The Four Sides of God

[Sum1sgruj]

Babydoll, how do they not follow the same God? Is there a logic that denies this? There isn't. It's as simple as that. In all actuality, I don't even know how this is anyone's idea, as it can be so easily disproven. This is a purely bias by any and all accounts.

For those who defend Jesus, I will tell the entirety of him:

Jesus was a mighty angel in heaven, only rivaled by Lucifer. God chose Jesus, however, to redeem man of their sins after Lucifer departed from heaven and tilted the balance of good and evil.
This is why Jesus is the prince of heaven. He did what no other angel had acomplished- he came to Earth as man, faced the trials of sin, and died the most horrible death that no living being can relate to. He was hated, spit on, tortured, maimed, and crucified.
All this was done in to show the love and mercy of God- he sent his own son to be sacrificed for our sins.

As much respect as I have for such a benevolent being, there are contributing factors that bar much proof that he was, in fact, the Messiah. You cannot blame other religions for denying his credibility. The OT does not fully aknowledge these events.
Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. They are the most orthodox religion of God on Earth.

I don't know where all this non-Christian persecution comes from, but it sure as hell does not come from any unchallenged idea_

And Babydoll, one more thing- what do Christians even try to follow in the OT besides the ten commandments? I don;t need to prove anything because the reality is right in front of you-

And as far as Christianity/Catholicism- I feel I have more than sanctioned a solid interpretation of them. It's starting to becom more a straw man argument than anything else.. they argue over the NT just as Jews/Muslims fight over the OT. The severity between them may differ, but that does not matter. Religion is absolute_

Holy war takes form in many different ways. Take Christianity for example. Do you not think that every other branch of God is waiting for time to run out before Jesus is indeed declared blasphemy? If you are a young Christian, you HAVE to believe that Jesus will return before you reach your deathbed. Otherwise, Jesus will be declared blasphemy... religious war does not simply end with contemporary bliss.

Note: I am not bashing you or trying to be condescending. In all actuality, though it may seem like a cliche, I am challenging you to interpret a bigger picture

 

[Shaissa]

Sum1 it would help if you site sources, just a little. I mean I'm not trying to make you prove your worth or knowledge. I'm saying it would be easier for people to follow where your coming from if you have a source or two.

 

[Harlequin]

Look, I am not providing quotes from the NT, ok? Honestly, you are being highly negligent of your own religion.
If you are Christian, you have to denounce many things in the OT.

Honestly sum1 nothing personal but stop talking out of your fucking arse trying to tell me what I have to denounce and accept. How the fuck am I being negligent of my religion? Are you even prepared to prove that?

And for the first bit, where you say Christianity isn't institutionalised.. It isn't. Except for Catholics lol. This what I was saying in my last post.
In all technicality, Christianity is the largest if you include the Vatican, but this is a bad, bad way of looking at it, because you are grouping two different concepts of Jesus.

Christianity is the belief in Jesus as the Son of God. A concept attributed to both Catholicism and rather obviously, Christianity. It sounds as if you're trying to fracture Christian statistics in order to belittle the religion.

Because I can see a little bit of venom starting to set in, I am going to assert this notion once more:

This is a theological discussion. If you are offended, please refrain from posting. By extension, if you feel the need to insult a religion, please refrain from posting. Thanx

If you keep trying to make me look like an idiot for disagreeing with you you're damn right there's gonna be venom. I don't feel animosity towards you but I'd ask that you kindly stop questioning my faith in Christianity, cheers.

 

[blakstang98]

Alright everyone, lets tone it down a few notches. No reason to get worked up and take shots. Take it to PM if you're having problems. Thank you, carry on.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Sum1sgruj, I already said that the God of Islam, Can not be my God or the God of the Bible because he denies Christ as his own Son, the God of Islam forgives as he sees fit not because the Savior came, only simply as he says because "He is oft forgiving and merciful". Honestly the first question of your post was answered in the first few sentences of mine, every word I typed in those few sentences answers your question, not only because he denies The Christ but because he Denies Moses as well. There for they are not the same God, they aren't even two different sides of the same God, they are two different entities. The God of the Bible said himself that Jesus was his Only Son, and that he was the Savior and Messiah, who sacrificed himself on the Cross. However Muslims and Islams Allah denies this, and instead says that Jesus allowed another to die in his place and they also deny the Miracles Jesus preformed, acknowledging only a small few instead; denying that he raised the dead, and in so denying that God so loved the world that he gave his only Son.

The most crucial fact of the Bible.

Not to mention, the Very different God of the Bible, does not need man to do his work.

