So which Cloud pairing do you think is displayed most in the film?
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In all honestly i agree with LadyAerith - show me the exact line where cloud says to TIfa - I Love You. Besides this topis is supposed to be about your interpretation of the film not the novels etc.
[COLOR=#c0000]Show me the exact line he told Aeris "I Love You", or anything close to it.
Actually, show me where Tifa was called a koibito by the creators.
Show me where she is seen with Cloud raising children.
Show me how she knows Cloud best.
ect.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0000e]And I don't see what the point of discussing Cloud's love interest is if you can't refer to the game and other things created by the creator. The novel "Case of Tifa" leads up to AC and is very important if you want to understand why Cloud acted the way he did. "Maiden Over The Planet" lets us know how Aeris coped with life (XD) after she died. First she says she wants to be with Cloud forever, then she is jelous of Tifa, and finally accepts that Cloud was going to "live" with her.
Aeris also isn't selfish. Just take Calling for example. Here is the official
script:[/COLOR]
Tana, lay off. Just lay off already. This is supposed to be a thread based on opinion. Whether it's all fact or not, who cares? There's always going to be shippers for certain pairs and you are blowing it all out of the water by acting like a know-it-all so just lay off of it already and let others post what they feel without throwing all of your fact in their faces, okay?
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I didn't say you can't ship whichever pair you want so you don't have to get so emotional about it. You insisted that CoT is a fanfic and that it is not official from SE themselves. It is, and you were wrong. However that link you sent me is nothing but speculation and opinions from a biased fan. I'm going to debate about it because it's not true. CoT was written by Nojima who also wrote the story for FF7 yet here you are claiming that it is mearly a fanfic and that everything about the LTD is up to interpretation.
Nojima is part of the team that made FF7 and helped write the characters, not just Nomura. Suit yourself. But there is a clear line between a fact and an opinion. I gave my facts and you gave me nothing in return. So stop acting like the victim here, I was just trying to have a little friendly debate. And for the record I wasn't acting like a know-it-all, I was just bringing some facts to the table of which I know of.So, I'm not saying that you should stop 'shipping' your preffered pairing of choice. Nothing is stopping you, and I'm not trying to be an ass. But it is when you claim that an official product from the creators themselves are nothing but opinions is when I get a little defensive. After all, who better to trust than the creators themselves on such a topic? That's all.
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RoseDincht
Banned
Show me a line where Cloud says to Aeris "I Love You" and I'll give you a million dollars.
Using that as "evidence" is useless, because it can be used in both ways. Cloud doesn't tell either of the girls "I love you" because that's not his character. It would be way too direct of Cloud to do that.
And will everybody calm down? Just because Tana posts facts doesn't mean that she's forcing them down your throat. You're taking this WAAAAY too personally.
Also worth mentioning that using Destiny Fulfilled or any of FF Goddess' sites as proof is ridiculous, since it's the most bias, twisted, and warped site out there that doesn't give facts, only the twisted remains of them. Watch the movie, play the games, and come up with your own theories. I'm sure you'll see that Cloti is hinted the most throughout FF7 if you do. And if you don't see it, then who really cares? Why should Cloud/Aeris or Cloud/Tifa have to be canon in order for you to love the couple? I mean hell, I love Tai/Sora from Digimon but you don't see me freaking out just because Matt/Sora is canon.
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I agree, Cloud isn't really the best when it comes to expressing his feelings in words. But when he DOES open up in those rare moments, I think it's something important to note. He never did any of those things with Aeris so that's why I don't beleive that Cloud really loved in her the cliche romantic type love way. I think they have a deeper relationship than that, if it makes any sense.
RoseDincht
Banned
Here's my view on Cloud and Aeris' relationship for those who want to know:
WARNING, VERY LONG
The very first time Cloud and Aeris met in Final Fantasy VII, there was no doubt an almost instant bond between the two. Some call it love at first sight, others call it the start of a beautiful friendship. But there is no doubt in my mind that, in just the first few seconds of meeting each other, Cloud and Aeris were both destined to become very important people in each other's lives. That right there is a proven fact. Even if Cloud and Aeris were not destined to become lovers, they did have a huge impact on each others' lives.
Like most friendships begin, it all starts with just a simple act of kindness towards another person. The sweet and sociable girl speaks to an outcast whose no doubt had his share of hardships in the past. In return, that cold, lonely person makes her smile by buying a flower from her. Who would have thought that just one act of kindness would be the start of something unforgettable? In the case of Cloud and Aeris, they met each other, exchanged a few kind words, and then were on their way. I'm sure the two of them didn't expect to run into each other again, as Cloud states back at the 7th Heaven, that once he got the job done, that he was going to leave. I'm sure his meeting with the flowergirl, at that point, wasn't his top concern. For Aeris however, he obviously made some sort of impression.
