Ending Debate *Spoilers*

[LucianVII]

Do you think Squall survived in the end or no?

I had always thought that he did with the ending, but now I'm not so sure. I read an article saying that he didn't survive... in fact they tried to prove that Squall had died at the end of disc 1 when ice shards were hurled into his body, and that he is somehow tied to Griever (one of the final bosses). I don't believe he did die at the end of disc 1, but it made me think more about the ending of the game. For example, if Squall is in fact alive then why didn't it just show him along with Rinoa through the camera lens? What does everyone else think about the ending?

 

[Sheechiibii]

Sounds like you've discovered the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory and the Squall's dead theory. Both of them are pretty much just fan imaginations gotten creative. Squall being tied to Griever is part of the R=U theory, which is an impossible theory because if Rinoa was Ultimecia then they could not have both existed as separate people during time compression, so you never would have been able to fight the end boss. While the squall's dead theory has no real way of being proven wrong, it's also got no actual substance. It's basically just saying 'the main character got beaten in a fight and so must have actually died from that wound' even though the wound was not fatal, and there were many reasons for Ultimecia to want to keep Squall alive for interrogation.

About not seeing Squall at the end. You do see Squall with Rinoa at the end of the credits, you see the whole balcony scene where Rinoa points to the shooting star and you see what you didn't see on the camera, that Squall is next to her and he walks over and kisses her.

 

[LucianVII]

Ahh okay good to know that those theories don't have any credibility. I wasn't sure if that ending was intentionally left open for debate by Square.

I do remember that scene, just wasn't sure if the scene you were talking about was just from Rinoa's perspective (who clearly believes Squall is there). But with the way the camera was shot, I think when Zell had the camera, it didn't show Squall. I wasn't sure if that was suggesting that Rinoa was just seeing him and the others couldn't, or if it was just a random camera angle... if that makes sense.

Also, was the ending with Squall and Rinoa more of a extended ending that you need to unlock? If so then maybe that was why they made it more mysterious with the first part of the ending.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Ahh okay good to know that those theories don't have any credibility. I wasn't sure if that ending was intentionally left open for debate by Square.

I do remember that scene, just wasn't sure if the scene you were talking about was just from Rinoa's perspective (who clearly believes Squall is there). But with the way the camera was shot, I think when Zell had the camera, it didn't show Squall. I wasn't sure if that was suggesting that Rinoa was just seeing him and the others couldn't, or if it was just a random camera angle... if that makes sense.

Also, was the ending with Squall and Rinoa more of a extended ending that you need to unlock? If so then maybe that was why they made it more mysterious with the first part of the ending.

It's not the first time they've put an extra scene after the credits, I think the reason they didn't show him until after the credits this time was because they wanted to keep people in suspense about whether he was alive or not. You got that ending no matter what, it didn't have to be unlocked or anything and I don't think it was from Rinoa's perspective, it panned round the whole garden and showed both Rinoa and Squall there. Plus, if Squall had died I doubt everybody would have been partying and having a good time with Rinoa standing out on the balcony on her own.

 

[charliepanayi]

He definitely survives, I never understood why some people wanted to take a happy ending and turn it into something depressing based on no evidence at all!

 

[iSmiff]

... if Rinoa was Ultimecia then they could not have both existed as separate people during time compression, so you never would have been able to fight the end boss.

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure i've read something somewhere which contradicts that but.. alas i'm far too lazy to dig it up. There are a lot of similarities and themes that Rinoa and Ultimecia share. Both those theories seem plausible to me; much more so the Squall is Dead one, though. I love that one.

 

[Sheechiibii]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure i've read something somewhere which contradicts that but.. alas i'm far too lazy to dig it up. There are a lot of similarities and themes that Rinoa and Ultimecia share. Both those theories seem plausible to me; much more so the Squall is Dead one, though. I love that one.

