The Sephiroth Clones.

[Kitab]

Any more questions?

Yes. I have sketchy ideas of the answers to these questions anyway, but I'd like to see what you make of them too:

*Why exactly did Sephiroth kill Aerith? And why didn't he kill the rest of the party while he was at it?
*I remember a bit where Sephiroth was pushing the clones into the northern crater. I also remember him talking about the reunion; he even asked Cloud if he would be attending. What did Sephiroth stand to gain by the reunion? Why did he want it to happen, and why was he pushing away the clones?
*What exactly happened to Sephiroth after Cloud threw him into the reactor after the Nibelheim incident? He ended up in the Lifestream, but how?
*What did Cloud do immediately after his scuffle with Sephiroth on the reactor's catwalk? Surely he should have gone back to help Tifa and Zack, but instead he was taken for the experimentation. When did Zangan arrive, then? And why did Zangan only take Tifa, if Zack was nearby, also suffering serious injury?

Apparently, Sephiroth realizes this and gets his priorities straight in FF7: AC, because in there he says he's just going to finish what his mother started (for whatever goal that may be). Few people realize the change in his ambition/goal, they just want to see the sword-porn between him and Cloud.

At least one person noticed: look in the bit about Sephiroth in this feature. The question is: Why did his ambition change? What was he planning to do once he became one with the Planet?

Another question from that same article:

wasn't Sephiroth's plan to be at the center of the planet's Meteor-inflicted wound, because that's where the lifestream will be gathering? Meteor is hovering above Midgar. Sephiroth is stuck underground in a crystal at the north pole. Is this a tremendous oversight on Sephiroth's part or does he have some other power I'm not aware of because the game never bothered telling me?

I always assumed that by 'centre', he meant that he would be the one calling Meteor, because he's the one with the black materia.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

Yes. I have sketchy ideas of the answers to these questions anyway, but I'd like to see what you make of them too:

*Why exactly did Sephiroth kill Aerith? And why didn't he kill the rest of the party while he was at it?
*I remember a bit where Sephiroth was pushing the clones into the northern crater. I also remember him talking about the reunion; he even asked Cloud if he would be attending. What did Sephiroth stand to gain by the reunion? Why did he want it to happen, and why was he pushing away the clones?
*What exactly happened to Sephiroth after Cloud threw him into the reactor after the Nibelheim incident? He ended up in the Lifestream, but how?
*What did Cloud do immediately after his scuffle with Sephiroth on the reactor's catwalk? Surely he should have gone back to help Tifa and Zack, but instead he was taken for the experimentation. When did Zangan arrive, then? And why did Zangan only take Tifa, if Zack was nearby, also suffering serious injury?




At least one person noticed: look in the bit about Sephiroth in this feature. The question is: Why did his ambition change? What was he planning to do once he became one with the Planet?

Another question from that same article:


I always assumed that by 'centre', he meant that he would be the one calling Meteor, because he's the one with the black materia.

*Sephiroth killed Aerith because she was the only one who could summon Holy. He didn't kill Cloud and the others because I'm persuming he still wanted them about, for Cloud to be able to reach the Northern Crater and join the Reunion. Remember that Sephiroth has essentialy taken over the role of Jenova, so when all the cells 'reunite' it would make Sephiroth instead of Jenova. He pushed off the clones because of the cells in their body. Quicker reunion process?

*Sephiroth fell into the Mako pool. Now Mako is the Lifestream so that how he got there. His body diffused into the Lifestream and his strong will managed to keep his mind and soul diffusing aswell. Instead he became a 'traveler' of the Lifestream and gained the real knowlage of his exsistance and the Ancients. He then began 'reuniting' himself at the North Creater.
*Zangan got there immediatly after. He was only able to get Tifa out before Hojo and his team came onto the scene. Cloud, being badly injured, simply passed out after Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream.

All of this is actually explained in the game.

 

[Kitab]

*Sephiroth killed Aerith because she was the only one who could summon Holy.

But Holy was summoned anyway, wasn't it?