Going into the most common idea shared amongst the majority of Cloud/Tifa fans, I personally believe that the impact was definately the Mako eyes Cloud had, which no doubt reminded Aeris of her old boyfriend. That would be one logical explaination as to how Aeris would remember one of her costumers who bumped into her on the streets. Perhaps at first, she was uncertain of this character who showed up with Mako eyes right after a bomb went off. But when he didn't try to hurt her or kidnap her for the Shinra company's sake, and instead spoke to her and bought a flower, that's possibly what left an impression (and then, of course, the memory of Zack came shortly afterwards).
The way I see it, Cloud saw Aeris as someone who was delicate and vulnerable. She wasn't a typical damsel in distress, and she wasn't completely helpless. The girl was persistant and she had spunk, and was fairly happy, spirited and lively. But even so, she was always outnumbered and surrounded by a bad crowd. The Shinra were always after her, she always had a run-in with the Turks. And even though she claimed that she was used to it, he looked at her as a girl who needed his protection. Aeris knew that she couldn't keep running away from the Shinra, and that sooner or later they would get ahold of her. Perhaps the reason she was so close to Cloud was because she knew that he could take care of her and protect her, and if she was caught by the Shinra, that he could save her. And seeing that Cloud managed to get her out of the church, away from the Shinra soldiers, and even rescue her when she was held captive in the Shinra Headquarters, he lived up to her expectations, and that in turn made her grow very fond of him.
With that said, it's no doubt that one would think, "Since he seems to want to protect her so much, and since she needed someone to look out for her, then that would be a good way to start a romantic relationship". I personally thought that myself. But you have to take a few things into mind, first being that Cloud is still a hired mercenary who is doing a job for a client. The second is that the two, even though they had that almost instant bond, are still strangers. The two of them played that "it's just a job" excuse off rather well, which is perhaps Cloud's excuse for looking out for her. In Aeris' case, she turns the job excuse into a way to flirt with Cloud, such as the "It was only for one date, after all!". It's obvious that after he went out of his way to save her from the Turks, Hojo, and the others at the Shinra company, that Aeris was flattered by that. She doesn't seem to have many friends apart from the two kids at the church (who take care of her flowers when she's not there). So when she has a complete stranger put himself in some pretty tough situations for her sake, when he could have just as easily left her to rot, that would no doubt make her attached to this person. One could assume that, asside from Zack, Cloud was Aeris' first actual friend.
And it would be easy to believe that as well. She doesn't seem to be used to people going out of their way to help her. She does act rather stunned when Barret defends her in the Shinra Headquarters, even though they had never met before. You could also say that, asside from Cloud rescuing her a couple times at the beginning of the game, that her closeness and fondness of Cloud could originate from the fact that once Cloud stepped into her life, he brought several new and interesting people along with him. Through him, Aeris was able to make new friends and visit places that she probably thought that she would never see in her life. She was able to talk to people, interact with others, and live out each day without hiding or being afraid that she was going to get taken to some laboratory. And all because of one person who decided to buy a flower from her one night.
But also keep in mind that the two are still strangers. There are still a lot of mysteries about Cloud that Aeris wanted to solve. I have no doubt in my mind that Aeris was attracted to Cloud, and that she did have a crush on him, but that is to be expected. If someone did so much for you, I'm sure you would be attracted to them as well. Yet you cannot call their relationship a deep and passionate one, for in the short time they shared together, there was still a lot about each other that they did not know. Aeris didn't know the real Cloud in her lifetime, just as Cloud did not know everything about Aeris' culture or past. That was something she wanted to find out on their date together. Aeris no doubt was interested in Cloud, she liked him very much, but she didn't want to be with someone who was just another Zack.
Let me rephrase that, if I must. To Aeris, she knew that Cloud and Zack were two different people. Even if they shared the same personalities, she did not want to be with someone when she was still in love with someone else. That is why she wanted to get to know Cloud better, the part that didn't remind her of Zack, AKA the real Cloud. As for Cloud, Aeris was no doubt someone he enjoyed being around. He did not want to cause her any trouble, and he did want to make her happy when she was upset. The scene at Cosmo Canyon is proof of that. He sits down beside her, she feels upset and lonely, and he tries to comfort her. When he says "But I... we're here for you", I think that was Cloud realizing that he did like her very much, but didn't want to rush into things. The two were still strangers, and perhaps saying that he alone was there for her would offend some of the other party members, or maybe even make things harder on Aeris herself. Aeris, in response, tries to cheer him up. Cloud, although he isn't as dark and cynical as others try to make him out to be, isn't the cheeriest person in the world. If Aeris isn't in your party when you run along the traintracks, she cheers him on and wishes him luck. She teases him when he does something silly. She flirts with him to lighten him up a bit. The two obviously don't want each other to be unhappy, and that's what I like about their relationship as friends.
