how would you feel if this happened to you?

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

I actually know pretty well how this feels--I'm not a charismatic personality by nature but I have always been highly creative, and that has led to me developing many ideas with very specific goals in mind only to have someone else take over and spin things off into a wildly different direction so that the end result doesn't look anything like what I intended--and sometimes it has even still bore my name and been rather embarrassing since it's no longer really mine and not something I'd necessarily stand for.

But here's the thing: I was a kid.

Yes I know what it feels like, but I also know the telltale signs of when it's going to happen, and as an adult I'd either clear my name of the project and let people do what they want or stand my ground and maintain control. Now if you throw in business politics this may or may not be possible, and if not then yeah, it would be a frustrating place to be. But it's also expected. If you're in any type of creative industry and can't handle having your babies raised by other people, you probably won't last long in the industry. When you make an IP that gets big enough, you sell it. You sell it to a company who will let you have influence over it if possible, but you better be prepared for them to leave you behind. And when that happens you better be prepared to pick up some other idea you've got and pursue that instead. That's just the way the industry works, and it's not necessarily as evil as it sounds. You talk a lot about Tetsuya Nomura, but what about Hironobu Sakaguchi? He's the father of the entire series and watched it drift further and further outside his guidance. But at the same time, if he had remained in control of the series, would we have Final Fantasy XV or Versus XIII at all? Probably not.

As a creator, your goal should be to create IP that attracts fans who can rise up and carry on the IP without you. That's the only way to give your IP true longevity.

Now, as for Nomura, the situation with him and FFXV is not as depressing as you think. He even said himself that he was surprised to see fans acting like Square Enix booted him off the project. When it was decided to switch Versus XIII into a main series title, Nomura did the ground work and then left to focus on Kingdom Hearts III. He had a job and finished it. I'm sure FFXV has evolved greatly since the work he did, but Nomura's not the martyr you're making him out to be on this one.

This, this, and sooo much this. Being an illustrator, I myself also know what it's like -as an adult- to have to deal with this. And as @AuronX said, as an adult it's not the same... if you're actually acting like an adult. Are there times where you can feel screwed? Yeah. Can it kinda suck sometimes? Yeah. But it's also your own fault if you're not prepared in some way.

There are three core problems with turning Nomura into a martyr:

1. He should know how this works already, and know that such removal is a possibility. So he should prepare his mind for the idea that he might have to give up some control at some point. This is not at all an uncommon thing in any entertainment industry. And guess what... 90% of the time it ends up just fine, because everyone involved is an adult. A lot of the time it's even planned from the beginning, because of conflicts in time management (kind of like now, with Kingdom Hearts stuff also needing work done). The rare controversial version of this happening seems much more common, because it's the only news worthy one that people talk about. But that's not actually the case. It would be like only ever seeing tigers in your life, and assuming they must be the most plentiful animal on earth, despite other people telling you that they're endangered. Stupid example right? Lol.

2. If he's a real team player, he should know that this isn't ever solely his vision. Nomura is not a God. Sakaguchi is not a God. Kojima is not a God. They can only get something great done, with the skill of many, many other people. They understand this. These projects are not their vision alone. Adding one person to the mix doesn't always change much, even if they're in a leadership position. Why? Because the team is just as important as the leader.

3. A truly great leader builds his/her team up to work great without him/her. In working on a team, you should always be striving to get everyone to see a unified, passionate vision. When one person has a weakness, someone else needs to make up for that weakness. The best way to make a great product, is to build everyone up to be great. Most of the time, this is the only way to make a great product. So a good leader will usually end up with a team that can make a great product without them.

As everyone has said multiple times, there is no way to know what the game might have been in other circumstances. Realistically, the information we had for the 'old version' of XV was basically nothing. It's really strange to me that you're forcing yourself to get so upset by stuff you know nothing about. You're ruining your own outlook on this game, based on what? A few pieces of rumor or early ideas that don't make it in? If only you knew just how much changes in the development of a game. They're rarely anything like the early visions, or even the mid development visions. You don't know whether Nomura's vision was really solid or not anyway. Out of all this game is shaping up to be, we maybe had access to about .01% of all the plans they had. That's basically nothing. We simply don't know how the game would have ended up. But most importantly, we don't know what state the game will actually be in when it's finished. It could be absolutely fantastic. Are you really willing to ruin your experience with it, just so you can cry over the loss of someone who doesn't even seem to be crying themselves?

