Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Terra Branford]

Well then if all you want to do is state opinion, you shouldn't do so in a debate thread, aka, LTD = Love triangle debate. Its not the proper thread firstly and its off topic. I think a better thread for that would be here.

A debate is well...a debate. A discussion between two (+) groups proving their side -- or trying to prove it -- as the truth/canon etc, and therein backing it and replying to posts that are directed at the others' points/evidence.

I'm sure if their argument was accurate and not interpretation or opinion, I would be glad to see it again, plagiarized or no. C:

 

[Ryotaken]

Oh. Well then my bad

Sorry for wasting you guy's time.

I'll go to that other thread now.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Jesus, I'm not here to debate, just stating opinion

I'm sorry when you say stuff like;

"We don't know who went with him on that date actually, text dosen't exemplify."

This isn't an opinionated sentence, this is you debating the fact that Aerith is the canon date, when in fact she is, Nomura himself has said so.

as well as;

Well It was on the "For The One I Love" page.
And we all know Tifa's feelings towrds Cloud.
So pretty much. That's a pretty big implication.

And c'mon, you'd be to be trying to actually deny the implications of that one page.

Again these above were not you saying "Hey, this is my opinion but~" they were you debating and making combats ;/ Okay, yeah so what Tifa has "feelings" (debatable at best thanks to CoT) for Cloud, who cares, the picture being captioned on that page is AFTER as in the next morning where they oh so coincidentally agree and have mutual feelings that; that day will never come again.

Like I said and have shown now; Aerith is the canon date and the Date between her and Cloud is shown there on that page as well along with (Terra and the Children...?), or will we ignore that? The Highwind Scene is optional as well with more than one out-come, does that nullify it being there as well?

A date which is an actual romantic scene or two people sitting on rocks agreeing on a pretty grim out-come for the rest of their days being on a page for "Love"... kind of sells it self I say.

I'm not denying anything, can't deny something that simply; isn't there.


And no Ryotaken this is a debate thread not a discussion thread; I didn't know you didn't know this or else I wouldn't have tried to debate with you. But I have to say you seem more than familiar with the FFVII Love Triangle seeing as you know of the Lifestream forums -- a pretty radical forum too so I take what any of them say with a grain of salt; so how you don't understand the term "LTD"(which is in the thread title) is strange to me...>.>

 

[Ilyena]

Bump! so discussion, links, topics and images aren't lost and so thread is always alive.

EDIT:

Also, I don't think I ever got a reply

Just so everyone is aware, bumping threads without adding anything substantial is not allowed. Thanks.

 

[Fou_Lu]

Can I still post here?

It's been made painfully clear that Cloud loves Tifa through the game, be it FFVII, AC, ACC. You don't 'stalk' a girl, trying to impress her, promised her to protect or save her if you don't like that girl.

I don't know whether this true or false, some stated that Maiden of Lifestream isn't canon. Regardless, we can ignore Aerith's feelings in this one. Doesn't matter if she loves him when it's clear that Cloud loves Tifa.

A scene in AC, when Loz and Yazoo attacked Cloud after Kadaj gone, shows Aerith pat Cloud's forehead and Cloud said, "Kaa-san." Now, I don't have the English Sub, but I do understand a little bit of Japanese. Aerith said, "Why does he always called me mom?" Then Zack, "It's good isn't it." Aerith replied, "No, I don't want son this big."

As it is, Cloud's loves for Aerith more like mother or sister. Again in AC, Cloud stated that he couldn't protect his friend nor family after Denzel got 'abducted'.

Don't forget that Cloud impersonated Zack's personality. I think that's why Aerith got a bit interested in him.

to put it short, Cloud and Aerith pairing is just a wishful thinking while Cloud and Tifa is canon.

 

[Starships]

to put it short, Cloud and Aerith pairing is just a wishful thinking while Cloud and Tifa is canon.

I don't want to be rude or anything, afterall this is a debate thread, but when did Cloti become cannon ?

Also about Cloud being a clone of Zack, this isn't exactly right.

After developing his personality by using Zack's memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud's coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “no interestsâ€￾ all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality. ~page 180, FFVII Ultimania Omega

These voices are the original Cloud, as -- due to Hojo's Sephiroth Clones experiment -- Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing a conflict of multiple personalities. ~FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 68

It says here that Cloud had multiple personality's, not just Zack's personality. Also it doesn't matter if Lifestream White isn't canon, because Aerith announces that she likes Zack for Zack, and Cloud for Cloud, and that she didn't flirt with Cloud because he reminded her of Zack.

At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke... his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.
But Cloud is clueless. ~Aerith's monologue in Gongaga, page 159, FFVII Dismantled

About Tifa and Cloud, how can they have a romantic relationship together, when Tifa sees Cloud as a child ?

..He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy. ~Case of Tifa


[During a conversation with Tifa] ... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable...

With the whole AC thing, Aerith and Zack where just joking around. Cloud had his eyes close and he was half in a coma, he didn't have any clue where he was, and he probably mentioned his Mum, since she died during the Nibelhiem tragedy.
Also, SE has made it clear, that Cloud does have feelings for Aerith.


Cloud: Here I met a flower girl.
She’s a girl with impressive eyes. She’s around my age, or elder by one or two years. But the innocent radiance in her eyes simply makes her suddenly look younger.
(snip)
Aerith: “Excuse me, what happened?”
She asked me the question, and then I bought a flower from her, which is rare in Midgar.

Maybe she’s pleased that the flower was sold, because the worried look on her face had vanished. If this smile costs only one gil, it is a good purchase. - FFVII DISMANTLED


Cloud: It’s quite amazing.
Previously, I met a flowergirl, Aerith, at 5th Street of the Slum, and now I was received at her place.- FFVII DISMANTLED


. Dismantled has shown us that Cloud deeply has affections for Aerith. He is adored by her smile, and her beauty. Also the Promise, Tifa forced him into it, he didn't make the promise out of affection for Tifa.

Tifa "Hey, why don't we make a promise?"
"Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind....."
"You come save me, all right?"
(Cloud climbs to the top of the well and looks at the stars.)
Tifa "Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?"
Cloud "...I probably wont be able to come back to this town for a while."
(Tifa makes a motion.)
Cloud "...huh?"
Tifa "Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?"
Cloud "I'll try."
Tifa "Hey, why don't we make a promise?"
"Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind....."
"You come save me, all right?"


. Plus Tifa is only interested in being saved by Cloud, if he becomes famous. Cloud doesn't promise to Tifa that he'll save her, Tifa makes Cloud promise her that he'll save her if he becomes famous like Sephiroth.

 

[HighwindPilot]

Before I jump into the discussion, I’d like to first point out that my knowledge of Final Fantasy VII first and foremost derives from the original game itself, and extends about as far as the spin-off games (Dirge and CC) and “movies” (Last Order and AC). I’ve never explored the novellas or similar material. Frankly, such compilations don’t hold as much weight to me as the initial title anyway, but I apologize in advance for my lack of enlightenment on such pieces.