Which then brings me to the Temple of the Ancients scene. It's a very controversial scene indeed. Fans of Tifa state that it was rude of Aeris to start flirting with Cloud infront of Tifa, while fans of Aeris use this as proof to support their couple (with the whole fortune telling thing). I personally would have to disagree with both. For one, all is fair in love and war. Cloud was not officially "together" with Aeris or Tifa. He was not anybody's boyfriend or sweetheart at that point of the game. Two women were interested in him, and they put the moves on him from time to time. Things like that happen all the time. But getting back on track, I didn't exactly see it as Aeris trying to be cruel to Tifa. For one, I believe that she was trying to cheer up Cait Sith but letting him tell his fortunes before he sacrificed himself (somewhat). Cait Sith enjoyed telling fortunes, despite the fact that he wasn't very good at them, and Aeris figured that it would be something nice to do for him. At the same time, she wanted to flirt with Cloud a bit, probably teasing him. I personally don't think the fortune telling or anything was by all means serious if you want my honest opinion. Aeris wanted to make Caith Sith happy while flirting with Cloud at the same time, but since she wasn't absolutely in love with Cloud, she was most likely playing around (rather then being serious about fortunes and if their stars match). As an added bonus, Cait Sith made that "Poor Tifa" comment, probably teasing her (which would most likely explain why she turned around all embarassed, because he was somewhat fronting her feelings off to Cloud). That's the way I see it. Nothing extremely romantic or hurtful. Just a playful scene between friends.
The way I can describe Cloud and Aeris' relationship while she was alive is that it consisted mostly of friendly comments, gestures, light flirting and kidding around. Aeris no doubt had a crush on Cloud, but going so far as to say that their relationship was in depth and had meaning as far as romance goes is a little farfetched, for the two still knew very little about each other. Aeris's death was no doubt what destroyed any chance of her and Cloud being together romantically. It was a moment that Cloud would never forget and would not forgive himself for (and for a very long time, at that). It's completely understandable why he would feel that much pain though. Anybody would feel hurt if they watched their friend die right infront of them. And it's not an uncommon thing for someone to feel as if it was their fault, that they didn't do something to prevent it and keep it from happening. Ontop of that, it was Cloud's job to be Aeris' bodyguard, so that no doubt added onto the pain and pressure. That was why he broke down during that scene. His best friend was dead, he didn't do anything to prevent it (as far as he's concerned), and he was putting up with the shock of it all (hence the quote "She'll never laugh or cry or get angry...").
But when you get down to it, Cloud is not a selfish character. He would have reacted that way if it was anybody else who was close to him. If it was Tifa in Aeris' place, he certainly would have felt pain and sorrow. If it was Barret or Cid or Red XIII, he would have cried for them as well, especially if they died right infront of his eyes. Cloud had a truamatic past where he saw not only his best friend die (trying to save his life, ontop of that) but saw his hometown and his mother go up in flames. Death is a horrible thing that someone has to deal with, especially when it comes to someone who was young. So when Cloud saw yet another person die before his eyes, especially as close of a friend as Aeris was to him, he naturally went into a breakdown.
And yet it was Cloud himself that said that he had to move on. Clearly that is easier said then done. When he came to remember his friendship and past with Zack (and of course his untimely death), that plus Aeris' death seemed to pile up on him. If there is anything about Cloud that is certain, it's that he remembers everything. Even though his memory was scrambled, even though his past was a mystery, he did remember what happened in Nibelheim and then remembered what happened to Zack. And when Aeris fell at the hands of Sephiroth, he most certainly wouldn't forget about it.
The end of the game was something very special, in my opinion. Cloud and company fight Sephiroth, and Cloud fights not only for his memories and the memories of the other party members, but the memory of Aeris as well. As stated before, she was his dear friend, she was someone whom he would never forget, much like Zack. This is how I viewed the ending. When everybody groups together, they attack Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, in a climatic battle that would decide the fate of the world (as cliche and dramatic as that may sound). And they succeed. Sephiroth is defeated by everyone in the party... except for Cloud.
Now I firmly believe that Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy VII are two seperate stories with no connection. Kingdom Hearts is an alternate universe and a bonus for the fans. But one thing I will agree on, that does in some way tie Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy VII together is the fact that Sephiroth is Cloud's darkness. He is the dark side of Cloud, he is something Cloud cannot forget or perhaps escape. Sephiroth is a deep, dark memory in Cloud's subconsciousness that has haunted him for years, ever since he was that Shinra soldier that returned home to Nibelheim. The final battle of the game, the ultimate battle in Final Fantasy VII is between Cloud and Sephiroth. Cloud seems to pass into a dreamlike state, where he is pulled through time, space, into nothing but absolute darkness where Sephiroth waits.
On his way there, Aeris's theme plays. That seems to be pure symbolism to me. Aeris's theme played when she had died, it played when the materia fell into the water and when her body was buried in the lake. Her death seemed to be the last straw for Cloud. Sephiroth had taken everything from him: his home, his friend, his mother, and almost his sanity. When Sephiroth took Aeris from Cloud, that seemed to be what triggered him off. He knew he had to finish it once and for all, he knew he had to defeat Sephiroth and make him pay for all that he had taken from Cloud. Aeris's theme plays for two reasons: one, possibly to symbolize the crisis that was going on. The world was still on the brink of collapse, and that was something everyone, even Aeris herself, did not want to happen. Two, was to remind Cloud of not only the fate of the world, but also what had happened to Aeris. To remind him that she was gone, just like Zack, just like his home, just like his mother. And that was all Cloud needed to remember, all he needed to have with him. And when he sees Sephiroth in the darkness, his eyes are focused and he is ready to fight.
