XV & VII Connected?

[The Witch]

We all know that Ultima weapon shows up as a battle in every FF title practically, so it's more like a running gag in the series (like chocobos and moogles and cactuar), but XV has the Weapons that are unique to ONLY VII:

Omega Weapon is above Gladiolus, (it's VII's Omega, not X's)
Sapphire Weapon is above Prompto,
Emerald Weapon is above the car,
And then there's Diamond Weapon in Kingsglaive:

I just can't figure out what Weapon (if it even is a Weapon) is to the far left and above Noctis. It can't be Ruby Weapon above Noct because Ruby has a long neck and long arms and lacks the six eyes and large shoulder blades. I suppose it COULD be Ultimate Weapon, but Ultimate Weapon doesn't have six eyes, but it does have those large shoulder blades in common. It could be SIN from X since it has the eyes like it, but the rest of the body is all wrong if it's SIN. And the monster to the far left seems to have a cross above it's head, too. But although it's really really familiar to me, I can't pinpoint what it is.

But if I'm being honest here, the monster to the far left looks like Jenova (which isn't a WEAPON), just a new design.

And if it isn't Jenova, then it's face reminds me of Zeromus EG from FFIV. But I doubt it's that. It could also be the Gi Nattak or Iron Giant (my sister thinks so at least). It could be Asura, too.


Anyway, these are integral parts of the XV story, they're not just random boss fights to obtain a special item, they appear to be actual antagonists for Noctis' gang, which makes me and a few others think that there is supposed to be a connection between this world and VII's world. And that's very likely since Square Enix already confirmed X and VII are connected.

Has anyone discussed this yet?

 

[Shu]

I think it really depends on how SE wants to spin it. As far as story lines connected, I doubt it to say the least. I mean there are many common elements of Final Fantasy spread throughout each of the games, so all are related in that sense. Also for the sake of the money per se, I don't think they would try to dissuade the user due to story confusion.

Here's what I mean. Most games are set apart in the story line due to clarity. Without a clear vision in the game, it has left some FF fans miffed at some of the franchise itself. I mean a lot of the questions you are asking here are valid. Though I don't think they would try to wrap another game around a game that came out so long ago (96).

Also since FFVII will be coming out in episodic format, I couldn't see them trying to branch out FFVII even further with Noctis and his crew.

Though Cali, I'll be perfectly honest, I haven't seen a lot of vision from SE in the single player element of the story line telling in some time. So if they do throw us all a curve ball and try to relate both games, well I would be surprised. Though I would say out of many games I've played FFVII needed a FFVII - 2 and to close all the dang loop/plot holes.

 

[redgrave]

I remember reading somewhere that the Knights of the Round are Notics' ancestors and his father is the 13th knight.

and Luna is possibly Jenova...

Kinda glossed over it but now that u referenced all this, it could quite possibly be true. Exciting to say the least although in all honesty Im not all that interested in FFXV.

 

[Rey]

While these comparisons are cool and all, FFXV is rivaling the incoming FFVII remake. It wouldn't make sense to have them connected since XV has been its own thing for a decade now. I'm pretty sure the weapons are paying homage more than anything but still this was a very interesting read, Cali. I just don't want them to be connected because I played VII and I want to be surprised by XV more than anything. Also, didn't Tabata say XV is like older FF games? Maybe this is what he means?

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

I think this is an absolutely silly and ludicrous idea, and one I don't want to see come to fruition. And that's good, because the 'proof' of this is nothing more than a few character designs and a bunch of absolutely random, surface level, circumstantial evidence. Therefore, I don't believe it, and don't have to worry about it being a reality.

The three biggest issues are:

1. That logically contradicts VII. Since in VII the Weapons are created by the planet, how, when, and why do they make it to the world of XV, particularly given the fact that they're sealed off before VII, and dead after VII? It makes no sense whatsoever. The only logical conclusion would be that XV's planet can also create Weapons, in which case that would indeed just be fanservice. Or I suppose they could be the same planet... which makes no sense, because even though some of the landforms between the two maps are vaguely similar, the actual lack of mountains in some places where they should be makes no sense (among many other things). That would also further complicate things, because it would imply that there are three (four if you include those that supposedly came from Spira) different civilizations that have lived on Gaia, and yet no signs of any of them but those in the present moment. That... and the fact that if Luna was Jenova, that'd mean she left Gaia... to go back to Gaia? Huh?

