Arizona's New Laws

[CassinoChips]

Fresh on the heels of signing a new law which requires police officers with "reasonable suspicion" of a person's citizenship status to have them prove what country they are a citizen of, Arizona's Governor Brewer has now enacted legislation that bars ethnic studies from all public schools. The rationale behind the law was that ethnic studies classes could initiate "resentment" towards the U.S. government, and tension between races.

Thoughts? Opinions? Feel free to discuss either the immigration bill or the ethnic studies bill, or both.

 

[Valvalis]

Well TBH I'm not really familiar with the immigration bill, but I do think it's a shame to get rid of the ethnic studies classes. The purpose of those classes is not to draw up tension but to help people learn about different cultures, and the lessons should (in theory) be taught from a completely neutral viewpoint. If students in this country want to work in fields such as anthropology or sociology, this will not help them; hopefully they'd still be able to study other cultures in Arizona colleges, but it would be better if they could get a jumpstart somewhere within grades K-12. Plus, you'd think such classes should further a better understanding between different cultures, rather than alienating them from each other

 

[GBJoker]

It would work if teachers didn't give a biased view on cultures other than America. My entire elementary school age I was taught how evil America was/is during virtually all periods of history. So I think it's a very good idea to remove "ethnic studies" from 12th grade and lower. If some one wants to learn foreign cultures for a career, there's college. If for a hobby, there's the internet, and virtually ALL other forms of media.

As for the immigration laws; What people don't seem to understand is that there are already FEDERAL laws about immigration. That's the "il" part of being an ILlegal immigrant. In essence, all Arizona is doing is enforcing the federal laws on a state level. If there's racial profiling because of it, tough. Hell, all the whites I've met over the years think hispanics are some of the coolest people around, and then become the most contradictive rats in the world by saying they'd never board a plane that had even one Arab on it.

 

[Donald Trump]

It would work if teachers didn't give a biased view on cultures other than America. My entire elementary school age I was taught how evil America was/is during virtually all periods of history. So I think it's a very good idea to remove "ethnic studies" from 12th grade and lower. If some one wants to learn foreign cultures for a career, there's college. If for a hobby, there's the internet, and virtually ALL other forms of media.

Don't you Americans pledge allegiance or something like that at school? There's no better way to indoctrinate someone then that. The internet is massively unreliable as are other forms of media, most people don't start learning about something new when they go to university. Removing ethnic studies seems a good way of increasing ignorance towards minorities, and not wanting to create tension is bullshit, you could say that of history and other subjects.

As for the immigration laws; What people don't seem to understand is that there are already FEDERAL laws about immigration. That's the "il" part of being an ILlegal immigrant. In essence, all Arizona is doing is enforcing the federal laws on a state level. If there's racial profiling because of it, tough. Hell, all the whites I've met over the years think hispanics are some of the coolest people around, and then become the most contradictive rats in the world by saying they'd never board a plane that had even one Arab on it.

So much for guilty until proven innocent. I thought that the rich elite liked illegal immigrants because they did jobs white people wouldn't do? So why get rid of them. Plus it's open to abuse, the kind of people that join the police are hardly well educated or open minded on the whole.

 

[CassinoChips]

The question I would have in regards to the ethnic studies bill is that it doesn't say "public K-12 schools." It says "public schools." University of Arizona and Arizona State University are public schools. So are they not allowed to teach Latin American studies at the University level now?

My entire elementary school age I was taught how evil America was/is during virtually all periods of history.

That's because the U.S. has been evil during virtually all periods of history. Removing the negative aspects of U.S. history is a disservice to all Americans, and especially American children/young adults in the education system. It robs them of a chance to think critically about the past. Heroification of one's ancestors is poor history.

As for the immigration laws; What people don't seem to understand is that there are already FEDERAL laws about immigration.

Then why the need for a new law? Quickly followed by a new law that tries to justify this one? If it's already on the books, then enforce it. And my concern here isn't with illegal immigrants. It's with legal citizens having their citizenship question, solely based on their appearance. That flies in the face of the Fourteenth Amendment.

 

[GBJoker]

Don't you Americans pledge allegiance or something like that at school? There's no better way to indoctrinate someone then that. The internet is massively unreliable as are other forms of media, most people don't start learning about something new when they go to university. Removing ethnic studies seems a good way of increasing ignorance towards minorities, and not wanting to create tension is bullshit, you could say that of history and other subjects.

None of the schools I went to said the pledge until 9th grade. And then, fortunately, the teacher I had for the equivalent of "homeroom" said we didn't have to take part in it. I never said it because it implies alliance to religion as well as America.

