Aerith and her Faith

[The Witch]

Indeed. And it's a good find. But again, it's simply religious iconography, and halos are not the exclusive domain of Christianity. Within Christianity, that could be Mary, a saint, an Apostle, or who knows how many other figures. And a sampling of some other religions that use halos, or the concept of light surrounding the head of an important individual within their artwork/iconography: Islam, Greek (and therefore Roman) mythology, Egyptian mythology, Buddhism, and Hinduism.

Thank you.

Also, even if it's Mary, a saint, or an Apostle--as long as it's Abrahamic the point still stands.

Terra said it perfectly:

They aren't in a Buddha temple of worship, they are NOT in a Mosque, they are NOT in a Hindu house of worship. They are in a Church, described, called and told by the game, as a Church.

I never said that. I said Christianity doesn't exist in FF7. That's vastly different from saying religion doesn't exist in any FF.

but... it does exist in the game, TTT.

This post proves Christianity does.

What looks like Mary... what looks like Buddha... what looks like Jesus. Again, for the 49 bajillionth time, these things are images influenced by religious iconography. They themselves are not proof of any one character being affiliated with any particular religion.

Imagery... imagery. Why add the imagery, TTT?

No, it's not coincidence. It is imagery intended to evoke general feelings of a religious theme in the player. It's not necessarily intended to imply that Character X is affiliated with Religion Y.

I never said it was an Islamic angel.

you said... "And a sampling of some other religions that use halos, or the concept of light surrounding the head of an important individual within their artwork/iconography: Islam, Greek (and therefore Roman) mythology, Egyptian mythology, Buddhism, and Hinduism." so... no, you didn't say it could be an Islamic angel. But you said the halo could be of something else.

I don't know how that's relevant to anything, except your own confirmation bias. If it's not a Christian church, then any icon could be on it.

It's a chapel, that Baby doll pointed out to be exact to a Christian/Catholic church. It's also called a church. If they wanted it to be a temple or anything else they would have said so. But they called it a church. That just so happens to have a suspicious stained glass window of a brown haired man topped with a glorious golden halo. To which a girl visits and prays in. To make matters more confusing, she prays during the Gospel so catholic angels can give her aide.... suspicious.

But if it's specifically a Christian church, then it's an issue. So since you've decided it's a Christian church, then it excludes the possibility of it being any other religious iconography. That's backwards, and logically unsound. You're operating from a conclusion and bending the data to fit your conclusion, instead of operating objectively and bending the conclusion to fit the data.

Did we bend the data of the game and make it a Church with a brown haired figure topped with a halo(only associated to Christianity/catholics) on the stained glass window of said church? Did we bend the data and imagine Aerith kneeling on her knees in prayer during the Gospel so catholic angels can give her aide?

The fact of the matter is. You all are the only people taking a theme/iconic item and twisting it to mean some other religion.

Example, the church isn't a church and it could be a house of worship for any religion says you all. Her prayers during the Gospel to which Catholic angels aide her isn't associated to an Abrahamic religion. The cross is just a lower case T, instead of being in the game to show association to other Abrahamic items/significance(the church, jesus on the window, prayers during the gospel, catholic angels, Heaven, God, etc)

In that case, I don't think anyone has said religion is totally absent from all FF titles.

... So then... only Christianity?

Except of course the fact that "real world" religions don't exist in FF7.

You can't keep saying that when you have no proof to back your claim, TTT. We've provided more than enough proof that Christianity(and other religions) exist in the game.

No, biased because you're assuming it's specifically a Christian church.

Let's see... what other house of worship could it be... A Mosque? no, it'd be called a Mosque. A Temple? no... again, it'd be called a Temple. A Synagogue? Again, no. It'd be called a synagogue... not a Church.

What's usually associated to the word Church? Well, usually, an Abrahamic religious group like Christianity/Catholics. But, this could be a Church used for either Satan or paganism is what you're thinking right?

Well, let's see... it can't be that Aerith is following satan since she kneels during the Gospel in prayer praying for Catholic angels to give her aide.

In this church there is a stained glass window of a suspicious looking man with a bright golden halo behind his head. This figure looks like Jesus, since he has his brown hair and his unique halo brilliantly shining behind his head unlike any other figure in History.

Now, paganism is very interesting.

You know how the word started?

"Some believe that in the early Roman Empire, "paganus" came to mean "civilian" as opposed to "military." Christians at the time often called themselves "miles Christi" (Soldiers of Christ). The non-Christians became "pagani" -- non-soldiers or civilians. No denigration would be implied.
By the fifth century CE, its meaning evolved to include all non-Christians. Eventually, it became an evil term that implied the possibility of Satan worship. The latter two meanings are still in widespread use today." - source

That said... can the church really be of paganism usage or even Satanic usage? Well, again. Aerith by choice kneels in prayer during the Gospel so that Catholic angels can give her aide. Paganistic followers don't tend to pray during the Gospel so that Catholic Angels can aide them. And Satanic followers definitely don't do that.

So... no, the church, as Aerith uses it is of Christian usage. She not only prays in it, but prays during the Gospel so Catholic Angels can help her when she needs it.

Well, there is certainly a religious theme, but it doesn't necessarily mean its Christianity. There isn't a single FF game that uses a real religion, only the fictional ones they make for the game.

Yes. There is religious theme. But, can you please explain how crosses, figures that share a strong resemblance to Jesus, prayers during the Gospel, prayers during the Gospel so Catholic angels can aide them, talk of the SABBATH, or any of the facts listed by Baby Doll posted in This post can mean it's not Christianity?

Again, no. As Baby Doll proved, 9 speaks of the day of the SABBATH. For all of you who don't know, the day of the Sabbath is Abrahamic and tied to Christians/Catholics/Jewish followers.

So, if an Abrahamic religion exists in IX, why can't Christianity exist within VII's world when we have Abrahamic themes/items such as Crosses, churches, prayers during Gospel, catholic angels, God, Heaven, Hell, and any other evidence that's been provided time and time again?

She prays to The Great Gospel, she calls on Angels who dress in Roman garb, she does not pray the Gayatri, she does not pray for what she should become, she does not wash her self before her prayer, and she isn't meditating. The limit isn't called "Allahu Akbar", its not called The Great Gayatri, its not called Meditation, and its not called the Great Twelve Olympians, it is called the Great Gospel, by a woman who lives in a Church.