He didn't kill Cloud and the others because I'm persuming he still wanted them about, for Cloud to be able to reach the Northern Crater and join the Reunion. Remember that Sephiroth has essentialy taken over the role of Jenova, so when all the cells 'reunite' it would make Sephiroth instead of Jenova. He pushed off the clones because of the cells in their body. Quicker reunion process?

I see, yes.

*Sephiroth fell into the Mako pool. Now Mako is the Lifestream so that how he got there. His body diffused into the Lifestream and his strong will managed to keep his mind and soul diffusing aswell. Instead he became a 'traveler' of the Lifestream and gained the real knowlage of his exsistance and the Ancients. He then began 'reuniting' himself at the North Creater.

I knew about his being a traveller of the Lifestream; I just didn't realise that there was a mako pool at the base of the reactor or that this would be connected to the Lifestream. The semantics are confusing. I get it now.

*Zangan got there immediatly after. He was only able to get Tifa out before Hojo and his team came onto the scene. Cloud, being badly injured, simply passed out after Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream.

Yeah, silly question really. Sephiroth seemed to slice through Cloud's chest in the video in Crisis Core, but I won't bother asking how he survived.

All of this is actually explained in the game.

If you can call that 'explaining', then yes, it is. But the game is very bad at explaining anything about its story. If you want people to understand things, you generally have to repeat it several times throughout the course of the story, but they didn't do this; some things were only revealed in optional sections, like the bits and pieces in Nibelheim.

Thank you for your answers.

 

[Prince Oberyn Martel]

But Holy was summoned anyway, wasn't it?

Sephiroth killed Aerith whilst she was praying/summoning for Holy but her call managed to reach the planet before he did the deed. However his will managed to keep Holy from moving and from destroying Meteor when it appeared.

I agree alot of it is very vauge. But hey thats why me and Dragon Mage are here for, having beaten the games out of their pension years so you guys don't have too

 

[Dragon Mage]

Why exactly did Sephiroth kill Aerith? And why didn't he kill the rest of the party while he was at it?

There are possibly two reasons why he killed Aerith. One, obviously, is that he wanted to kill her before she could summon Holy and thwart his plan. Two, not so clearly, is because he wanted to demoralize the group to such an extent that they wouldn't try to interfere with his plan anymore. This didn't really work, as the chars continued to pursue him and what not. Also, he didn't kill the rest of the group because he needed Cloud as a tool, and killing everyone could have possibly tramatized him too much to be of any use to Sephiroth.

I remember a bit where Sephiroth was pushing the clones into the northern crater. I also remember him talking about the reunion; he even asked Cloud if he would be attending. What did Sephiroth stand to gain by the reunion? Why did he want it to happen, and why was he pushing away the clones?

Well, he was asking Cloud that largely to mess up our hero's mind even more. Sephiroth was manipulating uncertanties and shadows to effectively make Cloud his puppet. Of course, this is just speculation on the scant facts surrounding this issue, but that seems like the most plausible reason to me.

What did Sephiroth gain--I can understand the confusion surrounding this: Why need a reunion if he already controls Jenova's body? In this sense as posed by the question, he didn't have anything to gain from Jenova, but from the 'clones' instead. This drew Cloud right to where Sephiroth wanted him. It is a very subtle and clever trap, so much so that you don't even realize what it is and when it's being set up.

He was killing the other clones because he had nothing to gain from them. Sure, he may have used them as spies, but beyond that, they were of no more value to him at that point in the game. He may very well been killing them off because that's just him, or he could've been doing it because he considered them a taint to the holiness he held Jenova in, for they had Jenova cells in them but were broken in mind and body. This can be the only reason for this action, since he certainly had no fear of someone else using them the way he did, if at all.

What exactly happened to Sephiroth after Cloud threw him into the reactor after the Nibelheim incident? He ended up in the Lifestream, but how?

Sephiroth's physical body ceased to exist at that point. He did end up in the Lifestream, as you've said, but in mind/spirit/whatever only. The Lifestream is the place where all souls come from and eventually return to, right? Well, this is the same with Sephiroth--so when he effectively 'died', he returned to the Lifestream. However, through sheer force of will, he did not 'meld' into it and his 'life energy' (call it what you will) was not reused. Thus, he remained in the Lifestream, aware and somewhat alive, just not in the way we tend to think as living.

