US: Should churches be taxed?

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Shu

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Simple question. Should churches be taxed, just like any other business? Should the physical offering plates be hit with a 2-10% tax? Please tell us why or why not you think it should.
 
Why the hell not?
You wan't to bring the government into marriage? Then why leave them out of taxes? I mean, if we are going to be fair and everything... The separation of church and state is already a joke anyway.
 
Yes, everyone else does so why shouldn't they?
They earn so much money a year, they can afford to be taxed and the tax 'mostly' goes towards the people anyway (well here it does, I dunno about America, etc), so they should be A-OK with it.
 
If you're referring to institutionalised Religion like say, Catholicism then I don't really have an opinion on that but the members that make up a Church pay their taxes day to day whilst offerings tend to be more charity based to go toward the running of the place of worship or helping other communities. You wouldn't tax charity so why tax simple offerings?
 
Harlequin said:
If you're referring to institutionalised Religion like say, Catholicism then I don't really have an opinion on that but the members that make up a Church pay their taxes day to day whilst offerings tend to be more charity based to go toward the running of the place of worship or helping other communities. You wouldn't tax charity so why tax simple offerings?
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A preacher is a businessman, no? He has to sell the pitch and convince the audience to stay with a conviction or two from his mouth. Otherwise who wants a monotone person to read from a book and only recount tales of Jesus, instead of making it stick to something relational to today's young and old minds?

So with that said, you have your businessman. A business is a business. People get paid to preach. People get paid at times to be Deacons and Elders. People go on church trips for free. Ski trips, youth trips, you name it.. but still untaxed.

The church buys donuts, coffee and sometimes provides breakfast to all of their fellow church members. Even then sometimes they pay for huge thanksgiving meals. They also pay for HUGE! stain glass windows with scriptures, which is respectful, because even I can find beauty in stain glass. Though people have to make the materials, no?

So why are churches untaxed?
 
Shu said:
Simple question. Should churches be taxed, just like any other business? Should the physical offering plates be hit with a 2-10% tax? Please tell us why or why not you think it should.
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Protestant churches, culturally speaking, have always been a community thing. Traditionally, churches were very heavy in communities, and taxing them would have been equivalent to taxing social services. That tradition hasn't really gone away- churches are considered to be very positive influences on society, and so nobody really cares about taxing them because they serve a good purpose. Most churches get by on donations and whatnot anyway, they aren't profit organizations. In fact, the only people who give a damn about if they are paying taxes are the openly anti-religious.

The Catholic Church is on a completely different paradigm. The Vatican is literally it's own country, and all the churches that spawn from it are under bureaucracies, quid pro quos, and so on.
 
Jolly Boots of Doom said:
They honestly do use it to do good by the community, I know---I've lived it. So, for small churches, I don't think they should be taxed, no. I'm still contemplating whether or not the really really big churches should be taxed. It's something I'm indifferent about. :hmmm:
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Like this?

HARMAN_Lakewood.jpg


I have been to a church comparable to this, and it scares me how much energy it takes to run the place and how little that money will go to charity.

Just look at the incomes, now I can't validate the link, but I have seen these figures before on other sites:


http://okcsbs.com/blog/?p=7

Take a look at some figures. The median income for clergy nationwide is $81,577. 90% of clergy make more than $54,184. 75% of clergy make more than $67,467. 25% of clergy make more than $93,025. An astounding 10% of clergy make more than $103,012. (See the bell-curve here.) Now compare that to the national average household income, $43,318. Why is this the case?
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Well...being a churchmember I feel passionate about this subject and so I feel like I should speak a piece here.

Let me just say that I don't know what happens at all churces, but I do know what happens at mine. We supply the needy and homeless hot meals, food to take home and eat through church-run food pantries and Thanksgiving, Easter, and Christmas food baskets, we provide clothing donations by offering up winter scarfs, mittens and hats to the homeless and needy children in our area...we help tutor the neighborhood kids who don't have the electricity or heat at their homes (or even family members that have the ability to help them with their homework) that allow them a quiet, warm, and helpful study environment, we send church members and donated money to the Haiti relief when the earthquake hit, Japan when Tsunami hit, New Orleans and the north eastern area when the hurricanes hit. We also send world relief goods in the form of baby kits, handmade quilts (for the people who don't even have a roof over their heads, so these likely become their tents), school and health kits for those in the African countries who can't even afford the simplest of these items. Finally, we send donated monies and church members to help drill wells, set up simple health clinics and dental offices so the poorest of the poor can have clean drinking water and simple health care in various areas of Africa.

These are all DONATIONS and charity from people who already pay taxes to the high and mighty government of ours. I don't see the government going out of their way to provide for the poorest of the poor, so why put them in the highest of high esteems and say they should further tax churches such as mine so the poor and hungry get even less than they already do?

Some of these places are "businesses" that actually give back to the community as it is, just not in a taxable good form. Instead of being so sceptical of all churches and the dealings that go on within, maybe one could look beyond dollar signs and see some of the good that comes out of them. Because we help the religious, as well as the non religious through some tough times in their lives. I can't see why there should be a tax on caring about those less fortunate.