It's one thing to tell students to respect various nations and ideologies throughout the world and history, it's entirely different to say that Americans are the ass-f's of the human race.

So much for guilty until proven innocent. I thought that the rich elite liked illegal immigrants because they did jobs white people wouldn't do? So why get rid of them. Plus it's open to abuse, the kind of people that join the police are hardly well educated or open minded on the whole.

There's barely any "rich elite." If you think all white people are rich, boy do I feel sorry for you. And while yes, a lot of people join the police force for the same reason as the military (Best job they can get at their economic/educational level), it's not nearly as abused as you would think.

Hell, I know several hispanics who make far more money than I ever have.

The question I would have in regards to the ethnic studies bill is that it doesn't say "public K-12 schools." It says "public schools." University of Arizona and Arizona State University are public schools. So are they not allowed to teach Latin American studies at the University level now?

I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one. Colleges of any type should have as many areas of study as physically or financially possible.

That's because the U.S. has been evil during virtually all periods of history. Removing the negative aspects of U.S. history is a disservice to all Americans, and especially American children/young adults in the education system. It robs them of a chance to think critically about the past. Heroification of one's ancestors is poor history.

We were evil when we were the sole place for atheists, Germans, Irish, and several others to escape religious prosecution? Roughly 1750-1850. What about for Asians escaping poverty and dictatorship? Roughly 1900-1935. Mexicans escaping poverty? Roughly 1900-1950s. Yeah, America is pure bloody evil. Not to mention several nations modeling their constitution and government after ours, seeing as how that allows for the common people of the nation to be at least slightly heard.

Then why the need for a new law? Quickly followed by a new law that tries to justify this one? If it's already on the books, then enforce it. And my concern here isn't with illegal immigrants. It's with legal citizens having their citizenship question, solely based on their appearance. That flies in the face of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Maybe because... It wasn't being enforced?

And how is being forced to carry around a card or piece of paper that proves citizenship and/or birth any different than being forced to carry around insurance? Something that simple clearly couldn't show the cops that you're a citizen of the US. Obviously, you need to have an entire filing cabinet in your trunk at all times.

 

[CassinoChips]

We were evil when we were the sole place for atheists, Germans, Irish, and several others to escape religious prosecution? Roughly 1750-1850. What about for Asians escaping poverty and dictatorship? Roughly 1900-1935. Mexicans escaping poverty? Roughly 1900-1950s. Yeah, America is pure bloody evil. Not to mention several nations modeling their constitution and government after ours, seeing as how that allows for the common people of the nation to be at least slightly heard.

Germans, Irish, and several others faced religious and ethnic persecution when they got here, too. Chinese immigrant workers in the late 1800s were treated little better than slaves. Japanese internment camps during WW2. The consistent meddling in Latin America, installing and removing dictators.

For every positive element of American history, there is a negative one. And I think we can learn more from what we did wrong. It's just as important to teach the negative elements. It shows that our ancestors weren't perfect, and that they had decisions to make. They didn't just automatically stumble upon the right formula. We are a nation built on trial and error.

And how is being forced to carry around a card or piece of paper that proves citizenship and/or birth any different than being forced to carry around insurance?

It isn't. What would be different is if you were forced to show your proof of insurance simply because of an arbitrary genetic manifestation.

It's already been shown to be flawed. The truck driver who was arrested in Maricopa County not long after the bill was passed is proof of this. He presented his driver's license and another form of ID to a police officer. The officer came back and said he had to show his birth certificate, then arrested him. And he's a U.S. citizen. Unfortunately for him, he is of Hispanic descent, and has an accent.

 

[GBJoker]

Germans, Irish, and several others faced religious and ethnic persecution when they got here, too. Chinese immigrant workers in the late 1800s were treated little better than slaves. Japanese internment camps during WW2. The consistent meddling in Latin America, installing and removing dictators.

My point was that in my school we were taught all that, and how EVERY SINGLE OTHER country was good, no matter what. We weren't taught anything good about America except that it was created.

For every positive element of American history, there is a negative one. And I think we can learn more from what we did wrong. It's just as important to teach the negative elements. It shows that our ancestors weren't perfect, and that they had decisions to make. They didn't just automatically stumble upon the right formula. We are a nation built on trial and error.

And that's fine. It's not okay to teach our kids that we need to completely dismantle the entire country because it's pure evil. Other countries don't bow down to American's wishes when we immigrate there, why should we do the same for hispanics?

It isn't. What would be different is if you were forced to show your proof of insurance simply because of an arbitrary genetic manifestation.

