Do you need God to be moral?

No, there is such a thing as absolute morality. It's just that nobody can get it right because pure morality is highly complex in relevance to the general idea of right and wrong.
We are too imperfect as people to have the logic, as we practice immorality everyday. Simply by flushing the toilet or taking a 20 minute shower, you are contributing to the immorality of millions of people around the world without water.
Self-importance makes the world go around, not morals.

This, while I do believe with Darquewillow's sentiments about not needing a God to be moral, I have to say morality at best is a highly complex term. We have set a societal limit on what exactly is immoral and what is universally accepted as moral through what we call "laws." Stripping it directly from the religious texts we have: 'don't kill,' 'don't steal,' 'don't covet another man's objects/wife/girlfriend/ friend/ etc.,' 'do not cheat,' etc.

Essentially organized religion, particularly Christianity, I've found (sorry if I offend any highly religious Christians) has its own reward system. You have a reward and a punishment for every transgression you commit and for every good deed you commit. So if you were to give a homeless man the clothes off of your back that would make you morally correct, for you have a done good deed. Tally that up over your lifetime and you will, according to the Bible, find yourself at Heaven's Gate. It's a highly, in my opinion, flawed system because the morals of a person can vary greatly depending on the way their life choices shaped them.

So this brings me back up to my earlier example: What if you were that homeless man and you had no money, no food, and no clothing? What if you had to scavenge around in garbage cans, eating the scraps of food that thousands and millions of people discarded so carelessly? What if you were dying from some sickness, had no health insurance, no job, and you had to resort to stealing medication just to live? By society's limited standards on morality, stealing would be seen as immoral. But as a poor man just trying to get by, you would see this as morally acceptable because it's a matter of survival. Certainly you wouldn't want to steal, at some point you may have had a job and money and somewhere along the course of your life you may have lost it. The difficulties of society may have pushed you into committing something you may not have wanted to do: steal medicine for yourself or a dying relative because you severely lacked the funds to get it.

In situations such as this and many others, the definitive meaning of morality is questioned.

But humans, particularly religious ones must feel the need to complete a moral deed for some sort of reward. Getting into heaven or depending on a higher and ultimately more intelligent deity makes us more comfortable doing something that is considered selfless. Doing something immoral such as lying, stealing, cheating, killing, etc. will supposedly get you into Hell.

And yet, we as human beings have a wonderful ability to embrace Free will. We can do as we please, if we struggle to survive then we can live off of instinct: smuggling food, searching ceaselessly for a job to earn monetary funds to thrive. We can put our mothers and fathers in nursing homes, having the state's taxes fund for their care, or we can take up the burden upon ourselves. We can choose to steal food that we never bought with our own money that was thrown away to get a meal or we can struggle to find a job to make ends meet.

What we find to be moral is a perplexing thing because this depends upon the individual. As a child, your parents may or may not have taken you to Church and what you learned to be morally acceptable and immoral would have come to you from the mouth of a preacher and from a Holy Bible or the Quran or the Torah or some other form of a religious text. And yet as, Jquestionmark said, as you mature and view the hardships of other people: relatives, friends, strangers on the street, as well as the difficulties you face in your own life, your view of morality will be reshaped.

I personally believe that morality should not be determined by what you read in religious book but should be defined by what you as an individual perceive it to be. I give the clothes off of my back to children suffering from Lupus because I choose to, not for some petty reward or recognition. I neither expect a pat on the back of a "good job" from someone who knows this obscure fact about me, because regardless of what they think it's something I want to do, that I feel obligated to do. If I donate blood to someone it's because I want to, because the moral for me is a positive one.

I'm partly a follower of what society dictates as immoral and moral and yet I feel that if you are poor and you have no other choices granted to you, then sleep on a public bench, scavenge for food, beg for money, do what you must to survive. Your morals are your morals and so not only is it complex, broad, and transient in its definition, but it also can not and should not be adamantly restricted to what society and its laws govern.
 
