Zero Salvation: Why humans deserve to live or die

[Dragon Mage]

In short, I've seen a lot of sentiment being thrown around in my peer group and other younger age groups that Humans Are Bastards and the world would be Eden if only it wasn't for us.

Us. The corruptors of everything we touch. The creatures utterly unable to do any good. The foul and destructive and disgusting, we epitomize them all and nothing else.

This means you and me and every cousin and every neighbor of any person that ever existed should have died the instant they breathed air. Or better yet, we shouldn't even exist at all.

I've also seen a lot of media subtly supporting such thoughts -- commercials urging us to 'go green', images of abused animals for Humane Society, footage of oil spills or lumberjacks cutting down trees. We must see these things and think "How awful! If only humans weren't here, then the world would be perfect!"

Even though, oddly enough, all of these are not necessarily evil -- lumberjacks rotate and replant forests every 50 years and it's a very controlled cutting; a freak oil spill is dutifully being cleaned up and animals being cleansed; abused animals shown on such commercials will ensure a long prison life for the criminal -- and actually encourage further contribution. But all the results of the helping and cleaning and regulation are never displayed. We're always in a state of constant on-the-edge-of-disaster collapse.

And environment is hardly the only thing. How many news stories are there about a man that raped his daughter for 14 years, or pedophiles, and murders and hate crimes and mothers drowning their children? The news is rife with it! In fact, I've not seen a single image where humans are shown as the good guys.

Which brings me to this question: Do humans deserve to live? Or should we all commit genocide on ourselves and spare the earth our taint and corrupted morals?


Some strict rules, if you please:

1) Please keep politics to a minimum. This is NOT an environmental debate -- make another thread for that if you want it, but do not start arguing about how much humans are/aren't a bad influence on the earth.

2) No insulting, flaming, implied insults, or political pushing.

3) Please be a civil as possible and take everything with a grain of salt.

4) You can quote this post if you like but I will not respond to it -- this post is merely to spark some deep thought on the matter and nothing else.

5) Religion is perfectly allowable, but please keep it to a comfortable level as not all members share the same beliefs.

Thank you.

 

[Shu]

This is kind of a hard question to be honest. I will take it as serious as I can but you will have to open your mind, and not call me a quack about it.

First off we are the biggest threat to this planet surviving because of the resources we use up and overall greediness amongst one another.

For one let me say this...

Why do we need paper now, other than for containers and such? How are we not a fully paperless world yet? I recognize there are people that make livings off of cutting down trees, and such.. but think about it. Why is there a need to over charge people for a barrel of oil?

What's the point of getting rich, if your brother is homeless, your sister is a prostitute, your dad is a drunk, and your mom is hooked on pills. We are the only species who is into this much self destruction and getting ahead that we will do anything and everything to get on top. Some lack the care to anymore, but who really wants to be living in a one bed room apartment and single working night shifts all their life.

We are the only generation in which falls back on their psychological disorders and call them disabilities rather than trying to work past them and help others who have them.

The media shows everything as negative usually. It's the way they are. That's the only way to make money, either instilling fear in people, or trying to make people spend their dime, or making them feel bad about foreign countries who are that far off, so they can be self righteous and give a penny, when they should be looking to better those around them.

We don't all think alike granted, but we are all the same at the core. We want the essentials. We want someone who we can love and will love us till the day we die, a significant other per se. We want a family who will not be hindered in school due to our screwed up society. We want to be able to go on nice vacations, and see the world. We want to live life to the fullest with as many new folks as we can.. We want to not have to worry about bills every single day of our life, or be hindered by debt. We want what's best for those around us.

Do I think our species needs to go? No. I believe we have a chance to make an impact on our kind, there are quite a bit of good people in the world, it's just hard to find these needles in haystacks. Though in order to identify with these people, we need to understand what selfless pride is. Taking pride in what you do for others, instead of yourself.

The need to want to better the world. Not sit back and smoke a cigarette and watch it go up in flames. The apathy that we has been born in this world has made me overall concerned, and writing this I sound like an overly passionate person, but in all honesty, I'm tired of hanging my head day by day of all the shittiness we as people have done to one another. I'm tired of people who don't act, who just sit back and point the fingers, when they should be pointing it at the own heart.

