Glorified Monster, John Wayne Gasy

[Roland_Deschain]

So I decided to make a secondary form of debate that pretty much was born from the whole Casey and Hulster thing. After doing some thinking I figured yeah I guess its just porn, and there is no use arugeing the morality of a capitolist market after the woman was "declared innocent".

So rather I decided to take the whole morality verse entertainment after doing some reading about a character that was especially horrible. John Wayne Gacy.

Anyway here is the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy

Here is a summary of what he did.

"The killer clown", raped and murdered 33 young teenage boys between 1972 and 1978. He became known as the killer clown due to charitable events and fundraisers he had. To make it short I will add that he had numerous assault charges, drug addictions and affairs beforehand and during.

Next is a list of video and books that came from this mans actions, copy paste style of course.


Film

• The made-for-TV film To Catch a Killer, starring Brian Dennehy as John Wayne Gacy, was released in 1992. The film is largely based on the investigation of Gacy, following the disappearance of Robert Piest, by Des Plaines Police and their efforts to arrest him before the scheduled civil suit hearing on December 22.
• A feature film, Gacy, was released in 2003. This film cast Mark Holton in the role of John Gacy and largely focuses upon Gacy's life after he moved to Norwood Park in 1971 up until his arrest in 1978.
• The made-for-TV film Dear Mr. Gacy was released in 2010, starring William Forsythe as John Wayne Gacy. The film is based upon the book The Last Victim, written by Jason Moss.[183] The film focuses upon the correspondence between Moss and Gacy before Gacy invited Moss to visit him on death row in 1994.
• A horror film, 8213: Gacy House, was also released in 2010. This film focuses upon a fictional account of a team of paranormal investigators basing themselves in a house constructed on the former site of Gacy's home and attempting to contact his spirit.

Books

• Buried Dreams: Inside the Mind of Serial Killer John Wayne Gacy, written by Tim Cahill (ISBN 1-85702-084-7).
• Johnny and Me: The True Story of John Wayne Gacy, written by Barry Boschelli (ISBN 1-4343-2184-3).[184]
• Killer Clown: the John Wayne Gacy Murders, written by Terry Sullivan and Peter T. Maiken (ISBN 0-7860-1422-9).
• The Last Victim: A True-Life Journey into the Mind of the Serial Killer, written by Jason Moss and Jeffrey Kottler, Ph.D (ISBN 0-7535-0398-0).
• The Man Who Killed Boys, written by Clifford L. Linedecker (ISBN 0-312-95228-7).
• John Wayne Gacy: Defending A Monster, written by Sam L. Amirante and Danny Broderick (ISBN 1-616-08248-8).

Television

• "Hell on Earth 2006", the 150th episode of the Comedy Central animated series South Park, portrays Gacy and fellow serial killers Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer as a Three Stooges-like trio of comic relief buffoons sent to run errands for Satan's birthday party.

NOW... long story short, I know its America, and I know its freedom and everything, and we should be allowed to blah blah blah. I know a lot of people are going to feel this way, and I am sure they will say it, and I am hoping to see everyones opinions on the matter.

Now in my opinion, and what I make from all of this... is that we have straight up glorified a serial killer. This makes me a little sick to see, because this give every other serial killer a reason to exsist. Its no different from the Texas chainsaw massacre, they have made a monster a legend.

Now let me ask you honestly, and I want you to think about it before you answer. Do you think this is morally sound? Do you think this a good example for entertainment? Do you think there should be some form of control over overkilling things like this? Or do you think people should just change their way of thinking when it comes to marketing this stuff.

 

[Will Graham]

For the most part I do not see how any of this is glorifying Gacy, in any way shape or form. Films have been made based around his murders and the investigation that caught him. Many films and media have been based on the lives and actions of some of history's sickest humans. How does that glorify them though? They are simply narratives with a background based in true events.

One of my favourite films is Zodiac, based on the murders performed by the Zodiac killer in Northern California years ago. It was a well told story, and was interesting to see why someone would do these things. It explored the work that went into catching someone like that, and how society was affected by their actions. Not for one second did I think 'wow this murderer is a pretty great guy'.

