Final Fantasy's religious themes - should one be offended?

I'll say this, to begin with. I'm Christian, I love the Final Fantasy series, and X is my third favorite.

Having said that, I most certainly believe that the writers of the Final Fantasy games are atheists. I don't have proof, merely pretty good evidence.

SPOILER WARNINGS!!!! I delve deep into a couple of games (X, really) so if you haven't beaten some of the Final Fantasy games, you've been warned.

First evidence: Shown above in the first post. Final Fantasy Tactics is indeed a rip on the Catholic Church. Now, one could argue that this is not the case, but the similarities are too similar to be coincidental. If you don't believe me or the guy who wrote the article, play the game yourself and see. Keep it in mind. You will almost certainly draw the same conclusion.

Second evidence: Final Fantasy X. The game is FILLED with religion. FILLED TO THE BRIM. You have Yahweh-oops. I mean, Yevon- who unleashed sin on the world (how very ambiguous) due to the mistakes of the people. Everyone worships him. Everyone loves him. Everyone fears him. Now, one who had only played Final Fantasy X halfway would probably believe that the creators were Christian (or Jewish, perhaps) because it seems to support religion, up to the very sacrificial nature of Yuna giving her life for the sake of everyone (Christ) and Yahweh-gosh I keep doing this- Yevon backing off. But then, all of a sudden, it flips. Yevon is a fraud. Sin is merely a very powerful human, and the only reason Yevon even exists is because those with "fayth" dream him up. And, what happens? The humans end up beating the god and get to choose their own destiny. How nice. This is so blatantly obvious I really hope none of you would believe otherwise. But everyone has an opinion I guess.

Third evidence: Facing a god/demi god/ruler of the universe type at the end of the games. Especially in III, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII

III-Cloud of Darkness. She can return everything to "nothingness." (Hmm. God.) and the warriors of light destroy her and give man back the power.
V- Neo Exdeath. Brings everyone into the "void" and wants to destroy mankind. The four heroes destroy him and give man back the power.
VI- Kefka. Becomes a god, deems mankind unworthy of life. The buttload of heroes destroy him and give man back the power. (He does sorta succeed in destroying things.)
VII- Sephiroth. Wants to destroy the planet and use it as his vessel. The heroes stop him and he continues to come back again and again due to fan favorite.
VIII- Ultimecia. Wants to destory everything in existence and become the only thing alive. The heroes destroy her and give man back the power.
IX- Necron. Having decided that man was unfit for life, he decides to bring everything back to nothingness. The heroes stop him and give man back the power.
X- Yu Yevon. Unleashes sin every once in a while. The heroes murder a defenseless Yu Yevon and give man back the power. Tidus fades away because apparently Yevon was a dream of a those with "fayth" or whatever and so is Tidus. I can't make this up. It's really true, the game designers claim it's all fiction. They think we're idiots.

XII- Vayne. He becomes a god. The heroes beat him.

XIII- Haven't played it yet. But I can almost guarantee I can guess the ending. The heroes destroy a god and give power back to mankind. Amirite?

So, yeah. That's pretty much all my evidence. I've got some other stuff but I mean if you can't see it after that then you're looking at it from a very different perspective.

Do I feel offended by all this?
Honestly, I haven't really decided yet. As long as I keep what's fact and what's fiction straight in my head, I'm cool. It's just really hard to not feel offended by such blatant disregard for religion, though. It'd be like adding the word "gay" into random sentences in the game. Actually, no. It'd be like adding a word "fay" to describe males who act feminine in the game, then spouting off "that's so fay!" every once in a while.
 
FinalCzen said:
Should one feel offended by the mild religious mockery which seems to occur, perhaps unintentionally, in Final Fantasy games at times?

Example of case in point: http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/1998/q3/072398ja.html
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"mild mockery" "seems" and "perhaps unintentionally"...
Why should you feel offended? thats retarded...yes the creators seem to put a lot of religious elements in the game, but tbh I never noticed pure stabs or hints or insults.... you guys make a good point though cuz I played these games when I was much younger I may have to play all of them over again to get this hidden message in my system.