2. Even outside of lore-based problems, the argument made in that video also cherry picks information, with the person who made it being the one choosing what has just been fanservice in the past, and what hasn't been in order to make his point. But there have been plenty of major aspects to previous games used in later games. How about the summons? It's not exactly uncommon for the summons to be an integral part in an FF story. And many times, they're the same summons, with consistent personalities, designs, and everything else between games. They are effectively the same character reused in later plots, which have no connection to previous plots. This is a much more major aspect to FF than the Weapons, and it has been repurposed as a core piece of several different plots in the series... and yet it's clear that the games aren't connected. Which brings me to my final point.

3. New fans won't be any more lost than we were when we were new. I thought that all the FF games might be connected... until I realized they weren't. I wasn't confused, nor did I throw a fit and say that the writing was lazy, after I saw things like Ifrit, Shiva, etc. be used as a core part of VIII, and then later in X. This person is majorly underselling the ability for people to understand how things can be reused without being part of the same continuity. The reason why everyone's concerned with Zelda continuity? Because stupid Nintendo tried to offer a continuity. Before they tried to link all the games, nobody was confused, because they were okay with the idea that each game was largely its own thing. Nobody is confused when comic book continuities are rebooted, because -just like with Final Fantasy- it's made exceptionally clear to anyone who pays the least bit of attention, when things are directly related, and when they aren't.

Really, I think it's super cool that they're using these designs again. Unlike a lot of the more fantastical and mystical looking designs from games like XIII, XII, IX, etc., a lot of the designs for things in VII look legitimately dangerous and unsettling. The Weapons from VII have always made my heart flutter in fear whenever I see them. So seeing them come back in such visual detail is astonishing. But the idea that the games are connected is so far beyond just grasping at straws. It's all but completely nonsensical.

Next thing you know, people will be saying that Squall actually died at the end of the first disc in FFVIII... Oh wait...

 

[rowe]

Other than giving a nod to older games (including VII), I doubt it. Wouldn't be a smart play, since they have the episodic VII coming out in due time. Don't see the point of having even more VII tie-ins (through a main installment) just prior to its release. XV most definitely needs to be its own story; going the route of IX, though, by paying homage to the older games? I'd be down for that.

In short, let's not look into it that much. X/X-2 are connected to VII. Let that be it. Haha.

 

[The Witch]

Also since FFVII will be coming out in episodic format, I couldn't see them trying to branch out FFVII even further with Noctis and his crew.

I should have clarified in my first post, sorry. What I mean is, just because VII and XV could be connected doesn't mean Square Enix has to actually build storyline for it. They wanted to do this with X and VII way back but eventually just gave up and told the world that the games were connected because verbalizing it was easier than showing it in game format. So they could be doing the same with XV. The point of XV's storyline isn't about VII and it being connected and I'm not saying that Square Enix intends to further complicate either storyline by telling a story about it, I think they provided the WEAPONS because they just wanted fans to see that the two worlds are the same even though the storyline isn't about the two games being the same world.

I remember reading somewhere that the Knights of the Round are Notics' ancestors and his father is the 13th knight.

and Luna is possibly Jenova...

Kinda glossed over it but now that u referenced all this, it could quite possibly be true. Exciting to say the least although in all honesty Im not all that interested in FFXV.

I'd love to read those.

While these comparisons are cool and all, FFXV is rivaling the incoming FFVII remake. It wouldn't make sense to have them connected since XV has been its own thing for a decade now. I'm pretty sure the weapons are paying homage more than anything but still this was a very interesting read, Cali. I just don't want them to be connected because I played VII and I want to be surprised by XV more than anything. Also, didn't Tabata say XV is like older FF games? Maybe this is what he means?

That's the reason I think they're putting these details in the game. XV is already hyped up, but if VII fans had the slightest idea that XV and VII could be connected, it would make even more hype in the fandom. I know it made me more interested when I saw the WEAPONS (I already was into XV but this added to it).