Time compression is explained in the game, during time compression there are no past, present and future, everything is merged into one time-line. So one person cannot exist in time compression as both their older self and their younger self. Both Rinoa and Ultimecia were present in time compression at the end of the game, making it impossible for them to be the same person. I understand why people like the theory, because it makes Ultimecia (who we know very little about) a whole lot more interesting, but it doesn't make sense when you consider the ending and how both Rinoa and Ultimecia were there inside the time compressed world.

The Squall is dead one, there's no way to prove it's not true. But there's really no reason to think it is either lol I mean, the basis of it is that because the main character was knocked out by a fairly bad wound, that means he must have died and everything after that is a dream. Even though it's explained that he was healed for interrogation because he's the leader of SeeD, who the big bad guy knows is what stops her. It makes things interesting in a different way, but there's really no basis to it .

 

[LucianVII]

Time compression is explained in the game, during time compression there are no past, present and future, everything is merged into one time-line.

If only they explained it the same way in the game lol.... or maybe i wasn't paying attention at that part.

 

[Sheechiibii]

If only they explained it the same way in the game lol.... or maybe i wasn't paying attention at that part.

I'm pretty sure they did explain it in the game, when Edea first explains what time compression is she says "it's time magic. Past, present and future get compressed". On top of it being impossible for both Rinoa and Ultimecia to be the same person and exist at the same time during time compression there's also the fact that Ultimecia comes from a future 'many generations from our time' so she can't be Rinoa, because Rinoa will be long dead by that point.

 

[iSmiff]

The Squall is dead one, there's no way to prove it's not true. But there's really no reason to think it is either lol I mean, the basis of it is that because the main character was knocked out by a fairly bad wound, that means he must have died and everything after that is a dream. Even though it's explained that he was healed for interrogation because he's the leader of SeeD, who the big bad guy knows is what stops her. It makes things interesting in a different way, but there's really no basis to it .

I think what makes it so plausible in my mind is how Squall goes from being mortally wounded and then when he wakes up everything starts to change for him in a way that sees him become the focal point. He becomes the leader of garden, Rinoa falls in love with him, and he's charged with saving the world? And you can't deny the whole lack of any sort of wound thing is lazy by the devs and really gives this theory strength too. Maybe he IS dead and the only reason he doesn't have a wound is because in his dream , his continuation of life flashing before his eyes, that isn't relevant. If anything it only shows how strong be is, possibly another egocentric subliminal thought of his. You think; who was Squall before? Nobody really. Would he really be chosen to lead Garden? You're telling me there's no one more qualified in the garden than a recently promoted rookie 17 year old SeeD? That's crazy, whereas in his own mind that's perfectly logical. There's little things like that that make me enjoy it as a theory. I'm not saying I think it's true, 99% chance that it isn't but it definitely raises some interesting points. I might reread the synopsis of it when I get home from work later or on a break. I remember being shocked the first time I read it haha

 

[Sheechiibii]

I think what makes it so plausible in my mind is how Squall goes from being mortally wounded and then when he wakes up everything starts to change for him in a way that sees him become the focal point. He becomes the leader of garden, Rinoa falls in love with him, and he's charged with saving the world?

You mean...the way the story goes in pretty much every FF game?

And you can't deny the whole lack of any sort of wound thing is lazy by the devs and really gives this theory strength too.

How? There are heaps of examples where wounds have been healed in ff games. Could you not say the same thing about his fight with Seifer at the very start? He took a sword hit to the head and survived, you could just as easily say he actually died then and everything in the entire game is a dream? couldn't you? Just because we don't see a scar where he ha his wound doesn't mean it's not there, given the graphics at the time it would have been pretty hard and kind of unnecessary to show his chest and the scar.

Maybe he IS dead and the only reason he doesn't have a wound is because in his dream , his continuation of life flashing before his eyes, that isn't relevant. If anything it only shows how strong be is, possibly another egocentric subliminal thought of his. You think; who was Squall before? Nobody really. Would he really be chosen to lead Garden? You're telling me there's no one more qualified in the garden than a recently promoted rookie 17 year old SeeD? That's crazy, whereas in his own mind that's perfectly logical.

