The new look

[The Witch]

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[Channizard]

I completely agree on the whole 'using a past as a facade for new hatred'. Black slavery and all that happened decades ago. We've gotten past it. But apparently they haven't. Granted, it's a shitty thing to happen to anybody, but are Jews still forging groups to combat against the Germans for what happened to them? No.

It's a simple thing of just leaving the past in the past, and just let it be. There isn't really anything else we can do these days. I'm sure none of the original people from those days are still alive, so what can 'the white man' possibly do to atone for our sins against the black people?

 

[Sepalcure]

Gods, this whole group just really annoys me. I mean, as a black person, I can't say I support what they believe in since I don't tolerate racism. It's not even just racism but they promote it radically and they've been promoting the same militaristic, violent approach to things, since they emerged as a powerful militant-styled group in the mid-60's and just yeah they were always sort of like, "Black power, Black power!" and all about overthrowing 'the White man'.

I mean understand how what we went through as a race was terrible and learning about it and having it shoved down your throat constantly as a black kid, is sort of . . . I mean, just, I've gotten over it. What we went through as a people as no less terrible than what the Jews went through during the Holocaust or what any other racial group goes through even today. Has the Black Panther Group stopped to look at the Civil genocide in say Sudan or what happened in Rwanda? Have they condemned that? No, I highly doubt it, because they focus on promoting an intense Afrocentric movement.

Hell, they'd hate the fact that my hair's permed. But, yeah, I definitely don't agree with their radicalism at all, it's just . . . unfounded in this day and age. We went through terrible shit as a people, but we've made leaps and bounds from the 1960s, get the hell over it. I really wish they would, just, it's so annoying to know that they represent the Black community like that. Ugh.

 

[Shu]

Meh, Just another hatred group in my opinion. Here's how I see it. I don't associate with my forefathers. I don't give two shits about what someone did way back in 1870, no offense slavery happened, but those were a different type of people. If slavery wasn't abolished because of the Civil War, I believed it would have been gone eventually anyway.

I'm a humanitarian. Hatred from the Pink Panthers (making a point) and KKK are laughable to me. Some of the stuff that the NAACP brings up, makes me laugh as well. Some stuff is very.. well ignorant in itself. There are plenty of ignorant white people, plenty of ignorant black people, plenty of ignorant Asian people, plenty of ignorant Jewish people, etc..etc..

I think these people are just bored. They need a purpose, just like religion, they use their race in order to stamp on something else. We are all the same, men women black white yellow green blue pink christian jewish muslim, you name it, we are all the same. We just identify differently with different cultures, religions, and government.

If these folks want strictly black power, then why not just go to Africa. That's so backwards minded. We should be working together, you dumb asses. People need to get their heads out their ass and start seeing their brother for a brother, and not for someone trying to rape their financial situation. Same goes to white gun toting racist pricks. Get your head out of your ass, not all change is good granted, but we don't even have a president half the country is willing to support. A nation divided, just like the Bush administration. Wouldn't it be great not to depend strictly on the president to get us through things? Wouldn't it feel better to actually work together for something like infinite clean energy. Demilitarization of countries, Denuclearization, instead of trivial shit like Race? GTFO.

 

[Harlequin]

Now, this group is using a freedom and past slavery as a facade for hatred. I've seen and heard this group talk about America in one of the most disrespectful ways I've ever seen. They step on our flag, burn it, and disrespect it in anyway possible.

Let's take another look at that quote:

"History has proven that the white man is absolutely disagreeable to get along with in peace."

I think they've got the wrong end of the stick here.

The main difference between the New World Slavery and those of ancient times was that the New World Slavery established a link in colour and slavery. If you were black, you were inferior to the white man, you had to serve him.

Never before had such a distinction been made on such a large scale. People became slaves as a result of conquest. I you were of another society, you became a slave in their society.

That's not rascism, that's tribalism.

What many fail to understand is that it wasn't the white man oppressing the black man, it was America and European empires oppressing forced black African migrants.

This particular brand of slavery was still taking place in South America. In Brazil for example, there is still a superiority complex to this day from the white man and an inferiority complex from the black man in some parts. Then there are those who are indigenous to the land, who developed a certain way of thinking which was "I might not be as good as the white man, but I'm certainly not as bad as the black man".

