The new look

[Sepalcure]

I agree, but what if subversive factors make it harder for someone belonging of an ethic minority to do so than a caucasian?



Again I agree. But I had never delivered my post as an excuse, only as background information on the discussion.



But what about the black man who can only go so far because of rascism ingrained in American society because of segregation? What do you say to him? Try harder?

I'm not saying it's bound to happen, nor am I saying all black American families are born to poverty, but what of those that are? Do we ignore them?



But what I'm trying to say is that some people feel it's an injustice that there are black people being born in inferior living situations as a direct result of things that happened years ago.

I want to make sure that I get this you know clear. Um, so my grandfather's mother and father were the kin of parents that were direct descendants of slaves. I'll refrain from using outright sarcasm because this is funny to me. So, logically, if I'm correct in my understanding of your "black people being born in inferior conditions directly because of racism" type theory, then this should mean that my generation should be financially inept. We should not be living comfortably under a nice roof because my grandfather's father and then his father lived under the hand of a 'massa' and 'missus' in their lifetimes. But you see, if you were quick to determine that then you'd fail to note that, my grandfather, like, I'm certain so many well to do black folk nowadays, decided to get an education and fight tooth and nail to get into a prestigious school funded for black people.

He got a job. Ended up, during the 60's and 70's securing a position as a manager, overseeing five branches of his company that manufactured (and still does) bauxite which is a very valuable mineral. Right, which leads me to my point. Not every black person is living in inferior conditions today because of a direct result of racism. They're living in inferior conditions today, at this hour, minute, second, nanosecond, for the very same reason that a Japanese family, German family, British family, Indian family, Chinese, South-African, Thai, etc. whatever family is, and that, is simply because of a cause and effect theory.

As I stated before, they could be poor because of their family's poor choices when it came to the distribution of funds for clothing, food, home maintenance, schooling, etc. Their father could have been an alcoholic, could've spent a good portion of his salaries on booze. The effect? His children are now dirt poor and have been kicked out of the school system and his family are now living day to day through welfare. Another scenario is that a Japanese businessman or maybe he/she's a school teacher could've lost their job, maybe their company lost a dramatic amount in revenue. Maybe they were sent home with a nice fat check and a briefcase and a curt nod and that was all. Maybe they decided to live handsomely off this only to realize that after say, oh, three years or whatever, they spent it all, and because they haven't worked for so long, they've lost the motivation to do so. Effect? Eventually they lose their house and have to move back in with dear old mom and dad who are not happy.

The point? All of these scenarios have a commonality, their reasons for being broke either had to do with their poor choices or had to do with something outside of their control that had NOTHING to do with something that happened about 100 plus years ago.

I'm sorry, but I have to put this bluntly, saying that like, a black man, has a lesser chance of getting a job than a white man living in the suburbs, shows how much you know about the state of this country in terms of integration. We are not living in the 1950s anymore. Anyone in this thread will be quick to tell you that. So, a black man is very much capable of getting the same job as a white man, it's dependent on his intelligence, how he applies this, his social skills, his ability to problem solve, to deal with issues, and handle them professionally and efficiently without upsetting his customers/clientele/coworkers/etc.

If he doesn't get the job and it's handed over to Mr. John Doe from Jesus of Suburbia Town, it's probably because he missed out on one or two of those pivotal components. However, do some companies tend to be a little "racist"? Yes. They have some racist people in these companies who are ignorant, who only know what they have been taught by generations of ignorant like-minded people, who spew out obviously false statements about racial groups that they detest as if they were fact. That's all they know, can you blame them, for that being all they know?

I'm not even going to respond to your "what about the black man . . ." question because that black man does not exist in the 21st Century. I'm going to bring up Obama because regardless of what any Republican or Liberal or Independent thinks about his governing policies, he's a President. More importantly, he's the first fucking black president in our country. Excuse my French. He is the epitome in my eyes and in the eyes of every humbled, dreamy-eyed, ambitious black girl and boy like myself, of hope, of "yes we can". So, when he won that presidential election last year, when he trail blazed through the independent and formerly Republican-dominant Caucasus, when he went from a virtually little known lawyer from downtown Chicago to "oh yeah, that guy who rules over the whole entire freaking nation", it became a pretty big deal for EVERYONE.

Now Hispanics also feel a bit empowered too because hell, they're minorities, and look, a minority is president after 100 plus years of having white forefather and tons of white presidents and white senators and white this and white that. You get the deal. So we can do anything. We can fly to the moon, we can laugh in your face, we can become astronauts, pilots, presidents (hell, did I mention that we have one? 'Cause we do. Right now.), lawyers, judges (Sojourner Truth Sonia Sotomayor anyone?), principals (got a black female principal at my school, I'm sure some nameless black man or woman in some nameless town in some State had to fight his/her ass to become the first principal). See, when you become the 'first' of something, then you open up a gateway for other people, regardless of color really, and I mean this if you're a minority, to get a shot; to get a chance at seizing this opportunity too.

So what were you saying about black people being poor because it traces back to them being owned by now long since deceased slave masters, even though like, slavery's been abolished for the past . . . oh I dunno 300 years maybe. Yeah, probably.

 

[Abstract Debauchery]

I'm white, I'm certainly not trying to keep black people down.

Also, I looked this shit up years ago. The Ringo family was very poor. They owned a small, (I've seen it, I stress SMALL) farm that could be ran by two people. It was run by my great, great, great, great, great Grandfather alone. It was enough to put food on their table, and they sold the little leftovers to people, and made just enough to get by. Meaning, they owned no slaves.

So, am I exempt from this hate? I grew up in a shitty neighborhood too. Is the white man keeping me down as well? AM I KEEPING MYSELF DOWN?!

In all seriousness, the Black Panthers were a great group around the civil rights time. However, now, they're redundant. It really seems that they're now just relying on a giant "white people are taking over" conspiracy. Maybe they should look up the ways population is changing. White people are slowing becoming the new minority.

HOLY SHIT, THE BLACK MAN IS GOING TO KEEP ME DOWN!

Just kidding. I really couldn't care less.

 

[Harlequin]

First off, my apologies. That statement that I quoted was actually a question and I labeled it as a statement, so I'm sorry about that.

No worries.

But I'll say that you are implying what I stated. I came to this implication by the statements above and many others you've made throughout the thread.

I was. As much as I don't sympathise for the man who sits on his arse complaining, I feel terribly for the man who tries and is held down by factors beyond his control.

You seem to believe that racial segregation exists in the United States.

Not in the way that it was in the 50s.

Simply what I was saying is that such segregation doesn't exist. Individuals may be racist, sure, but certainly not society as a whole.

But the insecurities remain. The majority of people have no qualms with something until that something begins to happen. I'm not saying this is true with everyone, but a white man may see a black man as his equal, but when his daughter begins to date a black man, it sparks a deeper reaction. I've seen people who have no major issue with black people yet when the integration is too close to home, dispositions change.

If anything, minorites, not just black people, have been taken care of by our country.

I believe that, but I also believe there's a guilt complex there, much like that of Britain. The USA took the black man from his homeland and put him to work on a plantation, then when these injustices were rectified their community was still hugely stunted by poverty and crime. That's the repercussion I'm refering to.

It's not "if a black person is born poor, it's rascism."
It's more like, "numerous black families are born poor as a direct consequence of rascism."

After the years of segregation, the black community were given the scraps.

Opportunities are more abundant for minorities as well because law dictates it. Sure, there are minorities in inferior living conditions, but there are plenty who manage to work their way out of it. A black man would never be held down because American society forces it, it would be because he never tried to make his way up.

Perhaps, but what about deep seated corruption? It's a very romantic view you have of America, but the inconvenient truth is the US and Europe used whatever means possible to oppress those they saw as a threat. They done it consistently throughout history, I would say it's heavily embedded in the culture.

I'll edit in my response to sneakerpimp

MOD EDIT: Merged posts and removed sneakerpimp's post. Just tidying up, carry on.

There you go xD

So, logically, if I'm correct in my understanding of your "black people being born in inferior conditions directly because of racism" type theory, then this should mean that my generation should be financially inept. We should not be living comfortably under a nice roof because my grandfather's father and then his father lived under the hand of a 'massa' and 'missus' in their lifetimes.

