The Four Sides of God

[Sum1sgruj]

I figured I'd put this up for discussion because, even though it has been mentioned from time to time, it hasn't been analyzed and interpreted.

Christian, Catholic, Islamic, and Judaic religion.

All of them have one thing in common: they all believe in the same god.
Yet, they all conflict with each other. Some are minor, and some are major.

Lets look at Christianity and Catholicism first- they both hold the New Testament at heart, yet they have different takes when it comes to Jesus and Mary. Here are some examples: Christians believe that Jesus can be prayed to directly, and that church is not necessary for redemption. Catholics believe that Mary is holy, as she is the vessel of Christ. Yet, I can see the justification in why Christians would argue this, but Catholics make good points themselves. For example, Christians hold the cross as a symbol, without Jesus being perched on it. The cross was one of many death penalties back then. The cross itself was nothing more than a death-stick for murderes, thieves, and of course, alleged blasphemers.

Now, unto Judaism and Islam: They both hold the Old Testament to heart (not exactly, but it's easier to just think of it this way). They do not get along, period. One thing they have in common is that neither one of them believe in Jesus being the Messiah. Muslims do not like Jews because they do not follow, in their eyes, to being the 'chosen ones', which makes them false. Jesus was a contributing factor to this idea. It was told by Islam themselves that this is the reason they have been persecuted for 1000s of years, all the way up to the Holocaust.
Of course, Jews do not like this at all, as they do not believe in Jesus being the Messiah either and reference Muhammud as a blasphemer.
Pretty much, it's an unsolvable issue between the two, and is a lot more dangerous than the conflicts between Christianity and Catholicism.

All four of these religions have always been warring with each other, yet they all believe in the same god..
I want to know people's thoughts on this as it is something rarely talked about and I fell it should be discussed/debated//warred etc. Swing away!

 

[Harlequin]

Let me tell you somethin bro, Catholics are Christians, they believe in Jesus as the Son of God. The practices are different, Catholicism being undeniably institutionalised and Christianity being a belief alone.

Another thing, conflicts? Who on Earth speaks for Christianity in it's entirety? I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this one...

No... MY God is not the same as what Muslims follow. Period.

yeah innit wtf

get the fuck on with all our religions being 'at war' with eachother sumgrujfjdkofndoksnvojdsnbvjodsnvjds

 

[Valvalis]

Really, there is no "war" between religions... The Jews and the Muslims hate each other and are fighting. But you don't see Christians/Catholics fighting anyone.


All "three" versions of God are completely different.

Example, my God is loving and forgiving. The Islamic version of God is unforgiving and harsh. It offends me when I'm told that my God is considered the same God as the one that inspires such hatred and pure violence such as Islam.


They're all completely different, they're supposed to be the same... but they're not.

The Crusades involved huge wars between Christians and Muslims, though. So, Christians have fought people from other religious backgrounds in the past. And there is still plenty of violence and hatred between several different religions; it's just that it may be on a smaller scale sometimes, and not available to hear about on the major news networks.

Essentially, to keep it short, any religion can inspire violence in people if the people themselves are pricks who aren't accepting of their neighbors that are different :dave:

 

[Harlequin]

The Crusades involved huge wars between Christians and Muslims, though. So, Christians have fought people from other religious backgrounds in the past. And there is still plenty of violence and hatred between several different religions; it's just that it may be on a smaller scale sometimes, and not available to hear about on the major news networks.

Essentially, to keep it short, any religion can inspire violence in people if the people themselves are pricks who aren't accepting of their neighbors that are different :dave:

Remember that the Crusades were actually sanctioned by the Pope, the head of Catholicism on Earth. To attribute those acts to Christianity is a gross inaccuracy.

 

[DarkShadow]

I'm leaning more over to sumgrujkghdkhgfdk here........

They do believe and pray to the same god, but practisce it in different ways. The islamic god is no different to the Christian......ok?

Christians and Muslims have different views of their God and this is where they go astray.......The muslims follow by what is set in the Quran and christians by whats in the bible of course.

Yes there is no war and if ya ask me..........but anyway look at history,christianity was much more violent than it is nowadays. Look at history the battle between Catholics and Protestant,the war for Israel between the crusader and saladins army.
But thankfully Christians have evolved and are less extreme then they were before, however Islam muslims and also arent unforgivng and harsh......there just mis-interpretated my the media and the person above. Only major difference when talking about Jesus between Islam and Christianity is that they don't believe he is the son of god or died on a cross. Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the quran, the qurans view on him other than the cross and son of god thing is not much difference to the bibles.