I spoke to a tatoo'er yesterday who did an image on my leg. He said " I literally wait for the time I can get home and get high as hell of pot, so I can have my piece of mind... that's all I'm living for right now" - this bud has a kid and a wife. I was ripped to shreads by this.. but at least he doesn't hurt anyone.. I looked at my life and just said. "fawk".

I know many people who are on this forums, sit on here all day because the want to belong. Whereas the real world is to harsh sometimes, and the need to unwind on here is the only way to live your life. What if we all knew eachother in person? Would it be different ?

I think there is too much good in us humans actually for people to see. I'm willing to try for this generation. I choose not to give up on us, because I fear for my future kid. I fear for what he/she has to grow up in. I fear for this world.. not in a religious way. I fear for it, because we are seeing a new low in our economy. I see the dog eat dog every day.. I feel the heartless world in which people have hidden agendas. I assume people are looking for their reasons to live, but at the cost of what? We can only hope things get better, but I wouldn't say we need to kill each other.

I do believe of getting rid of government structures.. but hey, that's another lesson, another day.

 

[Valvalis]

I don't think humans are a lost cause, I just think a lot of people's priorities are a little out of whack, and this has led to many of the problems we have today. And it is largely the media's fault, but there's also a certain lack of responsibility in listening to the media when there's no law saying you have to. Really, if there were some way to make the right things cool, we'd be all set, but it's hard when people come from so many different interest groups.

The main issue that bugs me--and this might sound weird--is that people seem to place too much concern on future generations and not enough on our own. People keep having large amounts of children, and saying that they hope "going green" will help these children live happier lives and all and that they want them to inherit a nice planet--but what about the billions of people who are already here, right now? Do we not matter? Is the purpose of human existence merely to clear a path ahead for the people coming after us?

I really don't like this idea. I think despite the way it sounds, it allows people to slack off in all the wrong areas, as they sit there hoping their children's lives will be happier than their own and that everything will eventually work out. One good example is something I like to rant about quite a lot--renewable energy. I had a little involvement trying to petition the government to keep windfarms out of somewhere beautiful a few years ago because everything I'd read about the ones they were using said they only supplied about 6% or less of the necessary load in a community. And they were ready and willing to tear up a place unlike any other in the world to put up hundreds of these monolithic things, and pour millions of dollars into constructing them, rather than trying to research better ways first and find something that supplies 100%. Sure, it might take a little longer to get them running, but that just means we should get our butts in gear and figure it out faster, right? I mean, seriously--they pay millions of dollars to professional athletes to run across a field playing with a ball, but we still don't have any 100% effective forms of renewable energy? What happens when there's not enough energy left for TVs and people can't watch sports anymore?

Another good one is scientific research. I guarantee, with all the money that goes into the medical field, that researchers have made far more advancements than they let on about, but they stagger everything so that companies can make money on all the baby steps in between point A and point B. At least ten years ago I read an article somewhere about a student in Norway (I think?) finding something in breast milk that kills cancer cells, and pretty consistently at that. I'm not a scientist so I certainly don't know all the details, but if this is true, then why haven't they made a miracle cure from it yet? Why are so many people still dying of cancer if we can kill cancer cells? The medical companies/researchers like to promise that "in the future, we will be able to do xyz to help people, or make certain things more affordable etc". But what about the people who are here right now? Why can't they be made healthier? Why can't these companies/researchers get their butts in gear? Goodness knows they make a crapload more money than oceanographers and archaeologists, and those guys discover new stuff pretty much every day. I know it's not the same thing, but still...

Anyway, it's about 3 o'clock in the morning so I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I just wanted to put in my two GP.

 

[Dionysos]

I don’t believe we shouldn’t have been born and all should die at all. We’re animals and therefore we reproduce and here we are. The planet needs to get used to that as that is the law of nature.

What is unnatural (or is it? Since we evolved the capabilities) is the ability to have high levels of communication, advanced tools and with that civilisation. From then on mankind has rocketed through many stages and now our world is very different from how it was 10,000 or so years ago. We’re no longer walking around naked in the wild and fighting off competition for a mate. You could say that civilisation is unnatural, and we are not fully adapted to the civilisation lifestyle yet as it is so young.

