Aerith and her Faith

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

@Ke$ha: Yes, I and Cali have read it and watched the movies. I see no such comparison 'cause it doesn't exist.

I have HP and have never encountered that which you speak of. He reminds me of a young boy with problems he must overcome and whatnot, but not of Jesus Christ.

Then you know exactly how we feel about this. I never encountered this at all when I played FF7. At all. Aerith doesn't practice Christan beliefs, she's just nice. Last time I checked, Christians didn't listen to the planet, and believed in heaven. Aerith says that everyone becomes part of the Lifestream, and there's no proof that the Promised Land even exists, and if it did, it's always implied that it was somewhere on the planet and not that it was heaven.

Aerith prays, but prayer is part of any religion, even planet worship. Yuna prays in FFX but that doesn't make her Christian. And you could say that her Aeons are angels if you wanted to interpret it that way.

You completely ignore the fact that Aerith doesn't portray just Christan values, and you ignore the fact that Aerith isn't a church. Aerith never once truly worries about the church. We never see her pray in the church if I remember rightly. And when she prays, it's usually more in a listen to the planet way, then talking to god kind of way.

And the concept of the Lifestream is not Christian at all. It's more about reincarnation, and Christianity doesn't believe in that correct?

But it hardly matters, because this argument isn't about proof so much as how you want to interpret a thousand little references, some of which have nothing to do with Aerith, and a few of which have nothing to do with FFVII.

Whatever references there are however does not change the fact that not once anywhere is their hard proof that Aerith is Christan, or that Christianity even exists in that world. You can't forget that they don't live in our world and that you are forcing beliefs from this world onto a world where they don't exist. There is no Christ in Aerith's world. He didn't die for their sins. We have no proof at all other than a Church, and given that it was ran down, and empty, and the only beautiful thing about it's drab decaying interior where the flowers.

And the flowers were all Aerith was worried about. She wasn't worried about Cloud fighting and destroying the Church, just the flowers. Why? Because the flower's represented the Planet. And Aerith worshiped the planet. It almost makes her as much as a Druid as a Christan, if we must think of it terms that more than likely don't exist in the world the game is set in.

You can point out references to our world all you want. Did you know that in Europe I believe it was, some uniforms had to be changed in FFVIII because they resembled Nazi uniforms? Was Square trying to say something deep there too? Or was it coincidence? Did Nazi exist in the world of FFVIII just because those uniforms looked that way? I think not.

It points only to Abrahamic religions: Christian, Catholic and Jewish. Not Islamic, not Hindu religion, not Buddhist, not Sikhism or anything other religion.

We have proven that its of one of those three, with too many Christian acts, practices, churches, Jesus Christ, The Gospel, Catholic Angels and whatnot, to be "buddhist" or anything else.

Again...it comes down to if you guys, will take it as evidence, which isn't going to happen I suppose... >.>

Aerith worships the PLANET! Christians worship God! Aerith believes in reincarnation through the Lifestream, where human souls return to it and become part of the PLANET! Aerith believes in the Promised Land, which is hinted at in the game to be more of a personal level (aka Nirvana) then to be an actual place. What's Christan about that?

 

[Squid]

You haven't PROVEN that its any of those religions... sorry but all you've done is found some pictures in FFVII like a pretty generic church.. or a blurry stain glass man who happens to have brown hair, and compared them to a picture of a real generic church and Jesus. No where in FFVII is it STATED as a FACT that there is a real life religion incorporated into FFVII... when you find a FACT that says Aerith believes in JESUS then you are correct. But you have yet to do that.

 

[The Witch]

^You didn't exactly read the rest of everyone's posts did you? :/

It's not just the church or the stained glass of a brown haired man with a golden Halo behind his head.

It's that Aerith not only visits a Catholic styled church, but she gets down on her knees, hands clasped, and prays during the Gospel so that Catholic angels will give her aide.

There are crosses in the game, which is symbolic to Christianity, especially in this situation, since we have Catholic churches, the Great Gospel book, Catholic angels, and prayers during said Gospel so Angels will help her.

This is, in fact, tied to Christianity. It might not be stated in black and white, but it is.