You could say the same about most FF lead characters. Would Tidus really be chosen to become a guardian? Someone who has had no training, doesn't know anything about the world? And then everything starts to centre around him, turns out he's connected to everything that happens in the game, even things that happened 10 years previous link back to him. Maybe he actually died when Sin attacked Zanarkand in the begining and everything following that is in his dying mind. Would Zidane really ever become the saviour of the world? Why would a princess, who has an entire army at her disposal, choose to trust a thief and fall in love with him on top of that? And then for everything to start being connected to him, maybe it was actually Zidane who was turned to stone in the Evil Forest and everything after that is his dream?

There's little things like that that make me enjoy it as a theory. I'm not saying I think it's true, 99% chance that it isn't but it definitely raises some interesting points. I might reread the synopsis of it when I get home from work later or on a break. I remember being shocked the first time I read it haha

I totally get why some people enjoy it, but I don't think it makes it any more plausible. I was shocked the first time I read it too, and I found it really interesting, but I still don't think it holds up as a theory, though it is certainly a good fanfiction alternative view of the game.

 

[iSmiff]

Sorry for the lazy reply In terms of formatting: I'm on my phone.

1. Yeah I appreciate that, but it still doesn't mean there doesn't have to be a logical reason for it.

2. If argue the pretty significant facial scar shows how different it is to the other one. Squall actually mentions how he is surprised that there is no wound.

3. Yuna wanted him to become a guardian after he had proven himself in battle and due to his connection to Jecht. The whole Zidane turning to stone thing might have been possible except he's never actually turned to stone, whereas Squall could've actually been killed by the ice bolt. And you can't help who you fall in love with . Maybe it was Stockholm Syndrome?! A highly elite mercenary force picking a new recruit 17 year old leader still makes me laugh though. I understand that the games are going to have their main character in some sort of focal point but yeah. Come on. Haha. Can't argue that is kinda a bit... Well you know

 

[Sheechiibii]

Sorry for the lazy reply In terms of formatting: I'm on my phone.

Haha that's okay, phones aren't the best for replies XD

1. Yeah I appreciate that, but it still doesn't mean there doesn't have to be a logical reason for it.

There are reasons for it, we learn them later in the story, which according to the theory doesn't matter at all cause it's after the first disk and so is just Squall's way of explaining how he got important.

2. If argue the pretty significant facial scar shows how different it is to the other one. Squall actually mentions how he is surprised that there is no wound.

Yeah but like I said, no wound doesn't mean no scar. He was surprised that he had no wound, that he'd been healed and yet was obviously not with his allies.

3. Yuna wanted him to become a guardian after he had proven himself in battle and due to his connection to Jecht. The whole Zidane turning to stone thing might have been possible except he's never actually turned to stone, whereas Squall could've actually been killed by the ice bolt.

But his connection to Jecht was revealed later in the plot, so that could just have been Tidus' way of explaining how he was important enough to get the girl and save the world. Same way Squall becoming the leader makes sense because he's naturally talented at leading people, he's serious and dedicated to the task at hand, which is rare for teenagers, and SeeD seems to be a group of mercenary teenagers only. Probably takes after his dad that way it was Cid who made him leader after all and it's likely he knew his heritage too which could have had something to do with the decision.

And you can't help who you fall in love with .

Very true. That applies to Rinoa as well though lol but according to the theory her falling for Squall must be a dream because it's so unlikely.

A highly elite mercenary force picking a new recruit 17 year old leader still makes me laugh though. I understand that the games are going to have their main character in some sort of focal point but yeah. Come on. Haha. Can't argue that is kinda a bit... Well you know

Oh I know, but it's kind of a running theme in Final Fantasy games XD pretty much all the lead characters are new recruits in their own way. Squall had far more training than Tidus or Zidane, and they all became leaders and pretty much saved the entire world. Squall is also the son of a President who previously saved the world 17 years ago, so it's not that surprising that he'd be picked to lead them. No more surprising than most other FF games anyways. So why is he the only one who needs to be dead and dreaming for it to make sense?