Paying homage would be a logical assumption to make if it were Ultima, because that has been in every FF title. But all of those WEAPONS, especially Omega and that specific Diamond WEAPON design are unique to just FFVII. I would agree that these were supposed to be homage (or fanservice) to FFVII if the WEAPONS were just special side quests that the player could do to get rare items, but it appears that these WEAPONS are integral parts of XV's story. That'd be pretty lazy on their part to make a huge part of the XV story be a mere homage. To think they'd want something unique for their epic tale... Using the VII WEAPONS has to be for a reason other than homage. If it were just homage that would be completely lazy. And seeing how they've been making this game for a decade, I don't think they'd be lazy like that. There are a lot of overwhelming details about XV and if they chose VII's WEAPONS for their antagonists than it could very well be because they're making a connection.

I'm glad you enjoyed the read. I hope that my theory comes true. That would be so cool. Because then X, VII, and XV would be connected.

I think this is an absolutely silly and ludicrous idea, and one I don't want to see come to fruition. And that's good, because the 'proof' of this is nothing more than a few character designs and a bunch of absolutely random, surface level, circumstantial evidence. Therefore, I don't believe it, and don't have to worry about it being a reality.

You realize that this wouldn't be the first time Square Enix connected another FF title to VII, right? And you're aware that Sapphire Weapon, Emerald Weapon, Diamond Weapon, and especially THAT design of Omega Weapon is ONLY unique to FFVII, right?

The three biggest issues are:

1. That logically contradicts VII. Since in VII the Weapons are created by the planet, how, when, and why do they make it to the world of XV, particularly given the fact that they're sealed off before VII, and dead after VII? It makes no sense whatsoever. The only logical conclusion would be that XV's planet can also create Weapons, in which case that would indeed just be fanservice. Or I suppose they could be the same planet... which makes no sense, because even though some of the landforms between the two maps are vaguely similar, the actual lack of mountains in some places where they should be makes no sense (among many other things). That would also further complicate things, because it would imply that there are three (four if you include those that supposedly came from Spira) different civilizations that have lived on Gaia, and yet no signs of any of them but those in the present moment. That... and the fact that if Luna was Jenova, that'd mean she left Gaia... to go back to Gaia? Huh?

You're getting ahead of the theory. We couldn't possibly know why or how it happened. Hell, we don't even know how X and VII are connected, but Kitase and Nojima confirmed that X and VII are of the same world. They didn't explain how or why, but they're still the same world. The same could be said for XV and VII.

If you watched the video the guy in it says that maybe this is the place where Omega weapon is created, or maybe this is thousands of years in the future where the WEAPONS come back.

2. Even outside of lore-based problems, the argument made in that video also cherry picks information, with the person who made it being the one choosing what has just been fanservice in the past, and what hasn't been in order to make his point. But there have been plenty of major aspects to previous games used in later games. How about the summons? It's not exactly uncommon for the summons to be an integral part in an FF story. And many times, they're the same summons, with consistent personalities, designs, and everything else between games. They are effectively the same character reused in later plots, which have no connection to previous plots. This is a much more major aspect to FF than the Weapons, and it has been repurposed as a core piece of several different plots in the series... and yet it's clear that the games aren't connected. Which brings me to my final point.

Summons are comparable to Chocobos and Cactuars and Moogles. They're not unique to any FF title, the VII Weapons, however, are unique to just FFVII and can only be found in VII. They are not replicated in any other FF title except for XV. That's very different from Summons.

But the idea that the games are connected is so far beyond just grasping at straws. It's all but completely nonsensical.

Again, if Nojima and Kitase have connected X and VII's storylines and said they were the same world, then there's no "grasping at straws" when we see Weapons unique to FFVII's Gaia becoming integral parts of XV's story and make the conclusion that maybe the worlds are the same.

Other than giving a nod to older games (including VII), I doubt it. Wouldn't be a smart play, since they have the episodic VII coming out in due time. Don't see the point of having even more VII tie-ins (through a main installment) just prior to its release. XV most definitely needs to be its own story; going the route of IX, though, by paying homage to the older games? I'd be down for that.

In short, let's not look into it that much. X/X-2 are connected to VII. Let that be it. Haha.

