Top ten arguments for the existence of God

Zelpa

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I did not write this, I just wanted to post and share it.

The "Glue": Argument From Ignorance

a.k.a. God of the gaps, Godidit!

The Argument From Ignorance is basically a naked assertion: God did it. That's it. Epitomized by the popular American bumper sticker:

God did it. I believe it. That settles it!

Premise:

Take virtually any aspect of our natural world that we don't fully understand (or that both the theist and his audience are not well-informed on), and you'll find a someone claiming God is at the end of that dimly-lit tunnel. Why is there cancer? What causes HIV? Why do people die? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why did that tsunami wreck Indonesia? How did the Red Sox win the World Series? It's God's will. What is the meaning of life? To serve God. Why should we act morally? Because God says so. How did life originate on Earth? Godidit! The Argument from Ignorance is the doorway that lets God into any and all claims.

Critique:

This isn't so much an argument as it is an unsubstantiated opinion. This claim is made in virtually all other arguments for the existence of god. The theist proposes a scenario that cannot be adequately explained by science or our current level of knowledge, and "fills in the gap" with God. Whenever we don't understand something, we use God as the universal excuse to explain anything unknown.

Obviously, in earlier days, with less universal knowledge, God was more prevalent. As our knowledge expands, these "gaps" become smaller. The battle over evolution is a desperate attempt to widen this ever-tightening gap that theists have claimed is evidence for the existence of God.

The irony is that many claims theists make which create these gaps are ones that could be answered with science and reason. The "morality argument" is a good example. People have been told that without God there are no moral standards and therefore God is the true source of morality. These moral constructs can easily be explained without invoking the supernatural, but because of peoples' ignorance and conditioning, it's easier for them to conclude: it's because of God.

The argument from Ignorance is the "glue" for all other claims, because as you will see, there is no indisputable, tangible evidence of the existence of any God. So the other claims create a scenario where there is something "unknown" or "unexplained" into which the notion of "God" is arbitrarily inserted. If the reader can't offer an immediate legitimate explanation, the Argument from Ignorance suggests by default, God is the answer.

Now, onto our Top 10:
10. Shifting the Burden of Proof

a.k.a. You can't prove God doesn't exist, False criteria fallacy, fallacy of questionable criteria

Premise:

I know God exists. If you disagree, prove otherwise. Oh you say you can't prove God doesn't exist? That's because you know he does!

Critique:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is the way the real world and science work. When you say God exists, you are making an extraordinary claim; therefore, the burden of proof is on you to back up your claim. A position that God doesn't exist is not a "belief," it's the standard position we all start out with until we're indoctrinated into religious schools of thought. People aren't born believing in Jesus. They start out atheist: lacking belief. There is no counter-claim necessary. Nobody has to prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist either.

Furthermore, it's technically impossible to prove a negative of this nature. I can no easier prove God doesn't exist than you can disprove my claim that I have an invisible, ethereal unicorn in the trunk of my car. I say I do. It's not my fault he disappears when you look there. Prove he isn't there. You can't.

A famous counter-spin on this argument is the Russell's teapot claim. How do you know there isn't a magical teapot hovering around earth that is responsible for creation? Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

9. Argument from Popularity

a.k.a. If God didn't exist why would most of the world believe?

Premise:

The vast majority of the world believes in God. This supports the universal truth that God is real, otherwise it makes no sense that so many people would believe.

Critique:

Just because a majority of people believe something does not make it true. There was a time when everyone believed the earth was flat, or that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it. As our understanding of science and the universe expands, it illuminates the irrationality of many early beliefs. We no longer believe that lightning is caused by the god Zeus waving his scepter. We understand that there are reasons for earthquakes and weather events that have nothing to do with anything supernatural, even though in past times, people were convinced God was at the control panel actively making these things occur, and the weather could be controlled by making sacrificial offerings of humans or other creatures. All sorts of things were commonly accepted as reasonable and acceptable, such as slavery, that we now recognize were unreasonable and unacceptable. If history has taught us anything, it's that just because a large group of people believe something is moral or truthful, does not make it so.

8. The Ontological Argument

a.k.a. The Transcendental Argument; If you can't touch "love" how can it be real?, semantic psychobabble, new age

The Ontological Argument is a bastardization of logic and reason. Theists employ this technique to claim God exists by abandoning any evidence or references, in favor of using logic itself to prove the potential for God's existence. Theists start by examining the idea of God and use this as a basis to prove that merely by recognizing the potential for God to exist, we have therefore proven he does exist.