I didn't say black people were financially inept nor unable to break out of the situation I described, I said black people didn't get as fair a start post-segregation as the white man did in terms of finance, community and sometimes education.

But you see, if you were quick to determine that then you'd fail to note that, my grandfather, like, I'm certain so many well to do black folk nowadays, decided to get an education and fight tooth and nail to get into a prestigious school funded for black people.

I hadn't said he would be resigned to his standard of living, only that it was unfair he would have to fight slightly harder than the white man.

Not every black person is living in inferior conditions today because of a direct result of racism.

I agree. But the effects are still felt by some. From what I've seen of American society, the black man born unto poverty has to live in a society built on the faultlines of rascism. I'm saying it's no coincidence that the majority of convicts in America are black, that the education is poorer in black communities and that there is a gun/liquor store on every corner. This community was broken by segregation and still remains so today.

The point? All of these scenarios have a commonality, their reasons for being broke either had to do with their poor choices or had to do with something outside of their control that had NOTHING to do with something that happened about 100 plus years ago.

Hispanic/Japanese/etc Americans migrated and accepted the living conditions. The majority of black Americans were forced migrants and had no choice but to accept the broken community given to them by the US.

Again, I'm not using this as an excuse, only background information as to why the Black Panther's could feel such deep animosity.

I'm sorry, but I have this bluntly, saying that like, a black man, has a lesser chance of getting a job than a white man living in the suburbs, shows how much you know about the state of this country in terms of integration.

Fair enough. I wouldn't know. I only perceived that to be the case. But can you really account for your fellow American when you say that's not the way things are?

So, a black man is very much capable of getting the same job as a white man, it's dependent on his intelligence, how he applies this, his social skills, his ability to problem solve, to deal with issues, and handle them professionally and efficiently without upsetting his customers/clientele/coworkers/etc.

I agree. It should be about that. But it may also be about his colour. I'm not saying America is rascist, but give that same criteria to someone who feels they have been a victim of prejudice in the United States and he'll probably call you a liar out of rage.

However, do some companies tend to be a little "racist" yes. They have some racist people in it who are ignorant, who only know what has been taught to them by generations of ignorant like-minded people, who spew out obviously false statements about racial groups that they detest as if they were fact. That's all they know, can you blame them, for that being all they know?

I didn't say the policy was the same as what was actually being carried out. I always refered to the individuals who worked the process, not the institution.

I'm not even going to respond to your "what about the black man . . ." question because that black man does not exist in the 21st Century.

I didn't say it couldn't happen, I don't believe that America is against the black man and they're trying to keep him down, but the Black Panthers believe that the black man continues to be oppressed, I'm only trying to see why rather than branding them lunatics.

I'm going to bring up Obama because regardless of what any Republican or Liberal or Independent thinks about his governing policies, he's a President. More importantly, he's the first fucking black president in our country. Excuse my French. He is the epitome in my eyes and in the eyes of every humbled, dreamy-eyed, ambitious black girl like me, of hope, of "yes we can". So, when he won that presidential election last year, when trailblazed through the independent and formerly Republican-dominant Caucasus, when he went from a virtually little known lawyer from downtown Chicago to "oh yeah, that guy who rules over the whole entire freaking nation", it became a pretty big deal for EVERYONE.

But that doesn't mean rascism isn't still a problem in your society. There's always the chance huge swathes of white America voted for him because of guilt complexes I discribed earlier in the thread.

I'm not putting that out there as fact, only as food for thought.

Now Hispanics also feel a bit empowered too because hell, they're minorities, and look, a minority is president after 100 plus years of having white forefather and tons of white presidents and white senators and white this and white that. You get the deal. So we can do anything. We can fly to the moon, we can laugh in your face, we can become astronauts, pilots, presidents (hell, did I mention that we have one? 'Cause we do. Right now.), laywers, judges (Sojourner Truth anyone?), principals (got a black female principal at my school, I'm sure some nameless black man or woman in some nameless town in some State had to fight his/her ass to become the first principal). See, when you become the 'first' of something, then you open up a gateway for other people, regardless of color really, and I mean this if you're a minority, to get a shot; to get a chance at seizing this opportunity too.

I know. The man in my avatar was one of the most important people in that respect.

So what were you saying about black people being poor because it traces back to them being owned by now long since deceased slave masters, even though like, slavery's been abolished for the past . . . oh I dunno 300 years maybe. Yeah, probably.

No no no, I never said the black man is poor.

I said that rascism had a much more profound effect on their society than anyone in this thread is willingly to entertain.

 

[CassinoChips]

Tell me you're kidding?

Considering what Europeans have done to Native Americans, Indians, Africans, and everybody else they've "peaceably" come into contact with, no I'm not kidding.

What about the thousand of years jews and Egyptians were slaves? Or the Native Americans and how they were slaves to Spain. Do they get to say that they should kill people they want, starting with the babies? No of course not.

Say it? In the U.S.? They certainly can. If they act on it, that's when I have a problem. I will disagree with what they say, but they're free to espouse their opinion.

There is NO defending this pathetic group of bullies.

Not defending them. I'm saying I can see where they are coming from.

The first statement is completely false. Anyone who works hard, can make it somewhere in life. To think that a more well-to-do white man has more opportunity is wrong. If a person in a bad situation gives up and chooses to live the way they do, then that's what they chose, it has nothing to do with racism holding them down. Nothing in life is earned easily, regardless of color.

Ah yes. The American myth. I would agree that race has much less to do with it than it used to. A black child born into wealth has more opportunity for advancement than a white child born into poverty. But money still drives this country, and it's not what you know, but who know. So if you know more people in higher positions, you have more opportunity to succeed. Unfortunately, with the disproportionate amount of black Americans that live in poverty, there is still a distinct gap of achievement between black Americans and white Americans. Race is a mitigating factor, as the cycle of poverty is just that... cyclical... and black Americans have yet to fully shake off the centuries of slavery. But the root cause is socioeconomic status differences.

 

[Sepalcure]

There you go xD



I didn't say black people were financially inept nor unable to break out of the situation I described, I said black people didn't get as fair a start post-segregation as the white man did in terms of finance, community and sometimes education.



I hadn't said he would be resigned to his standard of living, only that it was unfair he would have to fight slightly harder than the white man.



I agree. But the effects are still felt by some. From what I've seen of American society, the black man born unto poverty has to live in a society built on the faultlines of rascism. I'm saying it's no coincidence that the majority of convicts in America are black, that the education is poorer in black communities and that there is a gun/liquor store on every corner. This community was broken by segregation and still remains so today.



Hispanic/Japanese/etc Americans migrated and accepted the living conditions. The majority of black Americans were forced migrants and had no choice but to accept the broken community given to them by the US.

Again, I'm not using this as an excuse, only background information as to why the Black Panther's could feel such deep animosity.



Fair enough. I wouldn't know. I only perceived that to be the case. But can you really account for your fellow American when you say that's not the way things are?



I agree. It should be about that. But it may also be about his colour. I'm not saying America is rascist, but give that same criteria to someone who feels they have been a victim of prejudice in the United States and he'll probably call you a liar out of rage.



I didn't say the policy was the same as what was actually being carried out. I always refered to the individuals who worked the process, not the institution.



I didn't say it couldn't happen, I don't believe that America is against the black man and they're trying to keep him down, but the Black Panthers believe that the black man continues to be oppressed, I'm only trying to see why rather than branding them lunatics.



But that doesn't mean rascism isn't still a problem in your society. There's always the chance huge swathes of white America voted for him because of guilt complexes I discribed earlier in the thread.

I'm not putting that out there as fact, only as food for thought.



I know. The man in my avatar was one of the most important people in that respect.



No no no, I never said the black man is poor.

I said that rascism had a much more profound effect on their society than anyone in this thread is willingly to entertain.

Alright, I'll tackle your argument piece by piece then.

1. This is true, we weren't blessed with a so called "easy way out" but then again neither were the members of the Latin community, members of the Afro-Caribbean community, Koreans, Chinese, Indians, etc. At some point, every minority had to carve their niche into society and fight to live comfortably in America. No immigrant comes here automatically living a privileged life. While, I understand that you're pointing directly at the African American/Afro-Carribean community, I'm looking at the broader scope for all minorities. Anyone living under the superior or majority race's thumb, particularly back in the 20's all the way into the 80's had to fight to get to a point where they could sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor.