What did Cloud do immediately after his scuffle with Sephiroth on the reactor's catwalk? Surely he should have gone back to help Tifa and Zack, but instead he was taken for the experimentation. When did Zangan arrive, then? And why did Zangan only take Tifa, if Zack was nearby, also suffering serious injury?

Cloud passed out from his wounds. It's hard to see, but in the flashback, just after he tosses Sephiroth into the Lifestream, Cloud collapses.

Zangan must've arrived shortly thereafter, having missed the action but *just* before the Shinra arrived or just as they were arriving. Zangan mentions something about the Shinra roudning people up, and that he wouldn't let them have his best student (tifa). Zangan has no idea who Zack is--remember, Zack is from Gongaga and is likely passed out. Zangan could've presumed Zack dead; same with Cloud. With Shinra coming in and greatly outnumbered, Tifa's teacher wouldn't be able to help the others and so he retreated with his most skilled student--the only one he could save.

At least one person noticed: look in the bit about Sephiroth in this feature. The question is: Why did his ambition change? What was he planning to do once he became one with the Planet?

This remains highly speculative, but one can safely assume that Sephiroth's goal may have largely remained unchanged. The methods and ultimate ending of that goal may have been altered, however.

Let me clarify.

In the game, he wants to take revenge on the non-ancients for what they've done, etc. etc. In the movie, it sounds like he wants to create Eden on another world, and is using this world as a go-between/makeshift rocketship. Perhaps while he was in the Lifestream, he gathered more information there, maybe from Jenova's spirit residing there (unlikely) or simply somehow getting more information on Jenova's intent from the spirits of the true Ancients still dwelling in the Lifestream. Whichever it is, we'll never know for sure.

However, in order to wrench a planet from its orbit and send it spinning into space would require massive amounts power. Power that only a god could possibly have. So, Sephiroth's method may have not changed--he would likely continue to carry out his previous plan, achieve a god-like state, and then make an Eden on a newfound planet when it was found.

I always assumed that by 'centre', he meant that he would be the one calling Meteor, because he's the one with the black materia.

Ah, the author of that interesting page has made a big mistake. Sephiroth is anywhere and everywhere he wants to be. He's in the Lifestream, remember?

You know when you were going into the Temple and Aerith touched that pool (right where the boulders were) and you see this scene of what happened when the Turks got there? Remember how Sephiroth comes onto the scene but he looks at the group watching before seeming to appear in the 'flashback'? Well, that was the REAL Sephiroth, the one in the Lifestream. He also talked directly to the group in that scene, NOT a part of the flashback they were watching. They were watching something shown to them by the planet via the Lifestream/Mako, and so Sephiroth slipped in to mock them.

The Lifestream is spread out across the entire planet. Thus, Sephiroth can use it to 'travel' anywhere he wants to. The purpose of the Meteor wound wasn't that he physically had to be there to get the energy--the body you see is just a puppet composed of Jenova cells. It's actually meant to draw all that energy that is the Lifestream and is spread throughout the entire planet to one spot. Once all that energy--or at least most of it--is in one area, it can be used for whatever purpose. Think of it as pooling the power in one spot to make a giant battery or generator. The body of Sephiroth that you see cocooned in Mako is the REAL body of Sephiroth, albeit never living. Maybe he needed to be near his body in order to physically summon Meteor, we can't be sure, but that's how the creators chose to do it.

I do hope this answers your questions satisfactorily. If you have anymore, feel free to ask!!

 

[IamKazam]

Wow...i havent even read half of this and i feel like i never played this game....although a few bells are beggining to ring......but it has been a few years since i played this game and i was in like 6th grade, so ya.....my little mind couldnt comprehend this....well..looks like i have my reading cut out for me and ill definatly have to play this one through again.

 

[Dragon Mage]

xD Yeah, replaying the game as a refresher would be a good idea. Sorry it takes so long to explain everything, but there's nothing I can do to make it shorter!

 

[Kitab]

Oh, sorry I didn't come back earlier. Thank you very much for the explanations. It's probably as clear as it's going to get now.

Ah, the author of that interesting page has made a big mistake.