 

[Valvalis]

Remember that the Crusades were actually sanctioned by the Pope, the head of Catholicism on Earth. To attribute those acts to Christianity is a gross inaccuracy.

Well what I meant was, it was people acting in the name of Christianity, and not the religion itself that inspired the violence, because it's possible to read any religious text and not be driven to violence, though the possibility is also there to derive violent doctrines from it. I've always seen Catholicism as a subdivision of Christianity tbh, more so than a separate religion

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Really, there is no "war" between religions... The Jews and the Muslims hate each other and are fighting. But you don't see Christians/Catholics fighting anyone.


All "three" versions of God are completely different.

Example, my God is loving and forgiving. The Islamic version of God is unforgiving and harsh. It offends me when I'm told that my God is considered the same God as the one that inspires such hatred and pure violence such as Islam.


They're all completely different, they're supposed to be the same... but they're not.

See, this is what keeps the gears turning though. The Islamic God is forgiving, just a little more harsh. Islam does not bar the Old Testament like Christians do. Before Jesus, the entirety of the holy text was dark and relatively brutal. If you read it, you'll see what I'm saying. You must sacrifice or repent in some way for you're sins.
This, of course, gives Christians the idea that Islam is a bad religion, when really most of it is based on the foundations of their own.
This also implies to Judaism in lieu of Christianity. Moses was the founder of them, not Jesus, who came around 1000's of years later.

There has always been a strain against Christians and Catholics. Sure, they are not technically at 'war', but they have enough beef with each other to be assumed different. Maybe not entirely different religions, but enough to outline them separately.
Why do you think people fled to America? It was because of the the Church's persecution. Thus, Christianity became the cornerstone, not Catholicism. In fact, Catholics did not start turning up in America until immigration set in.

NOTE: This is a theological discussion. If anyone is offended, then please refrain from posting. By extension, if anyone feels the need to insult a given religion, they should also refrain from posting. Thanx.

 

[Shaissa]

All "three" versions of God are completely different.

Example, my God is loving and forgiving. The Islamic version of God is unforgiving and harsh. It offends me when I'm told that my God is considered the same God as the one that inspires such hatred and pure violence such as Islam.


They're all completely different, they're supposed to be the same... but they're not.

And how do you think that the Islamic god is unforgiving and harsh????
I have a friend who is Islam, and as far as I can tell, he believes many similar things as Christians...and there god is forgiving, and they beileve in nonviolence.... there are certain parts of the Koran that radicals misinterpert... and to say there are no radical christians is a joke...just cause we dont hear about them dont mean there out there... just saying... God told Aberham to Kill his son... God told his people to go invade Canaan...which is now Isreal...
Christians will take these verses to say god wants us to get rid of all Muslims.... but thats not true... I hope not at least...

Edit: Sumone beat me to the punch

and seriously people dont just say "my gods better and thats that" or whatever these one line debates are.... I like to study a lot of reglions...and fwi there are more versions of christianities in the world than anything else...just saying...the bible is taking in many contects...

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I've always seen Catholicism as a subdivision of Christianity tbh, more so than a separate religion

Christianity is by far the smallest branch of God. Catholicism dwarfs them, and yet Islam is the largest.

This is true on the population scale, and it goes hand in hand with the holy texts as well- The Old Testament covers 4000+ years. The New Testament covers 33. It's an extension of the original texts by Jesus and his affiliates. However true the New Testament may or may not be, there are still 4000+ years of history that other religions are simply not going to let go because of an unproven Messiah.
That is why Christians/Catholics need to respect other religions, because they are the ones believing an extremity, not Jews or Muslims.
But really, every branch of God commands that you respect your neighbors. None of them are violent, and none of them can really be proven as being 'blasphemy'. You are not doing a service to God by pointing fingers, you are doing a service to your Adversary, another being that all sides of God are aware of.

By all this, I am not knocking any religion. I am simply analyzing the precepts of human condition in lieu of the holy texts of God.

However, Gamingway and Dark Palidin made excellent points about violence and religion. There are extremist factions within all of them. The Al Queda and the Ku Klux Clan are good examples.