2. And? This is also true. Yes, my grandfather had to fight hard but, not terribly hard I should note, if you compare his situation back then to an African-American man's at the same time in America; due to the fact that he lived on an island where the predominant populace was 90% Afro-Carib. As opposed to the common African American during the 30s and whatnot in America, particularly in the South, my grandfather had is considerably "easy" actually. He was blessed with the ability to attend a good college and hold a steady job. Meanwhile his spiritual brethren were still fighting off the KKK down in the Bible Belt states during the 50s and 60s and clashing teeth and nail to pass the Civil Rights Movement.

3. My problem here is that you're generalizing. The majority of the black community are recovering from the effects of the fault lines of slavery today as it stands. Children in the ghetto are being enrolled into educational programs to help promote positivity, to help uplift them out of that "poverty state of mind", so they can have an instillment of the belief that they can overcome it. From darkness, comes the light. I wish you'd also realize that the rest of the minority groups had to go through these exact same stigmas. Does all of the effects have as much of an impact on certain minority groups than on the black community? Admittedly no, probably not, perhaps due to our long standing history of slavery, we still feel a deep sense of resentment about certain issues. But, as it stands, we have made strides in our community: in the media, politics, air force, military, etc.

You're merely spitting out statements, that while somewhat true, are making it seem like black people have so much to overcome yet, when in fact, there's so much we HAVE to be proud of in spite of these setbacks.

4. Not every Hispanic or Japanese or Korean immigrant would agree with your statement. I'm sure a lot of them had to put up with tons of flagrant racial intolerance as soon as they stepped off that plane or boat. Once you look different and you walk into a neighborhood or city filled with people who've only been surrounded by one set way of seeing things, seeing you, seeing themselves, then they'll project that belief unto you and themselves and on things, regardless of whether you challenge them or not. People who were taught to be racist act this way, until they learn to accept otherwise. Koreans, Japanese people, and Hispanic people looked different so to some white people they were targeted for their difference in skin tone and because of a lack of understanding or sense of respect for their cultures.

5. Right, I'm failing to understand what you're trying to imply here.
Are you implying that a black man IS ALWAYS overlooked as a potential employee in favor of a white man due to race? Or are you implying that this country isn't really fully integrated? Because if that's the case, then I'd urge you to realize that on both account you're wrong. You'd have to reread my response again.

Otherwise I fail to see what you mean by, "accounting for my fellow American when that's not the case." Please, explain this to me.

6. I outlined this or at least alluded to it in the next part of my paragraph.

7. Which I stated, that some individual members of the company were taught to be racist, were never taught otherwise, and so regurgitated this mentality whenever they looked at potential black employees versus their "fellow white man."

8. The issue, while understandable, because of certain racial stigmas that have left its mark on us as a society from hundreds of years of oppression and discrimination, is wrong in terms of the way they approach it. The Black Panther Party is a militant group, they were violent at the manifestation of their gathering as a group and they will continue to hold on that ideology. They are Anti-Semitic, Pro-Africanist, Pan-Africanist, and believe in a "Back to Africa" movement. Their manner of approach: they found a New Black Panther Party member brandishing a night stick at a ballot station in 2009 in Philadelphia, is just unjust, disrespectful to the representation of our community, and it stains the tapestry of unity that had become a symbol of this country, however frayed or marred it may seem to be to people sometimes.

And I quote, "The man reportedly carrying a nightstick was escorted away from the polling station by police. Outside, FOX News found another Black Panther who said he was a certified observer. Police asked him and the FOX News crew to leave the polling station.

As of noon, FOXNews.com had received complaints from voters around the country that polling stations were not prepared, that voting lists were inaccurate and some voters were worried when they were asked to cast paper ballots instead of using voting machines."

-- Time4Revolution.net

The same manner of reporting on this very same incident and similar ones can be found on the following sites: http://biggovernment.com/tag/black-panthers/, http://patterico.com/2010/07/03/new...er-to-testify-before-civil-rights-commission/ , and on http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...-dismissal-is-sleeper-issue-for-2010-midterms.

You must understand that if they were to publicize these acts any further then it would harm the image of blacks who don't sympathize with the way they address their issues of feeling Anti-Semitism or fanatical Black supremacy. I'm all for Black pride but not if it's going to be detrimental to society in general: for whites because of harassment, for the rest of the Black community because of our tarnished image and how we appear to now collectively supposedly view "everyone else."

They should consider that, these NBP members, when they talk to more tolerant proud fellow black brethren.

9. Honestly, I could care less about what the minority of a few radical Right-wing conservative racists believe about a newly elected Black president. They lost, he won, they need to get their heads out of their asses and wake up. The fact that we, as a community have that small victory, over a handful of people who sadly still feel that it's the God-given right to claim supremacy over the rest of the world, is a great thing indeed. This means little to us as a people in the long run, I'm sure the NBP could at least partially agree with me on that. Maybe. Albeit with more conviction and vehemence.

10. Good, so we agree on that and I'm glad you're paying homage to him through that gesture. He was great for opening up so many windows to upcoming black entertainers back in the day. Without him, we wouldn't have such a prevalent, loud, recognizable voice in the music industry. He was one of the revolutionary groundbreakers.

11. People are willing to entertain it, it's just that there was a general misconception on both sides of whom said what and how one penned their argument against another, that really had some people in this thread rallying against you. Had you made your arguments a little more clearer in terms of what you were trying to prove and what side you were really on from beforehand, then this might not have happened.

As it is, I think I have a slightly better grasp of what you're trying to pull at her. I still don't want to try to understand what the NBP are doing. But, as others have mentioned in this thread; like the KKK, the re-remerged group has fluctuating members and a muddy foundation to scramble on, plus the times have changed drastically. Who the heck needs to rally for militant meetings and whatnot? Why do white people need to gather around and spit racial slurs in big groups? The majority of America has moved past that so these groups have faded into obscurity, stuck in the 30s, 50s, and general yesteryear. They're clinging unto ideologies that are too radical, outdated, and flawed to be accepted by a wider demographic. So, they will never pose as big or as detrimental of a threat as they did in their prime years ago, ever again.

That's that.

 

[blakstang98]

Perhaps, but what about deep seated corruption? It's a very romantic view you have of America, but the inconvenient truth is the US and Europe used whatever means possible to oppress those they saw as a threat. They done it consistently throughout history, I would say it's heavily embedded in the culture.

Ah yes. The American myth. I would agree that race has much less to do with it than it used to. A black child born into wealth has more opportunity for advancement than a white child born into poverty. But money still drives this country, and it's not what you know, but who know. So if you know more people in higher positions, you have more opportunity to succeed. Unfortunately, with the disproportionate amount of black Americans that live in poverty, there is still a distinct gap of achievement between black Americans and white Americans. Race is a mitigating factor, as the cycle of poverty is just that... cyclical... and black Americans have yet to fully shake off the centuries of slavery. But the root cause is socioeconomic status differences.

It's not a romantic view, it's a realistic one. There is corruption, and there always will be, but I don't buy the whole "government is out to opress black people" theory.

We can get into a debate about money, but I'm going to stick with the race issue at hand. I don't see anything mythological about what I stated. Anyone, regardless of color or finiancial stance, a person does have to take initiative to get ahead in life. If a person doesn't take initiative, then they'll never get ahead. I don't see black people as being poverty stricken because of slavery. I'll refer to sneakerpimp's posts regarding said issues, as she has gone into much greater detail than I'll be able to, plus she has slavery in her ancestry, which further makes my point to both of you.


EDIT:

People talk so much about black people here............Even on the shoutbox and in normal threads.............

I bet most of this forum is rascist........even those who don't say insulting things on here,but as long as they keep it to themselves I guess that's ok..................

I took the liberty of removing this post because it is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[SaShman]

I'm not going to defend the New Black Panthers but I think it's important to try and understand them.

Conditions for African Americans only really improved in the later half of the 20th century. That's really not that long ago. So it's rather understandable that there would still be some feelings of resentment. I'm sure that many of the younger members of the New Black Panthers would've had parents who experienced the conditions of the 50's first hand and we all know how influential parents can be.

