Pitfalls of Government

[Sum1sgruj]

Democracy- the best form of gov't in terms of fairness. It also does not exist in it's true form. We vote people into office, and they make most decisions for us. We can only influence those decisions in the most dire of situations, and by then, the damage has already been done.
What is it in man that strives for leadership? Where is true democracy? I guess the world has gotten so big that it can't decide for itself. This is why God exists in many minds,, a true leader that can decide for all with no hidden intent of riches and power.
Right and wrong is based on majority, yet everyone has their own take on it. Logically, gov't is just survival of the human race. Because if there was anarchy, the world would be in shambles. But as it breeds, it also destroys man. That's why I take no pride in man. I am agnostic, yet that is the concept of many theists.
Maybe governments should pay more attention to the philosophies of the Greeks rather than steal their form of gov't and turn into a game of chess

 

[Shu]

Here's my opinion on Government in general. No matter what, you'll either get one assbag, or a group of assbags to screw it up for the rest of us.

The way we judge our politicians here in America is.. do they do something for our pocket books, or do they take away from it. That's about it. We want low gas prices, free healthcare, job security, low taxation, and whatever else, all while not making our country look bad.

I have never really witnessed any true form of a Democracy when the folks we vote for don't even have any power to act on what they said they were going to do, when we voted for them.

 

[Linnaete]

This is why I find it a fallacy to really call any representative form of democracy a "democracy" at all. How democratic is it? Is it anything like the Athenian democracy where its civilians all have a say in things? Well, no as it's never going to be practical in this day and age and sadly with this representative system you have candidates voted into office who will do something totally different than what you elected them to do in the first place.

We think we know what a democracy is/looks like/should be. But as we get more and more politicians who totally screw up, screw us over or are just total arseholes in general, less and less of us are likely to want to get involved in the political process, so our democracies become less and less representative of the people. Democracy is never healthy when the government is hardly even representative at all and when we have such little faith and trust in our leaders. And is it even much of a democracy now as such?

 

[coffeecup]

I don't understand OP's problem. Is he mad about the way our political system has manifested? The two party system isn't a necessity of the Constitution, it arose out of the people a very very long time ago. So the problem we are facing today isn't a byproduct of the government, but rather its is a byproduct of the people.

Also our republic replaced what you'd call "true democracy" because it isn't really a feasible idea when you've got a country as large as the USA and one founded on the ideas of federalism. Plus seeing that our economy is one of capitalism, you've got lobbyists who support minority special interests to be wary of as well. There are many many external factors that affect the political process more than just the gov't.

I think the best solution isn't some total government overhaul, but rather dependent on the voters to become better informed decision makers. All I can say is that people vote for individuals based upon pretty tenuous reasons. I hated the ad they put out in the last presidential election that urged people to vote just cuz it should be done. I don't think uninformed voters should be injecting misplaced votes into the system (which in this case was young voters going for Obama cuz it was the hip thing to do). It just undermines the underlying rationale of why democracy is a beneficial form of gov't. One of the requirements is informed voters. This requirement is pretty flawed within the USA.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I think the best solution isn't some total government overhaul, but rather dependent on the voters to become better informed decision makers.

Yeah, and that's more feasible right? Like you said, millions of people and only a handful of smart people..

Pure democracy ensures that right stays right and doesn't become fear of losing control. Like over-correcting yourself on a road: If there's anything a democratic-type nation has screwed up on, it's adding complexities to a beautiful idea, making it ugly.

That's what certain countries get for trying to be perfect. Look at China. They are communists primarily. And you know what? It works. They haven't changed jack shit for over 4000 years.

Now look at America. 400 years old and on the verge of destruction. If they were purely democratic from the start, one of two things would've happened. A: they would've flourished and been righteous. Or B, they crumble like Pompeii.
Either one would work well, because look at America now. It's failing nation that a lot of countries would've done well without. And they would have the trillions of dollars that America is currently holding in stocks and bonds.

That's right. Your money is in Americas vaults because we simply cannot give up uneeded luxeries for the likes of you.
Mwah hahahahaha!!

See. China= leading manufacturer . America= 400 years. Fucked up gov't. Worlds highest deficit. Can't even support it's own people. Do the math.