Evidence dictates that the situation is the opposite of what you want to assume. The split seems to have been more than amicable, and all of Nomura's work was purportedly already done. The game seems to be in great shape. And as I said up top, Nomura is notorious for over-working concepts when he's in a leadership role the entire time anyway, meaning even from a what-if perspective, it's easier to argue this is a good thing than a bad thing anyway. So why would anyone assume that this is a bad thing? Why worry over a situation that seems to be the opposite of what's actually happened?

By asking such a question as you are, and complaining essentially about nothing, you're devaluing the work everyone else on this team has done; you're inadvertently giving Nomura credit for basically everything positive in the creation of this project. If you really wanted this project to succeed, you would first and foremost support Tabata and the rest of the team, not worry about Nomura's feelings. He's a big boy. So if I were to answer your question... I would feel fine if I was in his shoes. I've been in his shoes, I'm an adult, and I know to expect this sort of thing. I don't have teams work for me. I work with teams, in the hopes that if I have to step back, they can make a great project without me. I respect their skills, and know that I'm not the center of the universe.

 

[.Mosh]

By asking such a question as you are, and complaining essentially about nothing, you're devaluing the work everyone else on this team has done; you're inadvertently giving Nomura credit for basically everything positive in the creation of this project. If you really wanted this project to succeed, you would first and foremost support Tabata and the rest of the team, not worry about Nomura's feelings. He's a big boy. So if I were to answer your question... I would feel fine if I was in his shoes. I've been in his shoes, I'm an adult, and I know to expect this sort of thing. I don't have teams work for me. I work with teams, in the hopes that if I have to step back, they can make a great project without me. I respect their skills, and know that I'm not the center of the universe.

i wasn't going to quote the whole thing but it is a wonderful post and I agree with you completely. I want to be a content creator myself my problem being motivation but if I were in his shoes I would feel the same way as you and Auron have posted. I guess not everyone feels the same way and will nitpick to the day we die.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

i wasn't going to quote the whole thing but it is a wonderful post and I agree with you completely. I want to be a content creator myself my problem being motivation but if I were in his shoes I would feel the same way as you and Auron have posted. I guess not everyone feels the same way and will nitpick to the day we die.

I totally understand why Razberry Knight feels that way. It's easy to see this as the project being ripped from Nomura's hands, and turned into a shell of what it might have become. If there was 100% definitive proof of this being the case -and if XV turned out to be a terrible game- I would be just as upset. But I just don't have the information to come to that conclusion. So I have to base my thoughts on what I do know, which leads me in the opposite direction.

As far as being an unmotivated, potential content creator, what kind of stuff are we talking about? I'm always interested in hearing about other people's creative pursuits Obviously, if that's too off topic for a thread like this, feel free to shoot me a PM, or we could start a thread about it, or whatever. Or not; your call, lol.

 

[AuronX]

This, this, and sooo much this. Being an illustrator, I myself also know what it's like -as an adult- to have to deal with this.

I should maybe have clarified that by 'kid' I meant 'teenager'--so really it hasn't been that long for me, I was just one of those people that did most of their growing up between 18 and 20

But yeah, same thing applies and I appreciate you taking the time to write out such a detailed response. Hit the nail on the head.

I'm always interested in hearing about other people's creative pursuits Obviously, if that's too off topic for a thread like this, feel free to shoot me a PM, or we could start a thread about it, or whatever. Or not; your call, lol.

Definitely beyond the intended scope of this thread/section, but I'd be happy to have a conversation. Take your pick in Spira for wherever sounds most appropriate for the type of thread you want to start

 

[Razberry Knight]

ZaXo Ken'Ichi

MISCONCEPTION #1

The biggest misconception is basically over simplifying the message I was conveying. All the little details I added in was for a reason. It happened EXACTLY as I said it. Tetsuya Nomura left to work on other projects and it was a mutual departure. He actually did try to prep hajime tabata on other story bits and characters before he left. And it was reported that Noctis was very important to him. AND IT SHOWS
The issue rises AFTER his departure. There was a moment where all they had to do was ask for advise or ask him and I'll clarify this more on other misconceptions.

MISCONCEPTIONS #2

YES, all things are a team effort. What you try to simplify is that others should take the reigns of concept, story, and character design because teamwork sake. just like final fantasy vii is clearly a work of tetsuya nomura despite not actually ever directing it before, why? Because he contributed enough to the universe and lore and other concepts. Even the most seasoned ff developer has admitted to it.