I know what Jesus' story is, he is the Messiah not an Angel, unless you mean as he was referred to as always being with God, as the "word"? He is Gods only Son, he is God in the form of Man but at the same time his Only Son. He is not an Angel and never was he rivaled by Lucifer. It was foretold through the Old Testament that a Savior, our Messiah, would come and fulfill the Sin of Man, and when that Day came The Virgin Mary bore God's only Son. Jesus came and sacrificed himself for us, hence His last words were "Father, forgive them they know not what they do"

The verses from Isaiah, John, and Hebrews that people may confuse to say Jesus was one of Gods first creations indicate that Jesus is God/Gods Only Son, not an angel or his first creation.

There was bearing of the word from God that a Messiah would come, and so Jesus came, was born of a Virgin a miraculous birth, sinless by the grace of God. As Jesus the Man lived on he preformed Miracles, raising the dead for one.

Do you know every Christian or Catholic? I should be allowed to think not, seeing as that's impossible, we follow the Old Testament as well as the New, because as it is said it is the Law of God, but we don't need to live by the harshness of the Old Testament because the Messiah fulfilled that Law.

Don't you think telling me and Harlequin we follow our religion wrong or rather not at all in your words, as a bit rude? I mean, presuming that Christians don't follow their religion right is a bit pretentious.


Jesus said, he didn't come to abolish the law, and so he didn't, however he did say he came to fulfill it, and so he did along with giving two New Testaments; 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...' as well as 'Love your neighbor as thyself.

Again no, you are wrong, I stated the only difference between Catholicism and Christianity, Christians pray to God and Jesus and believe we are not under the Law but under Grace, Catholics pray to the God, Holy Prophets and Jesus and believe we are under the law as well. We Follow the same religion, while Muslims deny Jesus, Moses and follow Muhammed Jews do not, and they follow two completely different books as well, while Catholics and Christians follow the same Holy book, Jews and Muslims follow the Torah or the Old Testament and Muslims Follow the Qur'an. The difference is stark.

I don't believe Jesus is Blasphemy at all, and I never will and Holy war has not occurred in several hundreds of Years, unless you consider daily persecution of Christians in Egypt and the middle East as Holy War. Time for Jesus' return will never run out, there is not a ticking clock, because the Bible says Jesus will come as a thief in the night. He doesn't have to come in MY lifetime or my Childrens because he WILL return no matter, whether or not before my death will not declare him as a fact "Blasphemy". I believe indeed Jesus will be resurrected, but nothing ever says he HAS to come before I die or he is Blasphemy. I never insinuated that Holy War ends with contemporary bliss. All I said is its been over hundreds of years since the Crusades.

But the point is, you count all of these faith's; Protestant, Christians, Catholics, Anglican, Orthodox, as the same religion, because we all believe in Christ as our Savior. Or else you wouldn't count Shia Muslims the same as Sunni, or the rest, they would also be "different" religions

 

[Ilyena]

Actually, Islam doesn't deny Jesus or Moses. They are both very important prophets in Islam. However, Islam simply sees Jesus as a prophet not as the son of God.

I do see what Sum1sgruj is saying about God being the same in all three religions (I see Catholocism as a branch of Christianity and not a separate religion). Islam actually does see the God as the same as Christians and Jews are referenced in the Quran quite a bit.

That said, it would be nice if all religions could get along but there's a great deal of hatred to overcome. It's hard to overcome years of hatred due to things like persecution and politics.

 

[CassinoChips]

The cross itself was nothing more than a death-stick for murderes, thieves, and of course, alleged blasphemers.

Incorrect. The Romans did not crucify people for blasphemy. During the time of Jesus, in Roman-controlled Judea, the Romans did not pass the death sentence on anyone for a religious issue. They allowed the Jewish hierarchy to manage that. The penalty for blasphemy according to Jewish tradition was stoning, not crucifixion.

I haven't read much else, though I do agree that the three religions (Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity, not a separate religion.) all worship the same deity, and the wars fought in the name of religion are sad, disturbing, and a black mark on the face of humanity.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Sum1sgruj, I already said that the God of Islam, Can not be my God or the God of the Bible because he denies Christ as his own Son, the God of Islam forgives as he sees fit not because the Savior came, only simply as he says because "He is oft forgiving and merciful". Honestly the first question of your post was answered in the first few sentences of mine, every word I typed in those few sentences answers your question, not only because he denies The Christ but because he Denies Moses as well. There for they are not the same God, they aren't even two different sides of the same God, they are two different entities. The God of the Bible said himself that Jesus was his Only Son, and that he was the Savior and Messiah, who sacrificed himself on the Cross. However Muslims and Islams Allah denies this, and instead says that Jesus allowed another to die in his place and they also deny the Miracles Jesus preformed, acknowledging only a small few instead; denying that he raised the dead, and in so denying that God so loved the world that he gave his only Son.