. Plus Tifa is only interested in being saved by Cloud, if he becomes famous. Cloud doesn't promise to Tifa that he'll save her, Tifa makes Cloud promise her that he'll save her if he becomes famous like Sephiroth.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see what you’re getting at here. Are you questioning its legitimacy or meaning? For starters, in all of Nibelheim the one person Cloud decided to spill his dreams to was Tifa. I’m sure there’s something to that, let alone the fact that he called her out in the middle of the night to do so. Moreover, Tifa later attests that she didn’t know Cloud very well at that time, so of course the feelings weren’t quite reciprocated. But the fact that she brings up the promise so often in present time means that it is obviously dear to her. And when Cloud declares his lack of success to justify his unfulfillment of the promise she quickly dismisses qualifications as non-issues (knowing then that he didn’t even make SOLDIER), so that clearly wasn’t her angle.

About Tifa and Cloud, how can they have a romantic relationship together, when Tifa sees Cloud as a child ?

And this is why I take the extended sources with a grain of salt. Her perspective of Cloud is comparable to that of a mother towards a child? So when Cloud is slipping from the bridge of the reactor the “so many things” she has to tell him are of a parental sort? Her obsession with him following his absence from the group was also a motherly one? And what of their intimacy in the Lifestream and outside the Highwind? "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..." If these are Tifa’s parental tendencies then Marlene better run for the hills!


Regarding other more recent points of debate:

Cloud’s early feelings towards Aeris (I hope you all don’t mind my calling her such) seem to be aggrandized. While I don’t deny that he may have feelings towards her at a later point in time, I think a lot of what’s made of their early encounters is largely overstated.

I believe it was proposed Cloud makes it a point to declare his bodyguard role well after their initial agreement? But he doesn’t even mention it until their time in jail and it was a one-time thing. It is Aeris who references it during their early travels. Cloud, meanwhile, makes no such emphasis to keep her around. Instead, he tries to send her home during their entire time together up until the graveyard before Sector 7. In fact, what does he bring up as soon as they make it to her house? That he wants to leave for Tifa’s bar (was it necessary to mention her name?) He is even willing to leave her behind in the middle of the night (I admit Elmyra may have some influence here), so just how close could they be?

Many people seem to view Cloud and Aeris’ time together atop the playground’s slide with romantic consideration. Ignoring his lackluster approach to it, am I the only one who recalls how that goes? Two lines into it and they start discussing her ex. Real mood-setter there. Yes, ladies, try pulling that move during your next romantic encounter and see how hot and heavy things get. The awkwardness that would inevitably ensue is interrupted only by the sight of Tifa’s excursion, which I might add, incites a huge reaction from Cloud. From there recall that every ridiculous out-of-character thing he proceeds to do is for Tifa’s sake.

And so then we get to the rescue of Aeris that seems to be floating around the debate. At what point is this portrayed as romantic, intimate, or even that personal? He walks away from Tifa and Barrett without saying a word? Mr. Conservative isn’t revealing his hand? That’s a shocker. It should be reminded that on the pillar when Aeris is *seen* to be in captivity he bears very little reaction there. Barrett and Tifa do most of the talking. Furthermore, right after he’s asked if he’s going to rescue Aeris he confirms that plan but professes that he first wants to learn more about the ancients. Cue the quote from Sephiroth.

That tells you where his mind is at and what his main priority is, and it’s not at all unreasonable to suggest that he wants to get at Shinra. His devil-may-care attitude is brought up as a means to show a contrast between his original mentality and his sudden motivation to act, but let’s think that over. His disgusted reaction to Reno, his intrigue in Shinra’s chase of Aeris, his eager attempt to speak to the President, or even his reaction to Sephiroth’s name are all examples of the contrary. He clearly retains ties to Shinra at that point, even if he doesn’t fully understand them his self.

So all in all I really think a lot is being made of a little in regards to his initial stages with Aeris.


One last thing I’d like to address for now is the idea that the commercial advertisement is what determines which relationship is “canon”. I’ve seen so many promos that aren’t entirely faithful to the source material. Some of them for television and movies even show scenes cut from the final product, and they all mix around clips to sometimes project something as more than what they are. And they are entitled to do this because the marketing team’s main job is to sell the product and make it look as appealing as possible to do so (some might not even know the extent of the actual story). I’m sure if a scene like a blocky Cloud and Tifa’s drifting in the Lifestream together were as half as aesthetically pleasing as the cut-scene of Cloud holding a limp Aeris they might have gone with that one. It is truly a stretch to say that this determines what’s canon.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Can I still post here?

It's been made painfully clear that Cloud loves Tifa through the game, be it FFVII, AC, ACC. You don't 'stalk' a girl, trying to impress her, promised her to protect or save her if you don't like that girl.

That's your opinion that he "stalked" Tifa, he just wanted some friends which he had none of and he was a bloody child, who had a crush as did all the other boys in town mind you, on the most popular girl in town, this doesn't mean it was or is love.

What do you make of Cloud taking Aerith on not one but 2 dates, becoming her bodyguard and asking her who he was?

Hasn't it been officially stated that Tifa "strong-armed" Cloud into that promise, a promise mind you, he completely forgot as an adult? And it has also been officially stated that Cloud childhood crush on Tifa was a "slight/dim crush".

ほのかに想いを寄せていた村の少女ティファに
"...to Tifa, for whom he had had slight feelings..." ~ FFVII Ultimania Omega

I don't know whether this true or false, some stated that Maiden of Lifestream isn't canon. Regardless, we can ignore Aerith's feelings in this one. Doesn't matter if she loves him when it's clear that Cloud loves Tifa.

Proof please, because its your opinion that he loves Tifa, the man has gone on TWO dates with Aerith, suffered in loneliness after her death, closed his heart off after her death and she is officially stated as "someone dear to him" while Tifa is consistently friend-zoned and Aerith is singled out amongst the bunch of friends.

A scene in AC, when Loz and Yazoo attacked Cloud after Kadaj gone, shows Aerith pat Cloud's forehead and Cloud said, "Kaa-san." Now, I don't have the English Sub, but I do understand a little bit of Japanese. Aerith said, "Why does he always called me mom?" Then Zack, "It's good isn't it." Aerith replied, "No, I don't want son this big."

No, Cloud eyes are closed, and since Aerith is stated to have the essence to all she encounters as a nurturing mother Clouds feels her motherly resonance and says "Mother" in confusion...much like Zack did who "loved" Aerith.

And Aerith says "Why is everyone calling me that lately" and since Cloud called Aerith "mother" (in consusion, since his eyes were closed) Aerith teasingly says "this ones a bit too big to adopt" in order to tell him he doesn't belong there yet.

As it is, Cloud's loves for Aerith more like mother or sister. Again in AC, Cloud stated that he couldn't protect his friend nor family after Denzel got 'abducted'.

Don't forget that Cloud impersonated Zack's personality. I think that's why Aerith got a bit interested in him.

to put it short, Cloud and Aerith pairing is just a wishful thinking while Cloud and Tifa is canon.