Exactly. Very well said.

The reference to the Sabbath, like the imagery in FF7, is just a reference.

No. It's not a reference. A "reference" would have been "a spiritual day of rest that happens to fall on the seventh day of the week."

THIS, however, directly says "the day of the SABBATH" for the day of the Sabbath to exist.... what else must exist?

They asked them to remove Christian imagery. I have never denied that Christian imagery is readily apparent in the FF series. So I don't see the point of arguing something we apparently agree on.

So... you do agree that the Christian styled Church, the image of a Jesus-looking figure, a Cross, the Gospel, Catholic angels, and prayers during the Gospel are in fact of Christian imagery?

Just want to be clear on this.

Whether you accept it or not, I have brought logic and fact into the discussion. Not that you or Cali or Terra haven't at times, but there is a lot of assumption and opinion on your end. And, to be fair, some on mine.

this is a debate, I suppose opinions always get thrown into the mix. But, c'mon, man. With everything tied together in VII(the Christian styled Church, the image of a Jesus-looking figure, a Cross, the Gospel, Catholic angels, and prayers during the Gospel) that can't honestly be our opinions.

And again, it's nice, but it's not convincing. It's meant to evoke connotations of religion, but it doesn't specifically mean that she's Christian.

But... Christians/Catholics are the people that do what she does. No one else prays during the Gospel, nor does anyone else(of religion) pray during the Gospel so that Catholic angels can give them aide. These are things Christians/Catholics do. Not Hindi people, not Buddhists, not Muslims, not Pagans, not Satan followers... but Christian and Catholics.


rage: I'm out now)

 

[blakstang98]

Yes. There is religious theme. But, can you please explain how crosses, figures that share a strong resemblance to Jesus, prayers during the Gospel, prayers during the Gospel so Catholic angels can aide them, talk of the SABBATH, or any of the facts listed by Baby Doll posted in This post can mean it's not Christianity?

For starters, resemblance =/= actual. I think the point everyone is trying to make to you is that inference is not the same as fact. That dude can look like OJ Simpson to me, it doesn't mean it's a Football theme. The reason everyone is up in arms with this debate is because there are no facts, only opinions. Only those who helped design FFVII could really tell us what all the symbolism is and what it represents. And as I stated in the unquoted part of the paragraph that you quoted, there has never been a real religion in the FF series. Sure, it doesn't mean that they never did use the symbolism of one, but it also doesn't mean that it's definite that they did. Understand?

Now, why do they use symbolism and religious aspects that are fairly similar to Christianity? Who knows. My theory would be that Christianity is a little more widely accepted, especially in America. Calling them Jewish or Muslim would probably create a lot of controversy on Square, especially considering that this figure (Aeris) gets killed and nobody else (who weren't religious) didn't. Christians won't take offense to that (not to offend those who aren't Christian). As that's been said in many religious threads of late, Christian's aren't always the most loyal religious people, so naturally they won't care. These factors would be my best guess as to why they used a religious theme that's similar to Christianity, as opposed to Judiaism or Islamic.

 

[coffeecup]

It's pretty obvious that the symbolism, imagery, or whatever in the game resembles a lot from Christianty. That seems to have been pointed out twice every page for the duration of this entire thread. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Aeris is Christian, and I don't believe the developers had any intention of implying that Aeris is a Christian. I still think her Ancient descent would simply disallow her to believe in Christianity; the two conflict pretty heavily imo.

But...I think there are a lot of reasons why the developers threw in all this "Christian theme" stuff around Aeris anyway. It's likely that one of the big reasons is to simply demonstrate that Aeris is unique in having a more heightened and committed touch with the spiritual world. She's the planet-attuned Ancient race. She can hear and speak to the planet. She saves the world by summoning something from the planet. Yeah, she's pretty "special" when it comes to the cast of characters, we get it Mr. Developer.

Since most of the revenue from the game comes from the US, the developers likley had the business acumen to target the majority demographic of the teenage white kid in getting this message across. And since Christianity is so widespread, the peripheral demographic will still get this "Aeris is uniquely spiritual" message when you hit them across the face with the blunt "(Christian) religious theme" instrument.

I still don't understand how Aeris can be a Christian Ancient (since it's a paradox really), but to each his/her own. Religion always seems to be a bit of a touchy topic on this forum (seeing as it's a more conservative community as opposed to a more liberal internet), so I like to stay clear of anything too controversial here. But this is just my take on the matter for what it's worth. :/

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

I don't see why it has to be looked into so deeply, if religion was such an important issue I'm sure the script would have been wrote to infer Aerith is of "religion x", as other people have said, it's imagery. If you see a church, regardless of how old you are or how interested you are in religion you automatically associate a church with religion. If you see Jesus you automatically associate it with religion. If you see a halo, you associate it to angels and hence, religion. All of this stuff is taught at a very young age.

However, if someone sees a mosque in a game, you may not necessarily associate that to religion if you don't know what a mosque is or looks like. If you see a temple, there's no guarantee you'll associate it with religion. If Square-Enix decided to make their own religious imagery you aren't necessarily going to associate it with religion.

The church etc is probably nothing more than to say, "yes there is religion, and yes we chose christian imagery because it's something most people can easily relate back to religion". It doesn't necessarily mean that Aerith is religion x or religion y.

Someone may have already said the exact same thing but I'm not reading 31 pages on this.

 

[Dionysos]

Religion relies on thoughts, beliefs and values, with objects and symbology to compliment and facilitate these. What race or gender a person is can need to be only observed physically. Even if we get over the “we need to be told” barrier, we would still be able to recognise male from female without prior knowledge. A man is a man, and a woman is a woman. Without knowledge of what a man is a man would still be a man, because physically they are. A pig is indeed a pig, but that gives no-one a right to tell him what his religion is or what he believes in based on him being called Paul and the presence of a cross-shaped paint splash on his back (painted by the farmer – perhaps with religious intent, perhaps just to mark the pig), and therefore we can’t determine the pig’s religion, if he has one, without him telling us – which most pigs can’t. Aerith is a bit like the pig.