The most crucial fact of the Bible.

Not to mention, the Very different God of the Bible, does not need man to do his work.

I know what Jesus' story is, he is the Messiah not an Angel, unless you mean as he was referred to as always being with God, as the "word"? He is Gods only Son, he is God in the form of Man but at the same time his Only Son. He is not an Angel and never was he rivaled by Lucifer. It was foretold through the Old Testament that a Savior, our Messiah, would come and fulfill the Sin of Man, and when that Day came The Virgin Mary bore God's only Son. Jesus came and sacrificed himself for us, hence His last words were "Father, forgive them they know not what they do"

The verses from Isaiah, John, and Hebrews that people may confuse to say Jesus was one of Gods first creations indicate that Jesus is God/Gods Only Son, not an angel or his first creation.

There was bearing of the word from God that a Messiah would come, and so Jesus came, was born of a Virgin a miraculous birth, sinless by the grace of God. As Jesus the Man lived on he preformed Miracles, raising the dead for one.

Do you know every Christian or Catholic? I should be allowed to think not, seeing as that's impossible, we follow the Old Testament as well as the New, because as it is said it is the Law of God, but we don't need to live by the harshness of the Old Testament because the Messiah fulfilled that Law.

Don't you think telling me and Harlequin we follow our religion wrong or rather not at all in your words, as a bit rude? I mean, presuming that Christians don't follow their religion right is a bit pretentious.


Jesus said, he didn't come to abolish the law, and so he didn't, however he did say he came to fulfill it, and so he did along with giving two New Testaments; ' Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...' as well as 'Love your neighbor as thyself.

Again no, you are wrong, I stated the only difference between Catholicism and Christianity, Christians pray to God and Jesus and believe we are not under the Law but under Grace, Catholics pray to the God, Holy Prophets and Jesus and believe we are under the law as well. We Follow the same religion, while Muslims deny Jesus, Moses and follow Muhammed Jews do not, and they follow two completely different books as well, while Catholics and Christians follow the same Holy book, Jews and Muslims follow the Torah or the Old Testament and Muslims Follow the Qur'an. The difference is stark.

I don't believe Jesus is Blasphemy at all, and I never will and Holy war has not occurred in several hundreds of Years, unless you consider daily persecution of Christians in Egypt and the middle East as Holy War. Time for Jesus' return will never run out, there is not a ticking clock, because the Bible says Jesus will come as a thief in the night. He doesn't have to come in MY lifetime or my Childrens because he WILL return no matter, whether or not before my death will not declare him as a fact "Blasphemy". I believe indeed Jesus will be resurrected, but nothing ever says he HAS to come before I die or he is Blasphemy. I never insinuated that Holy War ends with contemporary bliss. All I said is its been over hundreds of years since the Crusades.

But the point is, you count all of these faith's; Protestant, Christians, Catholics, Anglican, Orthodox, as the same religion, because we all believe in Christ as our Savior. Or else you wouldn't count Shia Muslims the same as Sunni, or the rest, they would also be "different" religions

Ok,, it's like I said before:

THEY ARE ALL SPEAKING OF THE SAME GOD!!! Sorry to have to put it this way, but the only 'difference' is how he is interpreted through other religions. Christians believe he sacrificed his son, Jews think he has yet to bring a Messiah, Catholics praise Mary as she was chosen by him , and Muslims trust in Muhammud's witness of Him.

There is just no way around this fact_

And the cross being a death penalty for murders, robbers, and NOT blasphemy.. Come on now, are we having a theological discussion or is it just blow up at the goddamn OP for trying to get peoples brains runnin? This will be my last post, as I am not going to do everyones brain work for them and post wiki's and shit to prove my case. I'm done_

This is why religion seems so ridiculous that people say screw it and stay atheist.

 

[CassinoChips]

And the cross being a death penalty for murders, robbers, and NOT blasphemy.. Come on now, are we having a theological discussion or is it just blow up at the goddamn OP for trying to get peoples brains runnin?

There's no theology involved. It's historical fact. Just thought I would share, as it's interesting that most Christians believe that Jesus was crucified for religious reasons, when it doesn't jive with what we know about Rome and Judea during that time.

This will be my last post, as I am not going to do everyones brain work for them and post wiki's and shit to prove my case. I'm done_

You can't blame people for watching you throw opinions and ideas out and then expecting you to back them up. That's the basis of argument: validation. Otherwise it's just your word against theirs, and it goes nowhere.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

There's no theology involved. It's historical fact. Just thought I would share, as it's interesting that most Christians believe that Jesus was crucified for religious reasons, when it doesn't jive with what we know about Rome and Judea during that time.