Should documentaries discussing some of history's most evil dictator's be classed as the same kind of glorification?

 

[Roland_Deschain]

For the most part I do not see how any of this is glorifying Gacy, in any way shape or form. Films have been made based around his murders and the investigation that caught him. Many films and media have been based on the lives and actions of some of history's sickest humans. How does that glorify them though? They are simply narratives with a background based in true events.

However they are not all, some of them are just actual horror movies and skits about him. Besides how many documentarys are needed for one horrible monster. 30 years later they made a horror film in 2010. They glorify him as a mass killer.

One of my favourite films is Zodiac, based on the murders performed by the Zodiac killer in Northern California years ago. It was a well told story, and was interesting to see why someone would do these things. It explored the work that went into catching someone like that, and how society was affected by their actions. Not for one second did I think 'wow this murderer is a pretty great guy'.

Well you are allowed to be entertained by it, and I am not saying you shouldn't. I guess I will respond with a question. Do you think that the entertainment and knowledge of the history of his capture and crimes, outweighs the effect it has on other loony people and potential or current serial killers that will take all of this into account perhaps as even inspiration? Would it not just be better if they vanished from the face of time rather then lingering around as an image. I guess I would rathe rmonsters be forgotten then scribed down as legend.

Should documentaries discussing some of history's most evil dictator's be classed as the same kind of glorification?

I believe if its country affected history then it is most important to teach that, as to encourage the world from learning from mistakes. However I do not feel the same way about 1 man who slaughtered and raped 33 innocent children out of his own demented desires and passions. I feel that this does not teach us anything.

 

[Will Graham]

I see you ignored my helpful multi-quote advice

However they are not all, some of them are just actual horror movies and skits about him. Besides how many documentarys are needed for one horrible monster. 30 years later they made a horror film in 2010. They glorify him as a mass killer.

A horror film is hardly glory, they are focussing on the fact that what he did was so horrifying that they do not even need to invent a murderer. It makes sense that they choose an old mass murderer, less chance of offending victim's families than a recently caught/dead killer. A skit implies they are making fun of him, laughing at what once terrified people seems to me the opposite of glorification

Well you are allowed to be entertained by it, and I am not saying you shouldn't. I guess I will respond with a question. Do you think that the entertainment and knowledge of the history of his capture and crimes, outweighs the effect it has on other loony people and potential or current serial killers that will take all of this into account perhaps as even inspiration? Would it not just be better if they vanished from the face of time rather then lingering around as an image. I guess I would rathe rmonsters be forgotten then scribed down as legend.

Have you ever heard the joke, that if you are the kind of person who can hijack a plane with a nail clippers, you can hijack a plane without nail clippers? My point is, that if someone is capable of mass-murder they are going to do it regardless of a film.

I believe if its country affected history then it is most important to teach that, as to encourage the world from learning from mistakes. However I do not feel the same way about 1 man who slaughtered and raped 33 innocent children out of his own demented desires and passions. I feel that this does not teach us anything.

So how many people does a man have to kill to go from maniac, to historical figure? I do not think we should try and bury something just because it exposes the depths of inhumanity

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Honestly I do not think that they will ALL do it without the image. So many people want to go down in history for doing something wicked, and the media and entertainment business can insure the success of this. There are many different copycat serial killers who perform the same things as other did, and then "improve" upon the methods. Some of them are from disturbed beings, however many of them are taken in by inspiration of other killers and want to leave their mark, thats old news.

Horror films DO glorify serial killers... I know you have seen people dress up as the texas chainsaw guy during halloween, I think most of us have. They feed us entertainment while they feed sick minded people the craving to make others feel fear. Its more then just films though, its the idea, the name, and the acts, that are never forgotten.

Its not about how many people you have to kill, its how you effect the country. I mean honestly it would be pretty damn hard not to teach the world about Hitler because he affected so much of it, as did the war. However this man was a closet rapist, serial killer that posed as a charitable guy while molesting children and murdering them, stashing them inside his home, definately not as relevant regarding a cultural monster.

I guess in this case scenario I feel like we should let these people vanish, they do not deserved to be remembered, let alone glorified.