Where in hell is it stated that Aeriths's like his mom or sister? Because I can tell you in CoT Tifa embraces her mother feelings for Cloud and even sees him as a child :/

Cloud says, "I can't protect my friends, my family, no one" how does this relate to just Aerith, he's telling why he can't go save Denzel and the children?

Wrong, wrong; Aerith loved Cloud for the real Cloud and Cloud wasn't all Zack all the time, just bits and pieces here and there; its been officially stated on both counts.

The origin of the saying “Not interests.”​

"In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by saying “I used to think people around me are foolish”, surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders. If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “Not interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, they belong to the real Cloud’s personality."​

---

1.​

"So you won't have a breakdown..." Aerith appears in Cloud's dream, she seems to console him with such​

advice. This line can infer that Aerith has seen through the essence of Cloud. (FFVII Ultimania Omega)​

2.​

Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud​

himself grows and is attracted to him. (FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 31)​

If your so sure in CxT, why did you feel the need to come in here and debate? If Cloud and Tifa are so Canon why are Cloud and Aerith the ones stated in the international commercials as a "Love" while Tifa is friendzoned? If Cloud and Tifa are canon why did Nomura say he had no clue if Tifa and Cloud were ever together? If CxT are so canon why did Case of Lifestream; White call Cloud Aerith's Lover/Koibito? If Cloud and Tifa are so Canon why did Tifa feel the need to go and ask Cloud in CoT "Do you love me?" if he loves her so much? If Cloud loves Tifa why in the world is he loving in Aeriths Church and calling it "his place"? If Cloud and Tifa are so canon why does Tifa get jealous of Aerith and Cloud excluding her and building their own two-person world?

I’m sorry, but I don’t see what you’re getting at here. Are you questioning its legitimacy or meaning? For starters, in all of Nibelheim the one person Cloud decided to spill his dreams to was Tifa. I’m sure there’s something to that, let alone the fact that he called her out in the middle of the night to do so. Moreover, Tifa later attests that she didn’t know Cloud very well at that time, so of course the feelings weren’t quite reciprocated. But the fact that she brings up the promise so often in present time means that it is obviously dear to her. And when Cloud declares his lack of success to justify his unfulfillment of the promise she quickly dismisses qualifications as non-issues (knowing then that he didn’t even make SOLDIER), so that clearly wasn’t her angle.

Cloud was a kid, his crush was dim and just that; a crush, Tifa didn't even notice him when he waited out-side her house to be friends with her or even acknowledge him and its officially stated in the Ultimanias that Tifa strong-armed Cloud into the promise in case its not painfully obvious when you play the game, though I agree Cloud obviously thought it meant some thing back then; but that's kind of null and void when he forgets it when he joins AVALANCHE.

What are you referenceing that Tifa dismisses Clouds failure and knew he hadn't made it into SOLDIER? Because up until the Lifestream event Tifa also would liked to have believed Cloud a first class SOLDIER and even continued the charade herself, I suppose thats her knowing he hadn't made it into SOLDIER; but she was still making him what SHE wanted him to be :/

Honestly, there's nothing to be said or made of Cloud asking Tifa to the well, all the boys in town did that with her and Cloud thought she wasn't even going to show. But I don't know why this is important, it was his childhood-dim crush not love.

And this is why I take the extended sources with a grain of salt. Her perspective of Cloud is comparable to that of a mother towards a child? So when Cloud is slipping from the bridge of the reactor the “so many things” she has to tell him are of a parental sort? Her obsession with him following his absence from the group was also a motherly one? And what of their intimacy in the Lifestream and outside the Highwind? "This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..." If these are Tifa’s parental tendencies then Marlene better run for the hills!

Tifa's motherly feelings are said to bloom in Case of Tifa, an official novella, telling of numerous little ordeals of Tifas seeing Cloud as a child until she finally comes to terms with motherly feelings blooming in her.

"Cloud gazed at Tifa like a kid who just had his secrets revealed." ~ Case of Tifa

Tifa thought he was like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn't know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was blooming in her. ~ Case of Tifa

The feelings are blooming inside of her; she hasn't always known they were motherly feelings she realizes them as such; in all honestly the same thing happened with Quistis and Squall in FFVII she confuses her "sisterly feelings" for "love".

Yes, we know Cloud wanted to leave before Aerith got into danger of any more sorts by his affiliation with her, he still allows her to come along, I mean he honestly didn't try too hard to get rid of her. I mean he certainly didn't spare Tifa's and AVALANCHES feelings when saying he didn't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet did he? He could have easliy shown Aerith -a mere stranger at the time- the same cruelty, but he didn't and AVALANCHE were paying him.

[Tifa "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us."
Cloud "Sorry Tifa..."
Tifa "The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying."
"Someone has to do something."
Cloud "So let Barret and his buddies do something about it."
"It's got nothin' to do with me." ]

[Cloud "Shut up!"
"I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER!"
"But don't get me wrong!"
"I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"]

Cloud nods his head to Aeriths request and fights off the Turks for Aerith, accepting a date as payment, that's him mentioning it enough, I mean he nodded in agreement. And goes on a date with her in the Moogle Park, but what does this have to do with anything?

If memory serves right, Cloud is more than interested in her past relationship, even going as far to ask if they were serious. Honestly though the contents of their conversation and whether or not they were romantic is up to mere opinion.


Point is it was a date they were on; in and of itself a romantic thing.


I mean Tifa took threat to them being as they were, saying they had grown close quickly and that she grew envious of Aerith and Cloud excluding her and building their own two person world...

It’s just that...I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became close.Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder… ~ Tifa, Dismantled

"When Cloud and Aerith exclude Tifa, her emotion is sometimes becoming of jealousy." ~ Dismantled


Cloud dressing up as a girl for...Tifa? What? Yeeeah...okay "for Tifa's sake", he wastes days, getting dressed as a woman so that Aerith doesn't go into a bordello alone, how is this for Tifa again? He could have wasted no time in instantly going to save Tifa but decides to go out of his way so Aerith doesn't go into a whore-house alone...?


I mean his reaction to her even suggesting going in to such a place alone says mass volumes, I mean Aerith incited a pretty huge reaction. Doesn't he scream "No!! You can't!!!"? Pretty bid display of feelings there.


Cloud "But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
"First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...." "What's so funny, Aerith?"

The first words out of his mouth are regarding Aerith and then Tifa comes afterwards,
I mean its blatantly clear what what his priorities were as he proceeds to waist various amounts of
time ensuring Aerith not go in alone.

Well, I take from your before comment that you haven't read Dismantled, which was released
side by side with the Original Final Fantasy VII same date same time. Which gives insight on the characters and events of FFVII.

I'll focus on the original Final Fantasy VII first and foremost though. Though in all honesty, the databooks and Ultimanias are filled with creators words and interviews and are as canon as the games they made.

Not only has Cloud made it abundantly clear he gave less than two shits about Shin-Ra or the
planet and their plans for the world, he also made it abundantly clear he didn't care about AVALANCHE.
So the mere fact of going to save Aerith when no one offered pay to him speaks for a lot.
Since Tifa begged him to help AVALANCHE and only the offer of a child's school money swayed him.