There is no indication within the FFVII world that they have an understanding or an acknowledgement of Christianity as a religion, though its symbolism (amongst symbolism from many religions and cultures) are scattered across the planet of many FFs. Like the pig, Aerith may find herself placed within the presence of Christian symbols and structures placed there by the creators which she may not understand, and like a pig may kneel and put its two front feet together (probably to sleep or eat, but it could be interpreted as praying if people wished to be silly about the pig), Aerith doing the same may also serve a different purpose (her limit break) and doesn’t need to represent her believing in Christianity.

With religion, if you don’t have the belief then there is no religion. We can’t determine that Christianity exists on FFVII in the way that it does on Earth without having knowledge of the beliefs behind them. Until then, they are merely visual or even textual objects to give a sense of religious atmosphere, without necessarily representing a real Earthly religion as existing within the FFVII universe.

The FFIX Sabbath reference is interesting, and I’d never noticed that before. An isolated name does not mean solid existence of Earthly religious days on Gaia as being the same as on Earth, though. Sabbath on Gaia seems to serve a similar purpose and meaning to Earthly Sabbath but that alone doesn’t mean that the religions behind it are also present. It’s a nice reference, and the player will know what it means without having to have entirely new and fictional culture explained, but it doesn’t mean that everything on Earth exists on Gaia too in its Earthly form. In this case it is likely just a namesake and a reference.

The Jesus-like image on the window in FFVII is another good find. It’s not clear enough to confirm as being in an image similar to Earth’s Jesus, but it is likely a representation of that kind of image, and yes a probable representation of Christian iconography. What I also find interesting is (and the image quality even in game has always been bad and hard to make out what it is) is that this image happens to be on the wall which appears to have fallen down, or been discarded, and the current church-face has a menorah-looking thing on top. I won’t argue that the church has been converted into a synagogue (as it is called a church – and besides I don’t believe that any of it really exists there in Earthly form), but its mere presence throws doubt on it as being exclusively Christian. Instead, to me, it just looks like a jumble of any scrap bit of religion they could find, which is quite fitting for a grim and depressing slum.

Buddha isn’t named, and is not confirmed as Buddha. Besides, if he was mentioned, as (on a different note) Leviathan is, then it is likely just to fit in with the Asian vibe Wutai was going for. Why was Leviathan tied to Wutai, then? Probably because they wanted a water serpent for the locals to have as their guardian, but didn’t want to have to name an Asiatic water serpent or dragon. Leviathan was by then already established and recognisable within the FF universe as a summon (and by now no longer associated with the Leviathan from the Bible), and so to kill two birds with one stone they decided to let the player get Leviathan as a summon here at the same time as writing him into the culture of Wutai. This is another example of how traditional Final Fantasy spells and summons don’t necessarily intend to imply anything, even if they are written into the text of the game.

Taking that figure (which is of poor quality and hard to make out anyway) as Buddha would be like taking the view that Lord Avon in FFIX is the same man as Shakespeare. As we play the game we may find ourselves upon first glance saying “oh look, it’s Buddha”, but that doesn’t make it our Buddha, for it wouldn’t make much sense. I don’t think that anyone is trying to argue that it doesn’t look like Buddha, as that is obviously the look that they were trying to go for there.

We seem to keep forgetting the conflict that would be created if Christianity in Earthly form was to exist on FFVII, as Sephiroth and Jenova are the villains who kill Aerith – two villains with strong Abrahamic influences and references behind them themselves.

An alternate interpretation of FFVII could be a representation of the spread of Abrahamic religions (in the form of Jenova’s influence on FFVII’s planet) across the world, eventually putting an end (or twisting it to give an Abrahamic core) to many localised, multi-deity, or Earth-centred cults. Sephiroth (or Sephiroth controlling the body of Jenova in the guise of Sephiroth) slaying the Midgar(d) Zolom could be representative of an attempted slaying or adapting of Norse mythical and religious beliefs by Abrahamic beliefs. The fall of the Cetra and the slaying of the last Ancient (Aerith) could carry a similar meaning. I’m not saying that I believe this to be fact, as it is merely an interpretation, but there is no fact here – only what we want to see.


If we spin this another way… For what reasons would it make sense for the actual religion of Christianity to be present on FFVII’s planet?

Most of the references used here rely on events that have happened on Earth, not the FFVII planet. Jesus did not walk FFVII’s planet and die there too, so far as we know. Mary was of our planet, not the planet of FFII. Why would FFIV’s planet also build a tower of Babel as it was written had been built on our Earth? Is the theory here that God makes sure that certain exact same events which occur on Earth also happen on other planets with humans? Why would he repeat this process without learning and improving each human-filled planet? So would he have sent another Jesus to FFVII’s planet? At the same time, would Buddha have been born again on FFVII’s planet?

If so, then why do we hear nothing of this? If not, then how would the people of FFVII’s planet know about these figures in order to worship them? Would God have told them stories about a distant planet called Earth? That would create a new prophet, as anyone receiving such a calling and spreading the good word would become.

If all of this happened, then why are so many people in FFVII only concerned about their own planet’s health? And if they worship beings from another planet, then why are they so hostile or fearful towards Jenova and her spawn (Sephiroth and other experiments)? Did the Ancients and then later the modern man lose their faith when Jenova polluted FFVII’s lifestream with alien matter, and they then associated her with the beings from the Earth they’d worshipped? Is this another reason why Sephiroth was able to aspire for godhood?

It would be interesting if that were so, but I personally just think that it is far more likely that the game creators wanted us to view holy places as holy places without being told that they were. If anything, it is a lazy way to avoid having to develop their own culture or religions (such as they did in FFX with Yevon). In a game such as FFVII it doesn’t matter so much, and the references can be cool with regards to the overall message of the game.

 

[Valvalis]

I personally just think that it is far more likely that the game creators wanted us to view holy places as holy places without being told that they were. If anything, it is a lazy way to avoid having to develop their own culture or religions (such as they did in FFX with Yevon).