 

[asm]

Oddly enough, most people don't have any qualms in watching TV shows or films about modern war, though most modern wars are absolutely brutal. While people think technology makes warfare more surgical, it doesn't. The wars in iraq and afghanistan contain thousands upon thousands of women and children bombed to death.

I don't see why it's any different, with the exception you can't name or see the perpetrators or the victims, and no one is wearing a clown suit.

Someone's still making a dollar or two from it.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Oddly enough, most people don't have any qualms in watching TV shows or films about modern war, though most modern wars are absolutely brutal. While people think technology makes warfare more surgical, it doesn't. The wars in iraq and afghanistan contain thousands upon thousands of women and children bombed to death.

I don't see why it's any different, with the exception you can't name or see the perpetrators or the victims, and no one is wearing a clown suit.

Someone's still making a dollar or two from it.

Its a different aspect I feel, on one hand we are what I like to call INFORMING, that is if you actually care about whats happening, which I sort of do. One informes us of what is happening in the world now, the other is hovering on the horrible acts of a man 30 years ago.

I think that when things change goverments and countries it must go down into the history of a country obviously, and war does this wether we like it or not, however I do not see any reason to remember people like this.

 

[asm]

Its a different aspect I feel, on one hand we are what I like to call INFORMING, that is if you actually care about whats happening, which I sort of do. One informes us of what is happening in the world now, the other is hovering on the horrible acts of a man 30 years ago.

I think that when things change goverments and countries it must go down into the history of a country obviously, and war does this wether we like it or not, however I do not see any reason to remember people like this.

But the entertainment industry is rewriting history. When people think of WW2 for example, they think of the absolute good triumphing against the absolute evil. I'm certainly no nazi sympathizer, but for example, the Dresden bombings killed around 25 thousand civilians. Outside a Vonnegut book, I really haven't honestly seen this mentioned in popular culture, and I really doubt "most" people are even aware of it ever happening.

I guess what I am saying is a bit off from what you mean, but besides some pop industry depictions of the vietnam war, war movies generally providing entertainment and romanticizing death and bravery, while forgetting the innocent.

I really don't see how that's any more or less immoral than profiting out of a serial killer. I do see your point though.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

But the entertainment industry is rewriting history. When people think of WW2 for example, they think of the absolute good triumphing against the absolute evil. I'm certainly no nazi sympathizer, but for example, the Dresden bombings killed around 25 thousand civilians. Outside a Vonnegut book, I really haven't honestly seen this mentioned in popular culture, and I really doubt "most" people are even aware of it ever happening.

I guess what I am saying is a bit off from what you mean, but besides some pop industry depictions of the vietnam war, war movies generally providing entertainment and romanticizing death and bravery, while forgetting the innocent.

I really don't see how that's any more or less immoral than profiting out of a serial killer. I do see your point though.

I think you do have the gist of what I am getting at. I guess when it comes to war... war is war, wether we like it or not, its too bad when its cruel or unfair, however times it might be necisarry for survival. I believe in killing for survival and certain ideals of life. And its depressing when war happens when not needed, sure.

Some of these things though I believe great for idealizing certain beliefs as a whole, or useful for reliving humanity ill begotten actions. However I was more or less talking about the idea of doing the same for a serial killer, why should they deserve to live on after death?

 

[asm]

I think you do have the gist of what I am getting at. I guess when it comes to war... war is war, wether we like it or not, its too bad when its cruel or unfair, however times it might be necisarry for survival. I believe in killing for survival and certain ideals of life. And its depressing when war happens when not needed, sure.

Some of these things though I believe great for idealizing certain beliefs as a whole, or useful for reliving humanity ill begotten actions. However I was more or less talking about the idea of doing the same for a serial killer, why should they deserve to live on after death?

I can see that. In all honesty, I don't really know about Gacy as I don't really have much of a serial killer fascination (other than Dahmer but I've read about him simply out of curiosity because he was such a bizarre person). I mean about the media, is it really glorifying?

Out of all the stuff I've seen that's made about serial killers, I get the opposite feeling. If anything, at least the stuff about Dahmer in popular culture rather leaves me with the feeling of amazement that how someone can be so pathetic...