Premise:

The Archbishop of Canterbury in the 11th century coined the argument as such:
1. God is, by definition, a being greater than which nothing can be conceived (imagined).
2. Existence in reality is better than existence in one's imagination.
3. God must exist in reality; if God did not, then God would not be that than which nothing greater can be conceived (imagined).

Critique:

The Ontological Argument is faulty at its onset because it relies on various base assumptions that have not been proven. Items 1 and 2 in the premise are presuppositions which are arbitrary, unproven and therefore meaningless. The ontological argument is dependent upon the false assumption that for us to conceptualize something, it must have some basis in reality. Here's another example:

What is love? Can you see love? Can you touch love? If it is not tangible how can it exist? But you know love is real. You can see what love does in your life and society, so it does exist. God is the same way.

The Ontological Argument proves nothing. Just because you want to associate real-world impulses with this concept of "love" does not mean that love is something tangible that exists in the physical world. Love is an abstraction. The concept of love is subjective. As is the concept of God. It's merely a way of describing something, and not, in itself, something that exists. The Ontological Argument ignores this fact.

Another popular spin on this fallacy involves referencing the so-called laws of logic and suggesting that these "laws" have to be dictated by somebody or something, ergo God exists. In reality, there are no "laws of logic". Logic is a name given to describe the function of how your brain processes information. Your stomach's function involves digestion. Is there a "law of digestion?" No. Another intellectually bankrupt semantical run-around.

7. Argument from Coercion
a.k.a. Believe and live forever in heaven, or don't and suffer eternal damnation, Fearmongering, There are advantages to belonging to a church...

Premise:

You must believe in God/Jesus. It's your only hope for salvation. We are all doomed if we don't accept Jesus as our personal savior. It says so in the Bible. If you want to live forever and avoid suffering, you must accept God.

Critique:

Christianity and most organized religions exist mainly due to the Argument from Coercion. The crusades were basically one big argument from coercion: convert or be killed. Needless to say, that's a very effective argument. In modern society, the need to get along with others in the community (which often involves participating in religious rituals or identifying yourself as subscribing to the dominant theology in the area) is also a form of coercion.

Religion has always sought to wound people, and then offer the cure for their ills. The argument from coercion is just that. Did you know you were cursed to eternal hellfire? Yep. But hey, while I have your attention, if you follow my instructions, we can fix this. Oh, also, it would be nice if you did everything this nice pastor says and give 10% of your income to the church. Thanks!

Fear has always been a big-time motivational force, but it usually doesn't turn out helpful in the end. There's an easier way to avoid hell and eternal suffering: not believing in it. Then you don't have to give a tithe to the church, subvert your personal responsibility, cultivate an innate sense of insecurity, guilt, and self-loathing, and support institutions that have oppressed, abused, and murdered people in the name of God since their inception.

6. First Cause Argument

a.k.a. something can't come from nothing, Every effect has a cause, First law of thermodynamics proves God exists

Premise:

Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God.

Critique:

Like many arguments of this nature, theists make a special pleading to exempt God from their argument. If everything that exists must have a cause, who created God? Variations of this argument employ the first law of thermodynamics to imply that God has always existed because the first law of thermodynamics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Nice notion, but it still doesn't prove there's a God. It merely suggests there's more for us to understand, and every day scientists get closer to addressing these issues without referencing God or anything supernatural.

If there's a recurring theme in any of these arguments, it's that theists pick and choose which tenets of science they want to embrace (the ones that help prove their claims) and ignore all the rest as if they don't exist. These theories are part of a complex interconnected system. It's intellectually dishonest and unethical to ignore evidence that counters your supernatural claims. The First Cause Argument ignores huge amounts of contradictory evidence, as do many of the arguments herein.

More importantly, as we are only half-way into the most common arguments for God, I'm sure you've heard most of these before. And the next five will likely not be a surprise either. The real surprise is that these arguments have been bandied about for hundreds of years. And the refutations of these claims have also been present. This is a testament (no pun intended) to how many religious leaders willfully ignore the flaws and downright misrepresentations in their claims. These critiques are nothing new. A hundred years ago, famous people like Robert G. Ingersoll gave public speeches outlining the same issues. Don't think your neighborhood pastor or priest isn't aware of the faulty logic he is foisting on his flock. It may be their livelihood and they have an interest in saying these stories, but ask yourself if you have as much of a personal advantage in believing the stories told by people who know they aren't true?
5. Argument from Authority
a.k.a. The Bible proves God exists, Begging the question, Circular reasoning

Premise:

God is real because the Bible (or whatever sacred text you believe in) says so. Why would so many people write so much about God if it wasn't true? What about all the miracles that were "documented" by historical writers? There is too much evidence here to dismiss.