But regardless this project started as "his project". It wasn't Square Enix coming to Nomura and saying "hey we need this type of game". Its the other way around. You have to understand Ffv13 began as a project he wanted to pursue, not Se. If Se wanted it we would've happened by now.

We would've received ff v13 during ps3 era. So yes there was a team, he was still director and at that time it was never their intention to move him to another project. And I don't see why mentioning a team changes anything. You make it seem like he wasn't a team player. Or you think it's OK for someone else to take control make the changes they wwnt to do for teamwork sake. Which I don't see a reason why they couldn't advised him for the biggest change and at least gain his input.

MISCONCEPTION #3 AND #4

the Controversy of change in lead developer is common. guarantee you it's not. It hapoens but the most common thing to happen is a work gets cancelled. Other times Co directors are signed in to balance it. Other times work on a whole new project.

Also preparation. Tetsuya Nomura was prepared. He prepared Hajime Tabata to follow his vision. That was reported, but tjings changed from when he left in 2013 to Q4 of 2014 when Hajime Tabata tried to use gamescon as the re-reveal and ended up disappointing many. What changed was that the higher ups asked the dev team for a different more mainstream numbered ff then what was given. Many rumored it was to remove all FNC elements. And this is where common sense just hits the fan.

If you seen the structure Square Enix production teams work, you know there's leeway. Motomu Toriyama wasnt developing Dissidia, and yet he received special thanks for helping in some of the idea process.

WHY THIS DOESN'T ADD UP: To WHAT YOU THINK IT IS

Hajime Tabata is either ignorant or arrogant. He can't be neither. he can be one of those or both.

He pursued the original writer for ffxv for clarity? The question is why? As a writer in the development team, he was working to it with nomuras intentions and vision for what the game supposed to be. So I don't understand why he asked for his input if the outcome was going to be exactly how it turned out. Which was just saying "so long as you did your best".

But issues raised even more. The changes just don't work. Everything was to accommodate the idea of ffxv being a numbered ff. It has to meet criteria. You ffxv fans know exactly what I'm talking about.


And of course we have changes that ever needed to happen (Regis). And as I look at the Uncovered trailer, my feelings for the old design are reinforced.



YOU WONT FEEL THAT WAY UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE IT.

I just know you haven't experienced anything close. maybe similar? But not close. Ive written works before. Keep in mind, I had my work been edited and changed without my discretion and been labeled only as a concept writer when I worked my butt off to them. These pieces, I wasn't contracted to share to them. I wasn't assigned to write a story. These were pieces that I wrote and sought out of my own accord. if it we're any situation we're I had to write about them and then I was moved to another project, I wouldn't care.

And no this isn't name change, or fixing typos. I saw an entirely different beginning and slightly altered ending but it missed the point of the story. And the question I keep asking is "why didn't they just ask me to change it?". Thats what pisses me off. If they wanted to achieve something else then allow me to change it.

If it had to change then it had to change. that goes for ffxv. and i cant argue that. But it could've been handled far more efficiently. And trust me, silence and avoidance speaks larger than confronting it.



HOW SE COULD'VE EASILY FIXED THE ISSUE

Ask for tetsuya Nomuras opinion. The father of FF is huge. I value his opinion. But, i have a more nostalgic respect for him. I havent seen him work on anything relatively new that reallyy challenged Ff. i value nomuras in this specific situation because it was his concept. Not on game play, not on story, maybe on characters. If just the new concept or changes we're approved by Nomura or at least to his liking. I would openly in a heartbeat give it a real chance. Because this game started off as his project for his vision. How can people forget where this game comes from?

AuronX don't you remember? You've been here long enough.







Honestly you can make look naiive. The fact Se has had more than equal opportunity to address it the easiest way possible tells me otherwise. Thats why this so called conjecture is a certainty.

 

[AuronX]

I do remember, but to be honest I was never that enthused about Versus XIII when it showed up at E3 a couple times in its early years. It looked interesting, sure, but I never understood why so many people were desperate for the game like it was the best thing to ever happen to Final Fantasy. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, we were never shown enough to conclude either way. Which is still true--concluding that Versus XIII would have been superior to XV is impossible.