So, yeah...I'd say it was his personal interest.

Yeah, Mr. Conservative ignored Tifa talking about 'her feelings' and Barret asking him what he'd do next, he didn't simply walk away, he ignored them and their heart felt moments.
What now? No, he said before he goes and saves Aerith there's something he wants to know.

He went to Elmyra to learn about the Ancients, he went to Shin-Ra head quarters to save Aerith.
Not once is it said or even insinuated that he's going to Shin-Ra HQ for info, only that he's going to save Aerith. He wants to know more about Ancients...isn't Aerith an Ancient as well?

He stated what he was going to do, when Tifa asked and when Barret asked; did he say he wants to go learn more about Shinra and Sephiroth at Shin-Ra? No, he said "I'm going to save Aerith". If Info was most important to him why didn't he say so? Why did he say He was to save Aerith if it was info he was after? (strange Aerith continues to be a factor in all his motives)

It IS unreasonable to suggest such a bold thing since he never said anything of hit, sure he showed hostility toward them, but he said he didn't care about Shin-Ra did he not? So yeah, I'd say its illogical to insist he was after Shin-Ra -- since he said he didn't care about them.

In regards to his true mentality; No, actually his cocky, cold, anti-social half is the real Cloud, it IS his real mentality anything contrary-wise
is the influence of the JENOVA cells. No one denied he still has ties to Shin-Ra by choice or not, however he said he wants to save Aerith, not get back at Shin-Ra. To insist on anything other is silly.

Now, Dismantled -a data-book released aside FFVII in 97- in regards to Cloud motif's had the same thing to say, it gave us an inside look at what Clouds feelings on the matter were, what his priorities were and what not as though the words "I don't care about Shin-Ra" weren't enough.

Cloud: in Aerith’s house
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means! ~ Cloud Strife, Dismantled.



​

Dismantled an FFVII databook, give insight that while in Aeriths house getting information on the Ancients, all that was on his mind was Aeriths safety and rescuing her "by all means" -- not Shin-Ra or the Ancients.


So what, they only advertised Cloud and Aerith loving each other, to make FFVII look good? That's even better SE believed that Cloud and Aerith were appealing to audiences, I think they'd like to keep appealing to us with Cloud x Aerith as they have been doing.

If the European, U.S. and French versions of the commercial state said love; that's more than reliable.The official commercial ad that says Cloud and Aerith are a love is a stretch to you? Does it not say "Squaresoft" at the end of the CM? And did it not run in several languages and countries? That's undependable to you? Not to even mention that their was no FFVII fan-base to appeal to yet, so it makes no sense how people would yet find CXA attractive.

 

[Linnaete]

Just be aware that this thread isn't for casual chatting, so try and avoid posts that have insubstantial content. If you have to tell another participant member that you haven't had time for the thread for example, it can easily go into the SB, VMs or PMs.

 

[Ruhku]

I think Cloud knows that Zack like Aerith and vice versa. Through me playing crisis core it certainly did look that way. I do plan to read the book sometime just not now.
I think Cloud is more adjusted to Tifa because arn't they both for the same hometown?

 

[The Witch]

I think Cloud knows that Zack like Aerith and vice versa. Through me playing crisis core it certainly did look that way. I do plan to read the book sometime just not now.
I think Cloud is more adjusted to Tifa because arn't they both for the same hometown?

kay, but square enix has declared that Aerith loves Cloud far more than she loved Zack. They also said she moved on from Zack to Cloud.

So even if you have proof and reasoning for Cloud/tifa... there's no denying that Aerith loves Cloud canonly.

 

[Ruhku]

Man would Zack feel in the dumps but the I mean...he did die by SOLDIER and not kept that promise by staying alive and seen Aerith again.

Either that or Aerith is one of those picky girls. =D

 

[The Witch]

Man would Zack feel in the dumps but the I mean...he did die by SOLDIER and not kept that promise by staying alive and seen Aerith again.

Either that or Aerith is one of those picky girls. =D

She's picky because she...
fell in love with someone else?

What about the dozens of boys that joined soldier for tifa? Was she picky for not picking them? Of course not. You can't help who you fall in love with. Zack might have tried hard to get to Aerith (I don't personally think so) but that doesn't mean Aerith should love him solely because Zack feels that way. Aerith has made it known that the man she loves is 5 foot 8, has blonde hair and tends to brood.

Aerith even spoke to Zack in maiden of the planet about how things between them are over... Zack was a lil down... but he dealt with it.

 

[Ruhku]

maiden of planet?

And I know I just didn't really say it specificly.

 

[Saints&Storms]

I think Cloud knows that Zack like Aerith and vice versa. Through me playing crisis core it certainly did look that way. I do plan to read the book sometime just not now.
I think Cloud is more adjusted to Tifa because arn't they both for the same hometown?

Being from the same town doesn't mean that they are together or canon though, that would mean Tifa x every boy in Nibleheim since they all took her too the well and are from the same town as well, and Dismantled, Case of Lifestream; White and Maiden all prove Aerith is over Zack -- a guy who couldn't even send a letter to her...

 

[HighwindPilot]

[FONT=&quot]

Cloud was a kid, his crush was dim and just that; a crush,

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I’d say it was a *little* more than that. He based his future around getting her to notice him. You can talk about all the behind-the-scene boys in Nibelheim who allegedly did something like this, but Cloud’s desperation in this matter is made evident when they dive into his past. People do a lot of stupid things for crushes; enlisting isn’t one of them. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Tifa didn't even notice him when he waited out-side her house to be friends with her or even acknowledge him

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What’s your point? I (and Tifa) confirmed that she didn’t know him much growing up.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

and its officially stated in the Ultimanias that Tifa strong-armed Cloud into the promise in case its not painfully obvious when you play the game

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cloud is going off to join SOLDIER to get Tifa to notice him. You don’t think this is something that he would *want*? Might he not want to stand in front of his child-hood desire as her protector, fat sword in hand, in uniform, while flexing his guns? Whether it was “forced” or not is not what’s important, it’s what it meant to him that is. I’d speculate that his hesitance to make the promise was based around his *well-known* insecurity and self-doubt in response to such a heavy ordeal. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

What are you referenceing that Tifa dismisses Clouds failure and knew he hadn't made it into SOLDIER?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Read back at the post I responded to. The poster implied that Tifa wanted these things from a famous Cloud. My point is that when it came down to it Cloud’s prestige didn’t make a difference to her. He attempts to bring up his shortcomings as a means to say he can’t keep the promise and she quickly brushes it aside and compromises with a line about making SOLDIER, something she knew he didn’t do. Why? So he wouldn’t give up on their promise. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Because up until the Lifestream event Tifa also would liked to have believed Cloud a first class SOLDIER and even continued
the charade herself, I suppose thats her knowing he hadn't made it into SOLDIER; but she was still making him what SHE wanted him to be :/

I’ll go ahead and guess this is in Dismantled? I’d like to see the quote if so, because nowhere in the actual game is this stated. In fact, her in-game reasons are made clear when they explore his mind: “Tifa ‘I've been hiding it for some time, afraid that if I told you... something terrible might happen. But, I'm not going to hide anything anymore.’” From the moment they reunited she recognized certain instability from him and kept up the charade for his sanity’s sake. This goes deeper than any silly LTD to the game’s very core.