I agree here, to throw in my two cents I think any time religious icons are used in a video game, it's just for a point of reference to the audience, and not meant to be anything specific. Because if the characters in the game worshipped broccoli, and there was a little square building in the game with a broccoli symbol on it, we wouldn't understand visually that it was a place of worship--it would have to be explained through dialogue or narration first, because broccoli is not commonly worshipped IRL and I doubt there is any organized religion for it. And I think often times, the game developers just don't want to take the extra time to explain things in words, so they use icons that are familiar to us as an audience that are commonly associated with holy places in general, to convey the idea of "holy place" without having to explain it. It doesn't mean it's supposed to represent any specific RL religion.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Argor251, No, Aerith is not having a cross objectified on her by another, like I have been saying its more than just symbols, so Aeriths not like the pig, because the creators put these things in the game and in her character and in the story on purpose, it’s never a mistake or a coincidence that they purposely built these things into the video game and her character,
it take a lot of time to program and creat the images used in the video game and they though them out well, the final fantasy team as well and especially loves to make people think about their games and the little details they put in to said game and character, they didn't coincidentally or accidentally jumble up the fact that Aeriths owns a Church, prays in the Church, has a limit called the Gospel which activate her prayer for Angels to come and aid her.
They didn't just put them in there for us viewers to see it and say "Hey! I enjoy this more because they put familiar images in there" they put this stuff in the game to speak and show detail and depth to the Character and the story line.

They put this stuff in there for a reason, you could say maybe they put it in their simply to have viewers familiarize themselves to this game, and they did they wanted us to find something familiar and something we loved in the game, to better our experience in playing the game. Why else would it/these things (the crosses, churches, priests, preachers, praying, angels and the Gospel) be familiar to us?

If they didn't exist they'd just be images? Which in turn renders the argument that they did it for familiarity useless, because they aren't familiar to us simply as Icons but because the meaning associated with them. Of course they put these things in there for the viewers/players that's why they made the game in the first place for our enjoyment. So of course this was there for us too, that's simple and obvious.

But nothing besides personal assertion proves these are "simply" images, you have all said it yourselves, they wanted us to see Religion in this imagery, to better familiarize and become more invested in the game itself, by finding a common knowledge or interest inside of the game, and they gave this to us players through Religious iconography, they put it in there to make us A. Think about it and B. Recognize it and associate it with what we know, not dissect it into absolutely nothing.

Nomura himself says you have to think about this stuff or he leaves it up to you, he said you'd have to watch Advent Children a couple of times before you got what the meaning of the story and movie truly was. He even compared when Cloud is in the Church water to a baptism, because he was finally free of his sins.

No again, she/Aerith isn't placed amongst the various symbols, because it is more than the imagery but the actions, the actions that they made Aerith perform prayer in a Church, and this fact is placed amongst other facts and symbols relative to only Christianity. We aren't assuming its prayer, angels come and help her they heal her, and not just any angels but Roman Catholic toga wearing Angels, by way of a limit called the "Great Gospel".
So she is praying, no doubt about it. It’s not just the images and themes and words they use, its the action they have made Aerith herself perform inside of her Church, as well as the many other Final Fantasy games with Christian-Judeo existence, like

I said in this post; they removed the crosses from the Churches because they were Judeo-Christian items, Nintendo of America and The Final Fantasy Crew acknowledged this fact, in the Final Fantasy XII game when Rasler and Ashelia get married the preacher says "may God our Holy Father smile graciously upon you". It’s not JUST Aerith's limit as well, it’s her praying in the Church after she feels Zack dying.

In the FFVII universe our Planets exist as well, and its not just visual imagery or textual, but I swear some people said for it to matter it had to be in context, yet here FFIX is with the Day of The Sabbath and it means nothing. I'm sorry but, say who? What proof do you have to prove these are just "images" and visual object to give a "theme of religious atmosphere"? Nothing proves they are just images, we all only know them as Christian-Judeo. And like every opposite of this argument has said; they wanted us to see the religions and get familiarized.

In FFIX it’s not an isolated name, there are also Churches, and priests in the game. So their obviously are houses of worship, and there are men of worship and then there is the existence of the Day of The Sabbath as well, and the context as well; they board speaks about taking a day off on the Day of The Sabbath and its known as a day of rest because of Religion. Abrahamic religion to be precise. So, there is worship in FFIX, along with the Abrahimic day of rest the "Day of The Sabbath". You said it yourself, they wanted us to see Religion in this, and they did a fine job of making us notice it.

If the window has a Jesus similar man, and it seems to have been ripped or to have fallen from the Church, and "Church" is the name and title of a Chirstian house of Worship, it’s not a Synagogue since Aerith prays by the Gospel not the Torah. If the Gospel exists, it safe to say so does Jesus, since our exact planets are shown as well. I think Areiths "Sacred" Church, which happens to be the only place the sun shine as well as the only place plants can prosper/aka life, is supposed to be like the only hopeful place in Midgar not a grim addition to the gloomy Midgar.

Its a pretty clear picture, it’s a statue identical to Buddha, you can argue that it just looks like Buddha but it looks identical to him. And while yeah, yet another summon has a religious name, this doesn't mean it actually exists, we have all come to accept that the summons are similar in name only. But how does the existence of Leviathan denounce Buddha? When you can see him clearly right there in the sketch?

It makes sense to me, since so many other religions ans religious items exist. Just because it doesn't make sense to you or others doesn't mean it point blank, doesn't make sense at all. Because there are other religious actions, items, themes, and places that show us there is religion, such as houses of worship and prayer.

Sephiroth and JENOVA have Abrahamic or Abrahimic-like names, that's all, I don't see how they create a conflict with these religion existing, or how Aerith dying in the process of holy summoning conflicts this either? JENOVA isn't Jehova, completely different name, and Sephiroth just has a Kabbala inspired/referenced name, and I don't get how Aerith does at all.

People having similar names, is not the same as the these items, places, actions and events actually being talked about and existing, just having similar names but existing as obviously different characters doesn't make them religious icons. Again Sephiroth and Jenova are aliens they are proved not to be the character or themes they are named after or inspired to be named by.

You as well as many others have said it; for us to familiarize ourselves and enjoy the game by doing so better. For our enjoyment and common interest. It doesn't have to play a huge part in the story to exist. What was the reason of making our planets exist? Same exact names and everything?