Cloud battles Sephiroth, in the darkest part of his subconsciousness. And when Sephiroth is defeated, that was when Cloud sees the light. The Lifestream wraps around him, and light begins to shine in the darkness. That is when Cloud looks up and sees Aeris's hand reaching out to him. He smiles and reaches for the light, reaches for Aeris's hand. Many may have thought that this meant he wanted to be with her. He wanted to go into the Lifestream and stay with Aeris, now that Sephiroth was taken care of.
I like to think of it as Aeris guiding him into the light. She was leading him out of his darkness, and once he made it out, Aeris's hand vanishes and Tifa is there, reaching out for him. Aeris is a wonderful friend for Cloud. She knows that he has friends waiting for him in the real world, friends that love him and would be deeply saddened if he was to leave them. Aeris is not a selfish character, she wouldn't want Cloud to stay with her if it meant hurting the people who loved him, especially Tifa. The way I see it is that Cloud did not nessisarily "choose" life over death. I think that was the last thing on his mind. What he did was choose light over darkness. Sephiroth was gone now, so there was no need to linger there. The light was coming back into his heart, and Aeris hand was reaching out for him. She might have been asking him to come with her, not into the Lifestream, but back to life itself. That is why Tifa's hand appears when Cloud enters the light and wakes up from unconsciousness. That is why Aeris controls Holy and saves the world.
For her friends to live. For Cloud to go on living with his friends.
Cloud and Aeris had a very strong friendship. They gave so much to each other, they showed each other so many things and went out of their way to help one another. Although it wasn't meant for them to be together, although calling them lovers would be too farfetched, what they had was real. What they had was good enough. Friendship, companionship and benevolence was what they had, and I think the true fans of their relationship are capable of seeing that.
WARNING, VERY LONG
The very first time Cloud and Aeris met in Final Fantasy VII, there was no doubt an almost instant bond between the two. Some call it love at first sight, others call it the start of a beautiful friendship. But there is no doubt in my mind that, in just the first few seconds of meeting each other, Cloud and Aeris were both destined to become very important people in each other's lives. That right there is a proven fact. Even if Cloud and Aeris were not destined to become lovers, they did have a huge impact on each others' lives.
Like most friendships begin, it all starts with just a simple act of kindness towards another person. The sweet and sociable girl speaks to an outcast whose no doubt had his share of hardships in the past. In return, that cold, lonely person makes her smile by buying a flower from her. Who would have thought that just one act of kindness would be the start of something unforgettable? In the case of Cloud and Aeris, they met each other, exchanged a few kind words, and then were on their way. I'm sure the two of them didn't expect to run into each other again, as Cloud states back at the 7th Heaven, that once he got the job done, that he was going to leave. I'm sure his meeting with the flowergirl, at that point, wasn't his top concern. For Aeris however, he obviously made some sort of impression.
Going into the most common idea shared amongst the majority of Cloud/Tifa fans, I personally believe that the impact was definately the Mako eyes Cloud had, which no doubt reminded Aeris of her old boyfriend. That would be one logical explaination as to how Aeris would remember one of her costumers who bumped into her on the streets. Perhaps at first, she was uncertain of this character who showed up with Mako eyes right after a bomb went off. But when he didn't try to hurt her or kidnap her for the Shinra company's sake, and instead spoke to her and bought a flower, that's possibly what left an impression (and then, of course, the memory of Zack came shortly afterwards).
The way I see it, Cloud saw Aeris as someone who was delicate and vulnerable. She wasn't a typical damsel in distress, and she wasn't completely helpless. The girl was persistant and she had spunk, and was fairly happy, spirited and lively. But even so, she was always outnumbered and surrounded by a bad crowd. The Shinra were always after her, she always had a run-in with the Turks. And even though she claimed that she was used to it, he looked at her as a girl who needed his protection. Aeris knew that she couldn't keep running away from the Shinra, and that sooner or later they would get ahold of her. Perhaps the reason she was so close to Cloud was because she knew that he could take care of her and protect her, and if she was caught by the Shinra, that he could save her. And seeing that Cloud managed to get her out of the church, away from the Shinra soldiers, and even rescue her when she was held captive in the Shinra Headquarters, he lived up to her expectations, and that in turn made her grow very fond of him.
With that said, it's no doubt that one would think, "Since he seems to want to protect her so much, and since she needed someone to look out for her, then that would be a good way to start a romantic relationship". I personally thought that myself. But you have to take a few things into mind, first being that Cloud is still a hired mercenary who is doing a job for a client. The second is that the two, even though they had that almost instant bond, are still strangers. The two of them played that "it's just a job" excuse off rather well, which is perhaps Cloud's excuse for looking out for her. In Aeris' case, she turns the job excuse into a way to flirt with Cloud, such as the "It was only for one date, after all!". It's obvious that after he went out of his way to save her from the Turks, Hojo, and the others at the Shinra company, that Aeris was flattered by that. She doesn't seem to have many friends apart from the two kids at the church (who take care of her flowers when she's not there). So when she has a complete stranger put himself in some pretty tough situations for her sake, when he could have just as easily left her to rot, that would no doubt make her attached to this person. One could assume that, asside from Zack, Cloud was Aeris' first actual friend.