That bred the ominous trend of being caste to a system depending entirely on what colour you happened to be born as, rather than what culture and society you represented.

I'm pretty sure they've got some wires crossed, but by burning a flag you make a statement. The Western world built their strength on the back of abhorrent dealings throughout the world. It's an inconvenient truth for some, but when these countries begin to feel threatened or competition emerges, they're quick to beat it down using any which way they can, even if they believe what they're doing to be cruel and unfair.

What happened in Vietnam? They wanted their freedom, the US decided they should vote for it, when the US realised they were going to vote for communism, they boycotted the vote. The next thing you know they're napalming their jungles and destroying their villages.

Is that what the US represents? I'd say judging by history, yes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the USA in the slightest, but I can't say I don't sympathise with those who feel animosity towards the USA.

When the British stole India's resources, when they enslaved millions of Africans, when they invaded the New World and drove the owners of the land out, what flag symbolised their people?

The Union Jack.

Burning a flag is symbolic protest. It's protesting against the culture and society that flag represents. It's never something that should be taken lightly, but surely we should ask why they've decided to burn the flag rather than treat them like mindless vandals.

They bully people into voting their way, they intimidate others that don't agree with them. And they want the white men, or the "rabid dogs" as they referred us as, to pay for what past lives did. I heard that they want the white men to pay for what they've done to them and are continuing to do, and they said they want to start with the white babies.

But you have the right to not listen to them. You have the right to not vote for them. That's Democracy for you.

And yes, it's true, whites, along with Egyptians, enslaved blacks.

The Ancient Egyptians enslaved only people who weren't of their culture.

and women; women have been slaves since the beginning of time practically.

Hold on a second, I don't understand what you mean here. When were women slaves?

 

[CassinoChips]

"History has proven that the white man is absolutely disagreeable to get along with in peace."

That....... is a great quote.

I'd like to point out that The French historian Fernand Braudel noted that slavery was endemic in Africa and part of the structure of everyday life. "Slavery came in different disguises in different societies: there were court slaves, slaves incorporated into princely armies, domestic and household slaves, slaves working on the land, in industry, as couriers and intermediaries, even as traders" (Braudel 1984 p. 435)

Whether slavery existed in sub-Saharan Africa before the Europeans got there is very much in debate among academics. Regardless, the use of the word 'endemic' is very misleading. The connotation there is that native Africans employed the same version of slavery (chattel slavery) as the Europeans did. Which, irrespective of whether slavery existed before the arrival of European slave-traders, is completely untrue.

The only documented version of slavery native Africans practiced before the arrival of the Europeans was debt bondage, and specifically pawnship, which is a milder version thereof. Basically, a person owed a debt to another, and was forced to work for that person until the debt was paid off. The debt could be carried over generations. But it was person-to-person, and was not on a massive scale like chattel slavery was.

Sub-Saharan Africans 'learned' chattel slavery from the Europeans, and North Africans learned it from Muslim states to the east. Slavery may have been endemic to Africa, but chattel slavery was wholly unknown to them until it was brought to them by outsiders.

===

As to the Black Panthers, I can handle a little bit of anger from black Americans after the 400 years of shit we (European-descended Americans/colonists) put them through. That doesn't just go away in 45 years. And, of course, it's a free country, they can say whatever they want. Do I agree with them? Of course not. Radicalism creates more problems than solutions, and an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. But they have the right to espouse whatever beliefs they like.

 

[Harlequin]

What about the thousand of years jews and Egyptians were slaves? Or the Native Americans and how they were slaves to Spain. Do they get to say that they should kill people they want, starting with the babies? No of course not.

There is NO defending this pathetic group of bullies.

What about these days? What about the black man who is born in a neighbourhood with a liquor or gun store on every corner? What about equal opportunities?

It's much like the BNP (British National Party) over here. It's a group of people bound together by a society in which they feel has shut them out. If you ignore a group of people, hate begins to ferment and society begins to break down. I believe these people need help, not scorn.

 

[Harlequin]

So, wait. I grew up around gun and liquor stores ALL around me. Is that the same thing?

Not necessarily. I was commenting on socioeconomic mobility and stigma.

How does a bad city in American equal unequal opportunities for blacks? The whites didn't throw them in those situations.

