably really doesn't exist.

First of all, thanks for not putting mocking comments or attitude in your post. Very refreshing. And, that's what we're trying to prove.

Correct. But do you actually hear how she prays? She just sits or kneels down to pray. We only know she prays to the planet. There's no god she's praying to. Just the planet. So all these suggestions that she may be religious don't seem good enough to me. A simple girl praying to the planet just only seems right because she's an Ancient.

She isn't praying to the planet, though. All we know is that she kneels to herself during her limit titled "GREAT GOSPEL"(key word being Gospel)and prays for Roman-Catholic angels to come give her aide. The important thing here is that DURING her activation of Great Gospel she prays for those angel's help. Again, isn't it a bit of an odd coincidence that the limit she kneels and prays for catholic angels to come help her during is titled with an odd word like GOSPEL?

It is not a coincidence that the certain limit that involves Aerith praying for Catholic Angels to help her is titled "Great Gospel"--it could only be referencing to one thing.

If it were titled "Great Gospel" and Aerith just prayed(and no angels came) then our argument would have a lesser chance of standing. BUT! Since we not only have her praying for Catholic angels to come and help her but that it also takes place DURING her activation of a limit titled Gospel, there can be no other symbolism trying to be conveyed other than Christianity.

If they wanted to just use all of this to symbolize her "spirituality" with the planet, or even her innocence, then they could have just showed her praying without catholic angels being what she was seeking help from. THAT would have conveyed her link to the planet. But instead, they decided to make Aerith pray during her limit titled "Gospel" so that Catholic Angels could give her help.

Too many coincidences, far far too many.

References which we will understand and enjoy, but this does not mean that Texas or Hawaii exist on the FFVII planet. If they did, where are they hiding? Unless The King fled to the FFVII planet too, introducing them to a drink and talking about Texas.

How about the same place where Costa Del Sol is hiding? Mind you, Costa Del Sol is also a real place on OUR planet. It's a good argument. But are you going to honestly try and tell me that just because we never heard of a place or city during our playthrough of FFVII that means it doesn't exist?

In that case, that means VII's world would only have about a small handful of towns/cities for an entire planet. As we know with later installments like Crisis Core we were shown that there were indeed more than what we were shown in VII. If there were cities and towns we never got the chance to explore during VII, then who's to say places like Hawaii and Texas don't exist? After all, Costa Del Sol exists in our world and theirs.

The words Texas and Hawaii have no meanings behind them. They only represent Hawaii and Texas. So if VII speaks of a Hawaii or Texas what could they be referring to? Ah, yes, the places Hawaii and Texas.

 

[Six]

Don't misunderstand what I said, Tori. I was simply posting just because people seem to be, like Cali said, flying off the handle about things. I'm aware it's a debate, but in this thread there's just no respecting anything period. That's how it's coming over to me anyway.

And as for Cali, if that was referring to me calling this retarded, I am not pointing out specific people, or calling names, I just think it's silly to get so worked up over something if you enjoy playing the game thinking otherwise.

With that, I'm out of this thread, because I had my two cents put in, and aside from that I don't care who tears who apart. It's just a shame people can't just enjoy it for what it is, without it having to be something specific with a reason behind it.

And as for what Tori said, no. If you're a homeless person, and there's an abandoned church you start living in, you aren't automatically religious. All I'm saying is there could be other reasons, but don't get me wrong.

Whether or not Aerith is, it's not gonna change shit for me, or the game. =/ That's all.

Ps. Just 'cause I don't have a specific view on this, doesn't mean I don't have my opinion, but I rather not it's gonna be taken like I'm some sort of bitch, 'cause I'm not. Howeeeeeeever. Yes, I'ma leave this thread be now.

 

[coffeecup]

:/ Why do people interject to say this discussion is pointless? That's just a relative term. I'm getting my kicks from this thread by trying to poke holes in their argument, and I'm sure it'll only help their stance if their theory can stand against this massive onslaught they're getting.

They can coexist, the mere existence of a Cross and all the other religious items proves this.

I don't think you understood my question. Forget about all the crosses, Gospel, and all that other stuff for a moment. Just pretend for a sec that Aeris is Christian. But she is also a Cetra. You don't see the problem?

It's like a Creationist believing in Darwinian evolution. It just doesn't work. The Cetra's conception of life/death/afterlife/lifestream rubs against some of the major beliefs of Christianity. You can't have a person believing in both at the same time (unless Aeris is too stupid or indifferent to care, which I'm sure we can both agree is probably wrong).