And it would be easy to believe that as well. She doesn't seem to be used to people going out of their way to help her. She does act rather stunned when Barret defends her in the Shinra Headquarters, even though they had never met before. You could also say that, asside from Cloud rescuing her a couple times at the beginning of the game, that her closeness and fondness of Cloud could originate from the fact that once Cloud stepped into her life, he brought several new and interesting people along with him. Through him, Aeris was able to make new friends and visit places that she probably thought that she would never see in her life. She was able to talk to people, interact with others, and live out each day without hiding or being afraid that she was going to get taken to some laboratory. And all because of one person who decided to buy a flower from her one night.
But also keep in mind that the two are still strangers. There are still a lot of mysteries about Cloud that Aeris wanted to solve. I have no doubt in my mind that Aeris was attracted to Cloud, and that she did have a crush on him, but that is to be expected. If someone did so much for you, I'm sure you would be attracted to them as well. Yet you cannot call their relationship a deep and passionate one, for in the short time they shared together, there was still a lot about each other that they did not know. Aeris didn't know the real Cloud in her lifetime, just as Cloud did not know everything about Aeris' culture or past. That was something she wanted to find out on their date together. Aeris no doubt was interested in Cloud, she liked him very much, but she didn't want to be with someone who was just another Zack.
Let me rephrase that, if I must. To Aeris, she knew that Cloud and Zack were two different people. Even if they shared the same personalities, she did not want to be with someone when she was still in love with someone else. That is why she wanted to get to know Cloud better, the part that didn't remind her of Zack, AKA the real Cloud. As for Cloud, Aeris was no doubt someone he enjoyed being around. He did not want to cause her any trouble, and he did want to make her happy when she was upset. The scene at Cosmo Canyon is proof of that. He sits down beside her, she feels upset and lonely, and he tries to comfort her. When he says "But I... we're here for you", I think that was Cloud realizing that he did like her very much, but didn't want to rush into things. The two were still strangers, and perhaps saying that he alone was there for her would offend some of the other party members, or maybe even make things harder on Aeris herself. Aeris, in response, tries to cheer him up. Cloud, although he isn't as dark and cynical as others try to make him out to be, isn't the cheeriest person in the world. If Aeris isn't in your party when you run along the traintracks, she cheers him on and wishes him luck. She teases him when he does something silly. She flirts with him to lighten him up a bit. The two obviously don't want each other to be unhappy, and that's what I like about their relationship as friends.
Which then brings me to the Temple of the Ancients scene. It's a very controversial scene indeed. Fans of Tifa state that it was rude of Aeris to start flirting with Cloud infront of Tifa, while fans of Aeris use this as proof to support their couple (with the whole fortune telling thing). I personally would have to disagree with both. For one, all is fair in love and war. Cloud was not officially "together" with Aeris or Tifa. He was not anybody's boyfriend or sweetheart at that point of the game. Two women were interested in him, and they put the moves on him from time to time. Things like that happen all the time. But getting back on track, I didn't exactly see it as Aeris trying to be cruel to Tifa. For one, I believe that she was trying to cheer up Cait Sith but letting him tell his fortunes before he sacrificed himself (somewhat). Cait Sith enjoyed telling fortunes, despite the fact that he wasn't very good at them, and Aeris figured that it would be something nice to do for him. At the same time, she wanted to flirt with Cloud a bit, probably teasing him. I personally don't think the fortune telling or anything was by all means serious if you want my honest opinion. Aeris wanted to make Caith Sith happy while flirting with Cloud at the same time, but since she wasn't absolutely in love with Cloud, she was most likely playing around (rather then being serious about fortunes and if their stars match). As an added bonus, Cait Sith made that "Poor Tifa" comment, probably teasing her (which would most likely explain why she turned around all embarassed, because he was somewhat fronting her feelings off to Cloud). That's the way I see it. Nothing extremely romantic or hurtful. Just a playful scene between friends.
The way I can describe Cloud and Aeris' relationship while she was alive is that it consisted mostly of friendly comments, gestures, light flirting and kidding around. Aeris no doubt had a crush on Cloud, but going so far as to say that their relationship was in depth and had meaning as far as romance goes is a little farfetched, for the two still knew very little about each other. Aeris's death was no doubt what destroyed any chance of her and Cloud being together romantically. It was a moment that Cloud would never forget and would not forgive himself for (and for a very long time, at that). It's completely understandable why he would feel that much pain though. Anybody would feel hurt if they watched their friend die right infront of them. And it's not an uncommon thing for someone to feel as if it was their fault, that they didn't do something to prevent it and keep it from happening. Ontop of that, it was Cloud's job to be Aeris' bodyguard, so that no doubt added onto the pain and pressure. That was why he broke down during that scene. His best friend was dead, he didn't do anything to prevent it (as far as he's concerned), and he was putting up with the shock of it all (hence the quote "She'll never laugh or cry or get angry...").