» Is Her church called a Church, and not a Mosque, Temple, or Synagogue? [✓]

» Is she praying DURING the Gospel(weird coincidence, huh)? [✓]

» Is she praying for CATHOLIC ANGELS to help her? [✓]

» Are there crosses on coffins? [✓]

» Is there a stained glass window on said Catholic Church of a man with brown hair and a Golden Halo behind his head? [✓]

» Is the name Jesus mentioned? [x]


Just because Jesus' name is not mentioned DOES NOT over write ANY of the evidence provided.

In OUR world...

- Churches exist for Christians/Catholics.
- The Great Gospel book is Christian/Catholic and refers to the Bible.
- Catholic Angels are for Catholics/Christians.
- Crosses on coffins are used by Christians/Catholics because of its association to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.
- Golden Halos behind a man's head-on a Church window-is what is in every Christian/catholic church.
- Prayers during the Great Gospel is something Christians/Catholics do.


So... if Aerith does and is involved in all of the above... that makes her a what? A Muslim? A Jew? A Buddhist? A Pagan?

[x] Muslims don't do ANY of the above.

[x] Jews do not emphazies on the cross or a man with a Golden Halo behind his head

[x] Buddhist also don't do any of what was listed above.

[x] Pagans, as I said before, strictly do not do any of what I said above because it was the Christians that gave Pagans their name because they did not believe in Christianity.

- Christians, however, DO do all of the above that Aerith has been associated to.

So... if she visits a Catholic church with a suspicious man sporting a bright golden Halo, but also prays during the Great Gospel so that Catholic Angels can give her help, and in this very same realm there are also crosses, references to Heaven and Hell and even sins...

What is she?

 

[Squid]

it is a made up religion loosely based off Christianity... how many more times to people need to say it? :S
She isn't Christian. SE just wanted to show that Aerith was Religious so they used some real life religious aspects and chucked them into FFVII to say, "hey look, Aerith is religious" People know those things you mentioned above are symbols of religion, so SE probably used them to help younger kids understand that there is a religious tone to FFVII.

 

[The Witch]

They're not symbols of "religion" in a whole. They are symbols of Christianity and Catholicism.

If Aerith was in our world and did what she did in VII, everyone would know she was a Christian. The only separation? She happens to be in an alternate universe.

I don't care if it's an alternate universe. The point of the matter is, SE wanted US to see Aerith tied to Christian/Catholic qualities, not Islamic, not Judaism, not Buddhism, or anything else for that matter, just Christianity/Catholicism.

If they wanted Aerith to be symbolically tied to ALL religions and not just one religion, they shouldn't have made her associated to a Catholic church. The shouldn't have made her Limit book The Great Gospel. They shouldn't have had her get on her knees during the Great Gospel and pray. And they wouldn't have made her kneel in prayer during the Great Gospel so Catholic angels can help her.

What I just listed above, is what defines Aerith as a Christian/Catholic faith person. Jesus might not be mentioned in the game, but that does not, and never will, overwrite the fact that SQUARE ENIX decided to paint Aerith as a Christian/Catholic faith woman. Over ANY other religion, it's Christianity/Catholicism that she is heavily associated to. Not ANY other religion.


So, although the glorious name of Jesus has never been mentioned, it still does not take away the factual evidence within any actions or associations she is tied to which are obviously Christian/Catholic inspired.

You all want names to be mentioned...

What about on Tifa's bar, Seventh Heaven, there is a big glowing picture of the word "TEXAS". And in Costa Del Sol there is a drink called "Blue Hawaii". To make maters more confusing, in Midgar there's a meal called "Korean BBQ"


So, you all want names to be listed... names are listed. Can't have Texas without Texas existing. Can't have Hawaii mentioned without Hawaii's existence. Can't have a Korean BBQ without Korea.

So, VII does straight out reference to things in OUR world that only OUR world could have. And most importantly, if Texas exists than so can Christianity.

 

[Ayumi Hamasaki]

So... if she visits a Catholic church with a suspicious man sporting a bright golden Halo, but also prays during the Great Gospel so that Catholic Angels can give her help, and in this very same realm there are also crosses, references to Heaven and Hell and even sins...

What is she?

To pray to the Planet. Which Catholics don't do the last time I checked. They don't talk to the Planet. They aren't trying to save the Planet. She prays to the Planet. Not to God.