Here's a compilation of everything we ever saw of Final Fantasy Versus XIII. Notice how the early teaser scene is almost identical to the city we see at the end of Platinum Demo. Notice how at the 12:00 mark we see Noctis running through a vast, open world and even visiting a gas station very similar to what we have in XV. We see him fighting Behemoth with a similar moveset. We see a realtime day-night cycle. We see a battle on top of a flying ship with Aranea Highwind. For all we know XV will even have a similar dinner party scene. Sure, characters have gotten redesigns, names have been changed, gameplay elements have changed, the plot has evolved--but really, based on what evidence we have, XV looks to be pretty faithful to the spirit of Versus XIII. These types of changes are common to all major productions, we just don't normally get to watch them happen. Surely if you've done any amount of creative writing you'll have even gone through this process yourself--I know I do. Minor characters turn into major characters, protagonists turn into antagonists, little details turn into massive plot twists--that's just how it goes. Nomura is a veteran at this stuff, I'm sure he knows the process inside and out and isn't broken up about what Versus XIII turned into.

 

[Razberry Knight]

There's so any things you just don't understand about ffxv AuronX. Why we're people so enthusiastic? There we're plenty of reasons why. We we're in a place where all we had we're Final fantasy xiii games and a not-so-seasoned director talking how great he was. Before the xiii sequels we knew who was directing versus, who was the concept Creator and such. Tetsuya Nomura is well known for both since ff7 and kingdom hearts. But he was enthusiastically telling us how he was going to make this ff different from xiii. it was going to be closer to kingdom hearts style, which was good in our eyes.

The trailers for me showed me one key element that I have not seen since Hajime Tabata took over: natural REAL complex characters. Noctis was dark and shy. But look at the early scenes where we see Prompto and Gladiolus. He is completely different, he's more expressive and allows to be thrown around. Look at the scene where he talks to Stella, he tries to look cool but runs away in which Stella pushes her more extrovert personality onto him. its subtle but looks very real. Look at all the Regis scenes he looks like the villain but there are scenes where we see Noctis bonding with his father in a unique and NATURAL way.

So what has happened since then? I admit Noctis looks great and has that dark attitude. But I don't see a different side to him with his friends or rather he doesn't express it well. I don't see Regis anymore as that prominent. He feels more like a plot device and the same goes for Luna. I haven't seen Noctis react differently from the norm to these two characters personalities.



The "all" trailers don't give us Dawn which is the reintroduction to Ffxv and tell us the old ffxv is no longer here. Game play wise, sure it's as ffxv can be. Story? We have yet to gain anything. FFXV was versusxiii. It changed to xv being it's own thing and that was confirmed.

 

[AuronX]

I'd like to think this is more a problem with how FFXV has been advertised and less a problem with FFXV itself, which is what I've said since the Episode Duscae demo. That demo dropped us into the type of place you'd normally find a Chocobo to speed through in an older FF game. It gave us a taste of what we'll be spending the minority of our time doing in the game and thus impressions have been formed around that instead of what the game will actually be like. After the Uncovered event it seems clear that FFXV still has a huge story focus and a huge character focus, they're just not revealing all of it ahead of time--probably because of spoilers. I'm sure the details of the story have changed, since that much is obvious and like you said was confirmed by Tabata himself. But the overall outline and spirit of the story may well be very much the same. We will have to wait until September 30 to find out--or at least until Kingsglaive, which may shed some light as well. And that's all there is to it, really. Until then we can only debate over a game that never existed and a game we know very little about.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Missing the point AuronX. Im not arguing about quality.

 

[Rey]

Can I just barge in here and say quickly that this conversation makes it seem like Tabata completely ruined Nomura's vision when he never did anything of the sort? Everytime I read your posts, Razberry, and I'm sorry if this is blunt, but you make it feel like Nomura has been thrown under the bus or that SE cut him from the project without saying a word. I still dont understand you, and I know you hold a heavily negative opinion on Final Fantasy XV. If you did not like what you saw during the event, then I think it is time to pack your bags on this argument. FFXV is not your vision of Final Fantasy; your vision is what Nomura saw as versus xiii. We get it, and that vision is never coming back. It is now present in FFXV a little differently and even as a feature cgi film. Regis WAS DESIGNED again for the movie, Luna is going to be a strong character.... man, she stood up to a frickin Sea Monster, ffs. Why do you keep saying Luna is a plot device and not a character that we can familiarize ourselves with like Stella was?