But when you get down to it, Cloud is not a selfish character. He would have reacted that way if it was anybody else who was close to him. If it was Tifa in Aeris' place, he certainly would have felt pain and sorrow. If it was Barret or Cid or Red XIII, he would have cried for them as well, especially if they died right infront of his eyes. Cloud had a truamatic past where he saw not only his best friend die (trying to save his life, ontop of that) but saw his hometown and his mother go up in flames. Death is a horrible thing that someone has to deal with, especially when it comes to someone who was young. So when Cloud saw yet another person die before his eyes, especially as close of a friend as Aeris was to him, he naturally went into a breakdown.
And yet it was Cloud himself that said that he had to move on. Clearly that is easier said then done. When he came to remember his friendship and past with Zack (and of course his untimely death), that plus Aeris' death seemed to pile up on him. If there is anything about Cloud that is certain, it's that he remembers everything. Even though his memory was scrambled, even though his past was a mystery, he did remember what happened in Nibelheim and then remembered what happened to Zack. And when Aeris fell at the hands of Sephiroth, he most certainly wouldn't forget about it.
The end of the game was something very special, in my opinion. Cloud and company fight Sephiroth, and Cloud fights not only for his memories and the memories of the other party members, but the memory of Aeris as well. As stated before, she was his dear friend, she was someone whom he would never forget, much like Zack. This is how I viewed the ending. When everybody groups together, they attack Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, in a climatic battle that would decide the fate of the world (as cliche and dramatic as that may sound). And they succeed. Sephiroth is defeated by everyone in the party... except for Cloud.
Now I firmly believe that Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy VII are two seperate stories with no connection. Kingdom Hearts is an alternate universe and a bonus for the fans. But one thing I will agree on, that does in some way tie Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy VII together is the fact that Sephiroth is Cloud's darkness. He is the dark side of Cloud, he is something Cloud cannot forget or perhaps escape. Sephiroth is a deep, dark memory in Cloud's subconsciousness that has haunted him for years, ever since he was that Shinra soldier that returned home to Nibelheim. The final battle of the game, the ultimate battle in Final Fantasy VII is between Cloud and Sephiroth. Cloud seems to pass into a dreamlike state, where he is pulled through time, space, into nothing but absolute darkness where Sephiroth waits.
On his way there, Aeris's theme plays. That seems to be pure symbolism to me. Aeris's theme played when she had died, it played when the materia fell into the water and when her body was buried in the lake. Her death seemed to be the last straw for Cloud. Sephiroth had taken everything from him: his home, his friend, his mother, and almost his sanity. When Sephiroth took Aeris from Cloud, that seemed to be what triggered him off. He knew he had to finish it once and for all, he knew he had to defeat Sephiroth and make him pay for all that he had taken from Cloud. Aeris's theme plays for two reasons: one, possibly to symbolize the crisis that was going on. The world was still on the brink of collapse, and that was something everyone, even Aeris herself, did not want to happen. Two, was to remind Cloud of not only the fate of the world, but also what had happened to Aeris. To remind him that she was gone, just like Zack, just like his home, just like his mother. And that was all Cloud needed to remember, all he needed to have with him. And when he sees Sephiroth in the darkness, his eyes are focused and he is ready to fight.
Cloud battles Sephiroth, in the darkest part of his subconsciousness. And when Sephiroth is defeated, that was when Cloud sees the light. The Lifestream wraps around him, and light begins to shine in the darkness. That is when Cloud looks up and sees Aeris's hand reaching out to him. He smiles and reaches for the light, reaches for Aeris's hand. Many may have thought that this meant he wanted to be with her. He wanted to go into the Lifestream and stay with Aeris, now that Sephiroth was taken care of.
I like to think of it as Aeris guiding him into the light. She was leading him out of his darkness, and once he made it out, Aeris's hand vanishes and Tifa is there, reaching out for him. Aeris is a wonderful friend for Cloud. She knows that he has friends waiting for him in the real world, friends that love him and would be deeply saddened if he was to leave them. Aeris is not a selfish character, she wouldn't want Cloud to stay with her if it meant hurting the people who loved him, especially Tifa. The way I see it is that Cloud did not nessisarily "choose" life over death. I think that was the last thing on his mind. What he did was choose light over darkness. Sephiroth was gone now, so there was no need to linger there. The light was coming back into his heart, and Aeris hand was reaching out for him. She might have been asking him to come with her, not into the Lifestream, but back to life itself. That is why Tifa's hand appears when Cloud enters the light and wakes up from unconsciousness. That is why Aeris controls Holy and saves the world.
For her friends to live. For Cloud to go on living with his friends.
Cloud and Aeris had a very strong friendship. They gave so much to each other, they showed each other so many things and went out of their way to help one another. Although it wasn't meant for them to be together, although calling them lovers would be too farfetched, what they had was real. What they had was good enough. Friendship, companionship and benevolence was what they had, and I think the true fans of their relationship are capable of seeing that.