Aerith didn't build that Church so it proves nothing about her character. For all you know, she just happened there because it was pretty, or because her flowers grew there. Or it's a pretty place in the Slums. You don't have to be Christian to appreciate beauty.

Also, she believes in the Lifestream, which isn't a very Christian idea. She believes that we all return to it and become part of the Planet again. She doesn't believe in heaven. Don't Christians believe in Heaven? The Promised Land isn't heaven, and the game doesn't prove it exists so it can't be.

So while you have some proof, we also have some proof. And alot of both sides proof is open to interpretation which is why this thread will go nowhere.

 

[The Witch]

To pray to the Planet. Which Catholics don't do the last time I checked. They don't talk to the Planet. They aren't trying to save the Planet. She prays to the Planet. Not to God.

No, she doesn't pray to the planet while in the Church. She does, however, pray during the Great Gospel(emphasis on the word GOSPEL) so that Catholic Angels can help her.

You don't have to be Christian to appreciate beauty.

You sure as heck have to be a Christian/Catholic to pray during the Great Gospel for Catholic Angels to come and heal/help you.

She doesn't believe in heaven.

Quote? Because, she does. Tifa does to, come to think of it. There's even a Heaven and Hell, along with SINS.

Don't Christians believe in Heaven? The Promised Land isn't heaven, and the game doesn't prove it exists so it can't be.

Their "lifestream" is like Heaven. It's a place of peace, and it even has a Limbo.

So while you have some proof, we also have some proof. And alot of both sides proof is open to interpretation which is why this thread will go nowhere.

I wish you'd comment on the rest of my post, Kesha. If you're not going to get back to all my arguments than that's fine, but I need all my arguments addressed not just the few you pick and choose, please.


You all want names to be mentioned...

What about on Tifa's bar, Seventh Heaven, there is a big glowing picture of the word "TEXAS". And in Costa Del Sol there is a drink called "Blue Hawaii". To make maters more confusing, in Midgar there's a meal called "Korean BBQ"


So, you all want names to be listed... names are listed. Can't have Texas without Texas existing. Can't have Hawaii mentioned without Hawaii's existence. Can't have a Korean BBQ without Korea.

So, VII does straight out reference to things in OUR world that only OUR world could have. And most importantly, if Texas exists than so can Christianity.

 

[Demon]

» Is Her church called a Church, and not a Mosque, Temple, or Synagogue? [✓]

» Is she praying DURING the Gospel(weird coincidence, huh)? [✓]

» Is she praying for CATHOLIC ANGELS to help her? [✓]

» Are there crosses on coffins? [✓]

» Is there a stained glass window on said Catholic Church of a man with brown hair and a Golden Halo behind his head? [✓]

» Is the name Jesus mentioned? [x]

That's a very big x, though. When presenting arguments, if you want to convince the other side, you have to be careful about not having holes in your argument. Any one hole has a chance of ruining the argument. So you have presented a lot of evidence leading up to Aerith being a Christian, but you can't deliver the final point(s) that say Aerith is a Christian rather than that Aerith is just religious.

 

[Dionysos]

The same could be said to those who deny the evidence, the clear evidence, that has been posted other than "it can't be"....

Because we have been posting evidence. It was the other side that wasn't other than "its not, its not, its not".

I am fully aware that the burden falls on us as we've been the only ones actually doing it

No-one is denying evidence. We’ve said it before that we’re all playing with the exact same evidence. What we see is visible, sure, but the meaning behind it is where our opinions differ.

We can, and have, provided evidence of Christianity references and other faiths ourselves within the FF universe, we just take the view that upon thinking about this it doesn’t make much sense, and we’ve attempted to logically explain why they would include these things. You don’t have to agree, but I’m just stating that all the evidence provided is all relevant to the discussion, sure, but it is not ‘end-of-discussion’ evidence. Perhaps there isn't any evidence of this kind for this topic, and perhaps to agree to interpret FFVII differently is the only way to really move forward.

What possible evidence could we provide to prove a non-existence, other than to use the same evidence provided, amongst other evidence of references to other faiths within the FF universe? It’s impossible.

To make this relevant. How do you prove or disprove the existence of God in our world? You can’t. Only faith and belief in ones own mind can for oneself. If everyone was to stop believing, God would be dead to us, unless he made a move to renew faith.