How do you know what happened to the FFVII's planet? Its never said or stated what the planets history was, and I don't even care if all of this is just their own spin on Christianity, which could serve a similar purpose, for familiarity, its their own story, they are just using our religions as instruments. I stated in my post its not the same exact Tower of Bibel, but we are not only supposed to notice the religious reference but the Biblical one as well. The point is these items, actions, character and events are referenced and proved to exist. I don't know what happened on the FF planets or history's but I know that the Final Fantasy team put these thing here on purpose.

Like I said; it doesn't matter why it exists or the history of the planets, because we are never given any detail on that matter, we are simply shown that this stuff exists. Perhaps this is our planet in the future who knows. We were never told.

I never said all of that happened; you are making personal assertions, that I never hinted at or stated or even claimed for that matter, you are going on in an argument when I never said any of that, its a Fantasy Game who knows what happened to the planets. I was under the impression that the people of FFVII's planet never knew about what happened to Sephiroth and the JENOVA project? When were we told the people knew? Only AVALANCHE knew. And I never said God made so and so many planets and so and so religions, you did, you are arguing with yourself.

It doesn't matter to you, I'd like to know, however. Its not important to the story, I agree, I don't think anyone said it was, but it does exist nothing says or proves this Christian imagery are just "symbols", because time after time everyone has said here; they wanted us to recognize these familiar existences. They have proven time and time again that they can invent their own stuff and religions; FFX for instance, why would they use our religions to make their own Holy existences?

---

Like I said; what about FFXII? When Ashelia and Rasler are getting married, and the preacher says "May God our Holy Father smile graciously upon you."? As well as the Final Fantasy Team and Nintendo of America removing the Crossed because it was Christian-Judeo which wasn't allowed to be portrayed at the time? Or in Final Fantasy VII when Cait Sith says he'll be the Preacher?

The arguments have changed so many times here, it’s hard to tell what we're arguing here; Is it that religion doesn't exist at all, or that Aerith doesn't practice is or that religion exists - just not Chirstianity or Abrahamic religions? Because first people here said they were just symbols for reference and not Christian at all, now it’s that the religions can't plausibly exist?

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

Well why not look at it this way, as well as my other post which I imagine was overlooked...

Aside from the Church in Midgar... How many churches are in the game? Because correct me if i'm wrong but that is the ONLY Church in the entire game. Aside from that I don't think there's any religious buildings in the game

 

[Terra Branford]

I still think her Ancient descent would simply disallow her to believe in Christianity; the two conflict pretty heavily imo.

Whose to say that the Ancient ones aren't Christians? I'm just asking...

Aside from the Church in Midgar... How many churches are in the game? Because correct me if i'm wrong but that is the ONLY Church in the entire game. Aside from that I don't think there's any religious buildings in the game

So the number of Churches makes a Christian/Christianity real? Does that mean that over in countries were Churches aren't allowed to be built, the religion doesn't exist...?

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

It means odds are it's a cult at best imo, in the world of FF7 anyway. If there's just the one Church Religion clearly isn't really a popular part of life, if it exists at all. Name one other person bar Aerith who takes interest in the Church, bar those two children who only go there for flowers and Aerith's ghost

If Christianity existed and the Midgar Church was truly a Christian Church don't you think there'd be pilgrimages to attend the only religious site on the Planet? Nobody ever even mentions God or anything remotely religious aside from the Planet

 

[Terra Branford]

It means odds are it's a cult at best imo, in the world of FF7 anyway. If there's just the one Church Religion clearly isn't really a popular part of life, if it exists at all. Name one other person bar Aerith who takes interest in the Church, bar those two children who only go there for flowers and Aerith's ghost

If Christianity existed and the Midgar Church was truly a Christian Church don't you think there'd be pilgrimages to attend the only religious site on the Planet?

What? A Cult? It shouldn't matter that its in a game. It being a game doesn't make it any less apparent of what it is. If you can have cars, trains, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto and all the rest, then you can have Christianity in the game.

Cloud goes there. Marlene (is that how you spell it?) goes there and Tifa, even some other kids. Unless you mean "does it show others praying" there, then I'd have to say "I don't know, as the game focused on Cloud, Aerith, Tifa & Co." and not on the lives of others.

And for them to show a Main character praying or having Christian/Catholic religious practices, is enough to say that it exists in the game.

Tifa, in CoT, prays for Barret. So....yea:

Barret lifted his articial right arm up that had a machine gun attached to it. He kept walking without looking back. It was the back of a figure who had no other way to live than to fight. I wonder just what kind of life he will find. I prayed that he would be able to stay far away from war. Not just take. I prayed he would be able to prove that he could give, too.

If Christianity existed and the Midgar Church was truly a Christian Church don't you think there'd be pilgrimages to attend the only religious site on the Planet?

^
You don't have to go to a Church to be Christian. You don't have to carry a Cross with you to be Christian. One can be Christian by Faith, not my possession of symbols of that religion or having a "rule" to go their religious house of worship.

But, Aerith is seen doing Christian/Catholic practices of the Christian/Catholic religion.

The point being is that Aerith has been seen practicing Christian/Catholic practices of that religion. Praying for Catholic Angels, visiting a Church (something that CANNOT be associated with anything else other than Christianity/Catholicism), prays to The Gospel, Church has a figure with a golden halo behind his brown hair (which I already clarified that it cannot be from any other religion on my return post) and all the rest of the evidence we have brought forth.

Nobody ever even mentions God or anything remotely religious aside from the Planet

You think that God should be uttered every second/hour for someone to be religious...?

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

You'd think it'd be mentioned in statements like 'thank god' or such

And you say that about Crosses but hasn't it been mentioned before that the only reason Aerith can't be a Muslim or whatever is because she doesn't wear religious outfits of other religions? The same can be said here

And praying can be simply put down to praying to the Planet which is essencially the closest thing to a Guardian Deity, Aerith herself even says she visits the Church because she hears the voices of the dead clearer there, not to be close to God or other such things sounds to me it's more of a religion to The Planet than anything, more a Pagan thing if I recall.

And other people only went there because Aerith used to be there and because at the end of AC it's the one and only place where the Lifestream exists for the children to be 'cleansed' of Geostigma.