We’re an odd species as we have eaten the fruit (so to speak) and are more aware of things to an extent that animals (as far as we know ) are. We have developed an understanding of our world and attempt to explain everything in it.

Yes there is a lot of bad. People kill and rape and steal... But if you think of it this way, don't animals do this from time to time? The difference is that we are intelligent enough to know consequences, legal and emotional, and we understand and can show sympathy and guilt for different situations. A lot of people are self centred, and it is a shame, but this life we created is a struggle and we're constantly trying to figure it out and perfect it even today. Like I said before, we've evolved this ability but we are not yet fully adapted to civilisation. Our bodies from time to time very much want us to be running around naked in the woods eating and fornicating and free from everything, to return to Eden (again, so to speak) and be once again an animal. We're simply a species of a kind that hasn't happened before, and therefore make mistakes.

Does that mean we should die? Probably not. At the end of it all we are still animals. We just evolved in a way which enabled us to discover means to create civilisations over time, and with it the means to invent all sorts.

I don’t hate anyone. I have no respect for myself at the moment, but I don’t hate anyone, and I am able to accept that people make mistakes and how incredibly easy it is to mess up a life. Even people that appear bad have good in them (most of the time), and have sad reasons for being the way that they are. It would feel rude of me to say to someone (or even to think it) "you are a bad person and deserve to die!", as what right have I to label this person as bad? The person could have lived an honest and happy life up until a point and then his life might have crashed around him, everything might have gone wrong, things would be messing with his head.

Each and every one of us is scared of what we may become if the wrong things happen, and this is perhaps one of the main reasons that people cling to their wealth, or ignore homeless people, or laugh at the mentally unstable and physically impaired. I can't blame people for being like this, though I do not like it, but I'd hope that we iron this problem out.


We are capable of good. We have destroyed species, yes, but we are also the only species that can dedicate itself to preserving species that are dying out as well. Species have died out in the past on account of other species (not human) and that was the end of it, they were gone. We have the ability to notice our mistakes and act on them. Throughout history we often have felt guilt and that we cause a lot of problems for the environment, and this is something that animals do not do. Animals would just eat and kill and not get depressed at the consequences, but are rewarded with food.

As for the news, and for reporting and recording events in general. They tend to focus on the bizarre and horrific events as they are more likely to capture the eye and imagination. It’s often the same in recorded history as well, though that has its fair share of good events too, they are just not as common as the bad ones or evil ones. Normal or everyday events are seldom portrayed. We’re a species that likes to tell bad stories perhaps as a moral from which we only hope, but never do, learn from.


So overall... We're in a pickle as we are very new to this game. Once we perfect ourselves we can earn the right to feel as if we deserve to live. We sometimes feel as if we do not as we have the mental capabilities to notice consequences and the world around us at a level that animals do not, and hence our eyes are opened to all the wrong that animals do, wrongs that are magnified by humankind's technology and civilisation.

 

[blakstang98]

I see a lot of good and long responses. And even though I'm an advocate of long, essay-like posts, I'll keep it short and sweet.

We can live like cavemen and have the bare minimum for living. The advancement of humans over time is just astounding. We are the only species on the planet capable of creating such an environment. But of course, with the great advancements comes the great threats of those who want to make a negative impact. A chainsaw is intended to use for cutting down trees, but someone with an anger issue with use it on another human being. Unfortunately, with any great invention, comes the consequence of putting it to amoral and improper use.

Now here's the issue with the media. They only focus on the bad things that humans do. Drama makes people watch closely at what may happen next. If the media put a larger focus on what good things humans have done, our opinions of the human race wouldn't be as bad. There is plenty of bad things happening around the planet these days, and with 95% of the focus on that, how can we believe humans are good? We have progressed so far in time, and we will continue to progress further. Who knows, maybe the next great things to come will have much more positive than negative effect.

I'll use a typical, cliche saying, "we are not perfect". That's the only thing I need to know to continue having a positive outlook on the human race. We all have some thoughts that are not good to others, and there are plenty of people that only think bad things in the world, but you can't expect for humans to be perfect. There will always be bad things associated with humans, and the same goes for every other form of living species on the planet. I don't think we or any other living form deserves to die meaninglessly. But this I do know, if there is a species on this planet that can fix and correct most of the problems, it's humans. The planet needs us to live. So should we die to pay for our sins created on Earth? Absolutely not, we will rectify it! Another cliche saying, "an error becomes a mistake, only if you let it".