I haven't said nor am I saying that 'white' people threw them in there, but the US segregated them into inferior living conditions. When segregation was abolished the black American may have been given the western perception of freedom, but they weren't taken out of the ghettoes, they weren't housed in the suburbs, their children still receive the stigma every now and then that their forefathers did years ago, and so on.

I'm not saying a black man can't work his way out of the ghetto, but is there as much as an opportunity for him as there is the white man born in suburbia?

They're there in a bad city because they're poor.

That's a very skewered way of looking at it. They're there because they were born to a family who were put in that situation because of rascism and cruelty.

Just like ALL different races that are poor. If you're poor you're screwed, it has nothing to do with blacks.

I didn't say they were the only one's who were screwed when they were poor. But they're born unto stigma in the USA, sadly at times because of nothing other than their colour.

Where blacks grow up has NOTHING to do with anything and is, in no way, a reason for the retarded panthers to attack the "white man".

I agree. I haven't said anything to disagree. In my original post I explained how the white man is not at fault, it's the culture that oppressed them. There are other caucasians besides those in North America and Western Europe whose countries had nothing to do with the slave trade.

With that said, why should "white men" or the "rabid dog" of today be blamed for what idiots did in the past?

I didn't say they should be.

Whites of today didn't enslave the blacks of the past.

But here's the clincher. A black man was a slave because of his colour.

What many black people have argued is that if he is kept out of a job because of his colour, he is consigned to a caste system based on how he was born.

If a black family moves into a prodominantly white suburb, will they be treated the same way by the community as a white family would?

Whether it's slavery or prejudice, both are based on rascism, which is their frame of reference and why they dislike the America in which they live.

Why blame the future for past mistakes? Does that make ANY sense to anyone? You don't see me hating England for them killing early settlers of America.

Europeans killing Europeans. I wasn't about aesthetic prejudice, it was about power. The slave trade wasn't.

You don't see Jewish people hating Germans. Wanna know why? Because we know it's ignorant to hate someone that had NOTHING to do with past problems.

But what if modern day Germany continued to fly the flag of the Third Reich? What if modern day Germans continued to have a superiority complex?

If people think that way, then I could just as easily hate all x-race for what one person did to me. Now, if I were to hate x-race for what x-person did I'd be called a racist. Now, why does it make sense to anyone that blacks get to blame whites of today for what whites did in the past?

It doesn't. I never justified hating an entire race nor hating anyone for that matter.

 

[Harlequin]

What about my parents? Were they put in a bad situation because of racism and cruelty?

You tell me. I don't know what race you are. I'm just giving you my opinion on the situation and on your argument

 

[Rasputin]

It seems like this debate has long since moved away from the original topic, so I propose we change the question from "Are the Black Panthers relevant?" (answer: they stopped being relevant decades ago) to "Is there a white conspiracy in the US against black people"?

Personally I'd like to say no, but I do know a few groups of people who still hold the traditional Deep South views of racism as an ideal. Thankfully they are only a small minority these days.

 

[Harlequin]

Well, here's my situation. Bad city, bad income--now, did my family get there because of our race or because we're just not better off like rich folk?

Again, I would have no way of knowing nor building a belief based on reference as to whether you were there because of race.

If being in a bad situation and city, when the person is black, means they're there because of racism. The same should be said for any race that is in said bad situation.

I didn't say that. This is what I said:

...the US segregated them into inferior living conditions. When segregation was abolished the black American may have been given the western perception of freedom, but they weren't taken out of the ghettoes, they weren't housed in the suburbs, their children still receive the stigma every now and then that their forefathers did years ago, and so on.

I'm not saying a black man can't work his way out of the ghetto, but is there as much as an opportunity for him as there is the white man born in suburbia?

That in no way states that because someone is Black and is living in poverty it's rascism, but that the majority of African Americans came from inferior living conditions imposed on them from the segregation days.

Now, I'll ask again. Was my family dealt this bad city life because of our race, like what black people claim?

I don't know. You tell me. Have you experienced any prejudice that would have you believe that was the case?

 

[Sepalcure]

It seems like this debate has long since moved away from the original topic, so I propose we change the question from "Are the Black Panthers relevant?" (answer: they stopped being relevant decades ago) to "Is there a white conspiracy in the US against black people"?

Personally I'd like to say no, but I do know a few groups of people who still hold the traditional Deep South views of racism as an ideal. Thankfully they are only a small minority these days.