You can't blame people for watching you throw opinions and ideas out and then expecting you to back them up. That's the basis of argument: validation. Otherwise it's just your word against theirs, and it goes nowhere.

Well, it seems to me that some people are so in denial about certain things that it wouldn't do a shred of good to validate and therefore I'd be wasting my time.
I don't see anyone else validating anything, most likely because their is little validation for most of these arguements,, which I have been very patient with despite the ridiculous onlslaght.

It's historical fact that the penalty for blasphemy was to be stoned to death was established by God to Moses and the Isrealites after the Exodus.
Yes, this is true, but by no means does it take having to insult someones intelligence just to add specifics. This is something I have struggled with from the original post, and it's getting redundant. That is what is getting nobody anywhere..
The cross- When I mentioned it, I was not even talking about crucification specifically. But somehow, that entire post gets boiled down to that tiny error. However, maybe I did jump the gun on that, but now you got the idea of why.

And to answer that, Jesus was crucified because he was hated to that degree. It had everything to do with religion, despite the standard penalty. The Jews demanded it because he was gaining too much appeal to be declared a blasphemer. A more appropriate word according to them would be traitor. He was a very important and quoted prophet at the time.

But what do I have to validate anyways? That Christians who proclaim to follow the OT obviously do not?
Or that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God?

Do I have to post this to let Christians know that Christ was an angel before he came to Earth and that he was directly involved with the story of Lucifer?

Just over 6,000 years ago God and Jesus had a private meeting and Lucifer was not included. Lucifer became jealous. He set out on a campaign to prove that he was above Jesus. Lucifer began to be proud of his own glory and wisdom. "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.” Ezekiel 28:17 "you have set your heart as the heart of a god.” Ezekiel 28:6 Over time one third of the angels in heaven chose to side with Lucifer and to worship him instead of Jesus. God made tireless efforts to persuade Lucifer to repent and return to God. Lucifer almost relented, but he would not give up his pride and humble himself. He refused to admit that he was wrong.

It is also well to know that angels are not simply people with wings. Each angel is a manifestion of something. Lucifer was music and the keeper. Jesus is the word (wisdom). Michael is the general (angel of death and mercy). Gabriel is the messenger (God's high speaker). Belias was the prince of virtue (leader of Virtues).
Two of these angels are trying to kill you, along with another 33% of them.
Guess I should source that to, right, seeing how even the simplest of truths are taken far out of place. I mean, what am I going to hear next? That Lucifer was sent by God to balance good with evil so that humans had purpose? This is what I have always been careful about- you can find sources that actually state this kind of stuff. Doesn't mean it's true. That is actually a good example, because it's false.

To be perfectly honest, I've done a fine job of defending my case and I consider having to validate these things insulting. If people do not know these simple things, why even bother trying to argue? Or to be religious for that matter_

Seriously, this is a debate. Having to source things out of necessity is just plain ridiculous. If you are unsure, look it up yourself.

And just one last thing to sum up so I can be done with this gigantic post:
Harlequin, if Catholics and Christians should be considered the same religion because of their general belief in Jesus, then all of them should be, because they all believe in the same God. This is the logic you are arguing_

 

[Saints&Storms]

Sum1sgruj

No, its like I am saying, they are not the same God. These Holy books state they say two completrely different things and beings/entities, My God, the God of the Bible, not only accepts Jesus as His Son but pronounces it. He is forgiving because he gave His Only Son for us, he gave the Law through Moses and Love through Jesus. Allah refuses Jesus as his Son, and Himself, Mary and Jesus as the Holy Trinity.

The Muslims God "Allah" himself in the Qur'an refuses Jesus as his Son, however Jewish people do simply interpret God differently, but the Muslims Allah is a whole other being all together, in word, action, and affection.

There is a way around this factor, and that is reading the Bible, Torah and Qur'an.

I never said the Cross wasn't used as the penalty of Death for Blasphemy back then, I said I don't believe Jesus Christ will be or ever has been blasphemy. You however are saying he is and has to be blashemy, should he not arrive in MY lifetime. Which is ridiculous.

Oh no, don't post "wiki's", because they are so full of facts and absolute truth, I mean its not like people can edit them or anything...Sorry man I've read the Bible, and the Qur'an. You simply have the wrong understanding here. It looks like you have to do some brain work of your own.

Dude, you have achieved two things in your post as of last, you have insulted me, and proved you are incapable of debating kindly, and it is more than OBVIOUS you have never even picked up or so much as touched a Bible in your lifetime, stop reading Wikipedia, so hats off to you, g'day.