I thought you might say something like that! The thing is, if real, clear-headed people - even those as so evidently intelligent as the author of that page - can reasonably fail to get certain aspects of the plot, then I would take that as evidence that the writers and directors haven't done their job properly. Whether or not they put in all the relevant information somewhere in the game, they should at least convey the important points to the player at the appropriate times. It's OK (and arguably a good idea) to leave some mystery, but to leave certain technicalities in a state of vagueness is just not good practice. And I don't think it can be entirely blamed on bad translating.

That, I believe, is perhaps the only serious flaw with the game, and it does seem to happen with other games in the series too.

xD Yeah, replaying the game as a refresher would be a good idea. Sorry it takes so long to explain everything, but there's nothing I can do to make it shorter!

The longer, the better!

 

[Dragon Mage]

I thought you might say something like that! The thing is, if real, clear-headed people - even those as so evidently intelligent as the author of that page - can reasonably fail to get certain aspects of the plot, then I would take that as evidence that the writers and directors haven't done their job properly. Whether or not they put in all the relevant information somewhere in the game, they should at least convey the important points to the player at the appropriate times. It's OK (and arguably a good idea) to leave some mystery, but to leave certain technicalities in a state of vagueness is just not good practice. And I don't think it can be entirely blamed on bad translating.

That, I believe, is perhaps the only serious flaw with the game, and it does seem to happen with other games in the series too.

I completley agree with you. They shouldn't have to make an exhaustive guide explaining the nuances of the game that play a huge role in the how and why of the story. I consider this to be utterly due to being lax on the creators part, or else they simply didn't know how to do it, which means they are sorely lacking in imagination, which seems to be a damn important thing for their profession! It's truly a great game once you understand it, but I know MANY people that are turned away because they didn't have someone to explain it, didn't get it, or were disgusted that someone had to explain it to them (my brother is like this).

The longer, the better!

xD I'm glad you say that! I'm all too happy to answer any more questions!

 

[The Bikini Goddess]

Since Cloud has been able to retain control over himself [save for the times when Sephiroth is controlling him directly], then this must be why Hojo calls him a "failure" - he's not entirely drawn to Sephiroth, like the other clones.

No-- Cloud, relevant to Hojo's experiment, was not a failure. Not at all. As great as getting revenge and saving the world may sound, Cloud was just following the Reunion instinct like the other generic clones. The true "failure" of the experiment was Zack since he retained his own will and did not succumb. Hojo calls Cloud a "failure" because he escaped. He didn't know that it was Zack's immunity and lucidity that freed them both, thus assuming that both Cloud and Zack were "failed" test subjects.

 

[Kei]

Not really, Cloud is the same but he was planted with Jenova Cells and his memories got mixed up with Zack's, and When Tifa found him she didn't actually remember that Cloud was in Nibelhiem, so she thinks that she haven't seen him in 7 years, probably his look changed since they mention that he got taller and stronger.

 

[The Bikini Goddess]

Incorrect. Tifa did remember-- and she admits it later on. She was lying as an attempt to manipulate Cloud.

 

[monsoon]

so let me get this straight....cloud is NOT a clone or WAS NOT a clone until he and zack became test subjects for hojo right?? only question i have left is, how come he'd already shown superior strength beyond zack when he threw sephiroth down the reactor core during the nebelheim inccident. idk if cloud WAS stronger than zack at that point, but i do know that sephiroth was in shock himself. i mean, sephiroth was unbeatable. whether it was 2 on 1 (genosis and angeal) or 1 on 1 (zack) sephiroth never really tried his best yet still came out on top. then all of a sudden cloud had the strength to throw him down the reactor core..what does this mean?? where did cloud get the strength to throw him?? anyone????

 

[Dragon Mage]

Cloud was just following the Reunion instinct like the other generic clones.

Actually, it was Sephiroth manipulating Cloud. The other clones were acting on genetic instinct of the cells injected in them.

Incorrect. Tifa did remember-- and she admits it later on. She was lying as an attempt to manipulate Cloud.

Where you got this idea, I have no clue.