Critique:

This argument depends upon a presupposition, that the "authority" being referenced is accurate or legitimate. That remains to be seen. Any critical examination of sacred texts such as the Bible clearly show it to be riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions. Using the Bible as any authoritative reference is dubious at best. Since most of these scriptures are the de-facto, almost exclusive evidence of God's existence, using them as a reference amounts to a circular argument. Christians point to the numerous "eye-witness accounts" of Jesus' resurrection in the Gospels as "evidence" that this really happened. But the gospels themselves are riddled with contradictions, and were written decades after the events supposedly took place. It's not unreasonable to consider many of these sources unreliable. You could likewise argue that the overwhelming amount of literature making reference to vampires proves they are real characters that truly do or did exist. Or maybe not. Maybe Jesus, like Count Dracula, Zeus or Santa Claus, was simply a popular mythological figure about which people made up stories?

It's worth noting that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is another manufactured myth which relies on the Argument from Authority, by claiming certain substantiating references are indeed authoritative, when in reality, they are just arbitrary claims. In time, no doubt, as more people embrace the amusing notion of FSM, we'll begin seeing them use the Argument from Popularity as well.


4. Argument from Personal Experience
I feel the presence of God - I know he's real

Premise:

I know god exists because I can feel him. I know it in my heart; he talks to me; I feel his strength and existence flow through every fiber of my being.

Critique:

The problem with the Argument from Personal Experience is that it's personal. Whatever you feel is not something that anyone else can feel. Therefore it is meaningless and inconclusive. I can find somebody who thinks he saw Elvis in Starbucks last week. That doesn't mean Elvis is alive. It means he was deluded. Any claim that cannot be tested or subjected to some sort of independent verification is not a meaningful, legitimate claim. I have no doubt you feel the presence of god, but this can also be explained rationally from a psychological perspective via various concepts such as the power of suggestion, lucid dreaming, hallucinations, mental disorders, etc. Personal "feelings" are not evidential.


3. Argument from Improbability

a.k.a. What are the odds of human beings existing?, Existence defies entropy, Humans are too perfect to have been accidentally created

Premise:

The second law of thermodynamics says matter inevitably becomes entropic (spreads out in chaos) and this defies the observation on Earth where we see, things becoming more organized. Therefore God is responsible.

What is the likelihood that humans would have turned out the way they have? It's improbable that humanity (or any other impressive life form) arbitrarily came into existence.

Imagine a wind whipping through a warehouse of airplane parts and blowing the pieces around until they form a perfect, functional 747 jet? That's what we are talking about in terms of the likelihood man "just happened" on Earth. A similar story involves monkeys being given typewriters and eventually writing all the works of Shakespeare.

A particularly hilarious version of this argument is Peanut Butter: Disproves Evolution?

Critique:

This argument works because those making these claims deliberately leave out a critical aspect of the story: No scientist ever said everything happens randomly or arbitrarily. How things evolve, change or become something new and different can be explained using processes such as Natural selection.

This argument ignores glaring facts in the equation. The second law of thermodynamics applies to a closed system, but the Earth is not a closed system. The entire universe is expanding and entropic. Theists ignore this fact. When employing the Argument from Improbability to the concept of evolution, theists also deliberately ignore the process of natural selection, which clearly demonstrates that the evolutionary process is anything but random and arbitrary. In any case, even if the Argument from Improbability were true, it wouldn't prove the existence of God. Theists also employ the Argument from Ignorance to arbitrarily suggest Godidit! whenever something appears they can't explain. The bottom line is that just because something seems impossibly unlikely to naturally occur, that does not mean it is impossible. In most cases, many of these "improbable" happenings do indeed have clear scientific explanations that theists conveniently ignore.

Another variation on the Argument from Improbability centers around talking about how "perfect" the Earth, our bodies, the universe, etc. is:

Yes, if the Earth is so "perfect" how come the majority of it is covered with water and uninhabitable by humans? How come we weren't born with gills? If the universe is so perfect, why are there so many planets that are totally inhospitable to humans? Why doesn't the moon have an atmosphere? The "perfection" spin doesn't work.