Lolz, and to jump in, I'll say that I don't feel there's any personal conspiracy against us as a race or whatever by white people. Or maybe I'm blind and I just can't see that they're all out to get me beat me into the farthest corners of a lower caste system, so to speak. That was sarcasm. But honestly, compared to say the 50's and the mid-60s-70s racism isn't as blatant or as in your face as it used to be, once upon a time.

I mean, once upon a time, it used to be that the black community was separated from the white community. You know, you had segregation: bathrooms, restaurants, classrooms, parks, who could sit in the front and who could claim the back seat. We've evolved, I believe greatly since then as a nation. Now, there's integration. every race, creed, religion, ethnic group, etc. can attend a public school or secular school or religious private institution without having to feel any sort of prejudice. That's not to say that there aren't, you know, unfortunately some black people or white people or Asian people or whatever that don't feel some sort racial prejudice against someone else just because of some different in melanin which is, to me, absolutely ludicrous.

But, it has improved substantially, as I said before since the times of the Black Panther, the KKK, the emergence of the NAACP as a movement, etc. We no longer, should and I say should, because some people are quick to label anything as being racist, but we no longer should have to feel as if we're treading on metaphorical eggshells over everything. We shouldn't have to pull the race card and by the way this is applied in a general or broader term to every racial group in this regard, in my opinion. So yeah, that's my personal take on it.

Has racism been totally abolished? No, as long as there are people who are ignorant and who lack the proper knowledge and sense of what's politically correct or acceptable, then you're always going to have that one person or group of people who'll look at you funny because you're purple and they're green. All they know is green, all they were taught about were green people, how they act, how they behave, how they speak, and there was this recurring ignorance, this spreading of ignorance as commonly accepted knowledge.

So it's basically like that, you're always going to have some people who will accept racism as being acceptable, who will not frown down upon Anti-Semitism because where they're from, they way their environment: their peers, coworkers, teachers, parents, etc. have taught them, was simply to embrace that socially unacceptable belief and prejudice. Yeah . . .

And then you have the people who truly hate their own race, for some reason, whether it be because they feel ostracized or they feel as if they identify with white people or asian people or whatever more. But, that's me straying off the topic, so ignore that.

I'm about to pass out now, that's all I can say for the moment. Hopefully, what I posted made some sort of sense. Hopefully . . .

 

[Rasputin]

So, does the black panthers really have any reason to say that white people are holding them down and "stepping on them"?

These people are NOT the Black Panthers, that group existed in the 60's and 70's when legalized discrimination was still a reality to some extent in this country. They are no more authentic than the racist "revival" of the KKK in the 50's which had far more to do with oppressing minorities than fighting against enemies of the former Confederacy. I feel like the "New Black Panthers" are deluding themselves if they consider themselves martyrs in some war of oppression, and because of their small membership they aren't worth paying attention to until they are willing to sit down and have a rational debate.

 

[Ilyena]

So, does the black panthers really have any reason to say that white people are holding them down and "stepping on them"?

Since our country loves to promote freedom of speech, they can say whatever they want, tbh. :dave:

Unfortunately, hate groups will always exist as long as there are people who want to blame others for their problems.

I certainly disagree with their views but there are a lot of people that still harbor lingering feelings of resentment. History and culture are passed down through generations and there are still blacks alive today that lived through the civil rights era, segregation, etc. Of course their feelings aren't just going to dissipate because of integration. There was a time when whites were treated like they were superior to blacks due to skin color and some people still remember that time because they lived through it.

So while I disagree with their viewpoints, I can sort of understand why their views are that way. I also agree with Jesse though that hatred like this only creates more problems than it solves.

 

[Rasputin]

THAT I agree with. But this group of people are still spreading they're hatred around, hiding it behind the face of wanting freedom.

Well, we do have freedom of speech in this country. Nothing wrong with "spreading hatred" around so long as you don't incite acts of violence or actually break the law. For the most part these modern groups haven't.

 

[Harlequin]

That's avoiding the question. If their bad situation can be blamed on racism or segragation, other races being in bad situations can blame racism too.

I'm not saying there's a huge conspiracy to keep black Americans down, nor am I saying there isn't, but they have historical reference of rascism and how it's impacts are still being felt today.

