Have I made a mistake or is this a massive plot hole? [spoilers]

[icesmith]

Hi guys, I recently finished FF8 and although I loved the game, something has been bugging me. It's pretty hard to explain but I'll try my best... [the following is spoilers of the ending]


So, Squall and the gang have defeated Ultimecia, woohoo! All great...right? Instead, the ending shows Squall going through many eras of time -- one of which being returning him to Edea's orphanage. Squall sees himself when he was younger, and also has a conversation with Matron who has no idea who he is.

Now this is the part I don't understand.

Ultimecia, who was just defeated, appears. Squall is shocked and says something along the lines of "You're alive?", to which Matron explains that a sorceress cannot die until their powers have been passed on and, as such, Ultimecia bestows her powers to Matron before finally 'dying'.

But doesn't that just make a massive circle?

Squall defeats Ultimecia - Ultimecia gives power to Matron in the past - Matron/Edea becomes evil, now possessed with Ultimecia's power - Squall grows up and joins SeeD - the entire game plays out until - Squall defeats Ultimecia and Ultimecia returns to the past and bestows her powers unto Matron again.

Clearly I must be missing something? So could someone please explain, otherwise I am completely at a loss. If this massive loop was in place, once Ultimecia returns back to Matron in the past and starts the whole process again, she could easily destroy Squall and the rest of the gang in the orphanage and finally go about completing her overall world-destruction plan once again!

X

 

[Soulcorruptor]

Ultimecia is not Marton in that aspect. Edea only has her powers. Ultimecia possess Edea through the use of the junction machine Dr.Odine made which we can assume is only made later in the story or is in the process of being made, as he so says himself that it's his invention that allows it. Now as far as a loop goes, considering who get's whose powers and how they are supposed to be passed down this itself could be a type of paradox.

 

[Exoskeleton]

Er that's not a plothole. I just think you're interpreting it wrong. She gave her powers to Matron who grew up with them. Matron didn't get possessed by Ultemecia until somewhere at the beginning of the game. Because Matron saw Ultimecia get defeated and saw that Squall called himself a "SEED" in the past when she got her sorcerer powers, she decided to start SEED or Garden with Cid in order to make sure the cycle of Ultimecia's defeat was kept intact(Hence garden's mission to "defeat the sorceress" or something idk it's been years >.>). It wasn't until later after the Gardens were established that she was possessed by Ultimecia. By that time her orphanage was long gone and Squall and the gang were growing up in gardens so yea...

 

[icesmith]

Er that's not a plothole. I just think you're interpreting it wrong. She gave her powers to Matron who grew up with them. Matron didn't get possessed by Ultemecia until somewhere at the beginning of the game. Because Matron saw Ultimecia get defeated and saw that Squall called himself a "SEED" in the past when she got her sorcerer powers, she decided to start SEED or Garden with Cid in order to make sure the cycle of Ultimecia's defeat was kept intact(Hence garden's mission to "defeat the sorceress" or something idk it's been years >.>). It wasn't until later after the Gardens were established that she was possessed by Ultimecia. By that time her orphanage was long gone and Squall and the gang were growing up in gardens so yea...

But if that didn't actually all happen in the past to begin with (as in Squall defeating Ultimecia and delving into the past in order to have that initial conversation with Matron), Matron would never have contemplated the idea of SeeD to begin with? Or even have become a sorceress in the first place. After Ultimecia gave Matron her powers in the past, Matron even comments saying how she is now a sorceress. If this did not actually happen in the past, Matron would never have become a sorceress due to the fact that there are no other sorceresses alive to pass on the power and, as such, the game would never have happened. And the initial possession couldn't have happened too early before the start of the game or Squall and the rest of the gang surely would have recognized Edea as Matron -- Squall was enrolled in the Garden at a very young age, and if Matron was running the garden with Cid for a considerable amount of time (say even ten years), she would have become such a familiar face in the garden that everyone would have realized that Edea was Matron?

 

[Soulcorruptor]

Adel was still alive at this point, though she was locked in space. So there was another live Sorceress to do things with. But to answer your question about Squall and them not remembering Edea as Marton, your forgetting the games "insert sarcastic tone" oh so lovely excuse of the GF's making them forget about some of their past. In this sense it was all their orphanage memories. Irvine even admits that until he meet up with them again that he had not used GF's which is why he was able to remember so much.

 

[icesmith]

Adel was still alive at this point, though she was locked in space. So there was another live Sorceress to do things with. But to answer your question about Squall and them not remembering Edea as Marton, your forgetting the games "insert sarcastic tone" oh so lovely excuse of the GF's making them forget about some of their past. In this sense it was all their orphanage memories. Irvine even admits that until he meet up with them again that he had not used GF's which is why he was able to remember so much.