 

[.Mosh]

Can I just barge in here and say quickly that this conversation makes it seem like Tabata completely ruined Nomura's vision when he never did anything of the sort? Everytime I read your posts, Razberry, and I'm sorry if this is blunt, but you make it feel like Nomura has been thrown under the bus or that SE cut him from the project without saying a word. I still dont understand you, and I know you hold a heavily negative opinion on Final Fantasy XV. If you did not like what you saw during the event, then I think it is time to pack your bags on this argument. FFXV is not your vision of Final Fantasy; your vision is what Nomura saw as versus xiii. We get it, and that vision is never coming back. It is now present in FFXV a little differently and even as a feature cgi film. Regis WAS DESIGNED again for the movie, Luna is going to be a strong character.... man, she stood up to a frickin Sea Monster, ffs. Why do you keep saying Luna is a plot device and not a character that we can familiarize ourselves with like Stella was?

Dont feed this baseless thread anymore it is just going round and round and round and we won't ever hit conclusion. I agree with you view, and everyone else. I can only slightly understand Raz but it's just constantly grasping at straws when facts have been put forward.

Lena Heady voicing her in the movie gives me faith of her as a character purely because Lena plays strong women and very complex.

Sean Bean as King Regis....guess the King will die purely cause it's Sean Bean.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Lunafreya Nox Fleuret


No I'm not making it seem or feel like that. The reality is Nomura left in good terms. Even when nomira left it was still HIS project. It came from his idea, he had goals with it. this thread is to remind people WHERE XV came from and why it's so drastically different from then.

After he left in GOOD TERMS. Everything was fine or so I thought. Because quickly after his departure, Se wanted a change in ffxv. And hajime Tabata.

I know I won't get exactly what I wanted out of versus. Thats not the problem. it was inevitable that it was going to change because you can't challenge the higher ups. BUT at the same time there was aneasy clear way of bringing that change. And that was making sure Nomura vision stayed in by simply just asking for his advice. And it shows so much more.

If you worked in an industry like this, you know what I'm talking about. You know silence says a lot more then speaking about it.

And it's so shallow to like Lunafreya just because she's going to fight Leviathan. You just don't get it. You don't get what makes a good character. If facing off a giant monster is what makes them entertaining and great, then I give up on the ff fan base (and I have.)
.Mosh honestly if you want to piss me off, you're succeeding.

 

[Shaissa]

Ok let me put it in another way... Back when XII was first announced Yasumi Matsuno was the main director of the game when it was first announced we had a trailer before Matsuno had to depart due to health reasons. Do you think his whole idea for XII was the same as the final project? Probably not. When one steps down from a big position like Director on the middle... or even in the early points of production things will change, characters design games and so on will change.
So when Nomura left to work on other projects (KHIII his main baby and FFVII remake) he realized that things were going change (especially since this was no longer Versus XIII.)
On top of that others stepped down from the project and many times the new or the "co" people have said they used the original stuff to help continue the development of the game. The other thing is we got little info about the Versus XIII minus a few details like "it is going be a much dark Final Fantasy" which I'm not sure if XV is going be darker or not, and on top of all that we knew even less about Stella minus what we saw in a trailer or were given... so when they dropped her for Luna, it might of been to protect what Nomura saw her as, out of respect.

Truth is we won't know the full details unless you work for Square-Enix and know all the ins and outs of the people there...

Also fyi since you said it is "shallow to like Luna for standing up to Leviathan" couldn't one say that liking Stella for....whatever reason is just as Shallow?

Yes silence says a lot, but I'm sure of Nomura was really that hugely upset or wanted XV to be his baby he would of never stepped down. There are many times in the video game and in other industries even the business industry when someone steps down things change a lot for better or worse, it is how it works.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

And it's so shallow to like Lunafreya just because she's going to fight Leviathan. You just don't get it. You don't get what makes a good character. If facing off a giant monster is what makes them entertaining and great, then I give up on the ff fan base (and I have.)

First thing's first, I would like to say that the Final Fantasy fan base often finds simple reasons to praise characters, as do most fanbases. Or does everyone like to forget that

Spoiler for FFVI

Spoiler

Kefka is supposedly the 'best villain in the series' for no other reason than that he succeeded in destroying the planet?

While it's true that a single act doesn't make for a good character, the traits we've seen for Luna so far are also indicators of a potentially deep/interesting character. Once again, we just don't know enough to decide either way, but evidence argues against you. Aside from that though, people can choose for themselves what's entertaining in a character. Tons of people hate characters like Rikku for their loud, spunky attitudes. But I actually find that really endearing and interesting. Does that inherently make her a good character? No. But can I still like her for it, and find it entertaining if I want? Yes I can. Does that make me wrong? No. If someone loves Luna for no reason other than that she can battle a giant water snake, then so be it. That's completely separate from the quality of the character, and shouldn't be a reason to 'give up on' anything.