Prejudice can develop disturbingly easily depending on your perspective of a situation. For example if a man is living in a ghetto and he believes he is there because he is just poor, than who does he have to blame for his condition? However, if he believes he is there because of racial inequality, than obviously he would be more prone to develop hatred.

The fact of the matter is that prejudice can be resilient, especially for those which have had bad experiences with the particular group that they hold prejudiced thoughts against. The sad thing is that most hate groups actually believe that they are doing the right thing, so that makes it even harder to change their attitudes.

I took the liberty of removing this post because it is irrelevant to this discussion.

I found it kinda funny how you removed it, but still quoted it

 

[blakstang98]

I found it kinda funny how you removed it, but still quoted it

It was to make sure they knew that their post was deleted and why it was deleted. I didn't have to do that, and it wasn't necessarily a bad post, but I figured they did have the right to know why I deleted it. It just had nothing to do with anything with the topic at hand.

 

[Donald Trump]

It seems no one can tell the difference between rhetoric and action. All groups use hyperbole in their speeches. Ahmadinejad and just about every Arab leader of strength has made some comment about smashing the Jewish state, yet they never try to. The KKK go on about whatever it is they do now, yet they do nothing. So the New Black Panthers talk about killing white babies etc, it's very scary to hear in the heart of suburbia. Rumours of these mythical beasties called the blacks, they are bigger than buses, yet they've not killed a black baby yet.

And they have a point, the white man does run everything. Obama etc etc, except he's not afro-american at all. And look at his cabinet, all white. Army = white, Police = white. Lawyers are white so are doctors. Most university professors are white. Most CEOs of big businesses are white. Wherever you look you see white dominance. Such powerful rhetoric is not only justifiable it's needed. Louis Farrakhan says the same type of thing.

 

[Sir Kenneth]

They say white men deserve to pay for what they did because they "enslaved blacks" and kept their freedoms from them. And yes, it's true, whites, along with Egyptians, enslaved blacks. But, everyone has been enslaved in this sad world. Just as blacks were enslaved so were the native Americans when the Spaniards came to America, or the Egyptians, and women; women have been slaves since the beginning of time practically.

So, why is it that the black panthers think they were the only race or group enslaved when they weren't?

I'd like to point out that The French historian Fernand Braudel noted that slavery was endemic in Africa and part of the structure of everyday life. "Slavery came in different disguises in different societies: there were court slaves, slaves incorporated into princely armies, domestic and household slaves, slaves working on the land, in industry, as couriers and intermediaries, even as traders" (Braudel 1984 p. 435)


I know there are groups like the KKK that do this same bully routine, but everyone knows how retarded they are while the black panthers never seem to be spoken about.

“When we are unable to find tranquility within ourselves, it is useless to seek it elsewhere”

You claim you want an intelligent discussion about the black panthers, yet you feel the need to trivialize centuries of black exploitation in North America? I'm not trying to defend the black panthers, I don't think there's ever any justifiable reason to hate others because of their colour or their creed. Comparing the black slave trade and exploitation to what happened to the jews in BIBLICAL TIMES is absurd though. Just because bad thing happened to other people too, doesn't make the black slave trade less bad. 2 wrongs doesn't make a right.

As far as your little quote goes, it's true that slavery was common in Africa at the time, but that isn't the whole story. Slavery in Africa was very different from slavery in North America and nowhere near as hardline or barbaric. Slavery in Africa was in fact more like endentured servitude. Depending on the culture, they were even allowed to own property, earn wages, and could even buy their own freedom like the slaves of ancient Rome. That's hardly comparable to being worked to near death in cotton field by people who consider you subhuman and flog you at every given chance.

 

[Sepalcure]

It seems no one can tell the difference between rhetoric and action. All groups use hyperbole in their speeches. Ahmadinejad and just about every Arab leader of strength has made some comment about smashing the Jewish state, yet they never try to. The KKK go on about whatever it is they do now, yet they do nothing. So the New Black Panthers talk about killing white babies etc, it's very scary to hear in the heart of suburbia. Rumours of these mythical beasties called the blacks, they are bigger than buses, yet they've not killed a black baby yet.

And they have a point, the white man does run everything. Obama etc etc, except he's not afro-american at all. And look at his cabinet, all white. Army = white, Police = white. Lawyers are white so are doctors. Most university professors are white. Most CEOs of big businesses are white. Wherever you look you see white dominance. Such powerful rhetoric is not only justifiable it's needed. Louis Farrakhan says the same type of thing.

And you're quite right about that, a lot of these groups: The Klu Klux Klan, the Black Panthers/New Black Panthers, The Black Nation of Islam all used some form of rhetoric to drive their point across. Yet and this is the keyword, in their prime they were able to blend rhetoric with action.

The Klu Klux Klan, the Black Nation of Islam, and the Black Panthers, enacted these policies on the public during their prime years. Why? Obviously because they had strong foundations, a large member base, and honestly they dd try to spread their ideologies so to say that they never did this is really stretching it. This is no offense to you, but some people tend to make these generalized claims that these groups never ever move into action but they did. The Klu Klux Klan, in the 80s, that's just 20 years ago okay, lynched a Mr. Michael Donald and they murdered four elderly women, Viola Ellison, Lela Evans, Opal Jackson and Katherine Johnson in Chattanooga, Tennessee for example.

But for the sake of staying on topic, I'll turn to the Black Panther Party. The BPP as you probably know were a political powerhouse militant group in the mid 60s and 70s. They were prety much influenced by Malcolm X's teachings on African-American/Afro-Caribbean supremacy and that was further bolstered by the Pan-African concept headed by one Marcus Garvey. Now, while it is true that due to forceful legal action, waning external attacks, and exorbitant internal divisiveness, they were beaten back into obscurity.

What is pretty false is the fact that the BPP had all bark but no bite. They held political rallies and even became violent at some point (http://www.africanaonline.com/orga_black_panther.htm, http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com...min-protected-advocates-killing-white-babies/ (to support their newly found all bark and no bite approach to things), http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/ (to show you that they were very active).

Any group that upholds a series of ideologies, that protests against a government's political policies, foreign policies, etc. at some point due to outside legal action and a combination of internal disagreements and the changing of time and the evolution of a nation; will fall. However as the BPP and the KKK have proven they can and they have risen from the ashes, they have formed a modified version of their original group, however the only difference is that because of their small member base, they can't directly influence a whole entire population. If they were numbering in say he tens of thousands then they would be able to vehemently demonstrate their beliefs through violence, various scare tactics, and propaganda. They would not be just all bark and no bite.

Yes, the majority of the Senate, Congress, and Supreme Court are minded by white people. White people, I might add, that nine times out of ten don't care about anything except the fat check they'll receive in ther pockets. However what I do and will continue to disagree with, is HOW the NBPP likes to spew off their mouths in a rather unchecked way and promote intense Anti-Semitism because you see as that lovely young man in that video from this link: http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/ , demonstrates; he hates ALL white people.

That means he hates you, if you're white. He wouldn't care if you were nice, he'd be even more pissed off if you say dated a black girl because he would feel that you would be spreading more of your hated seed everywhere. No offense, but I'm just trying to clarify why these people are dangerous. They are the sort of people who would, if they could, and if they weren't so adamantly challenged by the government, murder tons of white people to make a point.

That would be a warning, an indication that they mean business and are prepared to act on their beliefs. So they may seem harmless now but just think if they had as much people as they did in the 70s and then times it by ten. They would be formidable and downright scary for everyone else because they just don't want to target government anymore, no they want to murder white peoples' kin in general. Regardless of who they are, what political party they're affiliated with, who they date, what their preference is sexually or racially. They don't care. It's the fact that they have this mentality that's scary, forget the fact that they can't act on it yet. And I say yet, because you really don't know how these groups might evolve in the future.

I'm not going to say that just because they're meager in their group size now that it couldn't change later. You can never make that claim for sure because we don't know what they're doing, who they're recruiting, and what they're planning. I'm just saying . . .

 

[Harlequin]

It's not a romantic view, it's a realistic one. There is corruption, and there always will be, but I don't buy the whole "government is out to opress black people" theory.