Historically though, most serial killers are "historical" in the sense that they're pretty significant events of their times. Someone making money out of it certainly can be considered immoral, but they're remembered first and foremost for the reason that they did something to remember them by (be it good or evil seems indifferent).

 

[unadulteratedawesome]

Its no different from the Texas chainsaw massacre, they have made a monster a legend.

This happens with or without the media. It's human nature. Things legend because we find them curious or interesting.

Do you think this is morally sound?

Of course it is. It's for entertainment rather than informing, so it doesn't matter what or how they portray or say things.

Do you think there should be some form of control over overkilling things like this?

Fuck no. It doesn't really matter to me who it rubs raw or who gets their panties twisted.

Or do you think people should just change their way of thinking when it comes to marketing this stuff.

No. People are going to find unbelievable things like this interesting. Let them be entertained.

I think it's asinine to suggest that these things have any impact on crazies who decide to kill people. If something like this would be enough to drive them to do it, then anything would be enough. Crazies gonna crazy. Information should never be cast aside or left to rot, no matter how unimportant or sick people think it is. That sickness is what reality is; you can't, and you shouldn't, hide it.

And I don't view most of this entertainment as glorification. Glorification would be putting these people up on a pedestal in a favorable light.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Well unadulterated, it seems we have a different opinion on the matter. I think we should forget these people and stop profiting from muderous accounts of madmen. I know human nature already features these people, but I do not think that is good enough justification to encourage it by giving them a name in history. As for glorification, most serial killers seek glorification for how horrible their crimes are, so to them perhaps it is putting them up on a pedestal.

 

[ElvenAngel]

My two cents is this:

Yeah, a lot of serial killers and eye-popping crimes get their share of media twisting and glorification but in a certain sense, this is human nature. We love the sensational. It's why smaller-scale crimes, like pedophiles who rape one child and are arrested for it, never really get this much attention unless they do something truly heinous.

It's just how human experience is, we are attracted to the sensational, we want to know more about it or even be part of it (think of all the serial killer groupies, they actually exist) because that's just how the human psyche is.

You might say its the only way ordinary people get to experience something this horrible without being victims. It's an immensely complicated psychological thing and I just don't think there's anything else to it. We're not sickos, just humans.

Incidentally I'm researching Bundy these days, for a certain writing project. Much more interesting then Gacy, if you want my humble opinion.

 

[Rydia]

People glorify serial killers with out the media. In my criminology classes, to do research,I would look up videos on youtube for documentaries and court footage. I was surprised at some of the comments.

Kids worship Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the two gunman at Columbine. Comments included that the murdered kids deserved to be killed, that they are heros, girls wanting to date them, comments laughing at people grieving, and many more.They are a legend among teens and they do not have a movie about them. There are a few books written, and I think a documentary.

Simular comments worshipping Dahmer and Bundy were seen. Most were people calling them heros and brave for what they did. And many of these men, while in jail, recieve love letters from women. I think Bundy even got married and had a kid on death row.

I don't necessarily think that it is wrong to make movies about these people. I think people are fascinated and well scared of serial killers and they want to some how understand why they did what they did.

Without the media, people would still find these people on websites (some that even show coroners photos), and youtube. And I don't believe we should forget these people. Others need to know that people like this exist so they can take precautions. (Men are victims too) I remember recieving an e-mail a few years ago listing tricks serial killers were using to lure people to them.

There are many more movies, books, and documentaries written about Hitler, who had many more killed than any of these people. Do we need to control literature and media on him too?

 

[Roland_Deschain]

I don't necessarily think that it is wrong to make movies about these people. I think people are fascinated and well scared of serial killers and they want to some how understand why they did what they did.

I am trying to distinguish between what I think are imformative movies. Some try to relate to how this people think and feel for a reason (law enforment, criminal mind ect ect). However, so many of this movies just seem to entertain for enjoyment (horror movies ect).

Without the media, people would still find these people on websites (some that even show coroners photos), and youtube. And I don't believe we should forget these people. Others need to know that people like this exist so they can take precautions. (Men are victims too) I remember recieving an e-mail a few years ago listing tricks serial killers were using to lure people to them.