No, there is such a thing as absolute morality. It's just that nobody can get it right because pure morality is highly complex in relevance to the general idea of right and wrong.
We are too imperfect as people to have the logic, as we practice immorality everyday. Simply by flushing the toilet or taking a 20 minute shower, you are contributing to the immorality of millions of people around the world without water.
Self-importance makes the world go around, not morals.

How can a socially/individually defined construct have an absolute version? I can see the concept of some perfect option where your actions only contribute positively and never detract, but I can't imagine a scenario where that would be more than a concept.

Absolute morality, like all morality, is an idea, not a thing. Actions are actions, nothing more and nothing less, and your moral view of them is only personal opinion.
 
Absolute morality, like all morality, is an idea, not a thing. Actions are actions, nothing more and nothing less, and your moral view of them is only personal opinion.

Semantics.. is a word I've been using a lot lately, and for good reason. Morality is a perfect example.
Morality is not based on any majority or standard of man. The fact that we try to make it that way is what produces different opinions on it. For every law or moral construct, there are people who benefit from it and others who get shit on by it.
Therefore, there is high morality. We just don't have the ability as a whole to attain it.
Morality by definition is cause or concern for the good of others. You either have a lot, some, or none. The whole world could say murder is morally just. That does not make them moral.
 
Morality by definition is cause or concern for the good of others. You either have a lot, some, or none. The whole world could say murder is morally just. That does not make them moral.

I'm sorry, but I can't find anywhere that defines morality as that. All of the sources I'm seeing define morality as a code set forward by society. Here's an example: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/ .

If a whole world says that murder is morally just, then by their moral code, it is. It isn't by ours, but ours is only our opinion on the topic of morality, and not the absolute. Because we think murder is bad, and our major world religions portray murder as bad, does not make it bad in any "absolute" sense.

Disclaimer: I do think murder is bad. Just talking in a purely philosophical sense.
 
Concern for the good of others. If morals are what society thinks is right, is it not for the good of others? The last time I checked, society consists of more than one person, and therefore it's for the good of all.
If high morality doesn't exist, how is morality qualified? It's by how good or bad it is.
Henceforth, if you have low morality, you are bad. If you have high morality, you are good.

I looked up the definition, and found that technically, you are right as far as standards of man,, with that specific definition. It is viewed differently by other authors, obviously.
The standards of man will never be to do bad upon itself as a whole. The entire world has an affinity for life, and that will never change. Just because the Al Queda bombs shit doesn't mean they don't have an affinity for life, they just go about it through low morality to achieve high morality.
So accordingly, high morality does exist, it just cannot be attained with conflicting views. These views are affected by their current morality they face. America has good and bad morals. The Al Queda did not bomb America for their good morals.
Are you starting to get the picture?
That's why I said that morality is a perfect example of ridiculous semantics. The 'meaning' contradicts itself with literal and opinionated definition.
 
Last edited:
If morals are what society thinks is right, is it not for the good of others? The last time I checked, society consists of more than one person, and therefore it's for the good of all.
If high morality doesn't exist, how is morality qualified? It's by how good or bad it is.

What a society thinks is right is simply the things it thinks is right, the good of others is optionally involved. Generally, it's for the good of all, but that's not guaranteed. Even then, by that definition, torturing prisoners of war in any manner is acceptable and moral, because the information might benefit the greater good.

America has good and bad morals.

America only has American morals. If they are good or bad is only the perception of the individual and not an actual measurement that can be objectively applied to American morals.

The picture I'm getting is that you think there is an absolute value for good or bad, right or wrong (which is totally cool - I don't agree, but I like the idea). If I'm off on that, let me know - I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Also, another disclaimer: I'm sure we all already know this, but I just want to clarify because I don't know any of you that well yet - I'm not getting upset, and I'm certainly not trying to make anyone upset. I just love the heat of debate and get a bit wrapped up in it, so if I'm coming across as a dick and not just stubborn, please, please let me know (publicly or PM, I promise I won't take offense regardless). I would be very sad if everyone agreed with me, because then I'd have no one to debate. So keep fighting for your side, and I'll keep fighting for mine, and lets have some fun while we do it.
 