You can't rectify this paradox by saying "well all the evidence says Aeris is Christian." That's like saying "well all the evidence for evolution is why evolution exists." That doesn't anwer the Creationist/Evolution paradox. That line of reasoning is really a "staw man" attack since you're not answering the question I'm asking at the moment.

The only real way you can rebut this point is by either saying
(a) she is exclusively Christian or Cetra, or
(b) it's not a conflict to be a Cetra and a Christian concurrently.

I'm guessing you're going with option (b), so I'm just wondering what your reasoning is for this NOT being a conflict in belief. Because if you can't answer this question, then the conclusion follows that she's not Christian (since it's established that she is Cetra 100%).

 

[The Witch]

I'm guessing you're going with option (b), so I'm just wondering what your reasoning is for this NOT being a conflict in belief. Because if you can't answer this question, then the conclusion follows that she's not Christian (since it's established that she is Cetra 100%).

I can't really answer for her and I'm not sure what she's trying to say. But I read this(jus' cuz I like reading everyone's posts)and had to say, just because of a person is born into something, that doesn't mean they can't choose how they worship. For example, there are jewish people from Israel that choose to follow Christianity.

In short, all I'm trying to say is that, just because Aerith is a Cetra, that doesn't mean she can't follow a religion.

*din din time, peace*

 

[coffeecup]

Unless I'm missing something, the Cetra is defined by more than just a "race" (if you can call it that). It consists of a belief system as well (e.g., all life comes from the lifestream and after death we all integrate back into it. This includes trees, animals, all people (good and evil)). There is a clear conflict in the Cetra belief system and the Christian belief system. And I'm pretty sure Aeris does follow those Cetra beliefs.

 

[The Witch]

Well, I suppose that could be a good argument. But in Aerith's defense, she denied all Cetra abilities/history/ and the fact that she was even one in the first place. So she obviously didn't want to believe in the way Cetra did. Remember, Aerith only started to accept that she was a Cetra After she left Midgar with Cloud. That could explain why she practiced, what appears to be, Christianity despite her Cetra calling.

 

[coffeecup]

:/ No clue if you're right, I just always thought she knew and accepted that she was Cetra but kept it hidden as a precautionary measure for her adoptive mother (or was it for herself after she escaped Shinra...or was it because she wanted to escape her heritage...I don't remember T.T). I'd get a C in FFVII history if I had to take a test at the moment, so I'll just assume you've got your history right.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

People are saying crosses, churches, gospel, prayers for roman-Catholic angels to come give aide--isn't enough to prove A religion exists in this AU. If those aren't enough to prove it exists, WHAT IS?

What would be the final thing to prove to everyone that religion does exist in the game? Obviously religious items/places/words/figures/actions aren't enough to prove it(at least for you all)so, what, in your opinions, would prove it to you all?

She isn't praying to the planet, though. All we know is that she kneels to herself during her limit titled "GREAT GOSPEL"(key word being Gospel)and prays for Roman-Catholic angels to come give her aide. The important thing here is that DURING her activation of Great Gospel she prays for those angel's help. Again, isn't it a bit of an odd coincidence that the limit she kneels and prays for catholic angels to come help her during is titled with an odd word like GOSPEL?

It is not a coincidence that the certain limit that involves Aerith praying for Catholic Angels to help her is titled "Great Gospel"--it could only be referencing to one thing.

If it were titled "Great Gospel" and Aerith just prayed(and no angels came) then our argument would have a lesser chance of standing. BUT! Since we not only have her praying for Catholic angels to come and help her but that it also takes place DURING her activation of a limit titled Gospel, there can be no other symbolism trying to be conveyed other than Christianity.

If they wanted to just use all of this to symbolize her "spirituality" with the planet, or even her innocence, then they could have just showed her praying without catholic angels being what she was seeking help from. THAT would have conveyed her link to the planet. But instead, they decided to make Aerith pray during her limit titled "Gospel" so that Catholic Angels could give her help.

Too many coincidences, far far too many.

The words Texas and Hawaii have no meanings behind them. They only represent Hawaii and Texas. So if VII speaks of a Hawaii or Texas what could they be referring to? Ah, yes, the places Hawaii and Texas.

to prove that aeris was a christian you'd have to have all the facts which you dont because she isnt real nor is the world in which she existed. the "evidence" you have could well represent christianity, but it could just as well not. im not denying that she had some sort of faith - ive posted a link to some stuff about romani gypsies which in itself doesnt prove anything, but im not going to try and argue that she was modeled on one. just going from my understanding of the cetra as theyre described in the game it sounds like a possibility.

gospel to you obviously references something religious, whereas for me it just means "truth" - and thats a valid definition too. the angels could very well just represent healing, dont forget that they need the summons to be nice and dramatic. on the topic of summons, she also stands to pray (for instance) to summon choco/mog. if her angels in great gospel represent something then praying for choco/mog must also represent something.

she mentions that she hears the cries of the planet as do people in cosmo canyon (i think?) so either that makes them all nutjobs or they share some sort of spiritual belief. perhaps the faith of the cetra (similar to the romai gypsy stuff i posted)?

