FFX: Love It or Hate It?

Love it or hate it?


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Sheechiibii

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Except that it's completely different and I have no idea how you managed to compare the two. Sin is the main villain. Sure, it's controlled by someone from inside of it, etc., but it's Sin they wanted and needed to defeat - whether that's by kicking the monster's ass itself or by destroying the one controlling the monster doesn't change anything. Edea, however, was just the first boss. Following her defeat, the focus switched to Adel and Ultimecia.
You can't just compare the villains only because they're controlling/being controlled, when the circumstances are entirely different. If Edea was actually the final boss, albeit controlled by Ultimecia, then the comparison to Sin could be made.

Nah, Seymour is the main villain, Sin is a part of the world and the lore and a large part of the reason for why the story progresses the way it does, akin to Jenova in FFVII or Garland in FFIX. Edea is controlled by someone inside her, she's also the first real threat you meet but that doesn't make her the main villain does it? Being the final boss doesn't mean they're the main villain either. Necron was the final boss in FFIX but he was in no way the main villain of the game.
 

Sheechiibii

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Is Sephiroth not the main villain? Is Kuja not the main villain? They are to VII and IX what Seymour is to X.
 
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HLEV

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Sephiroth is the main villain. I have no idea who Kuja is. Seymour is not the main villain, just a normal villain who keeps re-appearing on the journey to defeat the main villain.
 

Sheechiibii

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How is Sephiroth different from Seymour? Sin fills a similar role to Jenova, in that they are both driving the plot forward and are the force that the heroes are trying to defeat. They are a part of the worlds lore rather than a character designed to be the main antagonist for the party.
 

HLEV

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The difference is that Sephiroth was the main villain and Seymour wasn't. They were going after Sin, not Seymour. Seymour was just a Sin wannabe who got defeated multiple times and it changed nothing: they were still going after the main threat: Sin.
 

Sheechiibii

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Sephiroth was not the main threat in FFVII, Jenova was, just like Sin was in X. Sephiroth tried to stop them, just like Seymour did in X. The main antagonist in a story is the one who tries to stop the party from fulfilling their goal, and that is what Seymour does. In FFVII the main goal is to stop Jenova, and Sephiroth is the main antagonist trying to stop them succeeding. In FFX the main goal is to stop Sin, and Seymour is the main antagonist trying to stop them succeeding.
 

HLEV

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Jenova is the main FF7 villain? Holy shit. You do realize that Jenova died 2000 years ago and Sephiroth used it (its body) for his own ends, right? Do some research, seriously.

Sin itself is a monster. It's commanded by Yu Yevon, but it's the monster that deals damage. The whole point was to defeat that monster. In the end they also defeated Yu Yevon so another Sin wouldn't appear. It's all about Sin. Seymour? Sure, he got in the way, but that in no way makes him the main villain and you are very wrong to think it does.
 

Sheechiibii

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I feel like you're not reading what I'm writing at all. I never said Jenova was the main FFVII villain, I said Sephiroth was(like Seymour), but Jenova (like Sin) is the main threat to the world.

Jenova is not dead, I think you're the one who needs to do more research into this game, especially since you said it's story was better yet you seem to have missed a huge part of the story (and what makes it so complex which is what you said made it superior to X). Sephiroth is basically Jenova's puppet, most of the game is Jenova manipulating everything that happens. And Sephiroth is hibernating in the life stream waiting for his chance.

Sephiroth is the main villain, because he's the one who goes up against the party trying to stop them, but he's not the main threat to the world. The same way Seymour is the main villain, but he's not the main threat to the world either.
 
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HLEV

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Jenova is dead, but not in the sense that its body is no longer operational. Its cells still influence (but far from control) the ones infected with, but Jenova's primary mind is dead since Cetra defeated it. Basically it can no longer be a threat to the Planet on its own, and is thus stuck in hibernation. It's Sephiroth who took full control of Jenova's body while being in the Lifestream, awakening it from sleep to do his bidding. You seem to have missed that entirely. Replay the game, perhaps? Reading a decent synopsis may do as well (I've seen one in the FF7 section of this very forum).

Back to the point. You may try to and succeed in relating things between FF titles, such as controlling/being in control of someone, but again, the circumstances are entirely different and you still have to point out how anything you wrote is relevant to what I initially wrote about FF10.

Regarding Seymour, he is most definitely not the main villain and your arguments to the contrary are quite ridiculous to say the least. Well, since you obviously didn't understand FF7, I don't think I would be too far off by saying you didn't understand FF10 neither. I know I sound rude, can't do nothing about it, but the points you provided leave me with that kind of impression.
 