I thought you were leaving the thread, yet here you are, you've come back to insult me and Harlequin

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​

Warbourne, That's not what I said, they deny Jesus as the Messiah and the Only Son of God, and the Lord and Savior, but also God himself. They deny their miracles, they deny their power and the deny their sacredness. But not just they, but their religion their "Allah"

No, MY God, says Jesus is the Savior, and His Only Son. Islams Allah does not only deny this but twists Jesus into a liar and someone who Sacrificed another for himself.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I don't see how I'm being rude at all. As usual, it's alleged Christians who feel they need to bully their way through any religious discussion.

Christians seem to be the only people to proclaim their God is not the same, and it's usually out of spite.
To be accurate, it's only that they have a different view of the same God.
This can be explained by more earthly things. For example, you are told that your ex is dating someone. You still have feelings for this ex. So you go and find out. Whatever it is you discover, does the answer change the fact that the person is your ex? Did that person change, or was it the scenario?

Allah is just the Islamic translation for God. God is the English translation of Allah. The Isrealites call Him Elohim. They are not speaking of different entities//

In fact, I don't have anything else to say as far as that goes. Honestly, it's things such as this that turn a debate sour. Bringing bias thought into a debate is what is rude. I have asserted many times over that if you are offended or feel the need to insult, please refrain from posting.

I, however, lost my patience because,, I mean damn, I've been fighting tooth and nail just to state basic facts. I find it surprising that an agnostic person like myself can school Christians on their own belief. But did I flaunt that idea? No, not until I was handed a big ball of shit out of sheer ability.
Now I'm forced to, simply to defend myself.

Nonetheless, I am not debating basic constructs anymore. If anyone has a conflicting view on what I post from here on out, look it up and argue it with unbiased logic. Thanx

 

[CassinoChips]

Well, it seems to me that some people are so in denial about certain things that it wouldn't do a shred of good to validate and therefore I'd be wasting my time.
I don't see anyone else validating anything, most likely because their is little validation for most of these arguements,, which I have been very patient with despite the ridiculous onlslaght.

You're dealing with personal beliefs. Don't expect much in terms of validation. It's tough when you're dealing with belief structures and philosophies to find validation other than "this is what I believe" or "this is what my religion tells me to believe."

It's historical fact that the penalty for blasphemy was to be stoned to death was established by God to Moses and the Isrealites after the Exodus.
Yes, this is true, but by no means does it take having to insult someones intelligence just to add specifics. This is something I have struggled with from the original post, and it's getting redundant. That is what is getting nobody anywhere..
The cross- When I mentioned it, I was not even talking about crucification specifically. But somehow, that entire post gets boiled down to that tiny error. However, maybe I did jump the gun on that, but now you got the idea of why.

I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, and I'm sorry you took it as such. I was simply sharing information.

And to answer that, Jesus was crucified because he was hated to that degree. It had everything to do with religion, despite the standard penalty. The Jews demanded it because he was gaining too much appeal to be declared a blasphemer. A more appropriate word according to them would be traitor. He was a very important and quoted prophet at the time.

This isn't really the thread, but you kind of touched on it. The Romans crucified people because of sedition. As in political instigators. The point I was going towards was that he wasn't crucified for religious reasons, but for secular ones.

But what do I have to validate anyways? That Christians who proclaim to follow the OT obviously do not?
Or that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God?

As I've said elsewhere, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. Your claim is that all three religions have a similar backbone. So it's on you to validate that.

Guess I should source that to, right, seeing how even the simplest of truths are taken far out of place. I mean, what am I going to hear next? That Lucifer was sent by God to balance good with evil so that humans had purpose? This is what I have always been careful about- you can find sources that actually state this kind of stuff. Doesn't mean it's true. That is actually a good example, because it's false.

Sources are always good, because it lends validity. But it's not necessary in cases of common knowledge.

To be perfectly honest, I've done a fine job of defending my case and I consider having to validate these things insulting. If people do not know these simple things, why even bother trying to argue? Or to be religious for that matter_

Seriously, this is a debate. Having to source things out of necessity is just plain ridiculous. If you are unsure, look it up yourself.

That's a lazy attitude. You're the one bringing the information in, it's your job to verify it, not anybody else's.

And just one last thing to sum up so I can be done with this gigantic post:

Harlequin, if Catholics and Christians should be considered the same religion because of their general belief in Jesus, then all of them should be, because they all believe in the same God. This is the logic you are arguing_

It's different. Catholicism is a branch within Christianity. Islam and Judaism are two entirely distint religions.