If we followed suit on a pure democracy, we'd be listening to reason and not to the next AsSwIpe trying to get some glory.

 

[coffeecup]

:/
USA is superior to China in pretty much every aspect except economy growth. Total economy (by GDP): USA wins. Civil liberties: USA wins. Standard of living: USA wins. Disparity in wealth: USA wins. To say China > USA is just wrong on all fronts.

As for the USA going on the verge of destruction. I have no idea where people get this idea. Is it the debt? No, it's still manageable. Interest on US bonds isn't like credit card debt, the USA is still in a position to slide back into acceptable levels...especially since it's starting to move right now.

Plus foreign countries can relinquish their bonds anytime they want, it's called selling them on the bond market. You don't have to hold bonds to maturity. If China wanted to, it could unload all of its bonds and inflate the $$$ to dangerous levels. But they're not going to do that because it'll fuck with their economy as well as its own stature to other nations.

And pure democracy wouldn't have prevented the current economic crisis. The government isn't solely attributable to the housing bubble and its eventual collapse. Even the average Joe is pretty blameworthy seeing as they jump on refinancing deals to get mortgages on homes they aren't able to afford. People love to point the finger whenever things go sour, and a lot of the time the gov't is the most visible target. :/

 

[Sum1sgruj]

The U.S. is superior to the extent that it puts up a massive front. Other than that, the U.S. doesn't want to mess with China. In fact, nobody fucks with China, because they have the upper hand on just about anything. If the U.S is the so called 'moral authority', than China more than exceeds economical authority.
in fact, China hustles everybody and we have to deal with it because all they simply have to do is cut you off and it's over. It's happened before. Hell, it almost happened to the U.S.,, until they shut their mouths and decided it's better to be bullied rather than front and be left without a paddle.

So as far as that goes, I dunno what sources you've looked at but it definitely isn't CNN.

Foreign countries can relinquish their bonds whenever, but the result is worse than keeping them alive to begin with. What can someone do with merchandise they can't profit from? Try to make the money back they lost, or have greedy ass America give them cash, which is practically an I.O.U sticky?
Foreign policy with America is a bad joke. The country obtainerd all this money purely out of it's greedy ambition. Forget about civil liberties. The gov't robs it's people when it runs out of other assets.
The gov't is a dog that has bitten the hand that fed it,, it's people.

So, I don't understand how America tops anybody, really. Well, besides the fact that if your country went to war with theirs, you'd get blown up by a missle that YOU helped fund.,

Trust me, pure democracy would have prevented this altogether. When it comes down to it, the people in the States are forced to choose either: A, asshole #1, or B, asshole #2. That's not even democracy,, it's.. I dunno, I'm sure you can think of a great anology though_ because it's not a secret that America has screwed itself in a very bad way.

 

[coffeecup]

You're right, I don't read CNN. I stopped reading CNN years ago when its top headline for 3 days straight was the Paris Hilton scandal. Thus I've moved on to the Nytimes and the Post.

I really don't understand how you use economic growth as the number one metric on how to gauge the well-being of a nation and its citizens. I've already conceded that the economic growth in China is pretty solid and it is now a big player in the world economy; however, that's not the sole factor to consider in determining whether one nation trumps another. Stop reading CNN headlines and try to understand basic foreign/domestic policy and economics so that the news items can be a supplement to your thoughts rather than the end conclusion. Don't buy into the hype.

Also your take on holding/relinquishing bonds and the relation it has to foreign investment and dollar holding makes little to no sense at all. I don't even know how to respond other than say, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't really feel like arguing with you since it's pretty apparent that you have an extremely disdainful view of everything USA that isn't really backed up by much more than your personal disappointment and distrust of the federal government.

Also, saying "trust me" for something as drastic as saying pure democracy would've made the USA into some utopia is utter nonsense. I don't even understand how someone can come to such a clear and adamant conclusion when there are a plethora of considerations that need to be made. Even the most meticulous analysis would have to be qualified with some doubt as to its conclusions. Nothing in life is that simple.

Sorry if my post came across as a bit heated.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

America didn't make itself. Other countries did. The country has been in large sums of debt since the Revolutionary War. Before it actually even became a nation..
It used to be run by the people, but now it's gov't is so fueled to the point that it runs itself, and the citizens become baggage,, except the rich and patriotic 2 percent.