2. Pascal's Wager

a.k.a. Better to believe and be right than not believe and be wrong, It doesn't hurt to believe in god and it's a safer bet.

Premise:

French philosopher Blaise Pascal reasoned that it was a "safe bet" to believe in God just in case he was real. What's the harm? If you believe and he doesn't exist, you don't lose anything, but if you don't believe and he does exist, you lose big time.

Critique:

Most theists have reasoned that Pascal's Wager makes sense. The problem is, it is a fool's bet. If God is really omnipotent, then surely he knows that your beliefs are not sincere, that you're just playing the odds. Beyond that, Pascal's Wager does not address the more substantive question of which God you should believe in. Do you believe in Christ, or Xenu, Mithra, Saturn, Buddha, or Allah? What if God's real test was to see who would defy convention and refuse to believe and those were the ones who get to heaven? The permutations in this equation are endless, which proves that Pascal's Wager is a total waste of time. Like all the other arguments, theists will disagree, but only because they've manufactured their own set of rules that convinces them that their reasoning makes more sense. It doesn't though.

1. Argument from Design

a.k.a. Teleological argument, Every creation must have a creator., Intelligent Design

This argument has been floating around ever since religion was invented, but the Argument from Design was perhaps perfected by C.S. Lewis in his book, "Mere Christianity". Lewis' great writing style made this fallacious argument seem almost legitimate.

Premise:

The most common analogy used to illustrated the Argument from design is the "watchmaker argument". If you found a watch on the ground, you never met the watchmaker, but you know from its design, the beauty of it; the way each piece was intricately designed to work together, that this watch had a creator.

Theists point to the human body; the precise way each of our organs work with each other and claim it's the most amazing "creation" of all, and surely there was some sort of creator behind it.

Critique:

This most famous argument for God is also the easiest to completely deflate. If anything sufficiently complicated must have a creator, then who created God? It's as simple as that. However, when you point out this flaw in theist logic, they commit another logical fallacy: special pleading to claim that God is the exception to the rule and doesn't need to have a creator.

Furthermore, every example to date a theist can make to suggest that humans are too complex to have "happened by accident" (another false claim) has been debunked by scientists. The famous Dover trial put the argument from design on trial and the theists failed miserably to prove their case.
 
Just a question, but do atheists actually have lives? Or friends? I've seen so many of these, I'm ready to throw up. You know what's really fun? Trying to convince religious people that their beliefs are completely wrong. Oh wait, no, that's just really obnoxious. Seriously, are these people just pissed off because their auntie Bessie forced them to go to church when they were a kid, and they've had a chip on their shoulder ever since? Get the hell over it, and get a life that doesn't involve standing on a soap box, trying to enlighten the religious about why their belief in God isn't logical. It's just as bad as religious people trying to push their religion on people.
 
Some of them made me lol.


You know what's really fun? Trying to convince religious people that their beliefs are completely wrong. Oh wait, no, that's just really obnoxious.
If a Jehova's Witness disturbes me whilst eating, social calls, Baths or on the missis they get the standerd 'Your wrong' rant the next time they call. and somehow it is pretty fun.
 
Just a question, but do atheists actually have lives? Or friends? I've seen so many of these, I'm ready to throw up. You know what's really fun? Trying to convince religious people that their beliefs are completely wrong. Oh wait, no, that's just really obnoxious. Seriously, are these people just pissed off because their auntie Bessie forced them to go to church when they were a kid, and they've had a chip on their shoulder ever since? Get the hell over it, and get a life that doesn't involve standing on a soap box, trying to enlighten the religious about why their belief in God isn't logical. It's just as bad as religious people trying to push their religion on people.
Well speaking from an Atheist-Agnostic standpoint, I do in fact have friends and a life and the situation rarely ever occurs in which I tell a religious person their beliefs are wrong. My whole family, except my dad is religious so I don't even bother, I let people believe in what they want, but when someone asks me my opinion, I share it with them, no problem at all. It's not really a big deal to me trying to go around making everyone an atheist because life is to short for that. :cool:
 