 

[Harlequin]

And just one last thing to sum up so I can be done with this gigantic post:
Harlequin, if Catholics and Christians should be considered the same religion because of their general belief in Jesus, then all of them should be, because they all believe in the same God. This is the logic you are arguing_

If you go back and read what I really said you'd see that it's not just the belief in Jesus' existence, but as the Son of God and belief in his teachings within the NT, with the OT used as reference. That is what a Christian is, whether Catholic or not. Do I have to put an underscore at the end of my sentence for this to finally sink in_

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I don't have much faith in specific online sources, as I believe that the internet is more heresy and opinion than anything else, especially when it comes to this topic. Nonetheless, I have found some sites that seem to have enough backbone and detail to serve some validation.

These are debating issues which have been brought up, and each has a link.

1.) http://www.markbeast.com/satan/history-of-satan.htm

This explains the context that Jesus was an angel before man was even created, much less 2000 years when he descended to Earth. It also validates that Lucifer was one of the most powerful angels before his fall, next to Jesus himself.

2.)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/670-islam-christians-same-god

This tells in detail how Islam and Christianity contrast as they gather around the same god. It also gives logic as to why they conflict.

3.)http://www.patheos.com/Library/Roman-Catholicism/Origins/Founders.html

This will explain that even though Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, it was not found by Jesus but rather his apostles to bring an administrative head of church.
It also shows that contemporary Christianity is not ideal by Catholicism, and that the Catholic church was the original doctrine of Christianity. Though in all technically they are all 'Christians' by exact definition, they have very imposing views on how it should be interpreted. Unlike Methodists and small branches of free-form Christianity who may sprinkle instead of dunk when baptising or something to that degree, Catholicism and contemporary Christianity actually have considerable differences. This is why they do not lope period.
This is why Jews and Muslims should be denominations of each other if you interpret Christians and Catholics as being the same. Where Christians and Catholics base around Jesus and conflict, Jews and Muslims base around Moses and conflict. Mahammud interpreted the OT differently then Jews, and they have a bloody history.
Just like Catholics and Christians. A contemporary Christian today would be punished by Catholics then.

Nonetheless, this is why I assert the notion of there being four sides.

The origin of Islam and the contrast between them and Jews can be explained here:
http://contenderministries.org/islam/muhammad.php


For someone that is so rude and insensitive, as some may call me, I was only giving an opportunity for certain people to not put their foot in their mouth//
Anyways, hopefully this will be enough to bring this debate back to a more enjoyable level_

Note: I reasserted the idea of respect over and over again, stating that this is a theological discussion and that if you feel you must give bias opinion to simply not get involved in this thread. It's a religious debate afterall, and if you cannot handle having to educate yourself and would rather be stubborn, people such as me eventually start losing patience. It would've been very easy to for anyone of you to quickly Google something and check my validation, and yet I get neg-repped, ganged up on, and chewed out?
This is exactly why I lost my patience. Shallow speculation is something that does not belong in any debate, and I would appreciate it if some real thought was involved before posting.

 

[Saints&Storms]

I like how you edited out that you can be responsible for making us use our brains, dude, but your post rude nonetheless, because you are telling us we were in "denial" when the only one whose in denial is you; not only have you not read the Bible but you don't even know what you're talking about here. No one is bullying anyone man, the only one bullying someone is you. Get you foot out of your mouth and your head out your ass.

Are you giving an example on something, to try and compare it to whats going on here, about your opinion. Dude I don't want to hear your opinion on Christians its obviously warped, and lacking true definition, so your little comparison and example was just a fail.

Allah of the Qur'an and God of the Bible, two different Gods. They act different, say different things, and have different views of humanity. I have proven this. I never said they were different because their "names", you are pulling arguments out you ass man. I and differentiating through my words to show you the difference instead of saying "Islamic God" every time.

So then leave the spite at the door, not that hard. I haven't insulted you. Pf course you don't have anything else to say, usual Atheist, they come, talk shit, and quit.

I already proved your wrong man, you go ahead be all you can be and keep patting yourself on the back. Jesus wasn't an angel, never rivaled by Lucifer, He's Gods Son, please do us all a favor and pick up a Bible.

Silly, sum, we actually read the Bible we don't Google it or Use Wiki, as you have said you do. Go buy a Bible, read the Old and New Testaments and then maybe we'll take you post into consideration.

Right, you don't have faith in online sources, you just told us you didn't have time to post "wiki's" awhile back man, you are just lying to yourself now. Oh, my, he's posting online sources as if it were God himself. I don't care how people twist the Bible, stop showing us other peoples "Essay's" and debate for yourself, but that's right you can't because it obvious you rely solely on Online sources.