America only has American morals. If they are good or bad is only the perception of the individual and not an actual measurement that can be objectively applied to American morals.

The picture I'm getting is that you think there is an absolute value for good or bad, right or wrong (which is totally cool - I don't agree, but I like the idea). If I'm off on that, let me know - I don't want to put words in your mouth.

There is an absolute value of good and bad. Otherwise, the word moral would not exist. In fact, morality defines a non-existent construct of human belief, only to be exemplified by good or bad.
We as a species search for absolute morality, but try to achieve it in the wrong ways. This is how religion and twisted law become realities for many people.
For example, God telling the Israelites to stone anyone to death for using His name in vain seems immoral. But in the big picture, it can be viewed as being fair. Words can mar an entire civilization.
that's just scratching the surface on the complexities of high morality. I'm not arguing biblical concept, I'm just trying to say that absolute morality cannot be obtained by normal people because self-importance takes over.
Here's another example: Democracy seems to be the most morally justified form of government. But with democracy comes a lot of grief and death, greed, etc. that is avoided by communism. Which one is fair? We can't fathom it because self-importance takes over.
Self-importance is a bad moral because it does no good for you in the long run. You will dig your own grave if taken too far. Look at the Nazis...
If you are suicidal, you have no morals towards yourself because you are not doing yourself good. Good=life. bad=death. You will not find evidence that goes against that in any dark corner of the planet.
Therefore, as I said before, morality defines a non-existent construct of human belief, only to be exemplified by good or bad.
 
Let's put aside God for a second.

Let's say you believe there is no absolute morality. "Right" and "Wrong" are subjective to individuals. This is an interesting concept, but in practice I would bet you act like there is an absolute morality.

Let me give you an example:
You go to the store and buy a soda. You come home, stick the soda in the fridge so it gets cold, and walk away. A few hours later, you come to the fridge to get your soda. You see me open the fridge, see the soda, and pull it out and drink it. In this situation, would you:
A) Claim the soda as your own and demand it back/demand to be repaid
or
B) Acknowledge that stealing for me is not wrong and accept that the soda is no longer yours?

If you chose A, you believe in a higher morality. The soda, by all accounts, is yours and you should be repaid. You paid for it, I took it without asking...I am in the wrong.

If you chose B, why? You paid for the soda. It is YOUR soda. Even if you allow me to have it, it's still not right for me to have it. You must forgive me in your mind, even if you don't out loud, or you'll make excuses on my behalf, like "He needed it more than me" or "I don't need the caffeine."

Now, many people will argue that right and wrong are situational. And this is true. What is right and what is wrong will very much depend on the situation. HOWEVER, just because you THINK you know what is right or wrong in any given situation doesn't mean this is the truth. This is where most people disagree. Many will say, because the truth is situational, there is no absolute right and wrong. Others will say we just don't know the right and wrong.

Now where does God play into this? He claims to be the absolute. He claims to know the right and wrong in every situation. The Bible explicitly tells Christians to rely on God and not on their own judgements. We can't possibly, as a flawed, human species, be expected to know the right and wrong of any given situation. What we ARE expected to do is pray about the situation, then fully trust God. Whatever the outcome afterward, should you pray and trust God, is not your fault. That is on God. You put faith in him, and if it is the wrong outcome, he will be responsible for it.

Honestly, it is worthless discussing morality unless you concede in the possibility of a being with perfect morality. Without God, morality doesn't matter, as there is no one to hold you to any standard. If I took your soda, you have absolutely no claim on the soda if God hadn't first said "Do not steal." Because stealing is wrong in this situation, I am also wrong and should be held accountable.

Otherwise, without God, who's to say I can't take the soda? Who's to say I can't kill you for it? Society? Funny you should say that, because our societies run off a system of absolutes.

"But my father taught me my morals" And who taught him his? His father. and his father. and his father. and his father. and so on and so on until you reach the first man. Who was taught by...God.
 