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Um wow. Very long indeed. But yeah, exactly my thoughts...Aeris and Cloud had a very special relationship, as well as Cloud and Tifa did...but Square mainly left the rest to the players' imagination. Like, "Did Cloud love Tifa or Aeris more?" We don't exactly know for sure. But I know that Aeris was in love with Zack and since Cloud pretended to be like Zack in the beginning (claiming he made it as a Soldier), Aeris' feelings were a tad bit confused and wanted to know more about Cloud. Also, he reminded her of Zack.
But yeah, I think that Cloud's guilt had a major part in the story. Some say that his guilt for Aeris' death is what confuses people's views for the Cloud-Aerith relationship. But well, I really do think that Cloud liked her genuinely. And he liked Tifa as well, even though they seemed like they were just close friends. He just couldn't choose between the two. Now, with Aeris' gone, Square left it as, "Ok, there's a possibility that Cloud and Tifa could be together now" but hey, they didn't elaborate on that one, did they? Nope. They simply left it as it is: "Leave it to the player's imagination."
But yeah, I think that Cloud's guilt had a major part in the story. Some say that his guilt for Aeris' death is what confuses people's views for the Cloud-Aerith relationship. But well, I really do think that Cloud liked her genuinely. And he liked Tifa as well, even though they seemed like they were just close friends. He just couldn't choose between the two. Now, with Aeris' gone, Square left it as, "Ok, there's a possibility that Cloud and Tifa could be together now" but hey, they didn't elaborate on that one, did they? Nope. They simply left it as it is: "Leave it to the player's imagination."
That girl got herself banned, so I wouldn't worry or waste my time reading her threads. Mitsuki, I love you for that post! LOL! It was all left to the player's imagination, but if you've read the novelizations that were made, you'd also know that Aerith wasn't confused by the time she and Cloud had their date. She saw the Zack in him, but she also saw the Cloud in him as well. After she died and went into the Lifestream, she realized then that she loved Cloud more than she ever loved Zack and I truly believe that Cloud did love and still does love her. Have you watched the interviews with the makers of the film? Nojima stated that while Aerith has forgiven Cloud, a small burden was lifted off of Cloud, yes, but he's nowhere near fully redeemed. Cloud still has a long, hard road ahead of him to learn to forgive himself for letting her die. Also if you've watched the end of the movie when Cloud is on his bike, he's riding out to the yellow flower field, Aerith is there waiting for him. When it shows the image of the family portraits on his desk, there are also pictures of the flower field tacked up all over the wall behind them, pictures of that field strewn all over his desk and a flower picked from that field in front of the photo. While Tifa and Cloud knew each other during their childhood, they were never "close friends" like a lot of Clotis like to say. Cloud and Aerith shared something special and according to the Reunion Files, she is still by his side. I'm a Clerith and will always be a Clerith. Though sure there is a possiblity that Cloud and Tifa could end up together since Aerith is gone physically, I feel that Cloud's heart still belongs to Aerith. *shrugs* Just my opinion.
Wow. Since this is not a debate thread, I will only post my opinion and a few thoughts on the mentioned. IMO I see a Cloud/Tifa relationship. Why? He lives with Tifa, for one. Yeah, there's the whole aeris thing which I'll refer to Rose on this. (she's gotta point, and i've never heard it described better.) But that's debating ground. So I won't go there.
However I must reply to what LA said about the field and the flowers on the desk. I saw it as being symbolic of Aeris still being there. Flowers in front of the group picture; it completes the picture. The group is still whole even though one of them is 'dead'. (I don't know. Pretty lively for a dead person lol) And I don't think Aeris is 'waiting' for cloud. That's a huge assumption there. I saw it as, again, showing that she is still there, that she isn't gone. That's how I saw it. I thought it was done well.
and I fail to see how cloud has a 'long hard road' ahead of him. Everything is cool. He doesn't have to cope with deadfriend guilt. He'll probably be reknown for saving Edge. That means publicity. Publicity means good buisness. And yet, there's more torment stored for him in the future. Can't people leave the poor man alone?
whoever said that 'long hard road' thing should be shot. In the face. With a hammer. (it takes a hammer launcher to do it, but it can be done. Fear the flying hammer.)
*the hammer thing is a joke, btw.*
However I must reply to what LA said about the field and the flowers on the desk. I saw it as being symbolic of Aeris still being there. Flowers in front of the group picture; it completes the picture. The group is still whole even though one of them is 'dead'. (I don't know. Pretty lively for a dead person lol) And I don't think Aeris is 'waiting' for cloud. That's a huge assumption there. I saw it as, again, showing that she is still there, that she isn't gone. That's how I saw it. I thought it was done well.
and I fail to see how cloud has a 'long hard road' ahead of him. Everything is cool. He doesn't have to cope with deadfriend guilt. He'll probably be reknown for saving Edge. That means publicity. Publicity means good buisness. And yet, there's more torment stored for him in the future. Can't people leave the poor man alone?
whoever said that 'long hard road' thing should be shot. In the face. With a hammer. (it takes a hammer launcher to do it, but it can be done. Fear the flying hammer.)