It's also entirely possible that this was posted as a means of explaining why atheists do not believe in God; one need not assume this was posted for the sake of converting others or making them think their beliefs are silly. No where in that post does it say God isn't real, or we have proven that God isn't real, therefore, you should stop believing in him; it just says those are reasons why you can't prove God exists, or why it has no bearing on our lives. There are atheists that are the way they are because of past experiences with religion, and some that haven't had those, but it is also unnecessary to assume that just because athests might agree with the reasoning in that post that doesn't mean they want others to be atheists too, or that they don't have a life; to be fair, there are plenty of other Christians and religious people who try to convert others to their own religion--you see Jehovah's witnesses on your doorstep all the time, and someone is almost always posting about why more people aren't Christian, or challenging atheists--and I would think that's one of the best reasons why posts like these exist--because someone asked why they believed what they believed, and not necesarily because they wanted people to stop believing in religion. Now maybe there are atheists that match your description, but you can't assume that this post exists because atheists wanted religious people to convert. I admit I do not know why the original topic poster chose to post what he did, but it is also unnecessary to assume he posted it for the sake of converting others.

And for the record, being an atheist agnostic myself, I am not so lifeless that I need to post religion topics about how great atheism is, or that other people need to convert--I do have a life, perhaps not quite the same one as others do, but it's not focused on making religious people miserable--it's focused on math. :math:
 
Nearly every kid in my school (excluding the kids from grade 1-3) do NOT believe in God. We learned enough of science's proof of how the world was actually created to prove that God does not exist.
When we were all younger, we wanted to know why God can't cure everything. Why can't God cure sick children of His?
Why can't he save the world?
Those questions, especially the last one, is what I wish terribly to ask God. Many people who are well educated know the answer to all of those : Because God does not exist.
Beliefs were created to create faith. Such established rules from the Ten Commandments, such as "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Why is that? Adultery produces children, unless you adultery in that time meant "rape".
And another commandment, "Keep the Sabbath holy," does not affect probably any normal Christians at ALL except for strict ones. Common and certain shops, such as McDonald's and Subway work on the Sabbath. Quite that commandment shouldn't exist if you're working everyday in Goodwill or any other shop.
This debate is quite encouraging to discuss and argue on certain subjects on God, so I will continue forth on other posts soon later.
 
Just a question, but do atheists actually have lives? Or friends? I've seen so many of these, I'm ready to throw up. You know what's really fun? Trying to convince religious people that their beliefs are completely wrong. Oh wait, no, that's just really obnoxious. Seriously, are these people just pissed off because their auntie Bessie forced them to go to church when they were a kid, and they've had a chip on their shoulder ever since? Get the hell over it, and get a life that doesn't involve standing on a soap box, trying to enlighten the religious about why their belief in God isn't logical. It's just as bad as religious people trying to push their religion on people.

Accept the fact that your faith will be judged the same way your God will judge those who inevitably die. There's really no need to get sour about it, just accept it and move on.
 
I seriously dunno where this idea came from that Athiests are the ones that go around trying to convert people to Athiesm. We're not the ones going door to door trying to convert people. Seriously, Athiests are Athiests because quite frankly, we don't give a shit.

Why would we bother with something we don't give a shit about?
 
I seriously dunno where this idea came from that Athiests are the ones that go around trying to convert people to Athiesm. We're not the ones going door to door trying to convert people. Seriously, Athiests are Athiests because quite frankly, we don't give a shit.

Why would we bother with something we don't give a shit about?
Orly?
How many times do people come to your door and try to proselytize you? Once a year? And yet this smug conceited atheist bullshit can be found everywhere. Fuck even news channels have a bias, but do you accuse them, no? Thses pseudo intellectual atheists listen and repeat what they heard one atheist, and they never stop to question atheism. Because they believe that they are omniscient. Though there disgusting hypocracy doesn't stop there.

Nearly every kid in my school (excluding the kids from grade 1-3) do NOT believe in God. We learned enough of science's proof of how the world was actually created to prove that God does not exist.
When we were all younger, we wanted to know why God can't cure everything. Why can't God cure sick children of His?
Why can't he save the world?
Those questions, especially the last one, is what I wish terribly to ask God. Many people who are well educated know the answer to all of those : Because God does not exist.
Beliefs were created to create faith. Such established rules from the Ten Commandments, such as "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Why is that? Adultery produces children, unless you adultery in that time meant "rape".
And another commandment, "Keep the Sabbath holy," does not affect probably any normal Christians at ALL except for strict ones. Common and certain shops, such as McDonald's and Subway work on the Sabbath. Quite that commandment shouldn't exist if you're working everyday in Goodwill or any other shop.
This debate is quite encouraging to discuss and argue on certain subjects on God, so I will continue forth on other posts soon later.
You say god doesn't exist yet you ask him questions. Either you are a paranoid schizophrenic, or you just rendered your arguement useless.