Tifa kept quiet because she feared if she said the truth, Cloud's reality would take a severe blow and she was right. Not to mention the pressing issue of the Shinra destroying a sizable amount of the city to destroy Avalanch. It was something that could have dire consequences if she said anything, and the results would not be able to react with the looming dangers at the time.

cloud is NOT a clone or WAS NOT a clone until he and zack became test subjects for hojo right??

Yes. Cloud was not a clone. (Keep in mind 'clone' is being misused here. Bad translation.)

how come he'd already shown superior strength beyond zack when he threw sephiroth down the reactor core during the nebelheim inccident.

This is really left up to whatever you think more feasible. I think it was a sudden rush of adrenaline, perhaps coupled with exposure to mako for strength that would even surprise Sephiroth. Perhaps it's just the creator's way of showing the power of a true hero, even if he doesn't seem like one at the time. Maybe it was just the sheer power of absolute hate.

It's what you think is more likely, really. No definable explanation.

But also consider that Sephiroth got this huge-ass blade in the gut a scant few seconds earlier. That would make him weaker, weak enough at least for Cloud to overpower him and toss him over the edge. However, like you said, that wouldn't account for Sephiroth being so surprised.

It's part of the story still in telling that just hasn't been told yet, I think. Perhaps we're never meant to be absolutely sure why Cloud did what he did.

Irritating, isn't it? Sorry I can't give you a more complete answer.

 

[The Bikini Goddess]

Actually, it was Sephiroth manipulating Cloud. The other clones were acting on genetic instinct of the cells injected in them.

Where you got this idea, I have no clue.

Cloud's drive to pursue Sephiroth was born from the Reunion instinct, so says the The Ultimania Omega Guide.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Which is not to say Cloud didn't have a real reason to pursue Sephy too, he also had the unconscious draw as well.

And Cloud and Zack both went through the Sephiroth Copy process, but Cloud is not a clone of anyone, he is the same individual as he was before Hojo used him as a guinea pig.

As for Cloud's sudden burst of strength, I think it's Cloud's natural toughness that leads him to be so powerful. He is similarly, but less excessively, inspired to kick ass during BC when he picks up a Buster equivalent Sword and is very, very, effective with it.

 

[Dimix1]

The clones confuse me.. i guess im gonna get through FF VII CC and im going to read it slowly and then play FF:VII with the guide so i can catch everything 100%..

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud's drive to pursue Sephiroth was born from the Reunion instinct, so says the The Ultimania Omega Guide.

I just noticed this. BG, Dragon Mage was referring to when you said

Incorrect. Tifa did remember-- and she admits it later on. She was lying as an attempt to manipulate Cloud.

Which is not based on anything in the game.
What Tifa remembered was that Cloud was not at Nibleheim during the time of the incident, as she never actually saw him there. However, with his casting of himself in the lead role, and knowing things that he could not have been aware of (as well as not knowing a few things he should have been aware of), Tifa was unsure whether or not who was correct. Add to that his psychological hiccups every so often, and you realize she had every reason not to press the issue. Look at what happened when Sephiroth did press the issue, after all. Tifa wasn't manipulating him. She was specifically trying to prod his psyche as gently, to avoid drastic reactions and prevent manipulations.

 

[Aztec Triogal]

Yes. Cloud was not a clone. (Keep in mind 'clone' is being misused here. Bad translation.)

Yes and no. Clone is a complete misnomer, as you said. All it refers to was that he was a part of the Jenova Reunion Theory project. He and Zack both were injected with Jenova cells and that's all that was really required. So yes, they are... but they didn't get tattooed numbers because they were more significant patients than the other poor inhabitants of Nibelheim.

Also, no clue if anyone even brought it up... but the monsters in the Nibelheim reactors are not Sephiroth clones. All SOLDIERS are injected with small amounts of mako to increase their performance. These abominations were SOLDIERs that were exposed to too much mako and mutated.

Riku, I can't say I've read every post in here but in short... Yes, Cloud did grow up in Nibelheim where he was a big dork who had a crush on Tifa. He went off to Midgar to be in SOLDIER but epic failed. And the reason Tifa didn't say anything to him at the train station was because Cloud was pretty much out of it... and Sephiroth says a bunch of contradictory shit throughout the game, mainly because he's discovering the truth in the same timeframe you are.