I don't buy that theory, but nor do I buy the "Land of the Free" theory either. You're talking about a country who has historically brutalised competition using subversive and malicious means.

If it really is the Land of the Free wouldn't it be fair to give the land back to whose ancestors it was taken from? They saw the two World Wars as an opportunity to make money selling arms and they destroyed Vietnam's jungles and villages because they voted against what the US wanted of them. You could say these past events have no bearing on today but the US used a bogus excuse to invade Iraq (a war I'm not particularly against btw) and didn't sign the Kyoto agreement to cut down on emissions.

Is that fair? Or does it hinder America? That's why I believe you have an overly romantised view of your fellow American and the country itself. We can't account for what another person will do. If tomorrow my mother becomes a rascist, I may not have seen it coming, but I could never have guaranteed she wasn't one.

Anyone, regardless of color or finiancial stance, a person does have to take initiative to get ahead in life. If a person doesn't take initiative, then they'll never get ahead.

I agree with that.

I don't see black people as being poverty stricken because of slavery. I'll refer to sneakerpimp's posts regarding said issues, as she has gone into much greater detail than I'll be able to, plus she has slavery in her ancestry, which further makes my point to both of you.

And I'll refer to her post to back up my argument aswell.

I never said the black American born into poverty is bound to his socioeconomic predicament. I did say he can work his way out of it. But the society they inherited hasn't quite been fixed since the days of segregation.

Higher crime rates, murder rates, a multitude of liquor and gun stores, how can you expect a black man growing up in such a society to break out of it? I don't wish to patronise the black American, but the issue is self perpetuating.

Yes, it can happen as sneakerpimp pointed out in her post, I never denied that, but there are constraints that keep the society broken. How are you going to study if people are shooting at your house? If you're constantly implored to join a gang for your own safety? Call the police? What police?

Alright, I'll tackle your argument piece by piece then.

1. This is true, we weren't blessed with a so called "easy way out" but then again neither were the members of the Latin community, members of the Afro-Caribbean community, Koreans, Chinese, Indians, etc. At some point, every minority had to carve their niche into society and fight to live comfortably in America. No immigrant comes here automatically living a privileged life.

A few immigrants do. But I understand your point.

How many of the ethnic minority you quoted were forced to migrate to America? How many were forced to live in a ghetto or find another country to live in when all they've known from birth is USA? When all the genuine Africans (culturally speaking of course) died out a few hundred years ago?

My problem here is that you're generalizing.

But this is a very general problem in the black communities of America. I'm making sweeping observations from what I hear of America here in the UK.

I haven't said that one black American's troubles are consistent with another's. I've said that a black man can work his way higher, but I've also implied that there could well be hidden stigma from many more people than you would think.

From darkness, comes the light. I wish you'd also realize that the rest of the minority groups had to go through these exact same stigmas.

I do. But as I mentioned earlier in this post they hadn't been forced to live in America, unlike the African American.

That doesn't mean every African American will be consigned to the ghetto today, that means that the black community was back then and the effects are still prevailent to this day.

Does all of the effects have as much of an impact on certain minority groups than on the black community? Admittedly no, probably not, perhaps due to our long standing history of slavery, we still feel a deep sense of resentment about certain issues. But, as it stands, we have made strides in our community: in the media, politics, air force, military, etc.

Something I never denied.

You're merely spitting out statements, that while somewhat true, are making it seem like black people have so much to overcome yet, when in fact, there's so much we HAVE to be proud of in spite of these setbacks.

There are. But I do believe the black American must overcome more than the white American. I would say the white American, by and large, wouldn't have to worry about the way he is treated because of his ethnicity as the black American would. Again, I'm not trying to patronise black America. If a black American doesn't work and only complains, may he remain poor.

5. Right, I'm failing to understand what you're trying to imply here.
Are you implying that a black man IS ALWAYS overlooked as a potential employee in favor of a white man due to race? Or are you implying that this country isn't really fully integrated? Because if that's the case, then I'd urge you to realize that on both account you're wrong. You'd have to reread my response again.

Otherwise I fail to see what you mean by, "accounting for my fellow American when that's not the case." Please, explain this to me.

I meant that you can't account for your fellow man. Only you can account for what is inside your head and what you believe. To say you haven't experienced a great deal of rascism isn't synonymous with that culture or society not being rascist. That is what I mean by not being able to account for your fellow American. Like I said earlier in the post, America, like their European ancestors, have done some abhorrent things to the world. They've stolen, murdered, etc..

When the perceived issue is far away, it seems tolerable, when it's on your doorstep, the disposition changes. The following quotes should provide further example:

I'm pretty sure they've got some wires crossed, but by burning a flag you make a statement. The Western world built their strength on the back of abhorrent dealings throughout the world. It's an inconvenient truth for some, but when these countries begin to feel threatened or competition emerges, they're quick to beat it down using any which way they can, even if they believe what they're doing to be cruel and unfair.

What happened in Vietnam? They wanted their freedom, the US decided they should vote for it, when the US realised they were going to vote for communism, they boycotted the vote. The next thing you know they're napalming their jungles and destroying their villages.

But the insecurities remain. The majority of people have no qualms with something until that something begins to happen. I'm not saying this is true with everyone, but a white man may see a black man as his equal, but when his daughter begins to date a black man, it sparks a deeper reaction. I've seen people who have no major issue with black people yet when the integration is too close to home, dispositions change.

Is the British monarchy a tolerant bunch? I'd say so. But they have blood gems from other lands encrusted in their crown jewels.

Sorry? Quite possibly. Return them? Never. Fair? Depends on what you believe.

8. The issue, while understandable, because of certain racial stigmas that have left its mark on us as a society from hundreds of years of oppression and discrimination, is wrong in terms of the way they approach it. The Black Panther Party is a militant group, they were violent at the manifestation of their gathering as a group and they will continue to hold on that ideology. They are Anti-Semitic, Pro-Africanist, Pan-Africanist, and believe in a "Back to Africa" movement. Their manner of approach: they found a New Black Panther Party member brandishing a night stick at a ballot station in 2009 in Philadelphia, is just unjust, disrespectful to the representation of our community, and it stains the tapestry of unity that had become a symbol of this country, however frayed or marred it may seem to be to people sometimes.

But I believe we should still strive to understand their anger rather than cast them out as war mongers. If they continue to be ignored, the hate and disdain will build and the problem will snowball.

You must understand that if they were to publicize these acts any further then it would harm the image of blacks who don't sympathize with the way they address their issues of feeling Anti-Semitism or fanatical Black supremacy.

I'm not talking about broadcasting their views further, I'm talking about help that can be given both ways. We could help them and you might not think so now, but they could help us.

9. Honestly, I could care less about what the minority of a few radical Right-wing conservative racists believe about a newly elected Black president. They lost, he won, they need to get their heads out of their asses and wake up. The fact that we, as a community have that small victory, over a handful of people who sadly still feel that it's the God-given right to claim supremacy over the rest of the world, is a great thing indeed. This means little to us as a people in the long run, I'm sure the NBP could at least partially agree with me on that. Maybe. Albeit with more conviction and vehemence.

The NBP could also argue that Obama is the white man's pawn. Not that I'd agree with them before you bite my head off.

They consider themselves African, is Obama African or American? I don't mean ethnically, I mean culturally.

For example, I'm half Brazilian half English. But I've spent practically my entire life in London. Now I understand Brazilian culture well, but I'm certainly English in how I'm cultured.

The same may not apply to the NBP. But they strive to be of African culture.

10. Good, so we agree on that and I'm glad you're paying homage to him through that gesture. He was great for opening up so many windows to upcoming black entertainers back in the day. Without him, we wouldn't have such a prevalent, loud, recognizable voice in the music industry. He was one of the revolutionary groundbreakers.

Not to mention probably being the most iconic human since Jesus Christ. With the invention of mass media he became so global America had to push him, which would have been hard considering MTV would have likely rathered a white act to put on the pedestal. It was more than just music, it was black music styles like soul, funk and jazz tearing large swathes through the globe and brought the world closer together. I don't mean to overly romantise it, but it was a victory for all races rather than just the black race. Other fringe acts began to be accepted and minds were opened to different cultures.