Honestly, there's nothing to be said or made of Cloud asking Tifa to the well, all the boys in town did that with her and Cloud thought she wasn't even going to show. But I don't know why this is important, it was his childhood-dim crush not love.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
So because other guys showed interest in her, Cloud’s is made insignificant? Explain how that works.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Furthermore, I never said it was love, though I’d venture to say it’s greater than a crush as well. It’s important to their relationship because it defines their roots and history. However, if you’re questioning its existence in this conversation understand that I was responding to what I feel are incorrect points by another poster regarding its importance.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

The feelings are blooming inside of her; she hasn't always known
they were motherly feelings she realizes them as such; in all honestly the same thing happened with Quistis and Squall in FFVII she confuses her "sisterly feelings" for "love".

[/FONT]
Let me stop you here, because this is where you’re trailing outside the script into what is purely your own fabrication. You’re taking something that’s described as a new feeling and inflating it in an attempt to revise their entire history. That doesn’t work because nothing said in this supersedes the countless romantic implications on her part made throughout FFVII. You know what a glaring difference is between her situation and Quistis’? Quistis’ confusion is directly clarified, and no such thing is done for Tifa in her novella.

Having said that, the meaning of the mother simile isn’t all that clear to begin with, so its isolation is this thread is amusing. Don’t get me wrong, I can understand the assessment that Tifa is beginning to see Cloud in a motherly light, but it is by no means a definite one. Not when she later lays awake pondering his feelings for her and asking if he loves her. Deeper into the story she even perceives Cloud as a father to both Marlene and Denzel.

Now it’s a well-known fact that she views Marlene as a daughter, so if she’s taken on the role as a mother to Cloud then that makes her what? Marlene’s grandmother? Or could it just be that her motherly traits show through in the way that she deals with Cloud? Qualities that are not uncommon in women in relationships, and frankly, are said to be possessed by both Tifa and Aeris (whose had her own maternal comparison in AC) in Reunion Files. Finally, Tifa still references the idea of a “real family” with Cloud in AC, meaning she clearly hasn’t given up on such a relationship with him.

Yes, we know Cloud wanted to leave before Aerith got into danger of any more sorts by his affiliation with her, he still allows her to come along, I mean he honestly didn't try too hard to get rid of her. I mean he certainly didn't spare Tifa's and AVALANCHES feelings when saying he didn't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet did he? He could have easliy shown Aerith -a mere stranger at the time- the same cruelty, but he didn't and AVALANCHE were paying him.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
He attempts to leave her in the middle of the night. Booty-Calls get treated with better respect than that. What greater effort do you need? I’d get to talking about how lousy it’d be from both a writing and gaming standpoint to actually implement scenes of Cloud attempting to take her home but I realize you want to speak for their reality so I’ll spare that. No, with the exception of trying to leave her in the middle of the night, he didn’t do a whole lot to try to get rid of her, but what was he really supposed to do when she shows up where she knows he’ll be anyway? Telling her to go home virtually every step of the way was a pretty straight-forward alternative. I know I wouldn’t tell someone that so often if I actually want them around. [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
On a side-note, you cite Cloud’s supposed lack of objection towards Aeris’ company here but fail to mention that Tifa “forcing” Cloud into *the promise* merely took repeating the proposal; funny.[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And I love how you continue to make an example of Cloud’s declarations to Tifa and the rest of AVALANCHE. Yeah, that’s all good, but you know what speaks even louder than that? His actions. In the spirit of “not trying hard”, [FONT=&quot] Tifa sure got him to come back inside pretty quick, let alone the fact that he signed on to the mission for an entire 1k gil less than what he asked for without even a rebuttal. And while the dialogue was optional, certain interactions that could be chosen with the members of Avalanche were more than telling. These things wouldn’t even have been written in if they weren’t meant to show a potentially early confliction in Cloud’s character. And I point all this out to say that he clearly wasn’t as hard-edged as he put up, just like in his childhood. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

If memory serves right, Cloud is more than interested in her past relationship, even going as far to ask if they were serious.

[/FONT]

That doesn’t help your case, nor does it change the fact that they spent the time talking about her ex.

[FONT=&quot]

Honestly though the contents of their conversation and whether or not they were romantic is up to mere opinion.

[/FONT]

It’s interesting that a shaky scene with Aeris is “up to mere opinion”, but you so adamantly attempt to clearly define any ambiguous quote or scene regarding Tifa.

[FONT=&quot]

Point is it was a date they were on; in and of itself a romantic thing.

[/FONT]

I don’t mean this offensively, but have you ever been on a date? It’s usually defined by both figures involved and meant with romantic attempt (in its traditional sense). They were on their way to Sector 6 and stopped off at the playground. And honestly, you talk about Tifa strong-arming Cloud into a promise but make no mention of the fact that Aeris rushed a seemingly reluctant Cloud into joining her?

If it is a date, it ranks among the worst in any history.

[FONT=&quot]

Cloud dressing up as a girl for...Tifa? What? Yeeeah...okay "for Tifa's sake", he wastes days, getting dressed as a woman so that Aerith doesn't go into a bordello alone, how is this for Tifa again?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Cloud ‘This is SOME underwear.... I'm supposed to wear this...? Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around.’" Yeeeah…okay, argue with the game’s script more for the sake of your preference, please. [/FONT]

He could have wasted no time in instantly going to save Tifa but decides to go out of his way so Aerith doesn't go into a whore-house alone...?

This is self-contradictory; if he felt he could have busted in to save Tifa why would he even worry about Aeris going in the whore-house alone?

I agree that his desire to keep Aeris protected at this point is made evident but they are ultimately there to save Tifa; she is the priority here.

At this time I’ll also address another thing related to both previous and upcoming points: If Cloud really couldn’t care less about AVALANCHE, Shinra, Tifa, or anything else, why does he positively agree to help her with Sector 7 upon her mere request at Don's? No money involved, no hesitation or any other thought; she asked and he obliged. [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Not only has Cloud made it abundantly clear he gave less than two shits about Shin-Ra or the
planet and their plans for the world, he also made it abundantly clear he didn't care about AVALANCHE.
So the mere fact of going to save Aerith when no one offered pay to him speaks for a lot.
Since Tifa begged him to help AVALANCHE and only the offer of a child's school money swayed him.

See the above points. He's clearly not as strong-headed as he boasts.

So, yeah...I'd say it was his personal interest.

Actually, after reading the Dismantled quote I agree that it clearly is personal (it’s not as straight-forward in the game). Now does Dismantled provide any reasoning? Because I’m thinking guilt, which is a common theme in Cloud’s character, is a large aspect of it. He didn’t want her accompanying him in the first place, largely due to the dangers involved. So when she does and even aids them in doing so, how do you imagine he would feel? Given the context that’s more than fair.