Let's put aside God for a second.


A) Claim the soda as your own and demand it back/demand to be repaid
or
B) Acknowledge that stealing for me is not wrong and accept that the soda is no longer yours?

Or, option C: I let you take the soda, because you're a friend. I'm not that greedy of a guy. Shit, just take it, no problems here.


Honestly, it is worthless discussing morality unless you concede in the possibility of a being with perfect morality.
Only, that's wrong. No being exists.

Without God, morality doesn't matter, as there is no one to hold you to any standard.
Sure there is. Other people will hold you to standards as set up by them. Everyone has the same general idea on what's right and wrong. No one needs a "higher power" to tell them this.

If I took your soda, you have absolutely no claim on the soda if God hadn't first said "Do not steal."

Because without a "god" telling us, we'd all be running around naked, killing, pillaging, and plundering, right?

Because stealing is wrong in this situation, I am also wrong and should be held accountable.

Negative: Stealing is wrong period. As I said before, no one had to tell us this. It's common sense, taking something that belongs to another man, is clearly wrong.

Otherwise, without God, who's to say I can't take the soda?

Me. It's my damn soda. Same for my TV, my computer, ect.

Who's to say I can't kill you for it? Society? Funny you should say that, because our societies run off a system of absolutes.

Not society, me, and your own common sense. Regardless to what you may believe, you don't need a God to be moral, because morality is based on common sense, and an elementary definition of right and wrong.

"But my father taught me my morals" And who taught him his? His father. and his father. and his father. and his father. and so on and so on until you reach the first man. Who was taught by...God.

Negative: A man doesn't have to be taught morals by another man. A man can learn his own morals. It's not difficult, not in the slightest.

Let's say that two cavemen are living near each other. Caveman A just took Caveman B's club. Caveman B is angry, and takes it back. Caveman A, just learned that taking things without asking prompts a negative response.

It's logic.

I stick to my original thought, you don't need a god to be moral.
 
Sum1sgruj, just a tip of the hat to you, before I move on to lionheartcs' post - while I still disagree that there is absolute anything regarding morality - by your definitions, your logic is solid. The only thing I could really do at this point is argue with the way you're defining good and bad, and that would just take us in circles (moreso than we've already been doing). Just didn't want you to think I'm ignoring you before I continue.

Well, Darquewillow said just about everything I intended to in regards to lionheartcs' post, but there are a couple things I want to touch on.

If you chose B, why? You paid for the soda. It is YOUR soda. Even if you allow me to have it, it's still not right for me to have it. You must forgive me in your mind, even if you don't out loud, or you'll make excuses on my behalf, like "He needed it more than me" or "I don't need the caffeine."

In this case, possession is a socially defined construct. The only reason we consider this wrong is because we have established the idea of personal possessions. It is not wrong to take it in any absolute way, only in a way that we have defined.

What we ARE expected to do is pray about the situation, then fully trust God. Whatever the outcome afterward, should you pray and trust God, is not your fault. That is on God. You put faith in him, and if it is the wrong outcome, he will be responsible for it.
This, by my definition of morality is downright immoral. We are responsible for our own actions, not some potentially imaginary creature. You decide what moral code to follow, and if that's the Bible, and what you do based on its advice turns out to be terrible, that was YOUR decision. God didn't mess that up, just you.

Honestly, it is worthless discussing morality unless you concede in the possibility of a being with perfect morality. Without God, morality doesn't matter, as there is no one to hold you to any standard.
Without a being with "perfect morality" it is even more important that we talk about morality. We define morality, and it's important that we're all on the same page.

"But my father taught me my morals" And who taught him his? His father. and his father. and his father. and his father. and so on and so on until you reach the first man. Who was taught by...God.
Yes, my father taught me morals. Do I still follow those to the letter? Hell no. I've learned/experienced a lot since then, and I decided on my own moral code. For me, stealing isn't wrong because some guy wrote down that it was and attributed the quote to a made up divine being, it's wrong because I have possessions, and I know that it sucks to have them taken. I happen to like not making things suck for other people.
 