 

[Dragon Mage]

Just a few things:

Technology grows amazingly fast. But 100% efficient fuels is ONLY seen in antimatter. That's the only 100% efficient energy source we even know of. As for the technology jumps, Gamingway, yes, technology DOES grow and advance rapidly, but I hold some doubts on your claim that companies are withholding it just to make money. Again, the antimatter is a perfect example -- we can now make 100% efficient source of energy! Okay, great! Now how the hell do we apply it? There is a significant gap between discovering something and actually creating a way that it can be utilized on a large scale.

And Shu, you have some interesting points, but I would urge you to consider what blakstang here has said. We most definitely take a role in helping the environment all the time. Of course, I'm speaking from an American viewpoint, I know that not every country has the EPA to keep track of things. But I know that people do NOT want the world to go up in flames.

Argor251: I would debate on civilization being 'unnatural'. Every species out there has it's own form of civilization -- courting rituals of the Blue Bower bird, pack mentality and rank of wolves, the socialization among elephants; These are all civilizations and cultures in their own respect. Ours just happens to not be able to cross-communicate with animals, similar to how a wolf wouldn't be able to cross-communicate with a whale. The structure of how animals communicate and interact with each other is all that civilization is.

blakstan: I agree 100% :3


So the majority of belief so far is that humans are evil and corrupted, yes, but could change but won't. So is there, at all, any redeeming quality of humanity? Or are we just destructive animals that have eliminated all the competition? In short:

What would be so tragic about the loss of all humanity? Wouldn't the world just go on, oblivious? Or would it not be tragic at all?

 

[Dionysos]

Argor251: I would debate on civilization being 'unnatural'. Every species out there has it's own form of civilization -- courting rituals of the Blue Bower bird, pack mentality and rank of wolves, the socialization among elephants; These are all civilizations and cultures in their own respect. Ours just happens to not be able to cross-communicate with animals, similar to how a wolf wouldn't be able to cross-communicate with a whale. The structure of how animals communicate and interact with each other is all that civilization is.

What I meant by this was our ability to settle in one place, farm, and combined with our ability to build complex structures, eventually enabling villages, towns and cities. Animals form social groups but cannot build cities. They might make little structures out of twig, or burrow holes in the ground, but never anything very complex when compared to what we have.

I agree though it probably isn't unnatural that we developed to do this, as otherwise why would we? We're just an advanced case. Good communicators and intelligence combined with bodies that are able to be put to use to build and make things happen.

What would be so tragic about the loss of all humanity? Wouldn't the world just go on, oblivious? Or would it not be tragic at all?

The world will probably just go on, but like Dan II said if any species can fix things then it is us. We're the only species at the moment that has the capability and the knowledge to examine what is going wrong and fix things in the world. We may be wrong with a lot of things, and mistakes are made, but we're making an attempt.

So if we die? Maybe we're just the first of a kind so it wouldn't matter... For example flight developed seperately and in different periods of time for a variety of creatures; insects, pterosaurs, raptors-to-birds and then bats.

Perhaps if we die then over a couple of millions of years another creature will emerge that has advanced communication, an anatomy that enables it to build structures, and the intelligence and creativity to do so.

So if we die there might yet be hope, millions of years in the future. If not, then all the creatures of the earth will vanish when the earth inevitably perishes. If we are around, or another species that works similarly, we might be able to figure out a way to avoid it / find an alternate home, which is something that Jeffrey the Cat from down the road could not accomplish (unless Red Dwarf is correct and a race of cat-humanoids evolve in the future).

 

[Shu]

I think the thing is .. do you care if we live or if the world goes on without us?

It's like .. what if you died, and no one else did.. would you care if everyone died in the near distant future after your death (say a year or so)?

Main question being do you really care about humanity or do you just want to see as much as you can in this life as you can?

It all comes back to perfect Utopias and what not. Is it possible to have a utopia and fix everything.. in my opinion No. Does that mean our species is doomed.. not in my opinion.