Here's another quote from my original post:

This particular brand of slavery was still taking place in South America. In Brazil for example, there is still a superiority complex to this day from the white man and an inferiority complex from the black man in some parts. Then there are those who are indigenous to the land, who developed a certain way of thinking which was "I might not be as good as the white man, but I'm certainly not as bad as the black man".

That's an example of how the effects of the past still have repercussions today. A black man born in the ghetto is there because his family was put there. This is not an excuse, just reference as to why he is born poor.

You do realize, they could have left those bad areas, right? Just like the Natives left to go live on their own land again.

Of course. Many chose to go to Liberia, but the culture shock you would receive having been a second class citizen and integrated into American culture, to then relocate to Africa would have been horrendous. To suggest they should move because they don't like the conditions that were forced upon them is nothing short of bigoted.

Well, if the blacks are in bad situations because of prejudice/racism then I guess I could say the same thing for why I'm inmy situation.

I'm not trying to wind you up, but can you provide us with a reason as to why you could argue you're in that situation because of race?

 

[Sepalcure]

That's avoiding the question. If their bad situation can be blamed on racism or segragation, other races being in bad situations can blame racism too.


You do realize, they could have left those bad areas, right? Just like the Natives left to go live on their own land again.


Well, if the blacks are in bad situations because of prejudice/racism then I guess I could say the same thing for why I'm inmy situation.

Honestly, why is this a racial thing, ugh. Um, again, I shall speak for myself. Alright, I have an uncle who is very poor. He works two jobs and supports three daughters as well as himself and his wife. His wife refuses to work, she is an invalid, a self-professed one that doesn't have to mumble it with words, she does it through her actions. By, you guessed it doing absolutely nothing even remotely related to attempting to apply for a job or whatever. This means, that my uncle must constantly try to maintain two jobs, for two salaries, to clothe this children, feed his children, clothe himself, his wife, and feed them both, oh and have enough money for gas and some more saved up for his younger childrens' you know college funds/tuition fees for the future.

Right, they're black. Well to be more specific, ethnic-wise, they're Jamaican or West-Indian which is a broader term. The point is, that they did not land in their socioeconomic condition because of the fact that they were black, because of the fact my uncle and his daughters happened to have less melanin than you know, John Doe and his family down in the street. There are white people that I know of who are broke as well and it has nothing to do with their race.

Why? Because we live in America and fortunately, for most people, in most states, when you're dirt poor, you have what's known as welfare. Where you get food stamps and financial support from the government monthly which adds up altogether annually so you utilize this as a financial crutch for your family. I can't tell you whether my uncle is in dire straits to the point where he's had to accept that sort of financial help.

But what I can tell you is that I'm pretty darn sure that if he did need help, the state would not disallow him from asking for financial aid strictly because of the fact that he was Black. To them, he's a man who would be in desperate need of financial help because not only would he be the only financial provider in the family, but he would be supporting altogether, five mouths on a measly standard income composed of two separate smaller salaries .

I don't find it fair to say that all black people use segregation or you know racism or you know prejudices or whatever you want to call it as an excuse to say that this is why they're in the ghetto. No, they'd tell you they're in the ghetto because their dad up and left, their mom got involved in drugs, mom's a prostitute, their parents died, got caught up in a civil gang war, you know, or maybe simply because dad got laid off. That's what happened to my uncle, he got laid off after 9/11. Before that, he had a wonderful job, he made more than a couple of thousands a year. His wife could live comfortably as a housewife and his children could sleep well at night knowing that at that point, they'd have a roof over their head and meals in their stomachs and they wouldn't have to see their dad beg my mother for money.

So please don't generalize that. Not every person will use race as a defensive means to back up the reasons for their being in a ghetto or a terrible socio economic situation.

PS: If I came across as being uncouth or decidedly defensive or whatever, I want to apologize in advance for that. Just know that comment sort of hit home and I felt the need to back it up with some evidence, however personal. So yeah, it wasn't my intention to offend you or you know come across as rude or just blase. It just needed to be clarified and explained and put out there.

 

[blakstang98]

Personally, I believe that what happened in history happened, and there really isn't any reason to spread it to this generation. I fully sympathize for the black men and women that were forced into slavery, and I understand that some of these people will feel a little uneasy around white people because they have bad memories from their past, but most of these people have moved on with their lives and hold no grudges. As the old saying goes, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Resolving a problem by creating more will not help in the long run. I do support that a race of people are sticking together, but what good comes from "getting revenge"?.