 

[LucianVII]

I would agree that the Squall being dead theory doesn't hold any weight. I think the main problem I would have with it is that it would lessen my view of the story dramatically. If they made it clear that Squall was only dreaming the second, third and fourth discs I would never want to replay the game again. I would also agree that there would be no real reason for showing a scar on his chest. Could they have done a better job covering up why Squall had miraculously recovered? Absolutely. (Although as mentioned by Sheechiibii earlier they did say they wanted to keep Squall alive for answers anyways). I think with these games there are inconsistencies throughout each one, and will probably continue to be.

Hell, maybe they were too focused on the mind fuck that is time compression when Squall was injured.

 

[The Witch]

no, squall is not dead. he is alive. it's a fun theory, but no. i've already made a giant post about this i think but icba to find it right now. the thing about writing and engaging in stories that deal with time-travel and crap is that people will always have theories about how two ccharacters can't exist at the same time or whatever, but they're forgetting that it's time travel. the past exists until the future destroys the thing in the past. but both past and future can interact with each other until one destroys the other.

idk why i'm bothering, if quantum physicists argue over this shit a bunch of people on a forum ain't gonna solve it


















or can we?

 

[Miasma Dragon]

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure i've read something somewhere which contradicts that but.. alas i'm far too lazy to dig it up. There are a lot of similarities and themes that Rinoa and Ultimecia share. Both those theories seem plausible to me; much more so the Squall is Dead one, though. I love that one.

Time compression is explained in the game, during time compression there are no past, present and future, everything is merged into one time-line. So one person cannot exist in time compression as both their older self and their younger self. Both Rinoa and Ultimecia were present in time compression at the end of the game, making it impossible for them to be the same person. I understand why people like the theory, because it makes Ultimecia (who we know very little about) a whole lot more interesting, but it doesn't make sense when you consider the ending and how both Rinoa and Ultimecia were there inside the time compressed world.

The Squall is dead one, there's no way to prove it's not true. But there's really no reason to think it is either lol I mean, the basis of it is that because the main character was knocked out by a fairly bad wound, that means he must have died and everything after that is a dream. Even though it's explained that he was healed for interrogation because he's the leader of SeeD, who the big bad guy knows is what stops her. It makes things interesting in a different way, but there's really no basis to it .

On time compression: no one was supposed to be able to survive it except for Ultimecia. Even the technology they used to allow themselves to be sent into the compressed time was a risk they were taking. Then as for Ultimecia coming from ages in the future, that can be explained away by magic itself (time magic or self-healing magic, take your pick) or the system the Esthars used to chain up sorceresses, what we know as cryofreeze. (Like say Rinoa eventually gets frozen again or has magic applied to her, knowingly or unknowingly, granting her immortality or the semblance of immortality.) Then while we talk about time-travel, we don't acknowledge how the world of FFVIII as we know it could already be an alternate timeline with the Point of Divergence likely at the point that the kids lived with Edea in that foster home.

Either way, I don't accept that Ultimecia didn't have some intimate connection towards Squall.

On the other hand, the Squall-is-Dead theory has an even bigger problem: nowhere do we see magic being as physical as a rock or stone. Not an illusion by any means, but that it's very possible it may have just damaged him on the inside and mentally.

 

[SquallKefka17]

Nah for me the R= U theory would have meant Rinoa from the future was possesing herself from the past and that Rinoa from the past travelled to kill herself in the future. It also means that Rinoa/Ultimecia from the future tried to kill both her beloved and herself(thus erasing her own existense in the future) in the past on many occasions. This also pretty much cancels out the Rinoa becomes Ultimecia from the grief of losing Squall when she travelled into the past and tried to kill him before he even dies naturally thus losing him even sooner.