Sheechiibii

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You say I'm the one who doesn't understand FFVII, yet something as well known as Jenova's role in the plot is something you seem to have misunderstood. It's one of the biggest twists of the story, and you failed to understand it properly. You should really check out this thread it's a breakdown of the FFVII plot, and I think you should read it to fully understand Jenova (and Sephiroth's) role in the story. You'll probably understand what I've been saying by comparing Sin to Jenova and Sephiroth to Seymour once you have a clearer understanding of FFVII's story. Jenova is the reason everything in the story happens, just like Sin is the reason everything in the story happens.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with a character being controlled or not. It's about the principles of storytelling and what makes a main antagonist the main antagonist. There are often multiple enemies in a story, and what makes a character the main villain is them being the one to antagonise the party the most, the one who gets in their way and hurts them personally. Sin and Jenova are the same type of enemy because they are the forces that the party are trying to stop, they are the end goal. Sephiroth and Seymour are the ones who the party hates on a personal level because they cause suffering to the characters and get in the way of them fulfilling their goal.

You can call my arguments ridiculous, but you haven't actually provided any argument at all to contend with anything I've said, all you do is keep repeating 'Seymour's not the main villain' despite how much evidence I've given to show you he is. Maybe if you could provide a reason for why you think Sin is the main villain then you'd be able to call my reasoning ridiculous. Because so far I'm the only one who actually has shown any reasoning at all.
 

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I think I do sympathise more with Sheechiibii's stance on Seymour as the main villain than Sin being the villain.

Sin's unparallelled primacy in the world and how it drives the storyline most certainly makes it LIKE a big bad-like entity - Yu Yevon by extension as the bigger bad, going by TV Tropes logic - but they lack the conscious intent of their actions as Seymour does. Sin seems more like a feral, tragic force of nature rather than something I can comfortably semantically label with certainty a "villain".

One's idea of what constitutes a "main villain" will wary.
 

Sheechiibii

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Also HLEV, what you said about Tidus being an idiot for not questioning Auron. I think that's unfair to his character, he did question Auron about a lot of things, but Auron wasn't forthcoming with the answers. It's not Tidus' fault Auron wouldn't tell them anything.
 

HLEV

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You should really check out this thread it's a breakdown of the FFVII plot, and I think you should read it to fully understand Jenova (and Sephiroth's) role in the story.
Oh, that's the thread I was talking about. I suggest you read it. Besides the idea that Sephiroth had no control whatsoever over Cloud and Sephiroth's Clones, which I don't particulary agree with, everything is broken down quite well there.

There are often multiple enemies in a story, and what makes a character the main villain is them being the one to antagonise the party the most, the one who gets in their way and hurts them personally.
So, the one who gets in the way the most is labeled the main villain? I can't agree with that because defeating Sin is what the game is all about. Again, Seymour only gets in the way, and even after his final defeat, the game still remains all about defeating Sin, which is what the cast do in the end.

Sin and Jenova are the same type of enemy because they are the forces that the party are trying to stop, they are the end goal. Sephiroth and Seymour are the ones who the party hates on a personal level because they cause suffering to the characters and get in the way of them fulfilling their goal.
In FF7, they're not going after Jenova, they're going after Sephiroth. Sephiroth may be in control of Jenova, but Sephiroth is the main threat/antagonist/villain and it's him that needs to be defeated. They don't fight Sephiroth to defeat Jenova, they fight Sephiroth to defeat Sephiroth (or at least that's the main purpose, as getting rid of Jenova in the process doesn't hurt).
In FF10, they're going after Sin, because that's the main threat of the world. Seymour gets in the way and they defeat him to continue towards their main objective, the main villain. They fight Yu Yevon so Sin would disappear and never reappear.

Also HLEV, what you said about Tidus being an idiot for not questioning Auron. I think that's unfair to his character, he did question Auron about a lot of things, but Auron wasn't forthcoming with the answers. It's not Tidus' fault Auron wouldn't tell them anything.
Auron told something vague and Tidus just fucked off, without trying to get more information.
 

Sheechiibii

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If you've read the thread then you should know what I mean, I'm unsure how you've yet to comprehend how Sin and Jenova are similar villains. Both are the biggest threats to the world, neither of the stories would occur without them. While Sephiroth and Seymour are the main antagonists, the ones who are actively trying to hurt the party/world, Sin and Jenova are forces, part of the lore, that are bad for the world in general and would be dangerous whether the main villain existed or not.

Without Jenova there is no threat to the planet, Sephiroth is a disembodied mind in the life stream who has no power at all without Jenova. Same as Seymour, who wants to use Sin to kill, Sephiroth must use Jenova. Seymour deliberately massacres a whole race of people, one of which is a member of your party, and Sephiroth murders a party member. These are things that main antagonists do. The party has no personal feelings towards Sin, just like there are no personal feelings towards Jenova. It's just something powerful and harmful that needs to be stopped.

Tidus asked Auron for information multiple times, and each time Auron just blew him off, laughed or told him it was his story and he'd have to see for himself.
 

HLEV

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If you've read the thread then you should know what I mean, I'm unsure how you've yet to comprehend how Sin and Jenova are similar villains.
Sin and Jenova are similar in the sense that they're being controlled. With that in mind, I would accept the opinion that Yu Yevon is the main villain. However in one game, it's the controller (Sephiroth) the cast is after while in the other, the controlled (Sin). Again, in FF7, the cast cares little for Jenova and seek to destroy Sephiroth, without whom Jenova would go into the "dead" mode again. In FF10, they're after Sin; even after they figure out that Sin is being controlled, they defeat Yu Yevon as a means to remove Sin from existance. It's the opposite in FF7; they defeat Sephiroth to remove Sephiroth from existance (unsuccessfully), not Jenova. Basically in both games the casts are after certain someone: Sephiroth and Sin respectively. Since this never changes throughout the games, it is fair to label Sephiroth and Sin as their respective games' main villains.