And Darkshadow makes a great point with bias opinion and media twists. People have a bad interpretation on Muslims and none of it is backed by any truth at all. This misinterpretation is brought on by what I like to call 'lazy logic'. If it is wrong to be racist because of a handful of people you don't like that just happen to be a different race, then what is it to down Islam because of extremists?

 

[Harlequin]

The Islamic God is forgiving, just a little more harsh. Islam does not bar the Old Testament like Christians do.

Rules are rules. They're as harsh as eachother.

I don't know how you've come to the opinion that Christians denounce the OT. Is it not a part of the Bible?

Christianity is by far the smallest branch of God. Catholicism dwarfs them, and yet Islam is the largest.

Christianity is the largest religion in the world. That said, with the majority of the western 'liberal' world bending over backwards to accomodate Islam that could change very soon.

 

[Stoic Hero]

Christianity is a religion. Catholicism is a denomination. Both Catholics and Protestants are Christians. Catholics are actually the first Christians, which Protestants (which you are calling generic "Christians") broke away from not very long ago.

The Catholics and Protestants worship the same God. They believe in one savior, Jesus Christ, and they also believe that Christians are saved by faith in Jesus (as in, Jesus saves us not because of our works, but because of HIS works). Where they differ is in the traditional things. Catholics believe in mediators and hierarchy. The Pope is the voice of the Church. Confession, while not exactly "necessary," is seen as crucial to fully getting past sins and getting over them. Think of the priest as your "accountability partner" and you start to make the connections with Protestantism. The virgin Mary is NOT seen as God, or even on the same level. She IS seen as the best women that ever lived and the mother of God, which aren't inaccurate. You also have the saints, which intermediate between you and God. Protestants believe in a much more individual faith. Everything is between you and God, and the only time you have other people inter mediating is when you have accountability partners. And, of course, some Protestants differ from others, like Church of Christ not believing in music and dance during service, but Baptists do it and enjoy it. There are more differences, and all in all, the differences are significant, but NOT NECESSARY for redemption or salvation. That's the key that makes them Christians.

Now, as far as Christians vs Muslims, they are similar in a lot of ways, but salvation is the most crucial difference and one that makes following Islam wrong in the eyes of Christianity. There is no salvation by faith in Islam, you have NO guarantee, unlike Christians who have the promise of Christ's salvation. Jews worship the same God as Christians, but they are almost in the same boat as Muslims, if they don't accept Christ as the Messiah that was promised in the Torah. Christians have accepted Christ as that Messiah and fully believe him to be the ultimate sacrifice for our sin, the true high priest, and the one righteous mediator between God and man. Jews and Muslims don't have that. They're both based on works, and seeing as how no man is perfect, they aren't guaranteed salvation like Christians, since Jesus was perfect and can defeat sin and death.

Hope that clears some stuff up for you =)

Rules are rules. They're as harsh as eachother.

I don't know how you've come to the opinion that Christians denounce the OT. Is it not a part of the Bible?

We can learn a lot from the Old Testament, but it is exactly what it sounds like. The "old" Testament. With the "New" Testament, we finally understand God and what he wants. He wants us to love, forgive, and live in peace with each other. This includes following his commandments. And he wants us to have faith in Jesus Christ, who can save us from eternal death because of his love for us.

OT tends to paint God as an angry God, but that was probably because Jesus had not come yet. After Jesus came and died for us, our debt was paid and God's infinite love can now shower down on us. The only real thing keeping us from God is our free will, which is kind of humorous.

 

[Shaissa]

Just an intresting fact for you guys.... just figures... and just so you all know im not taking any side on religion i am athiest..... so dont think im supporting one side or the other... but here are numbers for you guys and i got my info at http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

and other sources have comfirmed this...obviously it can be more or less... so take this as approximation...

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.5 billion
3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. Hinduism: 900 million
5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. Buddhism: 376 million
7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 15 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Baha'i: 7 million
14. Jainism: 4.2 million
15. Shinto: 4 million
16. Cao Dai: 4 million
17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

You can look up what each one is if you want...

And I have a question for people if they dont mind answering it for me...
What is your religion and where are you from?

My theory on religion is that its mostly based on where your from and what your family believes...now i know theres exceptions to that but im saying as a whole...

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Rules are rules. They're as harsh as eachother.

I don't know how you've come to the opinion that Christians denounce the OT. Is it not a part of the Bible?