That’s key here. Physical evidence involves merely things we all see in the game, and yes there are things there, but what we really need is evidence of the belief, or the faith, which we are saying is not there, and doesn’t make much sense to be there.

It points only to Abrahamic religions: Christian, Catholic and Jewish. Not Islamic, not Hindu religion, not Buddhist, not Sikhism or anything other religion.

Islam is Abrahamic too.
No-one is trying to say that the evidence points to Aerith being Hindu, Buddhist or of any other Earthly faith either.

What about on Tifa's bar, Seventh Heaven, there is a big glowing picture of the word "TEXAS". And in Costa Del Sol there is a drink called "Blue Hawaii". To make maters more confusing, in Midgar there's a meal called "Korean BBQ"


So, you all want names to be listed... names are listed. Can't have Texas without Texas existing. Can't have Hawaii mentioned without Hawaii's existence. Can't have a Korean BBQ without Korea.

And this is what, in my opinion, makes it almost certain that the Christian references are only references. All of those places actually existing as they do here on the FFVII planet is absurd to imagine.

We could suggest that FFIX’s Alexandria is Alexandria in Egypt, but it almost certainly isn’t. Just like Alexander the Great wasn't a transformer. FFIX’s world used this to help its mythology, but did not copy our own planet’s history, and didn’t physically or spiritually pull Alexandria from our Earth into the Gaia of FFIX.

This is likewise with Karnak in FFV.

Is the sunken Easter Island statue really an Easter Island statue from Earth? Or is it merely an Easter egg and a private joke / nudge-and-wink to the player?

Is the river Lethe (where the player fights Ultros in FFVI) the same river Lethe of forgetfulness in the underworld of Greek Mythology? Is Ultros the octopus really the doglike monster Othros from myth? Or are they separate entities and references merely to make us go “ahhhh, that’s interesting what they’ve done there”?

Whilst we can’t assume that there are locations on FFVII’s planet called Texas and Hawaii, if they were to exist then they likely wouldn’t be our Hawaii or Texas, just like their Costa Del Sol is not of Earth either. Those references are aimed at us, the audience. We have ideas about each of these places, and these posters and little notes are to lead us to think in a certain way fast about a message, without having to have a guy with a beard step onto the scene to fill in detail on a fictional history and provide a map of all current locations in the FFVII world and explain their importance to us in insane amounts of detail.

Their "lifestream" is like Heaven. It's a place of peace, and it even has a Limbo.

That’s your own interpretation / values inserted onto the Lifestream. It could be taken as such, but it could be taken as many things if we wished to.

Over ANY other religion, it's Christianity/Catholicism that she is heavily associated to. Not ANY other religion.

On a visual front, perhaps.

Spiritually? Her beliefs predominantly lie with the planet and the Lifestream.

Culturally? She’s a Cetra / Ancient, who are painted as an Egyptian-Aztec people in the Temple of the Ancients, and like a strange Atlanteanesque civilisation in The Forgotten Capital.

She had an upbringing in the slums of Midgar, but wasn’t ignorant of her true ancestry, and her words and actions (at least to me, and this is without ever having met another Cetra - apart from her biological mother very briefly) are closer to the Cetra than the average slum-dweller. The only other people I can think of within the FFVII planet who come close to Aerith are the people at Cosmo Canyon, most notable Bugenhagen (I’m not sure if it is ever clear where these people came from, but I can suppose that they were settlers – Nanaki’s race being natives in the region – and that they learned through observation many of the things the Cetra had known, and began to view things in a similar light – that’s just a guess). So I’d say that she kept her association with the Cetra and the connection with the planet, despite years in the slums with people lacking any sort of hope. Her inner calling was strong, but it was the calling of the planet more than a calling of a deity.

 

[Rutlawski]

Errr... No.
She isn't a christian. And this religion doesn't exist in the world of FF7

Everything should rather be taken as a metaphor. The church is a buliding we first [ well not really ] meet Aeris/th. This bulding can make you feel quiete, relaxing, pure... Even if you aren't a christian. And that's what Aeris/th soul [?] was meant to be like.

The Promised Land is actually a belief taken from our world, if I'm not mistaken, but that wasn't due to the fact, that Square wanted to tell us "Christianity [ this belief is actually more jewish ] is a true religion, they only wanted to show us how some corrupt men [ or women ], can "feed" on this belief and hurt others.