No you don't need a god to be moral. There are tons of moral people who don't believe in god. Do you really choose to behave "morally" because you think something is looking over your shoulder? I choose to do whats right, because its the right thing to do and that it is what I would want to be done to me if roles were reversed.
 
Believing in God gives people hope and courage...many people are too weak to stand up and maintain a balanced mind..thus some need God to be moral. We are filled with sin and without God or religion most of us will sin away..

Most atheists sin so much its unbelievable..

Yet i dont follow a religion myself..but im not atheist,...I dont know what that makes me..

"I dont believe in religion, I believe in God"

I refuse to believe anything a human being has created as the human in general is so freeking corrupted. Thats what makes us human.. many people doing wrong, but also beautiful people that are still around...

So do I need God to be moral? I dont know..I think I do..
It depends on the individual. I am not afraid to say that I am weak at times and I talk to God sometimes in myself for help etc..

Alone I cant do it..luckily I know myself all too well and I try to stop fooling myself all the time..as many people are so delusional and only see things through one perspective their own..

I respect everyone till they prove they dont deserve my respect.

tbc.
 
I have first hand experience of not needing to believe in God to be a moral person.

Im always forced to take the moral high ground in situations that my so called mates put me in. Most of the time involving petty arguments and fights between them all because of a girl or somesuch other pointless shit. -__-

So I just either put my headphones in and ignore it all, try and find out the sides of the stories or just completly distance myself from them all till they have calmed down.
 
Morality isn't something that is given to you by God or religion. Your actions determine how moral you are. Sadly, no one is truly moral. Sure everyone may do moral things from time to time, but I can almost guarantee that everyone has done some immoral things as well.

I'd love to sit here and say that I am moral. But doing so would make me look like a self-righteous asshole. But, I will admit, I always TRY to do the right thing. I'm far from religious, and I'm proud of that. I don't need some religious person telling me that I can't experience true morality, and if they ever try, I'll just tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.
 
Believing in God gives people hope and courage...many people are too weak to stand up and maintain a balanced mind..thus some need God to be moral. We are filled with sin and without God or religion most of us will sin away..
So in other words, there are some very weak atheists, and being a Christian makes you a lot stronger? Is that what you're trying to say?

Morality isn't something that is given to you by God or religion. Your actions determine how moral you are. Sadly, no one is truly moral. Sure everyone may do moral things from time to time, but I can almost guarantee that everyone has done some immoral things as well.

I'd love to sit here and say that I am moral. But doing so would make me look like a self-righteous asshole. But, I will admit, I always TRY to do the right thing. I'm far from religious, and I'm proud of that. I don't need some religious person telling me that I can't experience true morality, and if they ever try, I'll just tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.
I like most of your post but there is a slight problem.

With statements like "I always TRY to do the right thing.", you are saying that your moral compass is correct. This poses a slight problem in your statement "Sadly, no one is truly moral."
 
With statements like "I always TRY to do the right thing.", you are saying that your moral compass is correct. This poses a slight problem in your statement "Sadly, no one is truly moral."

Trying to do the right thing and actually doing the right thing are two different things. I consider myself a moral person, but I know that I'm not 100% moral. And I know that no one else on this planet is 100% moral.

I don't see how saying I'm trying to do the right thing causes a problem with the statement that no one is truly moral.

Morality is not simply black or white. It's all shades of gray. Morality isn't simply that you are moral or you aren't moral. You can do some immoral things, but still be considered a moral person.

As an example, I've downloaded music before. That's a relatively immoral thing to do (depending upon who you ask). But generally, if I find that I like the stuff that I downloaded, I will turn around and buy it. I'm not out there killing, raping, robbing banks, and whatever else there is.

When I say that no one is truly moral, I mean that no one lives their life without doing anything that is immoral in some way. If someone has, then props to them for doing it, but I find it hard to believe that someone has managed to live a perfectly moral life.
 