EDIT: and I have to say our Church does NOT look like the one above, Tyler :lew:
 
Heh, I haven't exactly put my opinion out there for a reason quite yet. I've only put some facts out there, that made people question it even more. If taxes were to happen, and I mean "if" it wouldn't be circumstantial of course. It would have to happen to even the smallest of churches unfortunately.

I'm a bit indifferent to be honest. While I'm not a christian, I'm also not an atheist. I see it like this.. if churches were taxed I see two negatives. Religion could automatically be entitled to more opinion in governmental affairs, which would scare the shiznit out of me. I won't assume to make generalizations as to why, only due to what has happened in the state of Mississippi.

Two, I see it causing more of a national divide. There has been enough of the back and forths. There has been enough of the inhumane disrespect of militant atheists and militant Christians, going at it like rabid dogs. This nation is now fragile, to tax the church I could see a huge ripple effect, and due to me living in the south as a non christian my family might unfortunately be out casted due to our strong stances.

I already fear every day that my faith will make it so that I will lose my job.

I do think preachers need to have a hefty tax at times, but as a whole churches being taxed might be the nightmare this country would be looking for.
 
Are nministers/preachers/whatever not taxed on their income paid to them by the church?
 
Yeah, that makes sense. That would have been the only issue I would have, is if employees of the churches aren't taxed on their annual income.

So I guess my next question would be, what exactly are we wanting to have taxed? Weekly tithes? Donations from wills? Monetary gifts? I don't think any of those should be taxed. Those are people willingly donating their money to the church.
 
Shu said:
Heh, I haven't exactly put my opinion out there for a reason quite yet. I've only put some facts out there, that made people question it even more. If taxes were to happen, and I mean "if" it wouldn't be circumstantial of course. It would have to happen to even the smallest of churches unfortunately.
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It would be nigh on impossible to tax small Churches. These Churches aren't institutions they're just gatherings and more often than not from what I've witnessed those who preach do so entirely voluntarily. The building is rented but there is no business, therefore the exchange of money is identical to me giving money to a friend. Is the government gonna tax that? You don't tax a bank transfer. Not without draconian measures at least.
 
I can't speak for all that tele-evangelism...whateverness, which is what LOOKS something similar to what Tyler posted, but not all churches are like that.

Our chuch is a small church and tbh, with the economy being crap and even myself not even working, our members are a lot of retired people and somehow survive on their social security checks alone and whatever other assistance they are fortunate enough to acquire...yet these elderly people somehow come in ready to help other people in need with whatever money they have left to spare and a can of peaches and a box of spaghetti so someone else can have something to eat too. We survive day-to-day on a complete shoestring. We have our staff cut back to the max and we even had to let our Parish nurse go. She went out and gave free health assessments and everyday health assistance to those who can't even afford insurance. We were fortunate enough to have a kitchen renovation done before the economy got completely crap so we could have a working kitchen so our daycare could have a means of serving food to it's children...and we still have that debt hanging over our heads. We will be fortunate if we can keep in the black as far as everything else goes this year, and blessed if we can keep our doors open in the years to come.

This isn't to put out a sob story to any of you, it's to show that not every chuch is some greedy money-eating business.
 
Shu said:
I have been to a church comparable to this, and it scares me how much energy it takes to run the place and how little that money will go to charity.
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This is the product of Texas' big Protestant love affair. Running that place and giving to charity is not an issue.
 
I find the word Protestant to be quite derogatory. It carries the implication these peoples' beliefs are centered around a denial of Catholicism rather than faith of their own concepts of Christianity.
 
Harlequin said:
I find the word Protestant to be quite derogatory. It carries the implication these peoples' beliefs are centered around a denial of Catholicism rather than faith of their own concepts of Christianity.
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Well that's exactly what Protestantism is. It's all in the name, you see. In the 16th century, Martin Luther and John Calvin dissented from Church dogma and openly protested against Catholicism. They took books out of the canon, denied the veneration of Mary, Purgatory, and the papal Keys which succeed from Peter. Calvin even whacked some Catholics in the process. The reason why Protestantism is so big tin America is because it was the New World., a place for them to escape Catholic prevalence.
 
This is the type of arrogance that makes me resent that word. I don't refer to myself as "Protestant" for the reasons I've stated earlier. Protesting against Catholicism is not a part of my faith. I ignore the Catholic church. The Pope is not my leader Jesus Christ is. But by referring to me as a "Protestant" immediately implies I've some concerns with the Pope and the Catholic church which, beyond pity, is certainly not the case.

If you want to describe me as that I could throw the same accusation in your face for not accepting Allah as the Almighty Lord and Muhammed pbuh as his messenger. It's not a question of you denying it or protesting it but rather not believing it from the off. To think of it as a protest is arrogant and derogatory to me.
 
If you have a problem the way things are being handled, take it up with an Administrator in private. Bitching in the thread only further derails the thread, which is what you were asked not to do in the first place. Any further posts not related to the topic will also be deleted, and may carry an infraction along with them. Consider this a final warning.
 
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