Think about all of the FF1 mitology references. Does that mean they were all greeks? I don't think so.
Look at FF2. There's hell, and something like heaven. There's even Lucifer and Astaroth.
Then you can see Behemoth in 4.
This are all references, they are all metaforical.

Have you watched Neon Genesis Evangelion? Hell, there's PLENTY of christian references but it doesn't mean the author is a christian.

[ Sorry for the gramiatical errors, English isn't my native language ].

 

[GalaxyFlare]

Im sorry but can you please explain to me in short terms what "praying to the great gospel" actually means?

Ive seen that all the way through and its only ever been the name of a limit break to me

I wonder if there is any sought of middle ground that can be reached in this thread?
A capitulation is out of the question Faith Vs reason and logic never goes down well.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Im sorry but can you please explain to me in short terms what "praying to the great gospel" actually means?

Ive seen that all the way through and its only ever been the name of a limit break to me

I wonder if there is any sought of middle ground that can be reached in this thread?
A capitulation is out of the question Faith Vs reason and logic never goes down well.

When you get the mythril so you can get the book for Aerith's Limit Break, her book is called "The Great Gospel", the book Aerith reads to learn her last and Final Limit Break. Every final limit for each character is achieved when you get their book. Aerith BOOK is called "The Great Gospel". So not not only is she praying for Divine/angelic aid, but she achieved so by reading a book called The Great Gospel. That's what praying to the Gospel is. Her Limit is achieved by reading a book called the Great Gospel.

I don't know it kinda sells itself How many other book are called the Gospel?

No middle ground can be reached when people continuously go around and mock the thread and its posters. Maybe that's just my opinion though.

Wow, a dig at Religious people? So Faith automatically makes people not "Logical or Reasonable"?

The logic has been laid out, however many people keep arguing whether or not the actual existence is something else altogether and would rather it simply shares the name alone, that the Day of The Sabbath in FFIX rather than being religious "shares the name alone", even though there are priests and churches in the game as well, no matter how many thing we prove exist in the games and they very well may be these things, it doesn't matter because the opposers of this thread will say what they have always said; they are symbols, or they only share the name or resemblance.

---

EDIT; its OFF-TOPIC, so I just edited my last post.

It's not a dig. You're reaching for straws. He simply meant any debate between someone who relies on faith and someone who doesn't is bound to be heated.

"Faith Vs reason and logic never goes down well."

He said it as if reason and logic opposes or conflicts being faithful? As if those who are of Faith are not of reason and logic? How is that not a dig? If not a down right insult?

How am I reaching for straws?

He said those of Faith are opposing those of Logic/Reason as if we Religious People aren't logical or reasonable. He basically is saying those who aren't faithful are on the side of "logic" while the opposing would be...the opposite, being non-logical.

 

[CassinoChips]

Wow, a dig at Religious people? So Faith automatically makes people not "Logical or Reasonable"?

It's not a dig. You're reaching for straws. He simply meant any debate between someone who relies on faith and someone who doesn't is bound to be heated.

 

[The Witch]

You all said unless Aerith is stated to be a Christian all the Christian-type things she's associated to mean nothing. You said unless Jesus' name is mentioned that means he doesn't exist in their world.


Well, What about on Tifa's bar, Seventh Heaven, there's a big glowing picture of the word "TEXAS". And in Costa Del Sol there is a drink called "Blue Hawaii". To make maters more confusing, in Midgar there's a meal called "Korean BBQ"


So, you all want names to be listed... names are listed. Can't have Texas without Texas existing. Can't have Hawaii mentioned without Hawaii's existence. Can't have a Korean BBQ without Korea.

By all of your logic, now that Texas, Korea, and Hawaii have been verbally spoken of in the game, that means those places exist.

So, VII does straight out reference to things in OUR world that only OUR world could have. And most importantly, if Texas/Hawaii/Korea exists than so can Christianity.

Can I please have this addressed.

 

[Rutlawski]

But what is there to answer?

Off course, in FF7 we see many references to our world, names e.t.c.

"Gospel", church are also many of them but it doesn't necesarily mean there's any christianity involved. Do you see anybody like Jesus there? Or someone who could be allegorically him? Do you see any God, or Heaven? [ Ok, Heaven may be The Pro,mised Land but also it could easily represent buddistic Nirvana, as someone has pointed out ].