I guess this is where I disagree with you, and it seems most people who have posted. I think there are a great many serial killers who would have not exsisted, if it was not for the wide spread acknowledgment from the world (not all of them, but some). Most people want to be acknowleded for something good, however some just want to be acknowledged.

There are many more movies, books, and documentaries written about Hitler, who had many more killed than any of these people. Do we need to control literature and media on him too?

I addressed this earlier in the thread regarding historical monsters. While I find it may contradict what I am saying, you must admit one thing. Its much easier for one person to pick up a knife and go on a killing spree, then it is for a person to rise into leadership of a country, and wage war with the world.

 

[Donald Trump]

I am trying to distinguish between what I think are imformative movies. Some try to relate to how this people think and feel for a reason (law enforment, criminal mind ect ect). However, so many of this movies just seem to entertain for enjoyment (horror movies ect).

Most action movies and quite a few cartoons glorify violence.
The heroes are people who by the end of the movie have probably killed hundreds of people. Violence is sexy.
Quite a few sports are also quite violent and the violence is often highlighted. People love seeing people getting absolutely hammered in Rugby or in American Football/Gridiron/whatever you call it.
Violence is prominent in the media already, so a couple of movies about a few serial killers is hardly going to make a difference.

I guess this is where I disagree with you, and it seems most people who have posted. I think there are a great many serial killers who would have not exsisted, if it was not for the wide spread acknowledgment from the world (not all of them, but some). Most people want to be acknowleded for something good, however some just want to be acknowledged.

I agree, some people just want to be famous, or more accurately infamous. But you can't ignore stories about serial killers because there's a risk that people will murder people just to get their 15 seconds. The media has a duty to report on stories, they couldn't ignore big Joe Fritzl just incase someone else decided to look their daughter in the basement and rape her a lot.
Perhaps the victims of serial killers seeking publicity can be called Collateral damage. They'd be in good company.

I addressed this earlier in the thread regarding historical monsters. While I find it may contradict what I am saying, you must admit one thing. Its much easier for one person to pick up a knife and go on a killing spree, then it is for a person to rise into leadership of a country, and wage war with the world.

But by giving enormous amounts of publicity to Hitler and other Nazis, National Socialism will always be an idea that is able to gain new followers. If it wasn't on the History Channel every five minutes there probably wouldn't be so many Neo-Nazis skinheads about.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

Most action movies and quite a few cartoons glorify violence.
The heroes are people who by the end of the movie have probably killed hundreds of people. Violence is sexy.
Quite a few sports are also quite violent and the violence is often highlighted. People love seeing people getting absolutely hammered in Rugby or in American Football/Gridiron/whatever you call it.
Violence is prominent in the media already, so a couple of movies about a few serial killers is hardly going to make a difference.

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying we should ban all action and horror movies. I do agree that violence is "sexy". I just feel that we should try not to create and depict some of these monsters in the same manner. I think that real potential serial killers would be more inspired to do the works of mass murder, if the entertainment industry is advocating real people, and not just fictionous fantasy.

I agree, some people just want to be famous, or more accurately infamous. But you can't ignore stories about serial killers because there's a risk that people will murder people just to get their 15 seconds. The media has a duty to report on stories, they couldn't ignore big Joe Fritzl just incase someone else decided to look their daughter in the basement and rape her a lot.
Perhaps the victims of serial killers seeking publicity can be called Collateral damage. They'd be in good company.

I agree that the media should not be shunned when it comes to reporting of the discovery and trials of these people. I am however talking about the people who make non informative entertaining movies. There are plenty of innovative ideas for people who did not actually do all of these things. As far as memoirs and auto biographys go, I think its a shame that some of these monsters have more then actual presidents and historical figures.

But by giving enormous amounts of publicity to Hitler and other Nazis, National Socialism will always be an idea that is able to gain new followers. If it wasn't on the History Channel every five minutes there probably wouldn't be so many Neo-Nazis skinheads about.

Thats true, but hopefully the world is slowly learning a lesson form his actions as a mojority though. I guess this could go hand in hand with the sentiment "overkill".