11. People are willing to entertain it, it's just that there was a general misconception on both sides of whom said what and how one penned their argument against another, that really had some people in this thread rallying against you. Had you made your arguments a little more clearer in terms of what you were trying to prove and what side you were really on from beforehand, then this might not have happened.

But I said repeatedly that I had only wished to provide background information and ask probing questions, some of which would have no doubt come from the mouths of a NBP member were he present in this debate. I can't form a definate opinion on the matter because at the end of the day, I wasn't born a black American in an underprivaleged society, I was born a half Brazilian geezer in a London hospital.

I still don't want to try to understand what the NBP are doing.

But you can understand without having to accept their ideals. If there is no understanding the fabric of our society breaks.

MOD EDIT: Merged posts and removed sneakerpimp's post. Just tidying up, carry on.

My post count My fragile interwebs ego

 

[Sepalcure]

I don't buy that theory, but nor do I buy the "Land of the Free" theory either. You're talking about a country who has historically brutalised competition using subversive and malicious means.

If it really is the Land of the Free wouldn't it be fair to give the land back to whose ancestors it was taken from? They saw the two World Wars as an opportunity to make money selling arms and they destroyed Vietnam's jungles and villages because they voted against what the US wanted of them. You could say these past events have no bearing on today but the US used a bogus excuse to invade Iraq (a war I'm not particularly against btw) and didn't sign the Kyoto agreement to cut down on emissions.

Is that fair? Or does it hinder America? That's why I believe you have an overly romantised view of your fellow American and the country itself. We can't account for what another person will do. If tomorrow my mother becomes a rascist, I may not have seen it coming, but I could never have guaranteed she wasn't one.





I agree with that.



And I'll refer to her post to back up my argument aswell.

I never said the black American born into poverty is bound to his socioeconomic predicament. I did say he can work his way out of it. But the society they inherited hasn't quite been fixed since the days of segregation.

Higher crime rates, murder rates, a multitude of liquor and gun stores, how can you expect a black man growing up in such a society to break out of it? I don't wish to patronise the black American, but the issue is self perpetuating.

Yes, it can happen as sneakerpimp pointed out in her post, I never denied that, but there are constraints that keep the society broken. How are you going to study if people are shooting at your house? If you're constantly implored to join a gang for your own safety? Call the police? What police?



A few immigrants do. But I understand your point.

How many of the ethnic minority you quoted were forced to migrate to America? How many were forced to live in a ghetto or find another country to live in when all they've known from birth is USA? When all the genuine Africans (culturally speaking of course) died out a few hundred years ago?



But this is a very general problem in the black communities of America. I'm making sweeping observations from what I hear of America here in the UK.

I haven't said that one black American's troubles are consistent with another's. I've said that a black man can work his way higher, but I've also implied that there could well be hidden stigma from many more people than you would think.



I do. But as I mentioned earlier in this post they hadn't been forced to live in America, unlike the African American.

That doesn't mean every African American will be consigned to the ghetto today, that means that the black community was back then and the effects are still prevailent to this day.



Something I never denied.



There are. But I do believe the black American must overcome more than the white American. I would say the white American, by and large, wouldn't have to worry about the way he is treated because of his ethnicity as the black American would. Again, I'm not trying to patronise black America. If a black American doesn't work and only complains, may he remain poor.



I meant that you can't account for your fellow man. Only you can account for what is inside your head and what you believe. To say you haven't experienced a great deal of rascism isn't synonymous with that culture or society not being rascist. That is what I mean by not being able to account for your fellow American. Like I said earlier in the post, America, like their European ancestors, have done some abhorrent things to the world. They've stolen, murdered, etc..

When the perceived issue is far away, it seems tolerable, when it's on your doorstep, the disposition changes. The following quotes should provide further example:





Is the British monarchy a tolerant bunch? I'd say so. But they have blood gems from other lands encrusted in their crown jewels.

Sorry? Quite possibly. Return them? Never. Fair? Depends on what you believe.



But I believe we should still strive to understand their anger rather than cast them out as war mongers. If they continue to be ignored, the hate and disdain will build and the problem will snowball.



I'm not talking about broadcasting their views further, I'm talking about help that can be given both ways. We could help them and you might not think so now, but they could help us.



The NBP could also argue that Obama is the white man's pawn. Not that I'd agree with them before you bite my head off.

They consider themselves African, is Obama African or American? I don't mean ethnically, I mean culturally.

For example, I'm half Brazilian half English. But I've spent practically my entire life in London. Now I understand Brazilian culture well, but I'm certainly English in how I'm cultured.

The same may not apply to the NBP. But they strive to be of African culture.



Not to mention probably being the most iconic human since Jesus Christ. With the invention of mass media he became so global America had to push him, which would have been hard considering MTV would have likely rathered a white act to put on the pedestal. It was more than just music, it was black music styles like soul, funk and jazz tearing large swathes through the globe and brought the world closer together. I don't mean to overly romantise it, but it was a victory for all races rather than just the black race. Other fringe acts began to be accepted and minds were opened to different cultures.



But I said repeatedly that I had only wished to provide background information and ask probing questions, some of which would have no doubt come from the mouths of a NBP member were he present in this debate. I can't form a definate opinion on the matter because at the end of the day, I wasn't born a black American in an underprivaleged society, I was born a half Brazilian geezer in a London hospital.



But you can understand without having to accept their ideals. If there is no understanding the fabric of our society breaks.

My post count My fragile interwebs ego

1. And the UK hasn't either? I'm not trying to take sides here and wholly and staunchly defend the historical accuracies of the US; however, I merely want to point out that the UK did it first -- this whole slave trade business, then came the Netherlands, and the US . . . when they received their bulk of slaves from the ships. Granted, this country was built upon the sweaty backs of these poor peoples' ancestors but without struggle and adversity, sadly, you wouldn't have we have today. Is it fair that we must fight hard, if not harder than other races, that I as a young black woman, have to se the academic bar higher, than other women? No, it's not but if it's what needs to be done, than it's what needed to be done.

Call this twisted but for a good majority of us, knowing this knowledge, being taught about it, allows us to be assertive, and more independent. Academically we challenge ourselves and learn to accept the brutalities of our past as a people but we also smile at the beauty that we possess, at the amazing sheer amount of talent we have, and what we're capable of doing for ourselves and others when we put these to use.

If America really were the Land of the Free, then wouldn't they have given back "their" land to the rightful owners, the Native Americans? You have what was once a proud, wise, and graceful and proud race, beaten into a few small numbers living on reservation sites; giving tours and spreading the last remnants of their stripped culture through dance. How the hell is THAT right? If we were to look at the foundations of a nation however, then you would note that at some point inhabitants were enslaved by a higher power only to be auctioned off to work and provide financial stability to said nation. In a sad way, during the times of Expansionism and Globalization, these were some of the only cruel and unfair methods available. Wrong? Absolutely. But what did it do for the nation in the long run and what did force those former slaves and their descendants to do?

The Iraqi War is an irrelevant nod to the discussion, admittedly but I'm interested to know why you don't fully disagree with the need for it. I personally, don't feel it's necessary to, in my humble opinion, forcefully raid a country and try to enact your government's policies via a puppet president. Every war we've set up: The Vietnam War, WWI, and WWII were all done in the name of privatized business fundings. We needed to break the stock market back then in order to generate money after a period of long fighting (ten years or eight years, if it's past five, then it's good for the gov't). Obviously some people will disagree with me, but there are reasons we haven't pulled out yet . . . anyway I'm straying off topic.

We don't have to account for it but we can voice our opinions on the matter or we can choose to stay quiet. We can take certain methods to be public about it or raise awareness about said racism: whether it be through a blog, a new article on a liberal underground magazine or webzine, there are ways to bring the general public up to date with this, hypothetically speaking.

P.S. As blackstang said, his views are realistic, as are mine, and our views are pretty similar. These are the facts and harsh realities and sometimes positive realities of what happened, could happen, and might just happen.

2. Glad you do.

3. The society we inherited? So I'm confused as to what you're stating here. Okay, we've established that it's very possible for a formerly poor black person to rise out of poverty. The man who inspired the wonderful movie HITCH is proof of that. Did we inherit a society of slavery on our backs? A shadow of what happened to our ancestors? Yes. Does it haunt all of us everyday? Yes. However, as a first generation Jamaican-American I can't say what I knew what it was like to struggle or face blatant racism being spat at in my face.