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Surah 9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Here, from the Surah, Allah denies Jesus Christ as the Savior and Messiah - Son of God. That can't be the same God. For he is saying something the God of the Bible would never say. Muslims believe in Muhammad, Jews Don not. Christians and Catholic both follow the teaching and belief that Jesus is the Messiah and Savior, Only Son of God. The Difference is nowhere near the same. Christians and Catholics share a Common Character; Jesus as the Messiah. Jews and Muslims DO NOT.

Not only was Jesus not an angel, but he WAS the Son of God and God himself as man. Your attempt at making them the same as Muslims and Jews is a completely shaky foundation. Wrong in every aspect.

[Matthew, 1;21 - "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."]

You must be trying to twist this verse into something it isn't, I won't even bother to read online sources, because contrast to your popular belief THE internet is not the word of God Himself.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][John 1:3 - Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.[/FONT]]

Jesus was not an Angel, but God himself, Angels do not and did not create the universe, God did, so for the Bible to say 'through Him all things were made' does infact prove he was not an angel, because angels did not create the world, humanity as in everything/all things, God did.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Jesus, is not an Angel, but Gods Only Son. He has always been there with God because he is God Himself. Not an angel, like I said Angels didn't create all there is, God did.

[John 1:15 - 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "]

Jesus, again, being stated as coming before John, who was actually before him, John. Not meaning he was an Angel, because again -- angels did not create everything, and everything was not created through them. But God.

[Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. ]

Before all ages, now and ever more? Only God was before all ages and everything, not angels, angels did not come before God. Nor are they to thank for everything, and was everything created through them.

---

So, like Harlequin said, its not simply that we agree that Jesus existed, that makes us the same religion, but our knowledge in him as our savior, Lord and MESSIAH the Only Son of God. He was not an ANGEL, he was God himself.

[/FONT]

 

[CassinoChips]

Alright everyone, lets tone it down a few notches. No reason to get worked up and take shots. Take it to PM if you're having problems. Thank you, carry on.

Just to reiterate this. You can argue the information and the methods of debate without resorting to things like calling each other "rude," or saying that they "don't understand [their] own religion." That's unnecessary, and it's poor debate technique on top of that. Keep it civil, please.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I like how you edited out that you can be responsible for making us use our brains, dude, but your post rude nonetheless, because you are telling us we were in "denial" when the only one whose in denial is you; not only have you not read the Bible but you don't even know what you're talking about here. No one is bullying anyone man, the only one bullying someone is you. Get you foot out of your mouth and your head out your ass.

Are you giving an example on something, to try and compare it to whats going on here, about your opinion. Dude I don't want to hear your opinion on Christians its obviously warped, and lacking true definition, so your little comparison and example was just a fail.

Allah of the Qur'an and God of the Bible, two different Gods. They act different, say different things, and have different views of humanity. I have proven this. I never said they were different because their "names", you are pulling arguments out you ass man. I and differentiating through my words to show you the difference instead of saying "Islamic God" every time.

So then leave the spite at the door, not that hard. I haven't insulted you. Pf course you don't have anything else to say, usual Atheist, they come, talk shit, and quit.

I already proved your wrong man, you go ahead be all you can be and keep patting yourself on the back. Jesus wasn't an angel, never rivaled by Lucifer, He's Gods Son, please do us all a favor and pick up a Bible.

Silly, sum, we actually read the Bible we don't Google it or Use Wiki, as you have said you do. Go buy a Bible, read the Old and New Testaments and then maybe we'll take you post into consideration.

Right, you don't have faith in online sources, you just told us you didn't have time to post "wiki's" awhile back man, you are just lying to yourself now. Oh, my, he's posting online sources as if it were God himself. I don't care how people twist the Bible, stop showing us other peoples "Essay's" and debate for yourself, but that's right you can't because it obvious you rely solely on Online sources.

----
Surah 9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Here, from the Surah, Allah denies Jesus Christ as the Savior and Messiah - Son of God. That can't be the same God. For he is saying something the God of the Bible would never say. Muslims believe in Muhammad, Jews Don not. Christians and Catholic both follow the teaching and belief that Jesus is the Messiah and Savior, Only Son of God. The Difference is nowhere near the same. Christians and Catholics share a Common Character; Jesus as the Messiah. Jews and Muslims DO NOT.

Not only was Jesus not an angel, but he WAS the Son of God and God himself as man. Your attempt at making them the same as Muslims and Jews is a completely shaky foundation. Wrong in every aspect.

[Matthew, 1;21 - "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."]