 

[Terra Branford]

You'd think it'd be mentioned in statements like 'thank god' or such

It doesn't have to be mention. People say "thank god" when not religious too, so that being added wouldn't have helped either side of the debate anyways...

And you say that about Crosses but hasn't it been mentioned before that the only reason Aerith can't be a Muslim or whatever is because she doesn't wear religious outfits of other religions? The same can be said here

There is a vast difference there, Chargar. Muslim clothing is required by religion, by Allah and by Muhammad's word, despite what people may say, of Muslims, especially women.

A Cross, Church appearances...none of that is required or punishable, by our God. I could go on more of why it definitely couldn't be Islam, but that would probably be called going off topic. >.>

And praying can be simply put down to praying to the Planet which is essencially the closest thing to a Guardian Deity, Aerith herself even says she visits the Church because she hears the voices of the dead clearer there, not to be close to God or other such things sounds to me it's more of a religion to The Planet than anything, more a Pagan thing if I recall.

No, she doesn't pray to the planet. You can see her sit and pray to The Gospel for Catholic angels to come and aid them in battle. :/

If she was praying to the planet (which evidence supports she is not) then why did the Planet send out Catholic angels from The Gospel? Why not some earthquake or planet-y powers instead of Christian/Catholic Angels from The Gospel?

And other people only went there because Aerith used to be there and because at the end of AC it's the one and only place where the Lifestream exists for the children to be 'cleansed' of Geostigma.

Which is exactly why I said "unless you mean going there to pray". I already provided an answer to that.

That's another thing. Weird how that the Lifestream acts as Holy Water to cleanse people. And who was it that mentioned it being like baptizism?

Was it Nojima? Or Nomura...?

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

And isn't Baptism a Catholic thing? Not Christian?

And I read earlier in the thread that it's actually optional depending on A: where you live and B: what the male partner says, at least for things like the Burkha in the Muslim religion.

Also, how do we know she's praying to 'The Gospel'? just because Angels appear, that could just be a symbolic name to associate with the effects, they could simply be spirits of the lifestream and going by the fact Aerith is a healer, not a battlemage it'd make sense that it was healing and not an earthquake or whatever.

 

[Terra Branford]

And isn't Baptism a Catholic thing? Not Christian?

No, its Christian too. And even if it was just Catholic, is still the same...That's why when we Christians baptize, we say:

"I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

And I read earlier in the thread that it's actually optional depending on A: where you live and B: what the male partner says, at least for things like the Burkha in the Muslim religion.

No...its not. One as a person could refuse it if the country allows you to defy the Sharia System and the religion's laws, but its required and very few women in the east (meant east, had to edit) walk around without their required clothing. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan...all of them. >.>

Its required of religion, Cross/Churches are not for the Christian/Catholic Faith.

Also, how do we know she's praying to 'The Gospel'? just because Angels appear, that could just be a symbolic name to associate with the effects, they could simply be spirits of the lifestream and going by the fact Aerith is a healer, not a battlemage it'd make sense that it was healing and not an earthquake or whatever.

Because she uses The Gospel by praying to that limit to call on the aid of the Angels.

No, they are not "spirits" as they are clearly Catholic Angels.

So? If she's praying to the Planet like you said, she'd get a response from the Planet's power, not from the aid of Christian/Catholic Angels.

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

In most cases of death being shown they'd more commonly be represented as Angels both in games and stuff like anime. If we assume there's an FF7 style heaven in the form of the Lifestream, what's to say they don't become angels in the way we know them?

And unless me and you have different copies of FF7 I didn't see Aerith holding a Gospel, if not for the Limit's name I doubt this debate would even hold much fruit either as for 'clearly' being Catholic Angels, what are the odds these are just traditional 'angels' not meant to be based off of the Catholic faith's interpretation of their appearance... That it's just a coincidental similarity?

And if Baptism was 'just Catholic' would that not mean Aerith was Catholic and not Christian?

 

[Dionysos]

What I was getting at with comparing Aerith to the pig was that she has been created by Square. They may have consciously added religious imagery in association with her (and multiple other characters), or they may have just added these images without even thinking about it much, and just placed them because it felt natural to put them there. Aerith herself didn’t do this, they did. Aerith herself is a pawn of her creators, just like the pig is in the control of his farmer. If Aerith was to state in the game that she was Christian, or show a belief in God and Christianity, and it was shown to have been an accepted religion, then even though it would still technically be the creators making her say this it would be hard enough evidence that she herself acknowledges or believes in the faith being connected to her, if we were to ignore all the other faiths that can be connected to her.

All of that was just a silly way for me to say that she’s a character, and unless they make a big effort to express that Christianity exists and that Aerith acknowledges this above that of the worship of the planet and pure holiness in general, then we can’t put our foot down and be convinced on her being a Christian.

But nothing besides personal assertion proves these are "simply" images, you have all said it yourselves, they wanted us to see Religion in this imagery, to better familiarize and become more invested in the game itself, by finding a common knowledge or interest inside of the game, and they gave this to us players through Religious iconography, they put it in there to make us A. Think about it and B. Recognize it and associate it with what we know, not dissect it into absolutely nothing.

We’re not all dissecting it into nothing. There are likely reasons for some of the religious references, but how far we look into it is up to us. I look quite far into these images in fact, probably more than is healthy, or worth it.

He even compared when Cloud is in the Church water to a baptism, because he was finally free of his sins.

Comparison and the actual carrying out of that ritual are different. I could, would and have made that comparison myself, but that doesn’t mean that Cloud was a Christian or was fulfilling Aerith’s wishes as a Christian. She was dead at the time, and she was at an ancient site.

By leaving it up to us he is leaving it up to our interpretation, and to think about this, not stating harshly that Aerith or anyone in FFVII is a Christian. To me I hold it as allegorical, but not actual.

EDIT - My bad there. You meant Cloud in the Church. Holy water scenes make sense and holy water rituals aren't limited to Christianity. I think that the above still applies in general, in my opinon.

If anything, what he says is a confirmation that we are free to interpret things however we want to, and not to believe that Cloud is a Christian.