It wouldn't have to have detail storyline explaining or even answering how or why VII and XV are connected, though. You guys are overthinking. They didn't go into great detail about how X and VII are connected and yet they're still connected. Being the same world as VII wouldn't take away from XV's own story, either. I don't know how it could. I think it'd richen it.

 

[Linnaete]

The way that the FFVII and FFX universes are "connected" is so loosely done that it's more of an Easter egg or a fun homage than anything substantial, especially when it has never been expounded upon. It's true that a fan can do the work for them and make the argument that the Omega Weapon exists in the FFX universe and would later leave the dying husk of Spira behind with all of the Lifestream to find a new planet (Gaia) but the connection is simply what one makes of it. I personally just choose to ignore it and consider the mainline Final Fantasy games to be solidly in their own individual universes with their own principles and lore.

As for the premise of your thread topic, firstly, no one actually knows who the deities in the sky are meant to be. The logical guess would be the previous monarchs of Noctis's home nation in the form of Knights of the Round. I doubt they're Weapons, because Diamond Weapon in Kingsglaive is a Niflheim-controlled siege weapon and not an ominous deity in the sky.

Secondly, just because the Weapons outside of Ultima Weapon have previously only been exclusive to FFVII doesn't bear much significance to me. For one, and I apologise if this is deemed a spoiler, but Ultros is also in Kingsglaive (and has appeared in FFXIII-2 DLC as well as FFXIV as well, but I highly doubt their respective universes are linked). What this just looks like to me is a conscious attempt by Square to borrow elements from previous games that long-time fans of the franchise will be familiar with. As such, why not borrow from perhaps the most popular and famous game of their portfolio, which is FFVII?

If they're simply slapped on without rhyme or reason then perhaps it's a mark of laziness. But as you said, if they have their own place in the story, are integrated in and don't come across as blatant fanservice nods, it seems perfectly reasonable an inclusion to have while also being a worthwhile homage and not some link to a wider meta-theory about whether it means the worlds are connected.

Ultimately I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think the premise of your topic isn't too ridiculous and depending on how it turns out it could well be viably argued later on down the line like in the case for FFVII and FFX. But as of typing I'm still convinced that it's just a conscious decision to put them in the same way that FFXIV deliberately uses terms such as Materia and Limit Break, both of which were also formerly exclusive to FFVII's universe.

 

[The Witch]

Alright, I don't really disagree. But Can I ask why is XV the first game since VII to pay homage to those specific Weapons?

 

[Linnaete]

Any reason really.

The producer and the senior members of the team could be major fans of FFVII and feel it would be cool to have giant sentient enemies be named and modeled after the Weapons.

Or it's as we have speculated more of a fanservice thing. It's evident that they're going all-out with FFXV to make it for as wide an audience as possible, from mainstream gamers completely unfamiliar with the franchise to long-term fans of the series, so it seems a given that one turns to the most prominent game in the series for some references and borrowed aspects. It may help tackle concerns from some fans that FFXV doesn't look or feel like much like a Final Fantasy game.

In fact, FFXV has been making a number of somewhat obscure references to older FF games. The Garula enemy is an example as its name and design are taken from FFV, as is the base design for the giant dinosaur-like Catobeplas. The original Amano designs for Goblins and Nagas from the very original Final Fantasy game have come back for this newest game. The villain Aranea Highwind is a dragoon and that surname is a clear reference. I wager it's just that desire to mix the new and the classical.

Knights of the Round is also an example and may well be a possible presence in FFXV as well based on the cover art. Besides having its name referenced in FFXII it remained more or less exclusive to FFVII until FFXIV: Heavensward came along. It's not the same Knights of the Round by any means. The FFXIV incarnation has its own story and identity but the motif remains. Besides that, the similarities end. Why they have elected to use KOTR for it is anyone's guess, but I figure it's just because they wanted to make a slightly more obscure FF-related reference beyond that of the usual recurring names and themes.

 

[redgrave]

I'd love to read those.

I can see the part about the Knights of the Round being Notics' ancestors and his father the 13th knight being true.

The part where Luna might be Jenova? lol not so much.

It wouldn't have to have detail storyline explaining or even answering how or why VII and XV are connected, though. You guys are overthinking. They didn't go into great detail about how X and VII are connected and yet they're still connected. Being the same world as VII wouldn't take away from XV's own story, either. I don't know how it could. I think it'd richen it.