Having said that, there's no denying his interest in the circumstances surrounding Aeris' captivity either, which yes, tie back to Sephiroth and shinra. It is not as simple as, "Oh, Aeris is an ancient, I want to know more." It triggered a quote from Sephiroth (whose condition, we later realize, is something of an obsession of his), which literally shows us there was more going on in his head than what he revealed to the others.

So yeah, I'd say its illogical to insist he was after Shin-Ra -- since he said he didn't care about them.

Then you’re vastly ignoring context. On the other hand, I admit that it was as much about Aeris as anything else, though that still doesn’t speak of a romantic or affectionate perspective.

In regards to his true mentality; No, actually his cocky, cold, anti-social half is the real Cloud, it IS his real mentality anything contrary-wise is the influence of the JENOVA cells.

I have no idea what the hell you’re arguing here, or who you’re arguing with. When did I ever discuss his “true mentality” in my previous post? Still, I will take this time to suggest that your view of his mentality is rather short-sighted. Look back over the Lifestream scene if you need to recall *why* he is that way.

[FONT=&quot]If the European, U.S. and French versions of the commercial state said love; that's more than reliable.The official commercial ad that says Cloud and Aerith are a love is a stretch to you? Does it not say "Squaresoft" at the end of the CM? And did it not run in several languages and countries? That's undependable to you? Not to even mention that their was no FFVII fan-base to appeal to yet, so it makes no sense how people would yet find CXA attractive.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Oh dear, all I can suggest here is to take a marketing or even an economics course if it’s really necessary. Commercial advertisements are not faithfully chained to the product. In fact, many of them manipulate the material and information they’re given to make the product seem more appealing than it may be; it’s the marketers’ jobs to do so. Hell, the same commercials you’re referring to show *nothing* but fully-animated cut-scenes throughout its entirety. So by your logic that we should identify Cloud and Aeris as lovers based on what the commercial presents us, we should also expect the entire game to be comprised of cut-scene quality gameplay right? Oh, wait… It’s not the idea of finding “CxA” attractive, it’s the idea that the image quality is attractive and that happens to be an opportune scene to tack “love” onto, which ultimately speaks to the game’s intricacy and thus makes it more appealing. [/FONT]

 

[Saints&Storms]

I don't care what anyone else says it was or thinks it was -- I care what SE and Nomura say it was. And they say it was a DIM/SLIGHT crush. He was thirteen years old or so, kids do irrational and stupid things, Cloud even says that he himself and the other kids in town were "stupid" in the Lifestream event.

My point is pretty clear; Tifa was only after getting a "Knight in Shining armor", so Clouds past dim crush and an reciprocated on at that means less than nothing.

I doesn't matter what I think of the promise, because its official; she strong-armed him into the promise and as an Adult he didn't even remember it.
I see nothing of yet another boy going after the most popular girl in town, especially when said boy...had no friends; this makes his already dim and weak crush even weaker.
I don't care why you think Cloud had to be strong-armed into the promise, because point and case - He had to be strong-armed into the promise!

She did, Tifa, was ready to fall for the first guy that got famous, she wanted a knight in shining armor; and I'd say a guy going around to save the world came pretty damn close to her expectations. By the time the Lifestream Event rolls by, Cloud was saving the entire world, by the first point in the game when Tifa acknowledges Cloud as himself he's practically a hero fighting off Shin-Ra. I didn't quite see her diving into the Northern Crater to save him, her first words after waking up as a Shin-Ra captive were "I'm Hungry" we know Tifa's priorities.

But I digress; because her hopes for a hero and Clouds dim crush both mean nothing.

No, its not from Dismantled; its from the game, in the Northern Crater when Sephiroth is tormenting Cloud with the truth, her reason for keeping the secret was that she needed more time and later says herself she suspected and noticed things wrong with him but kept them secret to keep him close to her to be with him...?

Where do you see that she's keeping it for his sanity's sake? Does that make sense? Keeping someone crazy...so they don't go crazy? She said so herself why she kept it secret; "But then I heard... you were going far away...And I didn't want that..." as well as "And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you."

No, Clouds dim crush is insignificant because the creators say its insignificant by calling it dim and slight. Don't put words in my mouth, please...>>

I honestly don't care if you wanna see it that way, that's cool with me, but you can;t come into a debate using what you see has counter-points; the point has been made that the creators intended it other-wise, a simple dim-crush, they called it a "crush" not "More than a crush" for a reason.

I'm fabricating really? Have you even read Case of Tifa? I am sure you said you had not read the novellas and that you "took them with a grain of salt", despite their authenticity.

Yes there is; Tifa says she enjoys the new motherly feelings blooming with in her toward Cloud and abbout Cloud; are we reading the same book? Because her feelings are likened to that of a mothers, are they not?

It IS comparable to Quistis; because despite having HAD past romantic feelings and intention for Squall, she realizes she feels as a sister would, much like Tifa did -- Quistis is the prime example that you can THINK you had romantic feelings for someone and realize they were actually something completely DIFFERENT.

Isn't it Tifa who feels the MOTHERLY feelings and see's Cloud as a big kid? Hence noting her blatant confusion.

Now I am trully wondering if we are reading the same book, because A "motherly smile"...I don't remember anything about that, I remember "motherly feelings", meaning she feels as a Mother would feel and welcomes it.

Tifa burst out in laughter. Cloud went on about how he got paid a little for delivering items. He explained to her how he felt guilty spending it all on the modifications for the bike. Tifa thought he was just like a kid. It may have been a little sad that Cloud had found another world that I didn’t know about but, the fact that his world was expanding was a welcoming thought. Yes, it was similar to the feelings a mother would have. Tifa walked Cloud outside, enjoying the new feeling that was welling up inside her. ~ Case of Tifa

I didn't think Tifa saying she'd be unsurprised if people perceived him as such, meant she believed him to be their father; since she knows Barret is Marlenes father -- not Cloud. But despite your misconception -- what would this prove of Clouds feelings for Tifa? Or, hell, even his alleged "feelings" for her? Since its simply Tifa's opinion.

After the bar was closed, the usual three people sat around the table. It wouldn’t be a surprise if someone said it was a young father with his two children. ~ Case of Tifa

How does her questioning whether Cloud loves her or not, not coincide with her gaining motherly feelings for him? I honestly don't get what you are trying to get at; Because not only is Tifa having to ASK if he loves her (what a "relationship" they got their) but when she asks if they are enough for Cloud -- he doesn't answer her, he ignored the question, if he loved her, he definitely would not have left that answer hanging.

“Do you love me?”
Cloud woke up, a perplexed look on his face.
“Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?”
“Yeah. But sometimes I don’t know how to approach her.”

“Even though we’ve been together for some time?”
“Maybe that just isn’t enough.”
“Even we aren’t enough for you?”
Cloud didn’t answer.
“Sorry for asking some strange things.”
“Don’t apologize. It’s my problem.”
Cloud closed his eyes.
“Let’s work hard together.”