But Adel was secured so heavily in space, that Odine made sure that there was no way her powers could be used, so I don't really think Adel giving Matron her initial powers is possible? Especially as her abduction/launching into space happened so suddenly, I doubt Adel would have had the chance?

And ah the classic GF/Memories...haha...that's true, but if Matron was so prominent in the Garden (as in her posession didn't occur until, say, a year or two before the game) surely people would have remembered her? Not everyone in the Garden uses GFs I'm sure...Dr Kadowaki?

 

[Shaissa]

STOP QUESTIONING SO MUCH! (joking)

But to answer your question yes some did, NORG did (if you remember he said something about it) As far as how far Matron was involved in making the Garden's and how much face time she made, that isn't really described, she could of been working on it from "behind the scenes" sorta speak. The only ones that seem to know who Matron was, were the White SeeD members and Irving.

 

[Exoskeleton]

But if that didn't actually all happen in the past to begin with (as in Squall defeating Ultimecia and delving into the past in order to have that initial conversation with Matron), Matron would never have contemplated the idea of SeeD to begin with? Or even have become a sorceress in the first place. After Ultimecia gave Matron her powers in the past, Matron even comments saying how she is now a sorceress. If this did not actually happen in the past, Matron would never have become a sorceress due to the fact that there are no other sorceresses alive to pass on the power and, as such, the game would never have happened.

Yes without Squall going back in time Matron may not have received her powers, started Garden , fallen in love with Cid, started SEED, etc. Squall's travels into the past basically start the events of the game. The theme of the game is Fate. it was his fate to go back into the past and start things up to begin with.

And the initial possession couldn't have happened too early before the start of the game or Squall and the rest of the gang surely would have recognized Edea as Matron -- Squall was enrolled in the Garden at a very young age, and if Matron was running the garden with Cid for a considerable amount of time (say even ten years), she would have become such a familiar face in the garden that everyone would have realized that Edea was Matron?

Yes Squall joined garden at an early age but that doesn't mean Matron was around that particular Garden. There are 3 Gardens in Total. She could have helped start any one of them. Also She was only known as "Matron" to the little kids, not as "Edea" And as you can see from the game and the games ending cutscene "Matron" or the unpossessed Edea has a MUCH different look from when she was possessed(It's assumed she normally wears her long hair out and wears that boring purple dress instead of the boob revealing, back contraption dress). If you think about it her name and provocative dressing came about as soon as she was possessed by Ulti. It's not a surprise that others would not recognize her, especially since the GF memory loss thing.

But Adel was secured so heavily in space, that Odine made sure that there was no way her powers could be used, so I don't really think Adel giving Matron her initial powers is possible? Especially as her abduction/launching into space happened so suddenly, I doubt Adel would have had the chance?

Adel doesn't have anything to do with giving Matron or anyone else powers. At the time Squall went back, there was a sorceress war. Squall and Ellone ended up in the Orphanage because Laguna was out fighting Adel at the time. There was no way she had anything to do with Ulti giving her powers to Matron. The war ends with her being sealed up by laguna if I recall correctly.

And ah the classic GF/Memories...haha...that's true, but if Matron was so prominent in the Garden (as in her posession didn't occur until, say, a year or two before the game) surely people would have remembered her? Not everyone in the Garden uses GFs I'm sure...Dr Kadowaki?

I don't think she was that prominent. it could have been a behind the scenes deal. She could have gone to start trabia garden, or the famous Galbadia Garden(Which I personally believe she currently ran before possession because of the Garden war of disk 2.). She seems to be more affiliated with Galbadia(Edit: Also looking at the above post Irving from Galbadia Garden knows who she is & remembers the orphanage). Either way it's VERY possible that it was a behind the scenes thing. Just look at Norg. Nobody even gives a shit about or knows who he is until the events of the game! You're thinking too much into it.

 

[Gabe]

Stupid thought, but really blows my mind:

So what if... That means the whole reason why Edea became posessed in the first place, was because Ultimecia passed on her powers to Matron in the past, after Squall defeated Ultimecia. So Squall was the one who caused it all in the first place, and he didn't even know it?

 

[Sheechiibii]

Stupid thought, but really blows my mind:

So what if... That means the whole reason why Edea became posessed in the first place, was because Ultimecia passed on her powers to Matron in the past, after Squall defeated Ultimecia. So Squall was the one who caused it all in the first place, and he didn't even know it?

Basically yes. It also means that at the end of the game there is now only one sorceress left (Rinoa) so Ulti in the future must also be the only Sorceress left (since they only pass their powers on to one person) and then she dies she leaves her powers in the past (with matron) so there will be no more sorceress' in her time so that's the end of there being any Sorceress'. So the actions in the game must have a prety big effect far in the future that we never find out about.