Accept the fact that your faith will be judged the same way your God will judge those who inevitably die. There's really no need to get sour about it, just accept it and move on.
How can you? When these sadists take pleasure in trying to discredit what people believe in. What some people's lives revolve around, and you defend these people? It's not as if they are doing anything productive.
It's really just evil.

And Eryth like always is totally right, these 'people' who dedicate their lives to attempt to prove that what other people believe is wrong have no lives.
 
Hey guys, just a quick reminder not to get so worked up. Things seem to be getting just a tad heated in here. Let's try and cool down. We really don't want arguments and flame wars to start, okay?
 
Orly?
How many times do people come to your door and try to proselytize you? Once a year? And yet this smug conceited atheist bullshit can be found everywhere. Fuck even news channels have a bias, but do you accuse them, no? Thses pseudo intellectual atheists listen and repeat what they heard one atheist, and they never stop to question atheism. Because they believe that they are omniscient. Though there disgusting hypocracy doesn't stop there.

At least if you don't want to watch a TV channel with atheists on it, you're free to flick the TV off, play some video games or change the channel. Or if you don't want to hear about why they don't believe in God, you're free not to read whatever they have to say--nobody's forcing you to read it. But it's still pot calling the kettle black to say atheism is everywhere; religion is everywhere just as much as atheism is--there are probably even more Christian channels on TV than their are atheist specific ones. There may also be books by Richard Dawkins, other scientists and atheists, or the folks that call themselves freethinkers, but there are just as many by Henry Morris, Behe and other creationists/Christians. And you don't really have a reason to complain either--last I heard, the bible is still one of the most popular books being read by others. The fact is, I haven't heard of any atheist or atheist group that goes around knocking on random strangers' doors telling them about how they must not believe in God. Also, it is not a fact that any atheist who wishes to express why he or she does not believe in God claims omniscience. Omniscience is not a necessary condition for reason.

How can you? When these sadists take pleasure in trying to discredit what people believe in. What some people's lives revolve around, and you defend these people? It's not as if they are doing anything productive.
It's really just evil.
I defend their right to free speech. I defend their reasoning for not believing in God. I do not defend that they are trying to change what people believe in, but I also do not believe that to be necessarily the case; I do not believe it was implied. And this all boils down to a pot calling the kettle black argument anyways; if you will accuse atheists of trying to convert people, then you must also accuse the religious folks of doing the same.

And Eryth like always is totally right, these 'people' who dedicate their lives to attempt to prove that what other people believe is wrong have no lives.
Funny that you phrase it that way, but the burden of the proof is on those who suggest that there is a god before the evidence, so atheists have no need to prove that god doesn't exist; you don't prove a negative. The only thing I see happening here is criticism of the character of the Christian God, (which is quite possibly due to interpretation; if you don't like it because your interpretation isn't the same, then accept the fact that people are entitled to varying opinions and differences of opinions and move on) and reasons for why they choose not to believe in God.
 
Placebo said:
Orly?
How many times do people come to your door and try to proselytize you? Once a year? And yet this smug conceited atheist bullshit can be found everywhere. Fuck even news channels have a bias, but do you accuse them, no? Thses pseudo intellectual atheists listen and repeat what they heard one atheist, and they never stop to question atheism. Because they believe that they are omniscient. Though there disgusting hypocracy doesn't stop there.

You have either completely insulted my intelligence or have hoped that I am living in some sorta cave miles away from civilisation.

Sorry dude, but we are not going door to door delivering messages of our belief, there is barely any Athiest shows on TV that I know about (And if there is, then I don't really care, I got better things to do then to sit down and watch some dude slag of something I don't care about)

If there really are Athiests out there that are proving your right, then I will admit them one's are lifeless. What you gotta bare in mind is, the majority become Athiests because they do not care, what's so hard about getting that in your head? How would you like it if I called them religious people going around convincing people to join them lifeless?

Religion has the most TV shows, they even have their own channels, they have preachers shouting through a mike in the middle of the street, they go door to door (And FYI, i get one at least once every 2 months), they have posters, leaflets, newspaper, radio, just about every form of advertisement possible, and I haven't seen any form of advertisement supporting Atheism.

And watch your comments for crying out loud, hypocrocy is in every religion, culture and race, I ain't gonna go round calling every religious person hypoecrites because quite frankly, I know I'd be fibbing.