Whoa, first off, no Aerith never is stated to have mother feelings for Cloud, she appears infron of people who are pained and confused as a motherly figure. She never has feelings for Cloud similar to a mothers. And again Tifa said she'd be unsurprised at people think him the kids father.

Secondly, Tifa feels like a mother to Cloud she feels like a mother to Marlene as well as Denzel; does this make them all actual siblings? No. You are responding as though I said Tifa was signing Cloud adoption papers, which I had not.

And Marlene calls all (Barret, herself, Cloud and Tifa) a family, does this mean Barret and Tifa are involved, since he's her father and Tifa is her mother? As well as Tifa saying ALL her friends are their family...Tifa seeing them as a family -- means nothing romantically.



When trying to "get rid of Aerith" or more properly the lack thereof, Like I said; he could have acted distantly and cold to her as he had to Tifa and AVALANCHE without a care -- telling them he cares only for his money, not caring what their names are, and telling them he flat out doesn't care about them or their cause/the planet. None of which did he do to Aerith nor did he even try, he even implicated that he'd want something from her for protection -- he could have asked for money like he had with AVALANCHE -- but instead asked her for a date? Aerith didn't even have to utter the word "please", practically as Tifa did, begging for help and having to pay cash.

When Aerith gave him her name he took it, when Biggs tried he didn't care -- both two complete strangers yet Aerith was treated specially (And she wasn't even giving him cash).

I never heard any "Go home"'s but I did hear some concerned "I don't want you involved"s and he only left in the middle of the night at the woman's Mothers intervention. And I remember some sarcastic sexism and more worry about her "Putting herself in danger", but not a "Go away".

Like I said he could have told her as he did AVALANCHE that he didn't care about her etc. etc. [insert more ass-holery here]

That's all your opinion, because Cloud is a stiff guy, his upper lips stiff, Hades called him stiffer than the stiffs in Hell -- my point being? He's stiff, he isn't exactly Mr.Body-language. And another point to be made -- action is objective based on anyone persons personal opinion; words have strict meaning and implications that are unchangeable, in other words -- you cannot debate words.

That's your opinion; that they are solely meant to show his character conflicts, its never been stated anywhere, and quite frankly I don't care what you think the reason he said those things were, because point blank; we have to take him at face value and that means when he says something he said it for a reason. And its been officially stated that coldness and jack-ass part of Cloud has nothing to do with his mental state, its all real Cloud (see the below)

Page 180, the marked part
The origin of the saying “Not interested.”
"In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by saying “I used to think people around me are foolish”, surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders. If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting “Not interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, they belong to the real Cloud’s personality."
​

So, No. When Cloud says he doesn't care; he said it because he genuinely doesn't give a shit.


On the topic of them discussing he Ex: He's interested in her romantic life right off the bat; I mean that says a lot compiled and joined to the fact that they are on a date in the park at said time; two things showing us he's interested in her romantically; whether with someone else or on a date with Him himself -- he's still interested.

Words spoken between Cloud and Tifa are not said on A date; Cloud and Aerith's discussion in the park about Zack; is on a date which is a romantic thing in and of itself.

That's again; Your opinion, I quite liked that date and found it romantic -- that's my opinion on their date, you obviously ship Tifa/Cloud so you finding it unromantic is not surprising in the least to me. And it was indeed a date.

Because its officially stated that Tifa strong-armed Cloud into the promise, it is not however stated that Aerith forced Cloud to join her on the park date or even to have a date in the ffirst place; since Cloud initiated it would cost her and became her Bodyguard -- hence accepting the date.

[FONT=&quot]“Cloud ‘This is SOME underwear.... I'm supposed to wear this...? Well, if it's to save Tifa... I guess there's no way around.’" ~ FFVII

[/FONT]This is only if you choose The Group Room, making it optional -- with no canon outcome ever mentioned. Except for the one in Dismatled where Cloud is picked by Don in which The &$#% Room is needed in order to happen, so yeah, I'd say he onlt did it so Aerith didn't go in alone -- but then again why should I have to say it, Cloud did.

"But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh, man......"
"First, we'll need to find out if Tifa's alright...." ~ FFVII

If Tifa is the priority, then why worry about a woman he barely knows first? Wasting precious time while Tifa's in a whore-house that Cloud finds unsuitable for Aerith, but will leave Tifa in, in order to ensure Aeriths safety...?
So, now you agree, Cloud wants to protect Aerith? But in the same day that morning he was "Trying to get rid of her" why waste time protecting Aerith before Tifa when you say he didn't even want her there in the first place? And if Tifa is the priority, why go out of his way so Aerith doesn't go in alone?

Well then, only one thing is different since from the beginning of the game to when he is in Don's mansion, only one thing has changed since his earlier statements of not caring; he met Aerith.

"The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing." This is backed by this line, Cloud says when Aerith dies, saying Sephiroths plan to destroy the planet means nothing, now that Aeriths dead.

Saving Aerith is Clouds personal motive; I am glad we have that on authority. Guilt ,really? I mean, he's gone through the game taking money from school for a child, telling his childhood friend he didn't care about AVALANCHE (a group she is also in) or the fate of the world and now all of a sudden he feels guilty for Aerith, someone he supposedly repeatedly told to "Go away" in the first place? No.

No.

Dismantled, Clouds Profile,
Aeriths House
If Shinra changed the strategy all of a sudden, then no one can guarantee her safety.
I need to get in Shinra building.
I need to rescue her……by all means!

It is stated right there, he's going to save her because he wants to guarantee her safety; overall, caring about her well-being...generally. He never says anything about guilt, not once, lets not try and speculate things that weren't stated >.>

Of course Cloud is also interested in his own past and Sephiroth; but above those things, he cares about Aerith's well-being, while not it alone, it was his highest priority.

If everything else (Sephiroth, Shin-Ra etc.) was what Cloud equally cared about as well as Aerith, he wouldn't have said he didn't care about them and Dismantled would have included those things as well. But it didn't, until its seen that something officially states otherwise; then that's how it will remain.

"His devil-may-care attitude is brought up as a means to show a contrast between his original mentality and his sudden motivation to act, but let’s think that over."

This is what you said, so I replied.

No, I take what I say about Cloud from official sources, not my own opinion. I'm not short-sighted when it comes to his mentality; I simply read the official statements about him. Cloud is cold, anti-social, and cocky...oh and reserved and introverted. Its not my view, its how he's officially described.

"A reserved young man who brandishes a large sword with ease. He leads his other warriors with his rational decision-making befitting a leader, but internally he has difficulty being confident in his actions." —Dissidia 012 Description (Museum)

"A former SOLDIER 1st Class. A young swordsman with antisocial tendencies and arrogant words to match his famous title, Cloud gives out precise orders based on rational decisions. While at time inspiring ill-will, he most certainly earned the trust of his comrades." ~ Cloud Strife, FFVII, Museum for Dissidia 012

(Yes, I notice it says he's a First Class SOLDIER, but all of his profiles say he was childhood friends with Tifa as well...when he actually wasn't.)

and once again this;

"The origin of the saying "not interested".