My teacher could be racist, my neighbor could be racist too, all of this stems from the core fact that we never really can trust the surface statements or beliefs of a person. That is to say, they could be masquerading as some tolerant and perfectly accepting individual but until we start either reading into their every word and body language or they do something to challenge this perception, then we obviously won't know. Simply put, you still don't know your mom's a racist so you can't assume she was one. You can only go by what you know. You have to swallow and accept that whenever you meet someone who isn't of the same race as you or sometimes is of the same race as you (you have people who hate their own race as well).

I feel the need to point out that not every black person grows up with gunshots firing in their neighborhood, seeing gang members engage in virulent turf wars, have to witness a mom selling drugs and/or doing them, sell their bodies for money, steal money for food, murder people to be accepted and join a gang, or do a variety of these atrocious acts that's so inaccurately assumed of every black ghetto or project. There are students who attended my school who lived in neighborhoods that were admittedly not in great condition but actually had been changing for the better. They were putting in educational institutions similar to KUMON to help these kids excel in school subjects, they were renovating and building new developments, and scrubbing out that week's criminals with a fine bristle haired brush.

Also not every poor black person who resides in a ghetto lives in fear of whether the police will bust down that culprit's door or whether they can study due to gunshots being fired through the air. Where some of my friends grew up were poor conditioned neighborhood however they attended a nice public school, they were able to study, because people did issue complaints about gun shots and the culprits were caught and penalized. These students were usually pretty accepting of the fact that they didn't grow up in the Hiltons or the Poconos but still, they were able to make strides to eventually get up out of the ghetto.

It's possible to overcome these dire every happenings in your neighborhood and do well for yourself. My cousin, Monique grew up in a not so great neighborhood it wasn't as bad as the actual ghetto, but some kids engaged in gunfights. In fact, while I was over there a few years back, for a summer vacation, someone was wounded by a gunshot there. They were treated and the police never found the suspects. Still, we just went inside and resumed our playing inside. It shook us up some but we were able to use positive thinking to beat back our fears.

4. If you think about it, my dear, no American can account for their fellow American. Everyone has had a different experience, form, outlook, perception of racism whether the difference is minute or very noticeable. I can't account for the white dude down the street because yes maybe he grew up poor and his family historically had no evidence of owning any slaves (not every white family had enough privileges back then to dip their feet in the slave trading pool, thankfully, really thankfully) but still he might not know what slavery was. Because they were broke themselves, they probably were too worried about saving their own skin by their teeth to be concerned about the lives of slaves. OR they just resided in a community where there were virtually no slaves, thus the descendant can't account for my view on it and I can't account for his.

Likewise there are some people who have had ancestors who had similar experiences as my ancestors, although there are marked differences. Their standing on racism and its place in our country could be different than mine somehow and I can't account for whether they'll be racist or not. Obviously you can only account for your individual thoughts, experiences, dreams, etc. What you do everyday and what you feel about certain issues are going to shape you as a person in the long run, usually what the average person feels, we can't account for, or cry over.

5. Wait the genuine Africans? Dude, you're treading fine lines with that statement and manner of address. There are Africans that still hold on to their culture, not every shred of it, but still they understand a great deal of what their ancestors used to do back in the day, during the times of Christ. A majority of them are more culturally aware than some other people are in this country. The genuine African man did not die out, he can still hold fast to what his grandfather's grandfather did, what his grandfather's grandfather's grandfather experienced.

I obviously can't give you an accurate number on how many immigrants came to this country, having to live in the ghetto and experience hardships. I can only say that some did experience hardships and some did not. Some people come from privileged families from their home country and depending on the time they immigrate here they either experience a difficulty adjusting and living comfortably or they adjust pretty damn well. Normally if you immigrate post-60s you find it relatively easy to adjust although this varies in itself depending on the process you had to take to come here and how easily it went or how hard it went.

My mom came in the 80s to this country and furthermore as I stated in one of my previous posts, her father overcame his childhood setbacks, and established a more than comfortable lifestyle for his children. In some people's eyes, they would be considered rich in their experiences and available resources. My mother was able to travel to the U.S. from Jamaica during a time when half of the island couldn't afford to and viewed the ability to do so as a mark of wealth, sophistication, and high privilege. When she came to America the hardest thing she experienced was deciding whether to celebrate Halloween or not.

Compare that to my stepfather who came from poverty in his home country. He lived in a ramshack with four other siblings and his mother strived to provide what little she could for them. Her sister found much better opportunities over "a'foreign" or abroad so she sent them to all live with her. My stepfather went to a public school and struggled to fit in because of his thick accent and his shoddy appearance (he didn't get a pair of shoes until his elder brother promised to work hard to finally buy him his very first pair. Ever. He walked around barefoot most of his life up until that point). White children teased him relentlessly and he even had to fight his way through a few brawls in order to overcome the racial stigma he experienced. Even when he got his first job in the 70s, he still had to fight to earn the outstanding position he holds in Sirius Satellite today. Now he works along a diverse team of people and travels to Japan, Russia, Canada, England, France, etc. daily on a 1st class flight.

He struggled and sweat blood and tears to get that position whereas my mother came here practically dancing through everything. She didn't know racism here, only in her home country, and that was only subtle because her swimming instructors happened to be European and frowned down upon their black students versus their white ones. And this was in an upscale Catholic girls' school.

6. And am I or any other person in the US going to deny that claim? Absolutely not. So long as we breathe air, piss, drink, screw, pop out babies, work, and do every other little thing in our daily insignificant lives, racism will exist. So long as people spread ignorance and falsified "facts" it will exist, so long as we have radical anti-Semitic or anti-Black or anti-White groups encouraging racist thoughts and blatant hatred, it will exist. All we can do is not contribute to the following thoughts, beliefs, groups' virulent fuel for fodder and continue to make progress as a people.

That's all.

Also, the British Monarchy is tolerant NOW but from my understanding of what they did, I would never agree with the claims that they were tolerant hundreds of years ago. They shed gallons of blood to become the superpower that they were all of those years ago and almost cheated America from becoming her own country.

Return them? Well they've given a good majority of the Caribbean islands their flag independence. Jamaica got theirs in August of '62, almost a century or more after slavery first touched their gorgeous shores. I believe that Bermuda is among of the few islands to still be flag dependent. Being flag dependent is a big thing because alongside that, they still don't have as much cultural, social, or governmental leeway as a lot of other islands do. Jamaica, the Bahamas, and Grenada amongst a few others don't need to exercise the monarch's power through their prime ministers . . . Bermuda does.

7. Wait, what? Yes a good deal of those immigrants had to force themselves to live in America. All of them? No. But they did even if they weren't African-American or Afro-Caribbean? Yup. I'm still standing by my statement that not every single immigrant comes to this country privileges. Only a few do.

8. Understand what? They're a militant violent group that spouts that white peoples' babies should get the axe. They don't want to sit down and have a nice little chat and be agreeable. I'd urge you to click the link I posted, the man in that video, pretty much stated that he hates every last "cracker, every last iota of them". He's a leader of one of the branches, now that's not to say that he reflects the collective thought or conscience/beliefs of this group but he represents a shred of it. Most of the members believe these things with the same vehemence that that man does and they don't feel like making any compromises. They're established to only further the black race using black people to exercise this need through violent, quick, vocal means. Being understood by white people in their minds, means letting the white man win and possibly take advantage of them and screwing them over as an established group. They don't want that. So there's nothing to understand or sympathize about in my general opinion. Hell no.

SOME immigrants must overcome a lot, some don't have to overcome as much. Their ancestors' strife don't accurately reflect or always determine their quality of life, what ever poor choices these descendants make, influence their socio-economic standing.

9. I'm sorry I can't agree with you on that. Ever. I refuse to advocate the hatred that this group spreads. There are white people that I know of who are, to my knowledge, very tolerable and sweet people, some of them even have parents who aren't as tolerable but they refuse to follow in their footsteps. I'm not going to turn around and say that just because these peoples' forefathers probably fucked over my ancestors' lives and stripped us of our original name, that we need to be forceful and watch them like a paranoid violent madman and woman. Likewise I won't try to justify or make excuses for their behavior, it's just wrong, the approach is damaging to their group's foundation and to society in general, they not only instill fear in white people but in tolerant black people like myself as well.