I don't ever see religions stopping to question themselves anyway. So don't accuse Athiest of something you 'think' they do, because technically, that would make you a hypoecrite to.
 
Speaking personally, I'm perfectly happy to debate the existance of god, or the eixstance of god in the form of anyones specifics religion, if i see the topic has already been brought up. From what i've seen, most atheists/agnostics have a similar standpoint on the matter. Yes every now and then you will get one who tries to initiate the discussion, but as has been pointed out (jehovas witness' etc) Every group, regardless of belief has those people who feel the need to convert others so strongly.

I think the difference that must be taken into account here, is that atheists/agnostics don't tell people that "Oh if you don't believe what i do, you will be tortured for all of eternity because of it. So you need to believe what i do, or else" Which is kinda the point of a lot of religions.

Anyone who demands respect for their religious beliefs, must also, by their own standards, respect people who believe the sun is drawn across the sky by a chariot, and respect people who say that god is a tree. Those religions were around for as long, or longer, than whatever religion you might follow. If you want people to respect your beliefs, then i expect to see you respect people who believe that their great grandfather has been reincarnated as their cat. :)

Point is, if you're going to rail at people for something, make sure *you are not also doing it*

For the record, i constantly question my beliefs, and i encourage my friends, religious or not, to do the same thing. If a belief doesn't hold up to close scrutiny, it's not worth believing in.

Humans have never been right about anything, what makes anyone thing we'd be right about the existence/form of a higher power. People who are willing to admit they are wrong will inevitably become greater than those who aren't. Unfortunately the religious tend to fall in the latter category, and that is also why they attract so much scorn.


It's kinda like that kid in school who maintained his uncle crossed his eyes, the wind changed, and they got stuck that way. You *KNOW* thats impossible, but no matter what anyone tells the kid he just sticks his fingers in his ears and sings really loudly.

Atheists tend to find it frustrating. Agnostics doubly so, since religious people are basically saying "Yeah i know everything about this, and you're an idiot. What do you mean you don't know what god is. I do, some guy told me so!!!!" Then they go on to accuse atheists etc of reciting what they have heard other atheists say.

Anyway, a lot of ground covered there. I hope my aimless rambling made sense to those who bothered to struggle through it ^.^
 
I seriously dunno where this idea came from that Athiests are the ones that go around trying to convert people to Athiesm. We're not the ones going door to door trying to convert people.


Well atheists may not go door to door but they certainly do try to convert people. Why do you think there is all that shit on the net trying to disprove the existence of god? What's more is that if a religious person argues that they do believe in god they are labeled as stupid!

I think the difference that must be taken into account here, is that atheists/agnostics don't tell people that "Oh if you don't believe what i do, you will be tortured for all of eternity because of it. So you need to believe what i do, or else" Which is kinda the point of a lot of religions.


Yes its true that some religious fanatics try to force their beliefs by saying stuff like "you will burn in hell if you don't belief what I do", but some atheists drop similar (yet less dramatic) lines such as "If you believe in God you are a fucking moron!"

The point I'm trying to make here is that there will always be assholes who try to force their beliefs on you whether you visit Atheists land or Religious-ville. But we should all keep in mind that these assholes do not represent Atheism/Religion as a whole.

Personally I am Agnostic, but while I do not believe in any particular religion, I do enjoy discussing the existence of God with my friends and family because I find it interesting to know why they believe what they do, also (like Decado) I often question my beliefs. However since 'the existence of God' is a particularly sensitive topic to some, it is often best to just agree to disagree.


 
Well atheists may not go door to door but they certainly do try to convert people. Why do you think there is all that shit on the net trying to disprove the existence of god? What's more is that if a religious person argues that they do believe in god they are labeled as stupid!

Well, I can honestly say that ever since I got the internet over 2 years ago, the text that the dude who started this copied and paste is the only thing I've seen that is trying to disprove god's existence.

If you think it's 'all over the web' I think you've either:
1) Intentionally searched it
2) Found 1 or 2 and chose to be a wee bit dramatic about it and chose to say it's over the net
3) You've just experienced some very high odds.

I am not ever going to intentionally search things like "Proof god doesn't exists" because once again, I don't care.

Sorry mate, but until I actually see all this stuff around the internet without intentionally looking for it, I won't belief anyone that says "It's all over the net."
 
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The only way you'll find stuff on the net like this is if you search for it, you're absolutely right. It is all over the net but only when you look. The biggest place it's at is on Youtube, and it's very easy to find there all you have to do is go to the religious category and there is tons of videos and atheists who make videos, one in particular you might want to look up is a guy called TheAmazingAtheist.
 