In the scene when the young Cloud explains his mental state by saying "I used to think people around me were foolish", surprisingly, he shows the posture of shrugging his shoulders.
If we consider this, the part of his coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "not interested" all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells, They belong to the real Cloud's personality.
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, p. 180)

So what we saw int he Lifestream of Cloud calling the other kids foolish, that was real Cloud, saying not interested, being cold is all thing of the original Cloud, so his attitude, is real Cloud. Though I don;t ever recall him being devil may care. So, your view on Cloud is a bit -- "short sighted", if you ask me.



Commercial; Do you know how many levels of no sense that makes? Square Enix allowed an commercial ad to play in numerous countries and languages; stating and addressing Cloud and Aerith as a Love that was impossible and you are seriously comparing it to the select few scenes they play in the commercial as though they could possibly advertise every scene int he game? You are either being a blatant straw-man or I don't know what...

Its JUST your opinion that its 'just how commercials work', because all we ACTUALLY know for sure is that Square Enix ALLOWED it to run in several languages and countries, if they disapproved of it, it would not have run. I suggest you do a little research and take an economics class because; if a Music Label sees their song's being used on YouTube for a certain unpopular view it will be pulled so that the sales of said song aren't sullied and damaged.

But you don't have to take a class to know this, its common sense.

​

 

[soldier first class]

ANYTHING NOT IN PINK IS A QUOTE. THEY ARE IMPORTANT QUOTES. Please read them. I don't want us skipping quotes and whatnot.

Yes, exactly. Not to mention, Cloud was growing very close to Aerith, even Tifa saw how close he had gotten to Aerith just in the Don's mansion scene.

Tifa: in Don's Mansion

Hummm... I was in a complicated mood today—I was happy, but somehow, I felt annoyed at the same time.
(snip)
It’s just that...I was displeased at the way Cloud and another girl soon became good friends.
Well, Aerith is a very good girl, I was fond of her soon, too. No wonder..." - Dismantled
Okay, but what about this;

a.) Aerith: "Well then, let's see...... How about if I go out with you once?"
(Payment for Cloud.)

Aerith: "No, Cloud... I'm searching for you..."
(First and last date.)
- from the Final Fantasy Art Collection -

The first line is when the date first comes up, which suggests that it will eventually come to pass. The second line acknowledges the date between Cloud and Aerith and says it is their last. Meaning the date did occur.
For it to have been Tifa as the default date, that means Cloud and Aerith's date couldn't have been said to be their last.

Again, this quote says it is their promised date.

{#111 The Planet's largest amusement park is run by Dio. Cloud and company visit this place many times in their battle. They meet Cait Sith here. Apromised date that ends in a magical night. In the city of desire that floats above the sands, the light memory of the two people is asleep even now...

Aerith: "I think I must have seen him again, in you... But you're different. Things are different... No, Cloud... I'm searching for you..."}


The first heavy font part--A promised date that ends in a magical night--could only be talking about the date Aerith promised Cloud for his protection. If it was Tifa who was supposed to be the date, it really wouldn't be described as a "promised date" I don't think. As we all know, no where in the game does Cloud or Tifa ever promise each other a date. Like, ever.

The only person to promise a date is Aerith<--->Cloud. No one else.
Even if you disregard the first heavy-font sentence, the second heavy-font I provided, which is Aerith's "I want to meet you" quote, proves it's Aerith's date that is the promised date Cloud goes on.

If it were truly Tifa who was the default/canon date, then they shouldn't have used any of Aerith's lines when speaking about this date in the city of desire.

He acts that way, because he's Cloud. Cloud is shy and awkward.

Oh, no doubt he felt guilty for him. But did you ever notice after Cloud learns of his true past he doesn't ever speak of Zack or his death? And then, if his guilt for Zack was the same as his guilt for Aerith, why is it only Aerith he seeks forgiveness from? Why is she the only one that can heal Cloud's heart? I mean, Cloud spoke to Zack during ACC but he never asked for forgiveness.

Cloud was hurt that his best friend died, but to say he carries the same immense amount of guilt for Zack as Cloud does for Aerith is just... not true.

I'm not so sure. When a person loses the one they love the thing on their mind is to be with the one they thought were dead/dying.

Like during Aerith's death, when Cloud hears Sephiroth going on about his master plan to destroy the world and its people, Cloud tells him to shut up and that his plan and the cycle of nature doesn't mean a thing... all because Aerith was gone.

Sephiroth:"Do not worry. Soon the girl will become part of the Planet's energy. All that is left is to go North. The 'Promised Land' waits for me over the snowy fields. There I will become a new being by uniting with the planet. As will this girl... " Cloud:"...Shut up." (He bows his head closer to Aerith, trembling. He abruptly looks up to Sephiroth.) Cloud:"The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing." Cloud:"Aerith is gone." "Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get angry......" (He slowly turns his head back to Aerith's sleeping face.) (He holds her body closer to his and bows his head forward.)


Then during the death Cloud thinks this;
Cloud: "Aerith is dead. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth.

She was in my reach, and all I could do was stand there and watch as his sword ran through her. Aerith used to smile, like a flower all the time...

But, Aerith won't smile anymore... I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again.

What did she do? Why did Aerith have to die? What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's endlessly boiling and burning up my body. Yet at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body.

When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do? If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia---Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" - DISMANTLED

The way Cloud felt for Zack's death cannot be compared to the immense amount of pain and sorrow Cloud felt when Aerith died in his arms.

And for Aerith's death, Cloud's heart and mind shattered with pain that would never go away. At Aerith's death, Cloud stopped caring about everything in the world and what could happen to it (Tifa's in that world, mind you)... all because Aerith died, all because he was never going to hear her laugh or see her smile...

Hence, the bittersweet beauty of Cloud's love for the woman he has undying love for... Aerith.

I'm not sure that Aeris/Aerith was the default date that night. But it made sense. I played as though she and Cloud were going to marry. LOL little did I know she would die. So I let Tifa get the date from there on out. I still haven 't tried to get any of the others yet. I know Barrett is a possibility

 

[The Witch]

Did you read any of the quotes though? they help prove that Aerith is default date. There's actually a part in the DISMANTLED book (an official book released by SE back in 97) that shows Aerith saying to Cloud when she's in his dreams that she really enjoyed the date she and Cloud had at Gold Saucer. That means a non-optional scene referenced one version of an optional scene--logically, that means that alongside the scene it was mentioned in, her being the date is default/canon as well.

 

[soldier first class]

Did you read any of the quotes though? they help prove that Aerith is default date. There's actually a part in the DISMANTLED book (an official book released by SE back in 97) that shows Aerith saying to Cloud when she's in his dreams that she really enjoyed the date she and Cloud had at Gold Saucer. That means a non-optional scene referenced one version of an optional scene--logically, that means that alongside the scene it was mentioned in, her being the date is default/canon as well.

That's interesting. I wasn't claiming that she wasn't but that maybe there was a possibility. Regardless Cloud needs to hook up with Tifa. I mean who else is there?