What gets me about the Squall is dead theory why would he dream that he is the son of a guy he already insisted he hated in disc one (Laguna) and he was already a reluctant hero which means he went on to have a dream about been linkeed with someone he hated and been pushed into something he didn't want to do. As for Cid making Squall leader perhaps it was to do with his father been a war hero but more than likely Edea was possesed nat the time and Ultimecia was already aware Squall was going to travel to the future to defeat her so perhaps she was manipulating Cid into pushing Squall into her sights sooner rather than later so she or Seifer could kill him before he got the chance?

 

[Galadín]

Nah for me the R= U theory would have meant Rinoa from the future was possesing herself from the past and that Rinoa from the past travelled to kill herself in the future. It also means that Rinoa/Ultimecia from the future tried to kill both her beloved and herself(thus erasing her own existense in the future) in the past on many occasions. This also pretty much cancels out the Rinoa becomes Ultimecia from the grief of losing Squall when she travelled into the past and tried to kill him before he even dies naturally thus losing him even sooner.

This is a very valid point. I think what mixes people up regarding the Rinoa/Ultimcia > Squall thing is the fact that Ultimecia uses Griever (note the name of the pseudo GF) as a weapon against the party at the end game boss battle. Why and how did she get her hand on a physical representation of a sigil from Squall's ring? Even if she wanted to play mind games with him, I fail to see how the manifestation of Griever achieves any sort of impact on his psyche. The fact that Rinoa requests to see the ring earlier on in the game for no apparent reason what so ever also raises a few questions.

Personally I don't buy the whole Rinoa/Ultimecia theory, but this is definitely one aspect that still hasn't been rationalised and annoyingly gives a small bit of credence to the "Rinoa/Ultimecia", "Squall's Dead because of a Blizzaga spell" theories.

 

[Belazor et Britannia]

It also means that Rinoa/Ultimecia from the future tried to kill both her beloved and herself(thus erasing her own existense in the future) in the past on many occasions.

Just a quick note on this; while I don't know if the theory existed back in '98, in today's world, this isn't necessarily the case. if you subscribe to string theory, then the "grandfather paradox" (if you go back in the past to kill your own grandfather, you will never be born, thus you can't have gone back in the past to kill your granfather, [...]) is impossible.

In string theory, if you were to travel to the past, you wouldn't be going to your past, you would be going to a new "instance" of the universe. The person whose grandfather you killed isn't you, your existence is 100% unaffected by whoever you kill in this "alternate universe".

In other words, the fact that Rinoa/Ultimecia would have tried to kill each other's past, present and future iterations doesn't mean they still can't be the same person.

 

[Shaissa]

Just a quick note on this; while I don't know if the theory existed back in '98, in today's world, this isn't necessarily the case. if you subscribe to string theory, then the "grandfather paradox" (if you go back in the past to kill your own grandfather, you will never be born, thus you can't have gone back in the past to kill your granfather, [...]) is impossible.

In string theory, if you were to travel to the past, you wouldn't be going to your past, you would be going to a new "instance" of the universe. The person whose grandfather you killed isn't you, your existence is 100% unaffected by whoever you kill in this "alternate universe".

In other words, the fact that Rinoa/Ultimecia would have tried to kill each other's past, present and future iterations doesn't mean they still can't be the same person.

The problem with the "grandfather paradox" is that you would have to impregnate your grandma to be born. The problem with Rinoa being Ultimecia is that you can't exist in a future once you kill yourself in the past. Now I suppose there could be something that happened when they went into the "time compression" thing where past/present/future were all rolled into one that maybe Rinoa could die and Ultimecia could live.

Now the real question... Why would Rinoa wanna kill herself in the past? What would be gained? This is the part that makes absolutely no sense to me, there is no reason to kill them if she is Rinoa!