I tend to believe they just have their own religion in FF, bit naive yes but who cares..

Maybe the hidden message = RELIGION = OFTEN MANIPULATION and POWERHUNGRY men who are behind it. Most of the time religion end up with negative aspects even though some are truly sincere.

Fact is MEN IS UNWORTHY , RELIGION = made by men thus itself is unworthy.

I myself do believe in a higher being, but I dont believe in any religion, I would never trust a book made by human hands.

Maybe this is what they are trying to say? OR YES THEY ARE ATHEISTS :P
Nothing wrong with that :mokken:
We all human anyways.
 
FinalCzen said:
Should one feel offended by the mild religious mockery which seems to occur, perhaps unintentionally, in Final Fantasy games at times?
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"Mild?" "Seems?" "Unintentionally?" No need to weaken your point like that. :)

I don't think Tactics should be considered offensive. Yes, it's church is strongly based on the Catholic church. Yes, there are obvious parallels to Christianity. But, it also takes place in a very medieval setting, a time when the Catholic church was very powerful and very corrupt. So... unless you're a time traveling priest from the middle ages... I don't think there's any need to be offended here. It's just a plot with some historical parallels.

Final Fantasy X on the other hand... Final Fantasy X is anti EVERY religion. Or at least, there's a strong argument that the whole game is trying to make the point that religion holds people and society back. The difference between it and Tactics comes in how the characters act and what they say about it. Wakka is a guy struggling with his religion. Rikku is an atheist trying to puzzle out the actions of her religious friends. Seymour is a priest using the people's faith for personal gain. When Yuna confronts Yunalesca and she says "And I will do it without false hope" that's what seals it for me.

In the Japanese version, Sin is called Shin, death. The people of Spira could improve their world, they could make end Spira's cycle of destruction, they could stop sending their best, the people who want to make the world better: their summoners and guardians, to die. But they don't because they hold on to false hope that their faith can save them from Sin, that their faith can save them from death, so...

Going back to the real world, it goes along with Marx's quote: "Religion is the opiate of the masses." People are much more likely to accept their miserable lot in life if they have some sort of faith. People don't generally try to change the world if they're promised heaven. As a corollary, more people are more religious in bad times.

That's my two cents. Actually, I don't know that X is purposefully, actively anti-religious, but I think the creators definitely wanted us to think about these things. That's part of why X is my favorite. :)
 
Personally, here is how I feel.

Should you be offended? No
Am I offended? No

I'm sorry, but these are games. They are made up stories. I mean, sure, maybe a religion in one of them closely resembles a real religion, but I don't think the developers sat in a room and said "you know, I think in this next Final Fantasy game, we should make a mockery out of [any religion here]."

I find it really hard to believe how anyone can be offended by fiction (where nothing in the story is in the real world, like religions). See, what South Park does is completely different from what Final Fantasy may be doing. South Park doesn't sugar coat anything and they blatantly go out of their way to poke fun at ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Final Fantasy, if they really do mock real religions, at least put effort into making their religious aspects look original.

Here is how I see it. I could sit here and come up with my own Final Fantasy story that includes a major religion doing something that the players are supposed to stop them from doing. When other people see that religion (that I made up), people would surely point out any similarities to real religions, trying to make it look like I was mocking them, when in reality, I was trying to make a fictional religion.

Isn't fiction easier to write when you base things in the story off of things and real life (maybe that's just me though, since I have no creativity)? If I made a character, I would probably base him/her off of someone I know in real life. Since I know how they act, it would be easier to incorporate that into the character. So, while the Final Fantasy series may appear to be mocking religions, it may very well be the developers using something they know and modifying it to fit the story.

If anything I think this is simply a case of people trying to dig too deep to find something that isn't really there. That's just my opinion though. And I could be totally wrong, and if that's the case, then hey, whatever, I'll still love Final Fantasy.
 
lionheartcs said:
XIII- Haven't played it yet. But I can almost guarantee I can guess the ending. The heroes destroy a god and give power back to mankind. Amirite?
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You're pretty correct. It kind of even gets more specific than that.
 
bearsfwd said:
Personally, here is how I feel.