You must be trying to twist this verse into something it isn't, I won't even bother to read online sources, because contrast to your popular belief THE internet is not the word of God Himself. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][John 1:3 - Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.[/FONT]]

Jesus was not an Angel, but God himself, Angels do not and did not create the universe, God did, so for the Bible to say 'through Him all things were made' does infact prove he was not an angel, because angels did not create the world, humanity as in everything/all things, God did. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Jesus, is not an Angel, but Gods Only Son. He has always been there with God because he is God Himself. Not an angel, like I said Angels didn't create all there is, God did.

[John 1:15 - 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "]

Jesus, again, being stated as coming before John, who was actually before him, John. Not meaning he was an Angel, because again -- angels did not create everything, and everything was not created through them. But God.

[Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. ]

Before all ages, now and ever more? Only God was before all ages and everything, not angels, angels did not come before God. Nor are they to thank for everything, and was everything created through them.

---

So, like Harlequin said, its not simply that we agree that Jesus existed, that makes us the same religion, but our knowledge in him as our savior, Lord and MESSIAH the Only Son of God. He was not an ANGEL, he was God himself.

[/FONT]

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, I just can't think of any other way of putting it. To put facts in it's rightful place and to defend my perspective, I have to say that your argument is starting to run dry. None of those verses are relevant to anything I have stated, except maybe that Jesus was God's only son. The only thing I can say about that in lieu of the strong, universally known basis that Jesus was an angel before incarnation is this:
He's God's only son because he was an angel that became man. He was the "flesh of God".

As for everything else, especially the idea that these religions worship a different God, is so beyond falsity and blatant spite that I am not venturing on that subject anymore. It's quite literally unarguable, as I have defined, exemplified, and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, time and time again, that they all speak of the same god.

Not only that, but I don't see any logical basis for Catholics/Christians being so versed just because you want to look at it one-sided.
Which I don't understand, because just adding another element to my argument before, Catholics don't even like you.. they shut themselves off from free-lance Christianity because they think it is false.
The only reason why they are not at each others throats is because of Jesus' teachings. Jews/Muslims believe in the orthodox view of God, in which blasphemy is an intolerable betrayal, only fixed through orthodox repentance.
This is also why Jews and Muslims have stayed, in relevance, constant. I think your mixing up my view on Christians. I don't have a warped view, they just simply warp their views.

And the whole "I've never touched Bible" thing- I've read the Bible plenty. In reality, how could I not have with this much information? I know all about wikis. I was being sarcastic if you hadn't noticed. You are relishing on a straw man argument, and this simply just needs to stop. I want to talk about something more than a fact that you can't accept, and if you can't do that than I'd recommend you stray away from this thread.
This is me trying to be proactive, because I'm tired of people being offended and attacking with bias thought. I brought this up at the beginning of the thread_ And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again...

It's a discussion that realistically does not have room for religious ana, but I feel that idea is long gone. The only thing I can say is that of course your going to get offended if you throw up bias ideas in ones face. Just like I can't expect everybody to open up their minds, you can't expect everyone to close them.

 

[Harlequin]

Catholics don't even like you.. they shut themselves off from free-lance Christianity because they think it is false.

Are you incapable of coming to the realisation that not all Catholics feel animosity towards non Catholic Christians? Or what is it a part of Catholicism to dislike non Catholic Christians?

I had a few Catholic friends before reading this. I had no idea they disliked me thanks for the heads up, I'll pull them up on this next time I see them.

This is me trying to be proactive, because I'm tired of people being offended and attacking with bias thought. I brought this up at the beginning of the thread_ And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again...

Don't flatter yourself by mistaking people pulling you up on your arguments as anything personal.

The only thing I can say is that of course your going to get offended if you throw up bias ideas in ones face. Just like I can't expect everybody to open up their minds, you can't expect everyone to close them.

>open minded
>everyone else is narrow minded

The logic is impeccable.

 

[Terra Branford]

Which I don't understand, because just adding another element to my argument before, Catholics don't even like you.. they shut themselves off from free-lance Christianity because they think it is false.

Excuse me?

He's God's only son because he was an angel that became man. He was the "flesh of God".

.....

What? Because he was an angel? What Bible have you've been reading? Who told you that? "Because he was an angel" is false, very false.

Jesus Christ is higher than Angels, which is why we are to glorify him. So, yea...I suspect that "Bible" you read was poorly, poorly translated....

And the whole "I've never touched Bible" thing- I've read the Bible plenty. In reality, how could I not have with this much information?

I doubt that by going on what you have said through this thread...

Christians seem to be the only people to proclaim their God is not the same, and it's usually out of spite.

Out of spite? Huh whaa?

We say that our God is different because He is, not that we are "spiteful".