In short, all I'm trying to say is that, just because Aerith is a Cetra, that doesn't mean she can't follow a religion.

the way the cetra are described it would seem they have a faith of their own and there wasnt a huge emphasis put on her denial of being cetra. i think she only denied it to people from shinra to get them off her back.

also you and tori are both over emphasising things with bold, caps and different colours. its very distracting when theres a wall of text and you get that. instead of trying to force your view just type normally, the way you present your post is like youre trying to brainwash everyone into your way of thinking instead of just debating.

 

[The Witch]

:/ No clue if you're right, I just always thought she knew and accepted that she was Cetra but kept it hidden as a precautionary measure for her adoptive mother (or was it for herself after she escaped Shinra...or was it because she wanted to escape her heritage...I don't remember T.T). I'd get a C in FFVII history if I had to take a test at the moment, so I'll just assume you've got your history right.

About this, you can trust me on it.

 

[Dionysos]

No, Angels and Praying to a Gospel are associated with God and Faith/Religion not healing, I mean yeah eventually when you start cracking down what Faith and God are about its about healing, but Angels represent God not healing -- healing is just something Religious people associate it with, since most religious people turn to God for healing and answers. Exactly they put these three things [Paraying to a Gospel to beckon Angels] together to show Faith in Aerith's persona, you acknowledging this only proves more strongly that not only did the creators know Angels, Praying and Gospel are religiously tied, but they intended it to look that way. If the creators made it, its reliable, you don't have to look at it but it can't really be discredited when Aerith uses it in Advent Children as well as Cloud using his Limit Breaks.

I’m not saying what they’re associated with. I’m saying what people might associate them with when viewing the battle animation, and what goes through people’s heads when they see these things. Fiction often has a clever way of making us think all sorts of things by placing things in a room or scene which cue us to think in a certain way about the whole atmosphere of the scene. I’m not denying the presence of these things, only that they do not suggest to me that Aerith is a follower of Christianity. It urges me to think that Aerith is holy and has a lot of faith, but it didn’t ever strike me as meaning that Aerith is a Christian. That didn’t run through my head at all when playing the game.

You can, but trying to alter the meaning of strict words like that seems discreditable to me. I don't know how "God" can have a new meaning, or "Damn" for that reason, but I can't really prove that we have to use a words meaning to a word I guess. If Earth humans wrote the game, implemented our naturally used words then why couldn't they naturally implement our religions for lack of better enthusiasm to invent one? The point I was trying to make though was; words are words with meanings before they are used for anything, they aren't just - words.

I agree that they aren’t just words, and that they did originally have meaning, here. I’m just saying that people use swear words all of the time now, and without thought for their meaning. Few people who say goddamn really imagine God damning, and few people who say f*cking hell imagine a guy trying desperately to f*ck Hell. People who sandwich words with f*ck also do not always mean that word (“I’m not f*cking gonna f*cking pick up this f*cking pencil and f*cking write a f*cking poem; f*ck that f*ckers” – for an example). All I’m saying is that we can’t assume that any of the swear words used in FFVII were analysed and thought about by the creators, as they probably just rolled off their tongues (/ their fingers).

The limit doesn't show the planet being blown into nothingness, a white light engulfs the screen but it does show the other planets being disintegrated, and I think if Kefka could blow a planet up and have it survive and back on its feet in a year or two, then so could VII's.

You don’t see it disintegrated, but you see the party standing in space. Kefka does indeed destroy the face of the planet, and that is his greatest achievement (I didn’t think it really recovered though, but that is another thread), but the FFVII planet is seen to just vanish temporarily during the final part of the attack, only for everything to go back to the heavenly scene where you fight Sephiroth.

The point I was making was it doesn't have to be an item or animal like a pig and car, it could be anything, the point is if something looks like blank, is called blank and acts like blank, then it must be blank.

If we were to follow this then that still wouldn’t prove the existence of Christianity, or of Buddha or whatever this was originally meant to be about. Since we aren’t given much other than imagery in the game (and even that is very limited), and we are not really given names or actions for the same things we are given images for.