I understand the reasons behind the group's creation but I don't advocate their methods and the government will never allow their dreams to pass either. They've shot themselves in the head, can't change that. Oh well. Maybe if they went about being more agreeable and embraced the word compromise then something could've been worked out or at the very least considered. But spewing out hateful statements and being violent gets you no where, that's why there will never be progression on their part and on the KKK's part. They are acting like whiny children at this point. Whiny ignorant silly ones.

10. I don't know, IS Obama African or American culturally. Technically if he were American in culture--well wait, what would that mean? America has grown to be a country founded upon the basis of merging cultures so wouldn't he be a tolerant somewhat knowledgeable person if he were American, at least somewhat? I mean that's what I think of when I think of a culturally American person. Maybe Obama is African-American culturally, maybe he knows a bit more about his African culture, we can't account for what he knows or assume it. We don't live with the guy.

As for what the NBP insists then let them insist it. But in the long run the government, as I said before or alluded to, are going to determine the strength of these guys' words. At the moment, what they say means dog crap to them. Excuse the French.

11. Exactly, MJ was another symbol of hope and 'yes we can' for my mother's generation and the lives of so many black adults that listened to him as children and teens and young college students growing up. He was and will always be an amazing individual. Undeniably so for a lot of people.

12. My understanding or anyone else's understanding of this group's reasons for doing what they do, I highly doubt will result in the breakage of society. Until they show that they're progressing and that they're not just all bark and no bite, then I refuse to crap my pants in fear or scramble to understand them and even if they did do it, my opinion and most of the general public's opinions on them won't be swayed. What they're saying, the manner in which they're advocating it is wrong and very far from peaceful where you want to sympathize or empathize with them.

 

[Harlequin]

1. And the UK hasn't either? I'm not trying to take sides here and wholly and staunchly defend the historical accuracies of the US; however, I merely want to point out that the UK did it first -- this whole slave trade business, then came the Netherlands, and the US . . . when they received their bulk of slaves from the ships.

I know. Britain wasn't spared from the flak from me in the following quotes:

What many fail to understand is that it wasn't the white man oppressing the black man, it was America and European empires oppressing forced black African migrants.

When the British stole India's resources, when they enslaved millions of Africans, when they invaded the New World and drove the owners of the land out, what flag symbolised their people?

The Union Jack.

I'll be more than happy to go on about how this country of mine raped the world of it's resources, but this isn't an issue of whose country's worse, it's about what that country represents. The USA may represent freedom and equality to you, but remember you've received an American education, there are a damn sight more people who see the USA as a symbol of cultural imposition, intolerance and bigotry.

Just to clarify, I don't hate America.

Granted, this country was built upon the sweaty backs of these poor peoples' ancestors but without struggle and adversity, sadly, you wouldn't have we have today. Is it fair that we must fight hard, if not harder than other races, that I as a young black woman, have to se the academic bar higher, than other women? No, it's not but if it's what needs to be done, than it's what needed to be done.

Which only enforces the point I was making.

If we were to look at the foundations of a nation however, then you would note that at some point inhabitants were enslaved by a higher power only to be auctioned off to work and provide financial stability to said nation. In a sad way, during the times of Expansionism and Globalization, these were some of the only cruel and unfair methods available. Wrong? Absolutely. But what did it do for the nation in the long run and what did force those former slaves and their descendants to do?

Rise above it or perish, much as I had explained. I think we're on the same side here.

The Iraqi War is an irrelevant nod to the discussion, admittedly but I'm interested to know why you don't fully disagree with the need for it. I personally, don't feel it's necessary to, in my humble opinion, forcefully raid a country and try to enact your government's policies via a puppet president.

As a Christian I oppose unnecessary wars, but if it's for the preservation of human life, I'm pretty much all for it (not the lies that came with it though). I do believe if Iran were to enrich uranium they would eventually bomb Israel, but that's another discussion.

P.S. As blackstang said, his views are realistic, as are mine, and our views are pretty similar. These are the facts and harsh realities and sometimes positive realities of what happened, could happen, and might just happen.

The same could be said for mine. :dave:

3. The society we inherited? So I'm confused as to what you're stating here.

It's a comment on the self perpetuating problem of the ghetto that was inherited after segregation. The ignorance and anger of some black Americans has trickled down from generation to generation. Young black men are still being shot at for wearing blue instead of red and members of their community continue to blame those who are blameless for their problems.

I feel the need to point out that not every black person grows up with gunshots firing in their neighborhood, seeing gang members engage in virulent turf wars, have to witness a mom selling drugs and/or doing them, sell their bodies for money, steal money for food, murder people to be accepted and join a gang, or do a variety of these atrocious acts that's so inaccurately assumed of every black ghetto or project.

I didn't believe it was like that for every impoverished black American. But of those that are that way? What made them that way? Were they born savage, or into a stagnant society that made them that way?

Of course you can point to schemes being run today and I'd agree that things are getting better, but there are areas where these problems remain.

5. Wait the genuine Africans? Dude, you're treading fine lines with that statement and manner of address. There are Africans that still hold on to their culture, not every shred of it, but still they understand a great deal of what their ancestors used to do back in the day, during the times of Christ.

That's true. Perhaps I was treading a fine line, but you're talking about African Americans who hold on to understanding. I'm half Brazilian (ethnically) and I understand Brazilian culture very well, but I'm not of Brazilian culture. I didn't grow up in Brazil, I learnt Portuguese here in London from my mother, I'm not a genuine Brazilian. If such a thing exists.

I was refering to slaves who had grown up in Africa, who knew of African culture first hand. They died out long before the days of abolition. The people you speak of are not whom I was refering to.

A majority of them are more culturally aware than some other people are in this country. The genuine African man did not die out, he can still hold fast to what his grandfather's grandfather did, what his grandfather's grandfather's grandfather experienced.

I sure he didn't, but the culture you speak of is either first hand or handed down to him while he grew up as an American.

Also, the British Monarchy is tolerant NOW but from my understanding of what they did, I would never agree with the claims that they were tolerant hundreds of years ago.

I wouldn't even make the claim that they're tolerant now.

They shed gallons of blood to become the superpower that they were all of those years ago and almost cheated America from becoming her own country.

There's no such thing as cheating in war. The land didn't belong to the European immigrants in the first place. Or it did?...if you see nothing wrong with driving out the original inhabitants.

7. Wait, what? Yes a good deal of those immigrants had to force themselves to live in America. All of them? No. But they did even if they weren't African-American or Afro-Caribbean? Yup. I'm still standing by my statement that not every single immigrant comes to this country privileges. Only a few do.

I'm not talking about them forcing themselves, I'm talking about America forcing them to live there, like African Americans were forced to live there until slavery was abolished.

8. Understand what?...

...So there's nothing to understand or sympathize about in my general opinion. Hell no.

So you don't believe they need help? Then why not lock them up if you're unwilling to help them intergrate into society?

9. I'm sorry I can't agree with you on that. Ever. I refuse to advocate the hatred that this group spreads.

I hadn't suggested you advocate it, only try to understand to help them. At your own discretion of course.

10. I don't know, IS Obama African or American culturally. Technically if he were American in culture--well wait, what would that mean? America has grown to be a country founded upon the basis of merging cultures so wouldn't he be a tolerant somewhat knowledgeable person if he were American, at least somewhat?

Grown to be? The USA has always been a country of English, French, Irish, Dutch, Native American, etc.. cultures and ethnicity.

I'll respond to the rest inabit ¬_¬

 

[Terra Branford]

Guys....I just saw a video of the New Black Panthers praising Osama Bin Laden (Don't say we don't have proof he didn't do it. He wouldn't have gone out to hide if he wasn't responsible and all of the people under him were praising 9'11). I think they said before 9'11, or it was before the day they said to kill babies...

What's up with that? *I don't want to start anything, I'm just asking a question*

*I hope posting in here was okay...*

 

[Sum1sgruj]

The original Black Panthers didn't fight racism with racism. The new party does. In fact, they just fight anything with racism// thats why they aren't respected like the original, and don't get anywhere politically. By those standards, they are no different than the KKK.