 

[Sanji Himura]

You all have to remember that the time compression did change certain events. (A telling change was the relationship between Laguana and Raine.) So even if Ultimecia did pass on her powers to Matron, that still doesn't imply that the events of the game will happen exactly exactly in the game. Certain events could be altered in a way that could make the need for time compression(as initiated by Squall and the crew) completely unnecessary.

 

[Exoskeleton]

You all have to remember that the time compression did change certain events. (A telling change was the relationship between Laguana and Raine.) So even if Ultimecia did pass on her powers to Matron, that still doesn't imply that the events of the game will happen exactly exactly in the game. Certain events could be altered in a way that could make the need for time compression(as initiated by Squall and the crew) completely unnecessary.

I may be forgetting something but what were the exact events that changed due to time compression. I don't remember noticing a change in Laguna and Raine's relationship after the game. Is there something I'm forgetting?

 

[Sanji Himura]

I may be forgetting something but what were the exact events that changed due to time compression. I don't remember noticing a change in Laguna and Raine's relationship after the game. Is there something I'm forgetting?

Before the game(actually covered during the second flashback sequence), you see Laguana's adventures in Windhill. What the game doesn't tell you is that Squall is born before Raine died and Laguana had to go off and fight Adel. That is how Squall and Ellone end up in Matron's care. Anyways, Raine died unmarried, and thus was buried with the name Raine Leonheart (And how Squall got his last name in a fit of rage, according to the common stories that I have heard personally).

After the game, Raine was married when she died, and thus was buried with the name, Raine Loire.

 

[Exoskeleton]

Before the game(actually covered during the second flashback sequence), you see Laguana's adventures in Windhill. What the game doesn't tell you is that Squall is born before Raine died and Laguana had to go off and fight Adel. That is how Squall and Ellone end up in Matron's care. Anyways, Raine died unmarried, and thus was buried with the name Raine Leonheart (And how Squall got his last name in a fit of rage, according to the common stories that I have heard personally).

After the game, Raine was married when she died, and thus was buried with the name, Raine Loire.

Oh I see. I always thought she just got married to Laguna before he went off to fight and that Squall changed his last name upon moving to Garden. That's a really interesting theory. Now that you mention it Ellone doesn't have a last name. I'm not gonna think to much about it though. Thanks

 

[Sheechiibii]

Before the game(actually covered during the second flashback sequence), you see Laguana's adventures in Windhill. What the game doesn't tell you is that Squall is born before Raine died and Laguana had to go off and fight Adel. That is how Squall and Ellone end up in Matron's care. Anyways, Raine died unmarried, and thus was buried with the name Raine Leonheart (And how Squall got his last name in a fit of rage, according to the common stories that I have heard personally).

After the game, Raine was married when she died, and thus was buried with the name, Raine Loire.

I'm almost certain that Laguna married Raine before he left to save Ellone and fight Adel. How do you know he didn't marry her? Squall grew up in the orphanage with Ellone (who wasn't Raine's child) and most theories I've heard assume he chose his own last name since nobody knew it.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I would have to point it out to you in walkthrough format. The information is taken from SOng's walkthrough that you can find on GameFAQs:

29. Who is Squall's father?

A: This may be a piece of spoiler [heck, anyway by typing out the FAQ, I had already spoiled the game...]. There is my evidence to support that Laguna Loire is Squall's father!

A) If you re-visit Winhill, you will found out that the photo of the family (Laguna, Raine, "Squall" and Ellone) is missing. The photo is found at Raine's House [next to the pub]

B) Laguna has probably left Squall in the hands of Edea before leaving for his journey to rescue Ellone. You had see sequences of Squall standing in the rain feeling bored and Laguna talking to Edea... (btw, this may be wrong as it is my own assumption)

C) If you talk to Ward or Kiros, you make get more information leaked out about Squall and Laguna [that's a pretty good hint by the way...]

Again, this is mere speculation, but if you can prove Squall's parentage, you can also prove the rest of the puzzle.

 

[Sheechiibii]

I would have to point it out to you in walkthrough format. The information is taken from SOng's walkthrough that you can find on GameFAQs:



Again, this is mere speculation, but if you can prove Squall's parentage, you can also prove the rest of the puzzle.

I fully believe that Laguna is squall's father. I just don't see how that means that he didn't marry Raine before he left to save Ellone...

Btw the scene with Laguna in the rain talking to Edea, that was the scene when they came to collect Ellone from the orphanage.

 

[Omegadruid]

Laguna is Squall's father. They confirmed it in Ultimania.. It is not a theory it is a fact ! Besides when Squall left the prison the Moombas started calling him LAGUNA because they can recognize people by their blood(We know this because it is stated somewhere in the game). Since Laguna is Squall's father they mistook him for Laguna.