Whether or not that's been all over the Internet is irrelevant anyways, since it just explains why they think the Christian god is an asshole, and why he doesn't exist--it doesn't say that you have to stop believing that God exists, unless that's what you want it to say--unlike certain creation websites that are a bit more proactive in their wording and you see things like people praying for you so that you'll be Christian, or saying that if you don't believe, you'll go to hell, or try to make you sorry for not believing in Jesus and say stuff like he died for you, blah, blah, blah, and that you should care--there might be a few atheist websites or online sentiments that do express a bit more and conclude that you're stupid if you believe in god, but many of the sites I've seen that disprove creation "theory" and ID don't make those conclusions, and I doubt that's what the posted excerpt in this thread says either.
 
I'm sorry but this has got way to heated for my liking.

I find it weak to find someone going berserk trying to prove themselves right and the other person wrong. No one knows better, we all have our own peronal knowledge. Likewise, we all have our own personal opinion. I'd love to debate this being a christian myself. I have quite a few arguments i can share for both sides, but at the end of the day, what is the point in all of this, you cant change force someone to change their whole religion and life cause you say so.

Our beliefs and hopes are our own. If you're christian, hey thats great. If you're aethiest, hey that great too, just dont rant at other people saying how you are almighty and correct all the time and taking unnecessary anger out on others, coz the fact of the matter is. We're only human. We are not perfection...It may be a topic of huge interest, but it doesn't give you carte blanche to go mental at someone
 
Well, it's a bit narrow minded to only keep the stuff to yourself and not share it with others--I'm not saying you have to force other people to believe what you say, but there are some people, where if you share with them why you choose to believe the way you do, they might actually agree with you, and consider that what you believe in might be better. But that would only be because they chose to agree with you, and not because you forced them to. So sharing what you believe in isn't wrong; it's how you come about doing it. Similarly, I'm perfectly fine sharing why I choose not to believe with others, not because I'm forcing them not to believe or think the same way I do, but because it helps them understand why I choose not to believe, and it might also make them reconsider what they believe in--but only if they choose to. If they don't want to, I'm not going to force them to. If they have something to say, it's the only way I'll know what they think about it. I will argue my point for the sake of defending what I choose to believe (or lack thereof), but if you read what I say carefully, I do not argue for the sake of changing what they believe; only that I'm perfectly justified in what I choose to believe (or not believe), and that they are entitled to disagree--so long as they let me be.
 
It's a probably a bad idea to post here, but I will anyway.

I'm not going to address particular quotes from particular people, I'm just going to share my own point of view for now. I am an atheist. I don't believe atheists as a whole or as a majority try to "push" there lack of religion on other people. In fact, the times when I have seen an atheist try to convert a religious person, or act like a religious person is foolish for his beliefs it has been a child who doesn't really know why he's atheist. I don't care what people believe, but I think everyone should be able to tell exactly why they believe that something. Atheism for me is a recent thing, I spent most of life deciding what my views on religion were. Quite frankly, I believe someone who has a solid stance on his or her religion and hasn't studied at least the major religions is ignorant. It's a harsh point of view, but as a very logical person it's one I can't help but have. I deal with the question of religion the same as I would any question. If it were any other question, would you make your decision with the knowledge there were facts you didn't know yet, but could easily learn? Which is why I think the notion that people shouldn't dissect religion and question people's beliefs is ridiculous. I want people to question what I believe, and I want them to argue why they think they're right. I can not possibly think of all the arguments on a subject that the entire world can. There might just be someone who comes up with an argument I don't have a reply for, which means it's time for some thinking and possibly a change of view. I don't think the people making an argument should be personally attacked, it's ridiculous the amount of hate that's gone on even in just this thread, with a complete lack of thought. Once an argument has been made who made it is completely irrelevant. All that's important is the argument, the new thought, the new information. People should always be wanting new information that could change their beliefs, because with as much that is unknown to you what are the chances your theory on any given thing is right? If someone is so close-minded that he or she can't stand the thought of their beliefs being questioned then it is that person who should make an effort to stay away from thought and argument. I don't believe thought is something that should be forced to stay hidden from people and that is exactly what real arguing is, the act of thought happening. for people to trade 'No, you're wrong and I'm right's back and forth doesn't accomplish anything, so why do it? It seems like people are so ready to say why they think they're right they never listen to why they might be wrong.
 
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