I don't by any means mean to be disrespectful, but do you know what makes a great character? It seems that you've already decided Luna isn't one. But again, there's not near enough information to actually decide that, which would imply that you don't quite understand what makes a great character. I don't know whether she'll be good, nor whether any of the other characters will be. They all could be absolutely terrible. But implying that there's already a stance to take on them, simultaneously implies that you don't understand the nuance of creating a great character (it also contradicts your claim that this isn't about the quality of the game to you). And that's really what this whole conversation boils down to, is that there's not enough information to decide anything. You can continue to say otherwise, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[Razberry Knight]

Chip n Dale once again the common misconception is that Nomura stepped down at the moment things changed. Looking back we we're all reassured that the same vision of the original was being placed. All the ground work was done and more. Heck we shouldve received this game last year. But we didnt because they we're debating over the story for most of 2014.

But of course higher ups changed their minds on what ffxv should be, and for that one of the most important changes he was not apart of. And that's the controversy.

Lets make note that final fantasy xv controversy could have been solved by just giving us Nomuras honest opinion. I was told that someone who spoke with the translators kept saying everything was a legal issue. They could not talk about Stella and most importantly they could not share Nomuras opinion. heck they skipped nomura's opinion and went straight to the father of Ff as a PR stunt.
ZaXo Ken'Ichi you're admitting shallowness by saying you personally like a characterfor one physical aspect. And assuming everyone to like a character because of such tiny aspect. No, there are many reasons why people like Kefka, and that's because he brought something different previous ff characters didn't do. He had a personality and a bit of mystery.


Let me compare Luna to Stella. Lets look at all we know about Lunafreya Nox Fleuret. She had rough childhood, is a political figure and new Noctis since childhood and despite their arranged marriage to be a fake political stunt, they are indeed in love with each other. (PRINCE of Persia anyone?)

Lets look at what Se wants us to think about her in all the scenes provided. First off, the first time we see her is sitting down and acting princess like. The next time was her re-reveal and all she does is brush a gun away from a soldier who we knew wasn't going to shoot her. And then stand up and walks toward the camera. Then we see screenshots of her holding a flower.

Next we see her standing against Leviathan which is a bad as a moment. So judging from everything we've seen I can easily tell SE wants us to assume the weak princess role only to surprise us on how capable she is on her own.

But I don't care about that, weak or strong, doesnt matter. At least for me. Why? Because stella provided something far more interesting. How she impacts story and characters.

nomura's approach on stella was more show who she is before sharing what she will be doing in the story. And it works. We see an active conversation with the two and we see how the personalities mesh. If people dont get why that scene was exciting it was because for the first time we were seeing ff characters react to eachothers personalities.

so even if she was just some damsel in distress, i loved how she impacted the main character. But then the next trailer revealing us that shes intended to foght noctis as the main story gives room for more posibilities...

i wanted to see their personalities clash while they fought. How many ff characters actually do this without feeling forced?

And this is all based on trailers before. Lets compare the first time we see prompto and gladiolus and ignis interacting with noctis. It was completely silent but it looked real and we saw noctis mold to their personalities. But lets look at the Justice MonsteRs Five trailer. they all looked like they were talking over eachother. They may have their own personalities but i dont see them clashing, i dont see them working together in harmony. They just feel forced together.

 

[.Mosh]

I just re watched every thing from the Nomura era, including the dinner party scene obviously. For what little they talk about I can't see how it is overly exciting. Also Stella intending to fight noct well so what? We don't have either of their personalities at that point to know how they would clash. That scene could have started that way and a monster comes in and they duo fight or she might like noct and let him go but showed willingness. So many possibilities, just cause the latest FFXV don't show Luna with Noctis and conversing etc should t put anyone off. Maybe literally any scene with her and noctis besides that child sequence would be a spoiler we don't know.

In in regards to the boys they look pretty similar in the past to what they do now. Some trailers they don't even have audio but you have prompto being beaten about by gladius etc etc no different to what we see now. Actually I am glad they got some slight re design cause they looked rather plain especially prompto back then and Noctis looked like he was just wearing black tarp.