And in terms of religion I think that added to appearance, names and actions, belief is the most crucial of all.

When other things accompany one thing, that could be thought to mean one things then I think that solidifies the meaning.

A Gospel alone, yeah could mean anything, but a Gospel accompanied with Praying and Angels, means one thing; religion.

In your opinion, if this is what this game means for you, then yes. Others like myself wouldn’t want to make that leap as one battle animation does not seem enough for me to claim that Aerith is a Christian and nothing else.

I don't think being a Cetra is a Faith, I think it is a sort of being, I don't remember Cetra having any other religious belief than seeking just the Promised Land.

There were their beliefs regarding the Lifestream, and their connections with the planet. They were a very spiritually aware people.

Back in you other post you said Aerith was being killed by God, I guess the way you worded it confused me.

I did that deliberately to force it to be recognised this time, sorry.

That is how I view it, though not literally.

Jenova is a being who interrupts the way of life of the ancients, ends their era and starts a new one. While Jenova is defeated, the Cetra way of life largely crumbles after Jenova lands, and while Jenova isn’t understood or always known about her presence on the planet affects the planet severely from then on and the people are changed forever. This is very much akin to the rise of Christianity on our planet which essentially gradually marked the end of the ancient world and its faiths – there was a lot of local continuity, no doubt, but the world did change. There are many comparisons to be made, and it isn’t just in the name.

I never said that Jenova WAS Jehovah (well I guess I did, but only as an attention grabber ), only that when you look into it you can find allsorts of messages, just like you can when you look into many other things. If references of all kinds are to equal existence, then Jenova and Sephiroth would need to be recognised too, and that in turn would create a major conflict with Aerith’s beliefs even if everything non-Christian about her was discarded. That’s all I was trying to say.

What would be the final thing to prove to everyone that religion does exist in the game? Obviously religious items/places/words/figures/actions aren't enough to prove it(at least for you all)so, what, in your opinions, would prove it to you all?

I think perhaps either official word from SE, or the naming of the religion or deity in the game (but not just this, but actually connecting it with the faith - since the Hawaii and Texas thing show that we can’t just assume a name of a thing to mean the thing exists either – it would need to be related to the belief, which in this case it could be married), and the mythology and some details of the religion laid out within the game. Even if it still doesn’t make sense, and it would almost be quite controversial or unoriginal, then that could be that if this occurred.

If they wanted to just use all of this to symbolize her "spirituality" with the planet, or even her innocence, then they could have just showed her praying without catholic angels being what she was seeking help from.

It might be that if they had known that this limit break would be used to argue that she was a Christian then they might have regretted creating it like that. I can’t say they would either, but I’m just saying that they may not have really thought the limit break through that much. Yes they have pulled Christian imagery together, and added Great Gospel as the title of the move, and the desired effect of giving Aerith a very holy limit break was successful, but this may still mean very little for Aerith as a person, and may say nothing about her actual faith. Are all white mages Christian? Is Rosa a Christian for her ability to pray? Is Banon a Christian

Spoiler

(for Hal, RIP)

?

Aerith’s limit break is a logical extension of the White Mage moveset. It’s an ultimate, uber-cool version of white mage spells. The Christian imagery is merely fitting, but it doesn’t need to mean that Aerith, Rosa, or Banon are Christians (and this is even only if we take it to be Christian imagery).

But are you going to honestly try and tell me that just because we never heard of a place or city during our playthrough of FFVII that means it doesn't exist?

I can try and tell you that we cannot say that it does exist if it isn’t stated to exist. Why would it exist? Costa del Sol is a place on our planet too, yes, and FFVII is likely a reference to that. Costa del Sol in FFVII is not our Costa del Sol though, just like FFIX’s Alexandria is not Egypt’s Alexandria, and just like FFV’s Karnak is not Egypt’s Karnak.

In that case, that means VII's world would only have about a small handful of towns/cities for an entire planet. As we know with later installments like Crisis Core we were shown that there were indeed more than what we were shown in VII. If there were cities and towns we never got the chance to explore during VII, then who's to say places like Hawaii and Texas don't exist? After all, Costa Del Sol exists in our world and theirs.

While I agree that we only get to see a handful of locations in the game, and that many, many more are likely to exist, I cannot agree that this means that all of Earth’s locations, or even some of them, are also present on this planet. In my opinion (and that is all it is) it seems illogical, and also seems to ruin quite a bit of the fiction to try and turn FFVII’s planet into our own. It doesn’t make sense to me.