There's just no religion in the FF world. Well, not any from our world mind you, however many things resemble christianity not only in VII.

 

[The Witch]

You obviously missed the point in that being brought up. We can't exactly have Hawaii without Hawaii existing in VII's universe, right? That's not just a reference. It's a straight link to something only OUR world could have.

See now?


If Texas, Hawaii, and Korea are mentioned in their world, and those places only exist in OUR world, than that means anything from our world could exist in their world, including Jesus Christ, God, Heaven, and Hell. So, with the providing Christian items, actions, and themes existing in their world, that means it CAN exist. Why? Because if Texas, Hawaii, and Korea exist in their world, anything in our world can--meaning so can Christianity or any religion we know of here.


With that in mind, can't we see those symbolically religious items/themes/actions and make the logical conclusion that they too can exist amongst their world when other things only our world can have also exist there?

 

[Squid]

I think it's funny that you're forcing the non-believers into seeing it your way but you won't even consider our way? Perhaps Hawaii and Texas are... Oh I dunno... Just drink names?? Perhaps SE just wanted to add in some references for the player, little things we could pick out and laugh at or something??

At least my side of the argument I'd acknowledging that there are some Christian references to the game. You won't acknowlege anything other than your own belief which makes this debate very boring and never ending

 

[Rutlawski]

Yeah, I understand your point.

Off course there really well could be God, Angels [ aren't Summons/Espers type of gods? ], and christian faith.
The references could speak about this, but... They just aren't

Look at this another way. Only names "church", "gospel" aren't evidence about THE religion.
For years churches were bulit, maybe painted just for art. God, idea of God, was many times spoken of, written about, in form of art, not necesarily talking about your beliefs. Final Fantasy did the same for years with it's sanctums, Behemoths, and like I said earlier, Astaroth and Lucifer, Hell.
Look at the pure IDEA of christianity, not names. There's a man who died for our sins, saved the souls from not going to Heaven, promised eternal happines to people [ this one fit's ]

The other points hovewer do not. There isn't any savior, nor sins [ ok, Cloud & Barret bombing the Mako Reactors know that it's risky but they don't feel sorry for it ], there isn't a form of Evil, like in FFIV and VI [ Shinra was only making money, however cruel they were, Sephiroth was confused and damaged ].
There is a church but it doesn't serve any purpose, like mass, it let's the flowers grow.
There's Gospel but it doesn't glorify any God, nor it lets Aeris/th talk with God's messengers. It's a freakin' Limit Break

 

[Harlequin]

lolbump

I think there is ample use of religious imagery in the game mentioned in quite a few posts in this thread. I have no idea whether or not Aeris is a Christian or indeed what her religion is, but it's beyond doubt that there are Christian influences in FFVIIs universe. What we have to remember is that VII's universe exists in our own as fiction, but it still exists, the influences clearly imbedded into the work are very real and Aeris' mannerisms and indeed pious actions were doubtlessly modelled on that of an average, pious Christian.

Is Aeris a Christian? I have no idea. Is her character based on the idea of the average, pious Christian? Yes.

Faith Vs reason and logic never goes down well.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Dionysos]

So, VII does straight out reference to things in OUR world that only OUR world could have. And most importantly, if Texas/Hawaii/Korea exists than so can Christianity.

Can I please have this addressed.

I did in my last post.

Or at least I attempted to.

To expand on it, who is to say that if the FFVII Hawaii, Texas and Korea exist that they will be the same as our planet's Hawaii, Texas and Korea?

Why would they be on the FFVII planet anyway?

If other games can have towns and locations which share names with Earth locations, yet are clearly not our locations, then wouldn't it be safer to conclude that if Hawaii, Texas and Korea were mentioned in anything other than a poster / flyer / billboard which only keenest players will notice, and were shown to be real places in the FFVII universe, that they would be different to our own?

Karnak in FFV looks nothing like Karnak at all, for example. It isn't Karnak, yet it is named Karnak.

Midgar takes its name from Midgard, yet it wouldn't make sense for the realm of Midgard to be limited to only Midgar city within the FFVII universe unless it was to be taken as an allusion or a metaphor relating to the power of mankind within it.