And as far as the economical issues go,, I know exactly what I'm talking about. It's not exactly rocket science, you know.. In fact, foreign economics can be viewed the same way a town trades with another, or a state to another, etc. Do you see my point? Confusing the situation isn't going to conquer the argument. The only difference is mass and volume.

And who said America has such beautiful liberties? Sure they may be better than China's, but this isn't exactly a paradise either. All you gotta do in the U.S. is make one little mistake in your life, or not be raised in wealth, and all that 'freedom and liberty' crap will sound more like poetry than anything else.
Even more so since the 'land of opportunity' is literally just poetry now.

And the whole 'I don't trust the gov't',, I hate to break it to you, but I'm one of many, many others. Actually, half the damn country doesn't believe too much in the gov't right now, and I wasn't even using that to 'back me up'. I was just showing that I'm smart and don't believe in a screwed up republic-tainted democracy that is currently raping-my-wallet-for-their-own benefit-and-shitting-in-my-face-thereafter.

Much like they do other countries.

 

[coffeecup]

You really need to think before you speak (or post), because it sounds like you're fueled by emotions rather than reason. Here, let's go down the yellow brick road.

America didn't make itself. Other countries did. The country has been in large sums of debt since the Revolutionary War. Before it actually even became a nation..

It's called leverage. Every single business in the world does this. FYI this is why the bailout was necessary. The credit market was going to freeze, thus businesses contract (no debt to stay productive or expand), then more people are fired and less jobs are given, thus we're stuck in a rut for a longer period of time.

But I'm guessing you were against the bailout (like a majority of Americans) because its sole purpose was to help out the plutocracy. :/

It used to be run by the people, but now it's gov't is so fueled to the point that it runs itself, and the citizens become baggage,, except the rich and patriotic 2 percent.

Government =/= Capitalism. The disparity in income is a main byproduct of a capitalistic economy. Obama and the dems are actually trying to redistribute the wealth via higher taxes on the rich for public social services. Yes that's right a millionaire's tax where the money will be funneled for the benefit of most the population. If you take out government intervention, then you're going to get a huge disparity in income so a hands off gov't will only exacerbate the problem.

But once Obama takes a stand, people call him a Socialist for this very reason. It's fucking ridiculous.

And as far as the economical issues go,, I know exactly what I'm talking about. It's not exactly rocket science, you know.. In fact, foreign economics can be viewed the same way a town trades with another, or a state to another, etc. Do you see my point? Confusing the situation isn't going to conquer the argument. The only difference is mass and volume.

No...just no...You've simplified foreign trade to such an extent that it's like you got all your knowledge about it from Age of Empires or something. Please go read some treatises on the subject.

And who said America has such beautiful liberties? Sure they may be better than China's, but this isn't exactly a paradise either.

Have you ever been to China? Have you seen the labor and living conditions? And once you venture outside the city, you'll be thankful to be in the USA.

All you gotta do in the U.S. is make one little mistake in your life, or not be raised in wealth, and all that 'freedom and liberty' crap will sound more like poetry than anything else.
Even more so since the 'land of opportunity' is literally just poetry now.

And this is isolated to the USA? No, this is an unfortunate circumstance of any nation out there. But the USA is one of the best in providing the necessary services and aid to indigent individuals. I mean a good chunk of our debt actually stems from entitlements spending and public services.

As for your bit about the "land of opportunity," don't drink the Tea Party Koolaid my friend. I agree that not everyone has the same chance at success and hard work is required, but it's not fucking hopeless. Take off the rose colored glasses of your pipedream utopia and embrace the difficulties of reality as a part of life.

And the whole 'I don't trust the gov't',, I hate to break it to you, but I'm one of many, many others. Actually, half the damn country doesn't believe too much in the gov't right now, and I wasn't even using that to 'back me up'. I was just showing that I'm smart and don't believe in a screwed up republic-tainted democracy that is currently raping-my-wallet-for-their-own benefit-and-shitting-in-my-face-thereafter.

Much like they do other countries.