Both are the biggest threats to the world, neither of the stories would occur without them. While Sephiroth and Seymour are the main antagonists, the ones who are actively trying to hurt the party/world, Sin and Jenova are forces, part of the lore, that are bad for the world in general and would be dangerous whether the main villain existed or not.
Again you are wrong. In FF7, the cast fight Sephiroth (in Jenova's body) on many occasions, but Sephiroth remains the main villain till the very end. In FF10, Seymour just blocks the way to Sin. Pretty different, if you ask me. Sephiroth is not the main villain because he's fought throughout the game, he's the main villain because he's the main force of evil the cast is after throughout the game. Same goes to Sin, but doesn't go to Seymour.

Without Jenova there is no threat to the planet, Sephiroth is a disembodied mind in the life stream who has no power at all without Jenova.
See, if the cast was after Jenova, then Jenova could be considered the main villain. But Jenova is just a tool for Sephiroth to become godlike, and the cast doesn't want that.

Same as Seymour, who wants to use Sin to kill, Sephiroth must use Jenova. Seymour deliberately massacres a whole race of people, one of which is a member of your party, and Sephiroth murders a party member. These are things that main antagonists do. The party has no personal feelings towards Sin, just like there are no personal feelings towards Jenova. It's just something powerful and harmful that needs to be stopped.
Symour never becomes such an entity that would be worthy of being called the main villain. Getting in the way is all he ever did, really. Had Seymour never existed, Sin would be the main villain. Seymour exists and gets in the way, Sin is still the main villain. He's just a plot device to keep the story interesting until the final confrontation with the main thing.

Tidus asked Auron for information multiple times, and each time Auron just blew him off, laughed or told him it was his story and he'd have to see for himself.
Auron hesitated to answer a few questions about specific things, but, having heard the English dialogues at least, I was far from convinced that Auron wouldn't answer other questions. Could be just me, I guess, but I sure as hell would've asked how the hell did I end up 1,000 years into the future, how is Auron and my father known here for 10 years, and how do I go back to my world. Tidus did seem quite concerned about these things at times, yet didn't bother to ask. Either because he's just stupid or didn't think he'd get answers from Auron, which makes him stupid for not even trying.
 

Sheechiibii

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You clearly have a very different interpretation of what a main antagonist is than most people. Seymour is pretty much always considered to be the main antagonist of the game. On the wiki page, Sin isn't even listed in the list of antagonists Final Fantasy. On both the FF antagonist page and Seymour's page he is described as the main antagonist of the game. Both Jenova and Sin are only labeled as major antagonists.

Sin has no intentions, it doesn't kill people because it wants to, it doesn't have any desires. Same as Jenova no longer has any intentions or desires. That is not what most people would consider a main villain, that is just a weapon and a part of the lore of the world. The main villain is the character that antagonises the party the most, the one who actively works against them and whose goals are in contrast to theirs. Yu Yevon also has no intent, no desires, it has no goals either.

Auron did tell Tidus how he ended up in Spira and about how he was Yuna's dad's guardian. He told him when Tidus first found him again in Luca.
 

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Auron did tell Tidus how he ended up in Spira and about how he was Yuna's dad's guardian. He told him when Tidus first found him again in Luca.

He was a warrior monk in Bevelle, who fell out of favour with the Yevon elite after refusing to marry the daughter of a high-ranking clergyman. Wen Kinoc took his place, and eventually became a Maester. Braska took the then-exiled Auron as a Guardian. Auron didn't just one day turn up like Jecht and Tidus did. He must have been born in Spira, probably even in Bevelle itself, as it's mentioned that he was groomed for a high-ranking position within the clergy. I can't see a high-ranking member of the Yevon elite offering his daughter's hand to a foreign warrior with a shady past, can you?
 

HLEV

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@Sheechiibii, essentially what you're saying is that had there been no Seymour, FFX wouldn't even have a main villain. Is that right? Because Sin or Yu Yevon don't count?

A: Hey guys, let's make a game where a huge ass monster, controlled by some evil force from inside of it, is mindlessly going on a rampage, killing everyone!
B: Um... OK, but who's the main villain?
A: Huh? Either the huge monster or the one controlling it, obviously. Or both as a whole.
B: Main villains don't work that way!
A: Oh, well, then we can bring in some random dude who gets in the cast's way of defeating the huge monster and the one controlling it. Surely he can work as the main villain?
B: Yup, that totally works.

Sorry, I just can't express how ridiculous this premise is without being sarcastic. Sin, Yu Yevon and Seymour all match the description of villain and antagonist just fine, but the main one in FFX is most definitely not Seymour and I have yet to see a valid argument for why he is.
 

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Guys, the argument is going off-topic. Please continue it via PMs.

Thank you. Please do not reply to this post. Any questions or concern, PM me. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted.
 
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