We don't know what its like to be without, due to our previous generations doing all the hard work to get us to the point where we are at now. What if your internet was stripped, your cell phone was stripped, your electricity was stripped, your gasoline and oil was stripped from you. The drinking water was no longer pure, and the only way to get it was to move to a river and harvest it yourself.

The fact of the matter is.. I believe our species is mostly spoiled. We have all the resources we need, yet we demand more. We want it all, we don't just want what we need. We want the quick easy money, but the cost of it could be a loved one. It's like those who sue folks and making millions due to their loved one being hit by a car.

I feel though that this economy will slip further and further.. and this will be when true heroes will get back their "A Game" and finally some good leaders will get back on their feet. So that's why I'm not truly giving up on folks.

What's the difference between you and me? You decide.

 

[GBJoker]

It doesn't matter whether we should live or die, we're all here already, might as well get used to it.

as for the notion that this is the most "dog eat dog" generation or similar remarks, that is simply not the case. Humans have been killing, raping, and pillaging each other for the past 5000 years. Once we perfect space travel and can terra-form Mars, Venus, the asteroid belts, and various moons... We'll still be "dog eat dog" and still kill each other and rape each other and pillage each other.

As for seeing the world while you're alive and enjoying it? Psh, before airplanes, 90% of the human population never went more than 20-30 miles away from their place of birth.

Going "green"? That'll happen when oil and coal dry up, easily. Well, not easily for the common folk; it'll be expensive as hell for them.

Why does oil cost so much? Actually, rephrase... Why does any random resource cost so much? Supply and demand. Besides... Why harvest all my resources and make (hypothetically) 100 million dollars now, when I can slow down and control the out-put in order to make 10 million dollars every year for the next 20+? Oh, and by the way, the real cost of oil (since it was the original example) for Americans is approximately 10.55 a gallon. (Average across the US, obviously cheaper in Louisiana, Missouri, more expensive in Cali, Hawaii.) Subsidies for the win.

Humans destroying the environment, and specific species in general? Psh, humans are directly related to the extinction of far, FAR less than 1% of the species to have ever lived on this planet. If you only look at the past 10 million years, again... FAR less than 1%.

As for X% fuel efficiency? As Dragon Mage has stated, 100% perfect conversion to energy only occurs when matter collides with anti-matter. For comparisons, if you found the pure anti-matter equivalent of that pen on your desk and banged them together, you'd easily remove earth from existence. A standard car, using unleaded gasoline and battery to operate, virtually no matter what it's gas mileage is, comes out to roughly, I believe it was 0.5ish %. A hydrogen bomb, which converts more matter to pure energy than anything ever before that humans have built, only converts into just over 7%. Nuclear power plants are at roughly 2-3ish %. Coal power plants are at a nice powerful 4ish %.

Now to present new-ish ideas... Humans aren't supposed to live to the ripe old age of 70. Sure, we can eventually reach the point of curing cancer, and other diseases, but there'll always be new ones; not to mention all the diseases that have come into existence because of the sole reason that we are living longer than we used to. On another note, we've already eliminated roughly, what... 30-50% of the diseases humans were prone to encounter. The only big ones left are cancer in Western and Asian areas, with malaria, yellow fever and a few others in Africa. I'm sure that within a few generations we might (MIGHT) be able to get rid of the crap in Africa, and then they'll have to worry about cancer and Alzheimers, etc.

Also, quite frankly, why should we care about global... climate? warming... change... ness? First off, there's sufficient evidence that humans are not directly responsible for hardly any of it. Second, the planet seems to have a great ability to fix itself, but whether us pitiful humans survive mother nature's wrath is debatable, and really not worth mentioning, considering that another species would replace us any ways.


No, humans shouldn't commit a mass suicide, genocide, whatever. At the same time, it's been said repeatedly the past 20 odd years that there are indeed, simply too many people living on the planet.

 

[der Astronom]

I think this is only a problem because the news likes to pick stories that make people scared--which includes humans doing things less than pleasant. They are over exaggerations, of course, because people usually aren't interested in hearing about good things happen; it's boring, and there's no conflict happening. The other problem is that there are good and bad people, and also ignorant people. Some people do evil things on purpose; and others try to fix these problems. And still others do "bad" things because they are unaware that they are causing harm.