Christianity is the largest religion in the world. That said, with the majority of the western 'liberal' world bending over backwards to accomodate Islam that could change very soon.

Christianity is by far the smallest. They broke off from the Catholic church and formed their own free-for-all Christian concepts. This is not to be confused- Catholicism was Christianity. It was the central governing idea of it. Radical Christians decided it only fair that they should practice it their own way.
Christianity is the smallest branch. Catholicism is the second largest. Sorry if i wasn't more elaborate.

Anyways, Jesus was the one who denounced not everything, but many things, in the Old Testament. Any real Christian would know this_
Why do you think he was crucified?

The Western world is generally more powerful and advanced than most of the East. This is not found in population, it is found in wealth. Roughly 23% of the worlds population is Muslim. The only thing 'liberals' are accomodating for is the billion+ Muslims that could pour into western culture.

 

[Harlequin]

Christianity is by far the smallest. They broke off from the Catholic church and formed their own free-for-all Christian concepts. This is not to be confused- Catholicism was Christianity. It was the central governing idea of it. Radical Christians decided it only fair that they should practice it their own way.

No way dude what the fuck? Christianity isn't institutionalised. It's a belief that's it. Where are you draggin this nonsense from?

Anyways, Jesus was the one who denounced not everything, but many things, in the Old Testament. Any real Christian would know this_
Why do you think he was crucified?

I'll ignore the blatant insult on my character and ask you to provide quotes, if you can find them

 

[Stoic Hero]

Christianity is by far the smallest. They broke off from the Catholic church and formed their own free-for-all Christian concepts. This is not to be confused- Catholicism was Christianity. It was the central governing idea of it. Radical Christians decided it only fair that they should practice it their own way.
Christianity is the smallest branch. Catholicism is the second largest. Sorry if i wasn't more elaborate.

Anyways, Jesus was the one who denounced not everything, but many things, in the Old Testament. Any real Christian would know this_
Why do you think he was crucified?

The Western world is generally more powerful and advanced than most of the East. This is not found in population, it is found in wealth. Roughly 23% of the worlds population is Muslim. The only thing 'liberals' are accomodating for is the billion+ Muslims that could pour into western culture.

Did you completely ignore my post?

You aren't very knowledge about what you're talking about. This is evident in you calling Protestants "radical Christians." Jesus did not denounce the law. He just provides a way to heaven apart from the law. The law is still very much real and God still very much cares about right and wrong. Don't confuse an act of mercy with an act of acceptance. God does not condone sin and evil any more than he did back in the OT, he's just provided us a way to salvation apart from our own righteousness.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

No way dude what the fuck? Christianity isn't institutionalised. It's a belief that's it. Where are you draggin this nonsense from?



I'll ignore the blatant insult on my character and ask you to provide quotes, if you can find them

Look, I am not providing quotes from the NT, ok? Honestly, you are being highly negligent of your own religion.
If you are Christian, you have to denounce many things in the OT. Jesus said not to sacrifice, but believe in him. Jesus said to follow him and the Commandments, and nothing more. Christians do not even so much as stay away from pork. They do not praise Moses or any other biblical character in the Bible, even to a respectable degree. Because Jesus taught this. This is the teachings of Christianity.
Is it setting in now?

And for the first bit, where you say Christianity isn't institutionalised.. It isn't. Except for Catholics lol. This what I was saying in my last post.
In all technicality, Christianity is the largest if you include the Vatican, but this is a bad, bad way of looking at it, because you are grouping two different concepts of Jesus. The relationship between Jews and Muslims can coincide with Catholics and Christians. They have two different concepts of the same damn thing.. Yet they are considered separate religions.. and they are alot more fierce about it_ This is because their religions are much more orthodox and leaves no room for debate, unlike Christians and Catholics.

Because I can see a little bit of venom starting to set in, I am going to assert this notion once more:

This is a theological discussion. If you are offended, please refrain from posting. By extension, if you feel the need to insult a religion, please refrain from posting. Thanx

 

[Shaissa]

Christianity is by far the smallest. They broke off from the Catholic church and formed their own free-for-all Christian concepts. This is not to be confused- Catholicism was Christianity. It was the central governing idea of it. Radical Christians decided it only fair that they should practice it their own way.
Christianity is the smallest branch. Catholicism is the second largest. Sorry if i wasn't more elaborate. .