THISX10 esp the text in bold lmao


Not everything has to make sense for it to be true esp where SE is concerned. It's an awesome rumour n I'm not ruling out any of these possible FFVII/FFXV connections. Ppl can speculate n try to reason it out as much as they want, even write a bloody essay on the topic bt they aint on the FFXV development team lol n until then..

 

[Dionysos]

I’m of the opinion that the simplest and most likely explanation for FFXV’s ‘Weapon’ designs is that FFVII is often considered the most popular FF game which broke new ground for a new generation of FF fans. They want FFXV to achieve the same success for the PS4 era generation. They’ve said as much in interviews if I recall correctly. They’re drawing from a variety of FF games for inspiration, but they’re particularly focusing their efforts on FFVII for certain aspects and are hoping to mirror its success.

I think the design of the ‘Weapons’ is a symptom of that. Also I think it is worth considering that Weapons are usually difficult boss battles (sometimes optional) with no immediate or lasting relevance to the plot. Some of the early ‘Weapons’ (such as FFVI’s Atma Weapon) were palette swaps of the Behemoth. Others were centaur-like monstrosities which were difficult to consider as characters in their own rights.

FFVII’s Weapons were different as thought had gone into their individual designs, and they were great designs. They also had relevance to the plot and the mythology of the FFVII universe.

Might it be that FFXV wants its ‘Weapons’ to resemble the more inspired, character-imbued designs of the FFVII batch than the generic 6 or 8 limbed monsters of other games?

I agree that this’ll be more than an idle nod to FFVII, but I think it is just an extended and deliberate nod to FFVII, with a few exaggerated winks and shouts of “See! See! See!” accompanying the gesture.

(A bit like this:

)

-

I think it matters.

The reason it matters is because if FFVII and FFXV are ‘connected’ then it does possibly detract from the story of FFVII if it isn't executed convincingly. I felt the same when they made throwaway remarks about FFX and FFVII being connected. It doesn’t make sense that the worlds should be connected (especially if the character Shinra is the link). They’re two separate planets with completely different mythologies. It’s a retcon.

If they could find a way to make the world of FFXV logically connect with the FFVII world then that’ll be fine and I’m not against it. They’ll have to do a lot more than just reference the FFVII ‘Weapons’ to achieve that. And they’d need to explain why the Weapons are there.

As Livi said, it’s not the first time that an FF game has deliberately referenced a very particular character or set of characters from a particular game. They don’t only reference general FF themes in FF games.

Amongst (probably) hundreds of minor nods to other FF games in FFXIV, the magitek armour takes its design directly from Amano’s designs for the magitek armour in FFVI. This armour plays a role in the story of FFXIV (multiple cutscenes and talking points), and yet it has its own backstory firmly based in the world of Eorzea and has nothing at all to do with FFVI.

I think that something similar is happening here…


Also. This is the first time I’ve heard about Ultros making an appearance in Kingsglaive! Wow! I’m definitely going to watch that.

 

[ZaXo Ken'Ichi]

Linnaete effectively summed up my response. I could add more, but most of it would be of less importance. So the only things I will add are that, again, I have no problem with them being in XV, nor do I have a problem with them being a vital part of the story and whatnot. What I take issue with is the logical leaps required for any of it to make sense as a connection between XV and VII (and also with the idea that this being the first time these Weapons have been used outside of VII related stuff in a major way, is of any significance). The second Square admits that these games are connected, the answer will have to make sense. And as it stands now, there is no logical explanation for how they're connected, outside of making huge assumptions to avoid the contradiction minefield. Occam's Razor and all that jazz. I honestly think it's just Square trying to hype up people for XV, as well as maybe show that they are trying to respect VII with the remake. It's just fanservice, and I don't think that's lazy. It takes quite a bit of skill to insert fanservice like this that doesn't just feel painfully out of place. This seems to be a way to make nods to other games, while not completely breaking the fourth wall, like they would have to do if, say, Shinra made all of the cars in XV, but the company itself didn't exist anywhere. They're trying to integrate their fanservice, so that it's simultaneously a full part of XV. I really think it's that simple.