On that same token, the KKK still exists, though smaller than years past. There are still racists in the United States, but not nearly as many as before. So naturally there will be racists that are black that hate the white man as well. So in some twisted way, it does serve as a nice balance. I would say that for the most part, the white man has moved on from their racial views with most racists being from the older generation. And it's natural for some black people to be racist as well. As I've stated in a thread before, "can't we all just get along?" That thread wasn't enough to sway 100 or so forum members, so naturally I wouldn't expect it to be the case with millions of people. But I do believe the KKK manages to keep their activities at a low enough level that they almost go unnoticed, so why would the New Black Panthers make their movement so large and publicized?

I'm not saying a black man can't work his way out of the ghetto, but is there as much as an opportunity for him as there is the white man born in suburbia?

That's a very skewered way of looking at it. They're there because they were born to a family who were put in that situation because of rascism and cruelty.

The first statement is completely false. Anyone who works hard, can make it somewhere in life. To think that a more well-to-do white man has more opportunity is wrong. If a person in a bad situation gives up and chooses to live the way they do, then that's what they chose, it has nothing to do with racism holding them down. Nothing in life is earned easily, regardless of color.

Unfortunately, racism is a reality, and will never be abolished. But again, to think that a family is being held down by it a few decades later is completely incorrect. The children of those who grew up in a fully racist generation had plenty of time to work out of a hole that their parents were put into. Some will still hold this grudge as a result, but they're certainly not in a bad situation by force. Such a small percentage of the population in the United States is actually racist, don't make the assumption that the United States is a segregated country.

 

[Harlequin]

Okay, what about my family? Why was my father born poor because of segregation or race? Again, being born in the ghetto is left up to the parents to get out of the situation.

I agree, but what if subversive factors make it harder for someone belonging of an ethic minority to do so than a caucasian?

Do you think King let his bad situation keep him down? No, he fought his bad situation, like all poor people facing terrible fates, and won over them brilliantly.

Again I agree. But I had never delivered my post as an excuse, only as background information on the discussion.

You completely misunderstood what I just said. They don't HAVE to leave the "ghetto" but if they don't like it, they should have gotten up and changed their situation like what all poor people do.

But what about the black man who can only go so far because of rascism ingrained in American society because of segregation? What do you say to him? Try harder?

I'm not saying it's bound to happen, nor am I saying all black American families are born to poverty, but what of those that are? Do we ignore them?

Well, if blacks are kept in the ghetto nowadays because of race, then it's only fair to say the same for the asian, hispanic, or white groups stuck in the ghetto.

But what I'm trying to say is that some people feel it's an injustice that there are black people being born in inferior living situations as a direct result of things that happened years ago.

The first statement is completely false. Anyone who works hard, can make it somewhere in life. To think that a more well-to-do white man has more opportunity is wrong.

Hold on a sec Dan, I hadn't stated that a Black man had less opportunity, I only asked a question to provoke thought.

 

[blakstang98]

But what about the black man who can only go so far because of rascism ingrained in American society because of segregation? What do you say to him? Try harder?

I'm not saying it's bound to happen, nor am I saying all black American families are born to poverty, but what of those that are? Do we ignore them?

But what I'm trying to say is that some people feel it's an injustice that there are black people being born in inferior living situations as a direct result of things that happened years ago.

Hold on a sec Dan, I hadn't stated that a Black man had less opportunity, I only asked a question to provoke thought.

First off, my apologies. That statement that I quoted was actually a question and I labeled it as a statement, so I'm sorry about that. But I'll say that you are implying what I stated. I came to this implication by the statements above and many others you've made throughout the thread. You seem to believe that racial segregation exists in the United States. Simply what I was saying is that such segregation doesn't exist. Individuals may be racist, sure, but certainly not society as a whole. If anything, minorites, not just black people, have been taken care of by our country. There's a reason we are "the land of the free" and more people move into our country than any other, because they won't be held down for not being American. Opportunities are more abundant for minorities as well because law dictates it. Sure, there are minorities in inferior living conditions, but there are plenty who manage to work their way out of it. A black man would never be held down because American society forces it, it would be because he never tried to make his way up.