So your saying Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity???

I'm just trying to figure out what your saying... because I just gave proof that Christianity is the biggest religion in the world...you can look it up anywhere.... books, internet whatever you want...
and Catholics call themselves Christians just a little FWI.... and I think they would be insulted if you thought they arn't Christians now.

and I'm not offended I'm just trying to figure out where your train of thought is.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

So your saying Catholicism isn't a form of Christianity???

I'm just trying to figure out what your saying... because I just gave proof that Christianity is the biggest religion in the world...you can look it up anywhere.... books, internet whatever you want...
and Catholics call themselves Christians just a little FWI.... and I think they would be insulted if you thought they arn't Christians now.

and I'm not offended I'm just trying to figure out where your train of thought is.

I edited my last post, so it might not have been re-posted in time lol. But my rationale is on this is included.
But to be even more thorough on the broader subject, there is a gaping difference between Christianity and Catholicism when it comes to Jesus and Mary. It's enough to logically separate them as religions. They both believe Jesus is the Messiah, yes. It's just how Muslims and Jews believe in the God of Moses. But Muslims and Jews are separated, so Christians and Catholics have to be separated as well.
Catholics pray to Mary. They instruct people to turn to them, not to Jesus personally. They are the charges from Jesus to redeem man.
This is why Catholics are not called Christians. This is why Christians are not called Catholics.
Catholicism is the original religion of Jesus. This is a monumental truth to take in_ it is misconstrued by many people, but if you look back to the 1st churches of Christ, they were of Catholic belief. This is where the term orthodox comes in when you look at Catholic influence.
Orthodox Christianity and contemporary Christianity are very, very different. Christianity in it's general consensus is little more than a namesake in this respect.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

And I have a question for people if they dont mind answering it for me...
What is your religion and where are you from?

Strictly speaking, I'm an Agnostic-Atheist (I don't believe in God, but don't deny the POSSIBILITY of there being a higher power or some form of afterlife due to a lack of true knowledge).

But recently, after reading the Satanic Bible out of curiosity, I'm seriously considering referring myself as a Satanist (and no, that does not mean staying up late to perform randy blood rituals to a horned fella). Because it is a religion based on logic and rational thinking, making a lot more sense than pretty much any other religion on the planet. Not that I really have anything against other religions as such (it's some of the followers I get pissed off with) but I prefer to keep things 'real' rather than let some stories dictate how I should go through life. Most Western people thesedays are Satanists anyway they just don't know it. Infact a lot of so called 'Christians' embrace Satanic views, incorporating them into modern day Christianity. It's all about being true to yourself.

 

[Saints&Storms]

No, no, no. In the Qur'an Allah himself denies Chirst as the Messiah, the God of Christianity would simply not do that since in the Bible Jesus is acknowledged and claimed as the only Son of God. So, how on Earth can Islam and Christianity possibly follow the same God is beyond me. But to each his own I suppose.

And I didn't know a Holy War was going on. Since when and who called this war? Its not the Crusades anymore that was a long time ago, and it was over the Promised Land, not simply because of a religious feud we had. It was not a problematic thing based solely on Religious indifference.

You know what every single Christian and Catholic does? Now, that's plain ridiculous. How do you know we don't acknowledged the other saints, such as Moses or any other holy figure? Hecause we do hold them all in high respects but we believe Jesus as the Messiah/Savior so we only PRAISE him. I'm sorry, where did Jesus say follow the Ten Commandment and nothing more? Because the parables and sermons say otherwise, I mean ofcourse we follow the Ten Commandment, they are the laws, but I am sure - no, certain we are supposed to follow it and more as well.

I mean of course Jesus did say he didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill it, but I can't recall him saying follow the Ten Commandments and nothing more...? Could you be referring to this?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

No, Catholics and Christians are the same thing in faith, but not in the way they follow their faith, they are indeed the same thing. I think though, that Christians believe that we are under grace while Catholics believe we are under the Ten Commandments. There is a severe difference between Jews and Muslims belief system - comparing Christians and Catholics relationship to that of Jews and Muslims relationship is a mistake. Since there is a horrible amount of vitriol between Judaism and Islam.

I don't think anyone has Venom for you OP, but I think what you were saying could make some mixed feelings as well, I think a lot of what you have said is off base though, so the misunderstanding is to blame not you.