It can be said that it is fantasy, and anything can happen, but if we were to morph all of our beliefs about the planet into FFVII’s, or vice versa, and are told to discard a lot of what we know then that is now badly written fiction, and the game is ruined (for a lot of people). Good fiction can be fantastical but still have a sort of logic to it, and a logic that isn’t forced.

In short, all I'm trying to say is that, just because Aerith is a Cetra, that doesn't mean she can't follow a religion.

She isn’t shown to abandon her Cetra origins though, she embraces them and believes and admires the Cetra wholeheartedly when she mentions them. At least that is what I thought she did. I didn’t sense anywhere that she rejected them, though it has been a few years since I played the game.

 

[jdcloudff7]

Here are some of my ideas. They may not make sense.

There are many references to religion in FF7. Like for instance in AC where Cloud pours the water on Denzel's head to heal him. It looked like he was getting baptized.

Isn't the reason why Aerith goes to the church because of the flowers? So really it wouldn't matter where the flowers are Aerith would still look after them. But why do the flowers only grow in the church? An act of God? Because are flowers a rarity in Midgar?

Could the planet be God? Aerith does pray to it and communicates to the plant and vise versa. Or the lifestream which creates life?

I'm going to stop before I confuse anyone else.

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

If religion is consistent throughout the whole of Final Fantasy VII and is the same for everything then I think you could argue Judaism as the name "Sephiroth" refers to Kaballah which contains teachings of the relationship between the Creator and the universe; which could be sort of linked to Jenova trying to control the planet to a certain degree. On the other hand, Aerith could be a completely different religion since I didn't really care all that much to try and work out which people worshipped who.

 

[KadoFox]

It could be just an english version thing. Check out the Japanese version and see if it translates to Great Gospel. Chances are it does not. I don't know myself. I don't own the Japanese version. So there you have it.

 

[The Witch]

Lmao,












It's been revived






KadoFox, that's a good point. Who knows, maybe it isn't Great Gospel... but even if it isn't. It's still a combination of a lot of things that gives some the impression that religion exists in VII's world.

 

[DarkShadow]

Isn't the reason why Aerith goes to the church because of the flowers? So really it wouldn't matter where the flowers are Aerith would still look after them. But why do the flowers only grow in the church? An act of God? Because are flowers a rarity in Midgar?

Could the planet be God? Aerith does pray to it and communicates to the plant and vise versa. Or the lifestream which creates life?

The lifestreams is just the spirit energy of when someone dies (I think thats what Bugenhagen said so)............Aerith is activating Holy through the wgite materia.......so I think God has nothing to do with it..........

No one even mentions god or religion in FFVII........but the characters are religously influenced like aeris (who prays and has religous commands) and vincent (who says he's been sinned).

 

[The Witch]

Jess is gonna kill me.

But I just want to say this; God does exist in the game. The characters themselves have stated so.


Now, I'm outta here.

 

[DarkShadow]

Jess is gonna kill me.

But I just want to say this; God does exist in the game. The characters themselves have stated so.


Now, I'm outta here.

Yeah well nothing to do with the overall story..........plus and even if there is a god no one other than aerith really cares..........Religion does not play a big part in FFVII...........just because commands are named "great gospel" and a spell is called "Holy" doesn't mean anything..........FF characters in the past (even their names) have been based on greek/roman or some kind of mythology and aeris (and vincent kinda) character are just religously influenced.

 

[The Witch]

Guess it's a good thing it's not just Holy and Great Gospel that can prove God/religion exists.

What about Aerith's church? What about Vincent's coffin having a cross on it? What about a picture of a stand glass man with a halo above his head, holding a book I believe with a full beard on his chin? Not to forget about the roman-catholic angels that come to Aerith's aide after she prays during the "Gospel"


Now, I'm really gon leave.

 

[DarkShadow]

Guess it's a good thing it's not just Holy and Great Gospel that can prove God/religion exists.

What about Aerith's church? What about Vincent's coffin having a cross on it? What about a picture of a stand glass man with a halo above his head, holding a book I believe with a full beard on his chin? Not to forget about the roman-catholic angels that come to Aerith's aide after she prays during the "Gospel"


Now, I'm really gon leave.

Yeah well they have summons in FFVII and other FF games named titan,hades,shiva etc..........Which are all part of greek mythology......oh yeah and Shiva is an Hindu god monster: and if you take that on board that means its not only christianity in FFVII but Hinduism as well)............and what you've done is backed up my point and proved Vincent and Aerith have been religously influenced..........no one else except them........the church is just there to relate aeriths character!