Should you be offended? No
Am I offended? No

I'm sorry, but these are games. They are made up stories. I mean, sure, maybe a religion in one of them closely resembles a real religion, but I don't think the developers sat in a room and said "you know, I think in this next Final Fantasy game, we should make a mockery out of [any religion here]."

I find it really hard to believe how anyone can be offended by fiction (where nothing in the story is in the real world, like religions). See, what South Park does is completely different from what Final Fantasy may be doing. South Park doesn't sugar coat anything and they blatantly go out of their way to poke fun at ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. Final Fantasy, if they really do mock real religions, at least put effort into making their religious aspects look original.
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I agree with this, and the other parts I cut off that you wrote.

This is yet another case of linking the religions in our world to the imaginary world of Final Fantasy, a case of fact and fiction.

If you want to make an assumption that a religion in the FF world is one that exists in our world (the Catholic link in Tactics is certainly one that can lead to people thinking this way) then sure, some people of this religion might take offence to it, but these people will most likely take offence to most other fictional stories that have religious links.

The game in general does have many religious issues, but to consider them to be offensive is slightly thinking too far ahead IMO. FF does make a lot of things unclear and they leave it to us to make up our own minds, but that doesn't necessarily make our assumptions the facts; they're just thoughts and opinions and they can't be used as any evidence.

WanderingAesthetic said:
In the Japanese version, Sin is called Shin, death.
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Not really, the Japanese symbol for 'Shi' is what we use if we want to write 'si', so Shin=Sin. Plus Shin is not Death, it's Shi. If you want to translate it literally then Shin means New, but we don't do it here since Sin is written in katakana; the alphabet used for writing un-Japanese or uncommon names or objects. The name is just taken from the word sin. Sorry for being so nosy, but I just wanted to avoid any confusion out there.
 
Should a martial artist feel offended that Tifa throws a dolphin at monsters? Should gunmen be offended that Balthier never seems to run out of bullets? Should the Pope be offended that Yuna turns against her faith?

Fuck off, it's a fantasy game, totally imaginary and any mirroring of real life is simply because it's made by people who take inspiration from reality and twist it in to fantasy. It's not real and it's enjoyable - you should not be taking offense, religious or otherwise.
 
VinnieJones said:
Not really, the Japanese symbol for 'Shi' is what we use if we want to write 'si', so Shin=Sin. Plus Shin is not Death, it's Shi. If you want to translate it literally then Shin means New, but we don't do it here since Sin is written in katakana; the alphabet used for writing un-Japanese or uncommon names or objects. The name is just taken from the word sin. Sorry for being so nosy, but I just wanted to avoid any confusion out there.
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Blah, sorry, I was misinformed. (And thanks for correcting me, honestly.) But looking at an online dictionary I see the word also has meanings like faith, trust, and core, which are all kind of interesting as well... But I dunno, I know next to nothing about Japanese.

Fuck off, it's a fantasy game, totally imaginary and any mirroring of real life is simply because it's made by people who take inspiration from reality and twist it in to fantasy. It's not real and it's enjoyable - you should not be taking offense, religious or otherwise.
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Saying things like this implies a fantasy story can't have any bearing on real life, and that's just not true. They can still be about human nature and they can still make meaningful parallels with the real world.

You can also say Final Fantasy's primary objective is to entertain, and yeah, that's true, but that doesn't mean the creators can't make a point while they're at it.

Do I think anyone should be offended? No. It's a criticism of a fake religion based on a fake god. Obviously if you adhere to a religion you don't think your god is an evil space flea.

I think parallels could be made, but that doesn't mean you have to make those parallels. This is why art is fun.
 
If you take offense then you are way to sensitive.

If a video game who has a pseudo-religion with aspects that are similar to yours offends you, then you & your religion need to get over yourselves.

Religions make sense to use as institutions in heroic or epic fiction because of the properties they have, one of which is people (blindly) following the leaders. So it is easy to make heros the underdogs by going up against powerful institutions for example in ff12 it was not a religion but a powerful institution, an empire.

What is wrong with some criticism of religion anyway? Why should religions be exempt from it?