In the FFVII universe our Planets exist as well, and its not just visual imagery or textual, but I swear some people said for it to matter it had to be in context, yet here FFIX is with the Day of The Sabbath and it means nothing. I'm sorry but, say who? What proof do you have to prove these are just "images" and visual object to give a "theme of religious atmosphere"? Nothing proves they are just images, we all only know them as Christian-Judeo. And like every opposite of this argument has said; they wanted us to see the religions and get familiarized.

No proof, other than the lack of any other evidence in the game to lead to that conclusion. I’m also not trying to state hard fact, as we’re not in a position to claim to know hard fact. I’m merely stating my opinion on it, and it looks to me as a reference. If Shakespeare isn’t sucked through the void, through a blender, and then into Gaia, then what’s to say that Sabbath did? Are the Knights of Pluto knights dedicated to the god Pluto? The planet? Mickey’s dog? Or are they just named as such because it is a good name to use for us to recognise, and for us to think about why they were named as such, rather than giving hints as to their own allegiances to things within our own Earth.

If the window has a Jesus similar man, and it seems to have been ripped or to have fallen from the Church, and "Church" is the name and title of a Chirstian house of Worship, it’s not a Synagogue since Aerith prays by the Gospel not the Torah.

I didn’t say it was. I said that I wasn’t going to say that it was, but that we should take note that the picture of the Jesus-like figure has probably seen better days, and that there is a menorah-type thing on the roof. It doesn't look much like the Advent Children redesign.

But how does the existence of Leviathan denounce Buddha? When you can see him clearly right there in the sketch?

I didn’t intend to denounce Buddha on account of Leviathan. I was just stating that Leviathan has been worked into the culture of Wutai, and in this game he acts as a sort of Asiatic guardian serpent, and not our Leviathan. I personally decide that Buddha doesn’t exist in FFVII because I can’t imagine him being present on that planet. It doesn’t make sense, unless we were to argue that FFVII’s planet is our own, which in turn doesn’t make sense either – in my opinion.

It makes sense to me, since so many other religions ans religious items exist. Just because it doesn't make sense to you or others doesn't mean it point blank, doesn't make sense at all. Because there are other religious actions, items, themes, and places that show us there is religion, such as houses of worship and prayer.

Our opinions differ, and that is fine, so long as we accept that. We’re all interpreting the same evidence here. There is no hard fact for this which hasn’t (I think) been addressed at some point or other in this thread. What others say doesn’t have to be true either, people are just giving their opinions on it, and discussing. It’s when we refer to things as hard fact that we go wrong here, as it’s not hard fact, but more a sort of wobbly jelly balancing on the head of a chocobo. We can interpret it as we will, at the end of the day.

Sephiroth and JENOVA have Abrahamic or Abrahimic-like names, that's all, I don't see how they create a conflict with these religion existing, or how Aerith dying in the process of holy summoning conflicts this either? JENOVA isn't Jehova, completely different name, and Sephiroth just has a Kabbala inspired/referenced name, and I don't get how Aerith does at all.

People having similar names, is not the same as the these items, places, actions and events actually being talked about and existing, just having similar names but existing as obviously different characters doesn't make them religious icons. Again Sephiroth and Jenova are aliens they are proved not to be the character or themes they are named after or inspired to be named by.

You said yourself though, the references have to mean something. I didn’t mean to take away meaning, as I personally think that there is meaning, I just don’t think that we have the right to state as hard fact that Aerith is of Christian faith, or of any Earthly faith. She may be, but it isn’t stated.

And if a cross on the presence of a vampire-themed character’s coffin in a spooky basement can be interpreted as evidence and a reference to Christ, and a blurry stained glass window can be a reference to Christ, and an illustration of a statue in concept design art for the game can be taken as a reference to Buddha, then surely the names Jenova and Sephiroth can be taken as references to their namesakes, just like Babil is a reference to Babel, and just like Leviathan is a reference to Leviathan, and the Midgar Zolom is a reference to the Midgard Serpent.

How do you know what happened to the FFVII's planet? Its never said or stated what the planets history was, and I don't even care if all of this is just their own spin on Christianity, which could serve a similar purpose, for familiarity, its their own story, they are just using our religions as instruments. I stated in my post its not the same exact Tower of Bibel, but we are not only supposed to notice the religious reference but the Biblical one as well. The point is these items, actions, character and events are referenced and proved to exist. I don't know what happened on the FF planets or history's but I know that the Final Fantasy team put these thing here on purpose.

Sephiroth’s final attack is an animation, in my opinion. I don’t take that it was actually our solar system, as that doesn’t make much sense considering it is still there and ready to be destroyed again as soon as the screen fades back into the heaven-backdrop of Sephiroth’s battle. That’s just my opinion, but it isn’t hard fact or accepted that it is actually set in our solar system, as far as I know. If there is word out there that states that it is in our solar system, then personally that is quite a flaw in the game, as FFVII doesn’t resemble Earth at all, so we can’t relate to it like that. Similarities, yes. Points made, yes. Allusions, yes. But do I live on the planet of VII? No. Do the people of FFVII live on our planet in the future? In my opinion, no, as it doesn’t seem to make sense, even in fiction. The creators of the game likely just didn’t want to invent a new solar system for the animation (why would they?), and so used our own so that we are aware of what is happening.

And I’ve never intended to doubt that there was a purpose to it all, just that we can’t possibly know if the characters were to believe in them, or if the religions themselves existed amongst them, or us only. We’re allowed to interpret this in any way we choose, but it doesn’t make anything hard fact.

I never said all of that happened; you are making personal assertions, that I never hinted at or stated or even claimed for that matter, you are going on in an argument when I never said any of that, its a Fantasy Game who knows what happened to the planets. I was under the impression that the people of FFVII's planet never knew about what happened to Sephiroth and the JENOVA project? When were we told the people knew? Only AVALANCHE knew. And I never said God made so and so many planets and so and so religions, you did, you are arguing with yourself.

I wasn’t arguing. I knew you didn’t say it, and it wasn’t aimed at you. I was asking a series of questions. Mostly to myself, I admit, but I was just expressing how I, personally, can’t imagine Christianity to actually be present on the planet of FFVII in a spiritual sense. Spiritually on FFVII’s planet, the only strong presences are the Lifestream / will of the planet, and Jenova, who was infecting it. The rest wasn’t developed enough for me to get a sense that they were present, but those two forces seemed to really be there, and it is these that are at the heart of Aerith's character.