Trying to do the right thing and actually doing the right thing are two different things. I consider myself a moral person, but I know that I'm not 100% moral. And I know that no one else on this planet is 100% moral.
But without perfect morality, how can you judge your own morality? Obviously if for example you can only be partially moral, how do you know that you can correctly judge whether you're moral or not?

Saying that your moral may be a true statement, and I'm not debating whether you're moral or not, but however, it doesn't make any sense to say "I see myself as moral" and then argue that true morality isn't possible.
 
So in other words, there are some very weak atheists, and being a Christian makes you a lot stronger? Is that what you're trying to say?


I like most of your post but there is a slight problem.

With statements like "I always TRY to do the right thing.", you are saying that your moral compass is correct. This poses a slight problem in your statement "Sadly, no one is truly moral."

Yes..people think they are so strong, but in reality not as much as they think...

Good example: stressrelievers-cigarettes,dru &alcohol.....a true morale person wouldnt need it...those that consume it are in fact running away for their problems and are weak imo..
I drink & smoke myself btw .
If I would have so much respect for an atheist that doesnt smoke & drink etc and stayed pure and never harmed anyone etc....some need God or the devils goods...it depends...

I think bhuddas or monks is the closest one can be as a righteous person.........
 
Morality isn't something dictated by religion or faith, in my opinion. I'm not religious, but I respect the fact that other people follow their own beliefs. So long as they don't put pressure on me to see things their way, I tend to turn a blind eye.

Yet at the same time, there's a fair few religious folk out there who need to be toppled off of their high horse. It disgusts me when I see supposedly faithful people using their religion as a way to get the upper hand by deeming themselves 'pure' or 'moral' whilst deeming non-believers as 'impure' and as 'lacking morals'.
 
Yes..people think they are so strong, but in reality not as much as they think...

Good example: stressrelievers-cigarettes,dru &alcohol.....a true morale person wouldnt need it...those that consume it are in fact running away for their problems and are weak imo..
I drink & smoke myself btw .
If I would have so much respect for an atheist that doesnt smoke & drink etc and stayed pure and never harmed anyone etc....some need God or the devils goods...it depends...

I think bhuddas or monks is the closest one can be as a righteous person.........

What makes cigarettes or alcohol immoral? Even when used for stress relief, they can be used in moderation. Deciding to drink or smoke doesn't reflect on what kind of person you are, just what you like to do with your time/money (I'm not counting alcohol abuse here, since that's a whole different ball game). Most people have a stress relief method of some sort. Most people consider playing videogames to be an escapist action, trying to avoid real problems/stress. Does that make videogame players weak? And more importantly, how would the jump be made from that to playing videogames being immoral?

Personally, my religious views or lack thereof aside, I drink red wine a few nights a week (my family has an intense history of heart problems) and smoke about once a month (I have a very classy tobacco pipe, and some delicious blends, and it's a calming and peaceful activity - best done while reading a good book). Generally, I do my best not to harm others physically (okay, so I never harm others physically, but that's not exactly hard to do) or emotionally. As far as the stayed pure thing, I'm not sure what you mean. Anyways, I don't think all this makes me worthy of any kind of respect. There are people that drink and smoke excessively that I have immense respect for. There's a lot more to the equation than that.

People don't need God, they need an idea to latch on to. I do my best in life because I want to and I think it's worth my time. That idea drives me in the same way that God or fear of Hell drives others. Attributing the effort I put in to what I do to some other person/thing just seems self depreciating.

And as far as monks: hiding away in a monastery seems like trying to run from your problems to me. Instead of gaining self control by facing temptations you'd rather ignore, you lock yourself up far away from them? That sort of repression seems unhealthy. Not to mention, it seems like a morally dead life. No moral decisions to make.

One final note - sin is a religious concept, and not a moral one. A morality crafted by a religion can declare certain actions immoral, and label them as sin, but that does not make those actions immoral in other moral codes. Some actions religions consider sinful I would consider morally good. Though it's worth asking, are we talking old or new testament sin? Some of those old testament rules are just hilarious.
 
Back
Top