And as for whether or not we should have died, we're all going to die eventually anyways. Maybe you killed some animals before they should have died normally, or maybe you rescued them; in the long run, it makes no difference. All organisms eventually end up at death. Whether or not we deserve to live is not determined by any singular entity or collectively by others. The only person who can decide whether or not you live or die is yourself--this is an unalienable right that we are all entitled to.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

Humans are bastards, there is no use denying it. In some ways, I'm a bastard, you're a bastard, and Dolly Parton is a bastard. We all make mistakes, we all use people, we all do things wrong. We lie, we cheat, we steal. All of these things are part of living, though.

I mean, we also plant trees, invite animals into our homes, help others, and try our very best to do what we think is right. We have bad sides and we do things wrong, but I
don't think we deserve death for it. We just need to sit down and talk things out. We need to look past gain and see what we are doing to the world, and to each other.

And we need to change. Things like Rape, and murder, they don't happen nearly as often as we think they do. The news blows things out of proportion, people make things up, and we all eat it up. We love to watch other people fall, it makes us feel better. That's why we need a culture made up of things like this, so that we feel safe.

And the environment is such a fickle thing that it would have gone to hell without us. Something that is balanced on a knife has to fall eventually. We may have sped it along but it was coming one way or another. And I think Going Green is just another way to make ourselves feel better.

We will destroy ourselves or we will recreate ourselves. One way or another, I think the end is on its way. One day something will happen that will decide. The only question left is what side will you be on?

 

[LeafHouse]

What?

I think if we all agreed to commit 'genocide' (it would be mass suicide, for the record, genocide is only if a particular ethnic or racial group is being killed) it would disrupt the ecosystem in a pretty big way. I'm thinking that would be the biggest dick move ever to mother earth - a hell of a way of saying sorry. Is this even a question?

Human beings are intelligent, rational creatures - we are born with a right to live, and at least in America, to liberty and to the pursuit of happiness. So what if there are a few bad people in the bunch who hurt others, or if our society at large inadvertently brings about the next ice age?

 

[Valvalis]

Technology grows amazingly fast. But 100% efficient fuels is ONLY seen in antimatter. That's the only 100% efficient energy source we even know of.

Again, the antimatter is a perfect example -- we can now make 100% efficient source of energy! Okay, great! Now how the hell do we apply it? There is a significant gap between discovering something and actually creating a way that it can be utilized on a large scale.

I was thinking more in terms of scrapping many of the socioeconomic systems we have in place now and rebuilding them using more common sense, in order to maximize human potential. If all professions and financial resources were divided between managing human survival necessities and researching ways to curb environmental destruction--no multimillon-dollar athletes, no private politician yachts, no TV Guide channel shows where people are paid to watch the Oscars and talk about what people wore-- I think these technologies could be developed much more rapidly. With that much more of the population doing research, the amount of new ideas being poured into the planning pool would be astronomical. And once the earth had been restored to a state of unwavering sustainability, everyone could work on developing ways to revert to the comforts of our current society without doing the massive amounts of damage to the planet that we are now. Obviously this is a lot to ask and it's a very hypothetical situation; I myself would be reluctant to give up a lot of things, knowing the earth *might* still be okay for the rest of my lifetime. However, in terms of fundamental practicality...well, look at it this way: in an indigenous tribal community, if a drought or food shortage occurs, everyone pitches in to help find more sustenance. They don't just allocate the responsibility to a select few people while the rest of the tribe plays, relaxes, and hopes that everything will work out okay.

Oh, also--

As for the technology jumps, Gamingway, yes, technology DOES grow and advance rapidly, but I hold some doubts on your claim that companies are withholding it just to make money.

I'm not saying with certainty that all medical companies do this; however if I can think of it then I'm sure it's crossed the minds of several CEOs. And honestly, it's difficult to see them as charitable philanthropists when if I hadn't had insurance recently I would've paid $5200 for one five-minute catscan. Really, we can trace this all back to whoever sets the prices for medical equipment and technology, and I guarantee they're not going to allow themselves the least possible profit if they can get away with charging more. There's a dire need for a third party to step in here for more sincere regulation of such things, but my hopes are not particularly high at the moment. But that's another story.