I didn’t mean any insult by that post either, I’m merely discussing the matter, and not intending to be heated or get others heated by it. If that’s how it’s coming across, I apologise. It’s an interesting topic, though if the topic was a snake it would now have its tail in its mouth, and is currently choking on the tail.

The Cetra knew about Jenova. Sure the common man in the modern era probably wouldn’t be any wiser about the details of Jenova, or the origins of Sephiroth, but key employees of Shinra did, and AVALANCHE did, and these were the two main forces of the planet who had the most influence over the lives of the people.

Like I said; what about FFXII? When Ashelia and Rasler are getting married, and the preacher says "May God our Holy Father smile graciously upon you."?

It could be explained in that FFXII was of a largely medieval theme, with a splash of steampunk, and the marriage ceremonies are of a Western style / exaggerated due to it being royal.

If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t FFXII have a set of established gods of their own, that are listed as such? I haven’t played much of FFXII, so I may be wrong, but I’ve been under the impression that there were deities named in their creation myths.

The arguments have changed so many times here, its hard to tell what we're arguing here; Is it that religion doesn't exist at all, or that Aerith doesn't practice is or that religion exists - just not Chirstianity or Abrahamic religions? Because first people here said they were just symbols for reference and not Christian at all, now its that the religions can't plausibly exist?

I’m just trying to say that it is hard to imagine our religions as existing on an alien world, especially just as they occurred here. I equally find it hard to imagine FFVII's planet as our own. It's meant to be similar for a reason, sure, but I don't think that they ever tried to claim that it was the Earth that we live on.

 

[Terra Branford]

In most cases of death being shown they'd more commonly be represented as Angels both in games and stuff like anime. If we assume there's an FF7 style heaven in the form of the Lifestream, what's to say they don't become angels in the way we know them?

And Angels are religious figures. That's what they are, that's where they are born from -- religion. And these Angels are from Christian/Catholic/Jewish religion. The Islam Angel is very, very, very, very different too, so it can't be any other.

And unless me and you have different copies of FF7 I didn't see Aerith holding a Gospel, if not for the Limit's name I doubt this debate would even hold much fruit either as for 'clearly' being Catholic Angels, what are the odds these are just traditional 'angels' not meant to be based off of the Catholic faith's interpretation of their appearance... That it's just a coincidental similarity?

"Traditional angels"? Angels are religious, not non-religious, figures. They were born and made, from religion. They didn't just pop up out of no where.

They appear in all religions (Hindu, Bahá'í Faith, C/C/J, Islam, Zoroastrianism,Sikhism and Indian Religions) but the way they appear in 7 is Christian/Catholic (I will say C/C from now one lol).

Coincidental? A church, praying, praying to The Gospel, the aid of Catholic angels, a stained glass church window in which we see Jesus (despite the terribly graphics)?

How much -- to you and others who see it as coincidence -- is "too" much coincidence for it become real in the sense it exists?

Non-religious people can speak of Angels, yes, but that doesn't negate the fact of where and how it came to be and what it is. >.>

And if Baptism was 'just Catholic' would that not mean Aerith was Catholic and not Christian?

And why would that be a problem to me/or us if she was a Catholic...?

Catholic, Christian...I'm arguing that she belongs to one of them. She could be Catholic, Jewish or Christian. I'm arguing the fact that she is one of those three.

All of that was just a silly way for me to say that she’s a character, and unless they make a big effort to express that Christianity exists and that Aerith acknowledges this above that of the worship of the planet and pure holiness in general, then we can’t put our foot down and be convinced on her being a Christian.

Well, you don't have to make a big stink to be of Christian/Catholic/Jewish Faith or to have it in something. I don't go around shouting God's name, telling people about Jesus Christ, or mention the religion or any of that, and I am still a Christian.

Just because the words "Jesus" or "God" or "Bible" isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it cannot be. A good example, would be the DragonKeeper Chronicles. If you've read that book, you will know what I mean here...

 

[Rorolina Frixell]

I was under the impression the majority were pretty dead set that Aerith was Christian and every other one was impossible

And saying the stained glass window is Jesus is 'assumption' and i've never seen or heard of any proof to say it's Jesus or any affiliation of any religion

And in the same right we could say any White Mage in all the FF games is a Christian then because Angels appear when they cast a Life spell? Or in this case Great Gospel? Or perhaps whatever the Greek/Roman/whatever Religion was called because of Ramuh, Phoenix, Hades, Ifrit, Shiva etc etc? They summon them but does it make them tied to another religion? Same principle imo.

 

[Terra Branford]

I was under the impression the majority were pretty dead set that Aerith was Christian and every other one was impossible

Well yes, she appears to have more Christian themes, but we're basically debating whether she is Christian/Catholic or Jewish...of those Abrahamic religions, of course.

And saying the stained glass window is Jesus is 'assumption' and i've never seen or heard of any proof to say it's Jesus or any affiliation of any religion

Its not assumption when its clear (though people will say "nay" because its not clear because of limitations to that age's graphical system). And the fact that he appears on a Church window (again, Churches are is strictly religious objects belonging to C/C).

And in the same right we could say any White Mage in all the FF games is a Christian then because Angels appear when they cast a Life spell? Or in this case Great Gospel? Or perhaps whatever the Greek/Roman/whatever Religion was called because of Ramuh, Phoenix, Hades, Ifrit, Shiva etc etc? They summon them but does it make them tied to another religion? Same principle imo.

I suppose you could. Angels exist as religious figures and they summon them from above to aid them in their time of need. There was a post about that as well. Churches, Priests...all that existed in the Old FF titles as well

Yes, more reason of religion being in the game. The summons. Now if Aerith sat in Mosque to pray and did other Islamic religious practices (meaning no Church xD), that would greater the point of Ifrit being in the game, or the same for Shiva, Hades and the rest.

The point is, why so much for C/C/J? Why go through all these "coincidental situations" for just the C/C Faith and not that of any other religion?