To be honest I think Luna shows more mystery than Stella even with that dinner sequence. It felt like they forced a notice me now and we will meet again impression which is completely cliche. It also doesn't make sense to have that scene and the scene where she looks like she's intending to fight it feels out of place.

Besides that looking at some of the old comments of people saying shame we will never see this game. It is at least 95% already in what we have scene in terms of combat, locations and characters. This thread is just becoming tedium at its finest.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

you're admitting shallowness by saying you personally like a characterfor one physical aspect. And assuming everyone to like a character because of such tiny aspect. No, there are many reasons why people like Kefka, and that's because he brought something different previous ff characters didn't do. He had a personality and a bit of mystery.

That's not at all my point. I didn't say that was my only reason for liking Rikku. And besides, even if that was the only reason, what's wrong with liking a character for shallow reasons? That is completely different from claiming a character is a good character for that single reason. As far as Kefka goes, I constantly hear people talking about how he's objectively better than the other villains because of that one single reason. If they like him for that, cool. But that doesn't make him the most well written/characterized.

 

[Razberry Knight]

That's not at all my point. I didn't say that was my only reason for liking Rikku. And besides, even if that was the only reason, what's wrong with liking a character for shallow reasons? That is completely different from claiming a character is a good character for that single reason. As far as Kefka goes, I constantly hear people talking about how he's objectively better than the other villains because of that one single reason. If they like him for that, cool. But that doesn't make him the most well written/characterized.

It makes you more bias, therefore you forfeit the argument by admitting theres something good.
.Mosh I don't think you get why I enjoy that scene. Also did you see the translation? Or did you just saw two people mouth words.

In that scene Noctis was staring out because he could see the "light" in which Stella from above was able to see him see the light. So when they had the chance to meet (or reunite since 2013 trailer suggests they were friends at childhood) and so they both share basic story info because of how they're connected. Also it wasn't forced considering that was their personalities. Stella was that type. Nomura confirmed it. Noctus was the pretty boy trying to act cool but failed.

The fact that we got a completely new scene where they're fighting rises questions. But that was exactly what was intended. Figuring out thw rest is actually meant for the game itself so we can see it. But let's remember that Stella was in a rivaling country.

Additionally I liked how much it reminded me of Final Fantasy XII, where characters didn't always had to be romantically involved. Characters like Stella and Noctus we're confirmed to just being friends which I think was a bold move.


But the point is back then, they focused on selling story bits. Real things to look forward to. It showed they concentrated on sharing certain aspects about the story.

In ffxv? We get them but the trailers that's not the focus. I did enjoy Noctis, but I don't see anyone actually shining in personality. Again...justice monsters five trailer how everything feels formulaic.

I know more about Luna then ever before and nothing appeals to me about her because she's one big plot device. She doesn't fit naturally before.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

It makes you more bias, therefore you forfeit the argument by admitting theres something good.

That makes no sense. That would mean that liking anything about anything will make you biased about that thing. Same with disliking anything about anything. So based on your idea, everyone would be so biased that they cannot give any fair critique of anything. But that's not the case. It's about being able to separate your bias out when you're critiquing. Just because you like something, doesn't mean you have to think that it's of a high quality. Nor is the opposite true. I like the idea for the leveling system in Final Fantasy II... it's still completely broken. I absolutely adore the Souls series (Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne), and yet I think their framerates are absolutely unacceptable on consoles, because I believe that if you're only going to go for 30fps, you'd better hit it 99% of the time. I really dislike playing Borderlands, because the way the gameplay is structured contradicts the statistical design of everything. But I still understand that the characters and the comedy are masterfully written a lot of the time.

People are multi-faceted, and liking or disliking something about a character, or a story, or gameplay, or whatever, doesn't suddenly mean you can't put your bias aside. The second someone starts interacting with a game in any way, they're building up bias. You just have to know how to ignore it. By your definition, you have nothing worthwhile to say either, because you've already decided on liking or disliking certain things about these characters, meaning you're biased. Sorry to say, but the fact that you don't seem to get that bias can be ignored, once again, shows me that you might not actually know what makes a good character. You can't say that someone else's likes and dislikes mean they're automatically biased, and then turn around and use your own likes and dislikes as 'unbiased' reasons for why something is of a certain quality.

 

[Six]

For anyone commenting in this thread "advising" others not to bother discussing with the OP, please stop doing so. You are in no way, shape or form obligated to respond to this topic, so please keep the disrespectful comments out. Thank you.