Yes, let's jump on the bandwagon without analyzing the situation first. You're right, that's fucking genius. The population is disgruntled and disappointed that Obama didn't pull out his magic wand and revive the housing market, boost the economy to pre-2007 levels, and provide social services for everyone while reducing the debt.

It's fucking ridiculous what the people expect and believe is actually possible within such a short span of time.

You also need to take the time to read up on some issues, because a lot of your arguments take only a facial analysis on very complex issues. Sure simplification is a commendable, but oversimplification will just lead to ignorance and, for governance, disasterous policy decisions.

 

[Tmoo]

when you get down to the basics it's all about the people. those with power will use their power. it's in human nature to look out for oneself and those around you - but not people you aren't affiliated with. most of the time.

because of that, there isn't any political model that will work without problems. malice and indifference will always worm their way into society.

EDIT: edited to sound less like a harp on my fellow humans. yes, i am aware i'm somewhat of a misanthrope.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

I agree that not everyone has the same chance at success and hard work is required, but it's not fucking hopeless. Take off the rose colored glasses of your pipedream utopia and embrace the difficulties of reality as a part of life.

Spoken like a true Glenn Beck sausage smoker.

Alright, first off: There are certain complexities with foreign trade. It is due to relationships and balances. But that is as far as it goes and you knew what I meant.

Secondly, the U.S. is the most in debt nation in the world, gained in the little 400 years it has been around. What 'liberties' does America have in store for me that China doesn't if I'm fucking BrOkE??

And the last thing: Jump on the bandwagon? You seem to be the one jumping on the bandwagon. It's easy to wanna think that other ppl can make miracles happen while you're livin the 'American dream' ><
But as soon as the chips are down, you open up your eyes and actually look up at the hand that was feeding you//

And you need not tell me that my arguments are 'facial analysis' on complex issues'. I seem to be the only one giving a plausible answer//

 

[coffeecup]

Are you even reading my posts, because you're just posting the same thing over and over again. Let's call it quits, and say that we're on opposite sides of the spectrum. I don't think this discussion is heading anywhere but down at the moment. And that's going to lead to us to throwing insults at each other in the end. Let's not go there.

Good luck with your ideas dude.

 

[blakstang98]

Yeah, calling people sausage smokers because they don't agree is highly unnecessary. Lets not make this like a real politial war with mud slinging please. Thank you, carry on.

 

[Martel]

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the government (any government) is that they try to please everyone, or pretend that they are trying to at least. No matter what the government does, someone is going to be unhappy. A successful government wouldn't try to please everyone. Attempting to cater to the needs of everyone and failing miserably is one of the biggest failings of governments these days.

If you give an individual power, they are going to use that power to their own advantage first, and in the interests of the people they're supposed to be managing second. A governmental system is entirely the product of the egotism of its current leader. All the systems have in common are the laws that were laid down as a groundwork to how people are supposed to behave in society.

These government models like Democracy or whatever are nothing more than ideas, designed to appeal to the masses. None of them work, or even come close to doing what they claim to do. They're just far-fetched dreams that conform to the idea of what a realistic governmental system would operate like, with one purpose only: to bring the individuals holding up the idea into power so that they can implement their own ideas.

In my opinion, we were better off in dictatorships. Everyone knew where they stood in society, and it had an identifiable structure. If you didn't like it, that was just tough shit. Rulers acted in their own self-interest, but things did get done, unlike now, where nothing ever gets done in a government. Power has become so diluted that its almost not worth having - it was much better when the leader could simply make the decisions without consent. If the people didn't like it, they could try and revolt. It was that simple. The collective will of the people could keep rulers from doing anything insane (well, most of them) and things worked out, for the most part.

No doubt people will disagree with me on that point, but there we are.

 

[Sum1sgruj]

Yeah, calling people sausage smokers because they don't agree is highly unnecessary. Lets not make this like a real politial war with mud slinging please. Thank you, carry on.

I'd like to think I was insulted first, technically. But I didn't mean to offend the person, I was just trying to induce a little reality check on the matter at hand via unnecessary party leaders.

Coffeecup, I have thoroughly read your posts, and you have valid points. At the same time, however, you fail to see the big picture I am talking about. Categorizing ways of life and gov't trade hardly accounts for it's pitfalls.