Ever read any greek or roman mythology? There heros were always fighting and beating gods, it is just a part of fiction and has been going on since epics were passed down in verse.
 
A good portion of things mentioned in Final Fantasy games seems to be based on some real religion or custom. So when certain basises act in certain ways, it makes you think the developer is delivering a bit of an anti-religious message. For example, when Fang was held up by the arms and "tortured" in XIII, I thought they were trying to mimmic a Jesus theme. Situations like that kind of expand on a fictional story. It becomes more of an allegory.
 
You know, if you are religious, that just makes setting up a false religion or using religious institutions for evil all the more vile. And it's always the bad guys who are doing that. Therefore... nah, no reason to be offended.
 
When the geniuses behind the FFT storyline threw together a plot, for their villainous religion they put together a church with a basic mythology, hierarchy, and organization which blatantly and explicitly resembles one and only one religious institution. They might as well have gone the full ten yards and just called it the Catholic Church; they weren't fooling anyone. They then go on to explicitly state in the game that this institution in fact worships a demon, and is evil from its god on down.

And we wonder why this is so offensive.
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Why do they always have temples for healing in medieval Japanese RPGs? They might as well just come out and call it a church, because they are clearly trying to alienate and offend all of their atheist players. The geniuses behind these games even say that these places are "sacred" and "holy" and capable of magical healing, which blatantly and explicitly resembles only one generic social institution. They might as well have gone the full ten yards and just called it the Death to the Heathens Torture Chamber; they weren't fooling anyone. They then go on to feature villains who unanimously are never seen frequenting these temples, and are often battled with religiously-charged spell titles like "Holy" and "Raise", clearly implying that atheists are evil from their leadership on down.

And we wonder why this is so offensive.
 
WanderingAesthetic said:
You know, if you are religious, that just makes setting up a false religion or using religious institutions for evil all the more vile. And it's always the bad guys who are doing that. Therefore... nah, no reason to be offended.
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Sure, if the villains are wrong. But something which I've noticed is that the villains in FF games generally have the truth and "correct" way of doing things... yet somehow, the characters still have to defeat them just because the villains are more corrupt than them and have worse attitudes.
 
This is why so many games get censored, because people are way too sensitive and start looking into things too deeply. At the end of the day, it's a game, nothing more and nothing less. I doubt there's any intentional mockery in there, and if there is, who cares? It's like going back to Resident Evil 5 where minorities started saying it was racist because the zombies were black... when it was set in Africa. Just play the game for what it is, and not for what it isn't.
 
The fact is that religion is often a defining point in many stories. It's not created to mirror or offend the existing, real world religions. It's created to be a powerful and influential force on the world. Devout religious believers and zealots can make for interesting characters, and these character archetypes need a religion to base their character on. Hence the creation of Yevon and Seymour, to cite an example.

Besides that, it isn't always religion that takes this role. The Shinra Company, Queen Brahne/Kuja. Archadia, the Sanctum. Religion is just one of many things that can be used in this space.

It isn't even given a major role all the time. The Kiltias in FFXII, for example, were created to be a kind, compassionate religious group, and there was widespread mourning and a feeling of desolation when
Bergan killed the Gran Kiltias, pretty much the equivalent to the Pope.
 
I never realized this before but the amount of times man have fought and defeated a god to give power back to man is interesting. I don't think Final Fantasy is the first one to do this but it's still pretty interesting, especially the FFX points. I'm not offended by it because at the end of the day it's a fictional story meant to be entertaining. It's going to take a lot more than a work of fiction taking shots at my Religion to get me upset.
 
Well, I personally don't feel as if the theme of religion - in the context of FF - should be regarded as offensive in the first place. The thing about any type of media - and any form of entertainment - is that there has to be a conflict. And by introducing religion into it... well, that's just one way of creating a conflict between two opposing parties. But, then again, I tend to be a bit more open-minded when it comes to issues like these, so...
 
I don't think anyone should be offended by the FF's topic of religion because religion is mainly used in most story lines now and plots. Besides, they're just video games, what's there to be offended about? Religion has basically become apart of fiction now because "Gods" are portrayed as challenges for people; especially evil Gods. This tradition has been around for many years.
 
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