Missed my point completely. The democrat congress/executive branch in power now wants us to carry around proof of insurance no matter what health problems we have, if any. Is it really so hard to carry around a card that would sum up birth, nationality, etc?

It's already been shown to be flawed. The truck driver who was arrested in Maricopa County not long after the bill was passed is proof of this. He presented his driver's license and another form of ID to a police officer. The officer came back and said he had to show his birth certificate, then arrested him. And he's a U.S. citizen. Unfortunately for him, he is of Hispanic descent, and has an accent.

Eh, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I'm perfectly okay with getting pulled over.

 

[CassinoChips]

My point was that in my school we were taught all that, and how EVERY SINGLE OTHER country was good, no matter what. We weren't taught anything good about America except that it was created.

Which is just as flawed as teaching only the positive aspects.

And that's fine. It's not okay to teach our kids that we need to completely dismantle the entire country because it's pure evil. Other countries don't bow down to American's wishes when we immigrate there, why should we do the same for hispanics?

I don't think anyone's advocating dismantling the country, or saying it's pure evil. And Americans don't emigrate en masse.

Missed my point completely. The democrat congress/executive branch in power now wants us to carry around proof of insurance no matter what health problems we have, if any. Is it really so hard to carry around a card that would sum up birth, nationality, etc?

Show me the "carry around insurance" part.

Hard? No. Constitutional? Nope.

 

[Donald Trump]

There's barely any "rich elite." If you think all white people are rich, boy do I feel sorry for you. And while yes, a lot of people join the police force for the same reason as the military (Best job they can get at their economic/educational level), it's not nearly as abused as you would think.

By definition there's very few people who qualify as the rich elite. Nonetheless they still effectpolicy decisions, just look how effective the Jewish lobby is and the NRA are. Not that they necessarily qualify as being members of the rich elite.
I never said all white people were rich, nor did I imply it.
I think are quite bad, those three black guys that were shot in New York a couple of years ago.
The police here are fairly bad, I'm sure it's not much different in America.

 

[Æon Flux]

Then why the need for a new law? Quickly followed by a new law that tries to justify this one? If it's already on the books, then enforce it. And my concern here isn't with illegal immigrants. It's with legal citizens having their citizenship question, solely based on their appearance. That flies in the face of the Fourteenth Amendment.

I can actually see how this bill might go bad since I have a brief stint in having cops pull me over daily while I walked to work....granted it was at five am but for an entire two weeks I had cops stoping me and requesting ID from me and just questioning me period.
Everytime without fail I was told its because I looked young and could have been a runaway....
After one particularly bad encouunter,I stoped for som ciggs befor work and ended up almost getting arrested because a cop pulled up next to me and started asking me where I was going i said work and continued walking ....this had already happend to me five days in a row without a break in between and I was livid majorly so so when he yelled at me to stop walking I told him to F-off and yelled out my moms phone number and told him If he wanted my id he can go F-ing ask her for my age.....
Actually I was alot worse but after being asked over and over and over again these things tend to piss people off.
Im all for immagration controll but I can understand how people might feel enraged over having this type of thing done to them daily based on their lookes....
After a while it stopps being a concern and tends to just become irksome and makes people act out with rage because its not fair.

Cops can already pull people over for any redundant reason they have and request ID Arizona just tweaked an already existing thing to make it seem more powerfull I guess,in their opinion'

I understand dealing with illigal immagrints is a major issue but there are remadies such as fining employers outragious fees for employing them,having legal citizen papers required for housing,schooling ect....There are alot of things thet can be done besides this Bill,although it was edited to add they have to have a reason beyond appearence to pull someone over,I doth roll my eyes at this

Illigal Immigration is a big problem and im all for fixing it but pissing people off daily is not the wisest move to do imo.Although im sure once a few lawsuits get slapped against the state for police harassment it will probably be rendered null.

 

[Shu]

Just going off the OP's thread here, since I know this is a pretty straight laced thread, I'm going to go ahead and say this was wrong.

I'm the type of person where when the opportunity arises I want to know as much about someones culture as I can from other countries. No offense to Mexico, but this is excluding them, though if Mayans were still about I would love to learn more about their past.

There will always be anti-American, anti-UK, anti-Australian, anti-Palestinian and etc.. spread about due to people having strong nationalistic ties to where they were from originally. Most folks here in America were decendants of immigrants that came over on a boat years ago, so in my opinion we have no reason to declare a ban on ethnic classes. If anything it creates more of what we have in common, than big groups of Anti-USA stuff. Though there will be some folks who are against this nation who live here, but like I said before, that exists everywhere, and if they truly wanted to meet, they would do it anyway elsewhere.

Stupid law, for ignorant people in my honest opinion.