*the hammer thing is a joke, btw.*
I thought the movie definently showed more Cleris. Cloud didn't even seem to like Tifa all that much through the movie. She seemed to be the annoying girlfriend that won't leave her ex alone. And they didn't really seem to have any chemistry.
The last scene in the movie almost confirmed Cleris for me. That look Cloud gives her is priceless.
The last scene in the movie almost confirmed Cleris for me. That look Cloud gives her is priceless.
The actual WRITER and CREATORS said that Cloud still has a long hard road ahead of them, so I guess you're implying that they should be shot in the face?
sinspawn3
ShinRa Guard
definitely cleris. They seem like they relate alot more than cloti because cloud loves aeris, not tifa. That's proven at the end of ff7 when tifa says, yeah, lets go see her, as in aeris!
Yes indeed. With a hammer. Honestly, now they're just milking it. They're torturing the story and the characters to make money, and that ticks me off. After all the crap Cloud went through, apparently there's more on the way. Stop torturing the poor man, will ya? The inconclusive thread of the story is streching thin.
And I also wanted to add: The question of that this thread poses is going to recieve answers that have been influenced by the persons opinion of who the like better. Once you sit down and look at it, there's evidence to support both sides.
On one side you have: Cloud lives with Tifa. Tifa is wearing his ring. They're taking care of orphans together.
On the other side: Cloud has lived in the church for some time. He's beating himself up over Aeris' death. He apparently can't move on without knowing that he's been forgiven by Aeris.
So you see, there's evidence in the movie to support both arguments. It's not a matter of 'what did you see?' but rather 'what did you choose to see?'. This movie shows both relationships. So, in conclusion, I say, both relationships are shown in the movie. Not enough to outweigh the other, however, just like in the game. It's all meant to keep you hanging.
They're not milking it and I don't think they're going to further Cloud's story. They have way too many other projects going on and furthering Cloud's story is taking it entirely too far. I think Square knows this. I'm just going by what the creators said during the interview in the 2nd disc. Basically it's going to take Cloud time to fully forgive himself for allowing Aerith to die because of the feelings he had for her. He feels like he failed as her bodyguard and to protect her IMO
With the kids, more like Tifa is taking care of them on her own considering Cloud left from the grief, remorse and the terminal illness he had thinking he was going to die.
You do know that Barret also has a wolfie ring and Denzel is wearing a wolfie ring around his neck. Tifa is wearing a wolfie ring on her RIGHT hand. There's a huge difference there. She's not "wearing Cloud's ring" More like she's wearing a ring that Cloud obviously gave as gifts to certain people.
Your conclusion is right, but it all comes down to a matter of opinion. Nothing is canon and I don't think it ever will be. That's the way Square intended upon it being.
Oh, if there's one steady thing about entertainment, it's that a good thing never dies/ends. They'll pick up on it. But probably in a different form. Not a game or movie, more like a book, a real book, or something. They'll get bacck to it eventually. And where on the second disc was this interview? I heard nothing of the like.
And, Cloud has 'forgiven' himself during the movie. That's what the movie was about. He's gotten over it, moved on. Forgiveness has been given. He don't need to angst any longer. There's no reason why there's more crap in store for him.
You've read CoT? Ah, well, actually, Cloud left later on during the two years. At the 'end' of the two years,(close to the beginning of the movie), was when Cloud started to really drift. Barret doesn't have a wolf ring. I don't know about Denzel, I don't like him. And I know Tifa is wearing it on her right hand. But the fact is, she is WEARING CLOUD'S RING. Not an engagement ring, nononono. More like a....friendship ring or something similar.
oh, those tricksy gits at SE. Gotta hate em for the whole war, and ya gotta love em for the game.
Barret doesn't have a wolfie ring? Well then I suppose it must have materialized out of nowhere then... Check out this picture here I scanned from my Reunion Files.
Barret's Wolfie Ring
Show me exact proof where it says Tifa is wearing Cloud's ring? Also Denzel has a wolf ring hanging around his neck on a chain. Pay close attention and you'll see it. I still have yet to see if anybody else has anything wolfie. Cloud must be pimpin it with Barret too =P It's not just Tifa, dear.
Not a war in my eyes, just friendly debates =^_~=
Well, first off, you can't see the ring that well in the picture. Heck, it could be a skull. And second, consider Cloud's theme. His theme consists of wolves. The wolf shown in the movie. His bike is named Fenrir, which is, in Norse mythology, the wolf that will swallow the world at the end of Ragnarok. A wolf ring fits right into the mix. And since Tifa doesn't seem to be the one to wear much of any jewelery, much less rings, she wears this wolf ring. Where would she aquire such an ring? Cloud. Which would explain why she wears it all the time.
and yeah it's not a war, but in some places it sure seems like it, lol.Show me exact proof where it says Tifa is wearing Cloud's ring? Also Denzel has a wolf ring hanging around his neck on a chain. Pay close attention and you'll see it. I still have yet to see if anybody else has anything wolfie. Cloud must be pimpin it with Barret too =P It's not just Tifa, dear.
Edit: sorry this post is messed up, but I can't paste anything on this forum. So I couldn't fix it without erasing everything I wrote.
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