Abortion - your views.

[Bun]

While adoption can be a great thing, chances are a child won't be adopted right away and have to live in some kind of foster care system for a while until they are adopted (if ever). What a lot of people don't know is that the foster care system in the United States and all over the world are absolutely not perfect. In fact, it's a hit or miss. There is just as much of a chance the child will end up in a home (or several) that is loving and nourishing, or abusive and just downright not good for the child at all.

My mother, aunt (they were both adopted by the same family) and my father were all adopted after their mother's gave birth from acidentally getting pregnant, but they were lucky to have found families that gave them good lives...although I've heard some stories, lol.

Anyway, it's just very important to realize that something meant to be good (adoption) is not always such. There is a massive number of kids needed to be adopted in the states alone; not considering the rest of the world, and a good amount of those kids won't even be adopted.

 

[Dean Winchester]

What I usually say to any woman who wants to commit abortion is: "Your body, your conscience, your guilt". I judge not because simply I am not the one enduring the hardships of bringing to the world a human being who has not asked (accidently) to be brought to this world. No human has the right to determine whether or not such actions can be considered as either Good or Evil, Ethic or not simply because it would require a criteria way beyond common human knowledge. It would require to accurately and flawlessly define what can be considered as Good and Evil, and then adapt those definitions to the situation. Moreover, it would require someone to stand from an unbiased position, which is likely quite impossible since we all develop bias towards any kind of religious (or personal morality/ethics) beliefs.

First of all, it would be better to prevent bringing children accidenly to this world. If it can not be prevented, or if it was a result of a sexual assault, then the decision rests alone on the woman since it is HER body. No one has the right to rule over a woman's body except that woman herself.

Lastly, I always tell people: "Before judging someone who has incurred in abortion...what would you do if you were in her place? More importantly, think outside the religious bubble for once...and think as if it were YOU..."

Besides, there are lots of people who commit murder in so many ways without knowing...in the end...we all share some of the guilt.

 

[Seed]

I'm not going to pretend that I know whether or not it is ok to abort a baby that comes as a result of rape.
I do know it is wrong in any other situation though.
But what I don't get is how people think it's ok just because the baby supposedly can't feel itself being torn apart. If I shot someone in the head and they had no idea it was coming and it killed them instantly it would still be murder. They didn't feel it or know it was happening and I just felt like not having them around so I get to kill them? Not so. Btw...the baby being inside the woman's body doesn't make it ok for her to kill it. If I was a woman would it be ok if I stuck a guys finger in me then shot him in the head?

 

[bitteroldman]

I'm not going to pretend that I know whether or not it is ok to abort a baby that comes as a result of rape.
I do know it is wrong in any other situation though.
But what I don't get is how people think it's ok just because the baby supposedly can't feel itself being torn apart. If I shot someone in the head and they had no idea it was coming and it killed them instantly it would still be murder. They didn't feel it or know it was happening and I just felt like not having them around so I get to kill them? Not so. Btw...the baby being inside the woman's body doesn't make it ok for her to kill it. If I was a woman would it be ok if I stuck a guys finger in me then shot him in the head?

Good sir, you have just won the thread.
My views on abortion are that it sucks. Child of incest? Still a child. Child of rape? Still a child. Why should one trauma be answered with another? (It is well-documented that this can be very traumatizing for the lady involved.)

Let me tell you a story WITHOUT my bitteroldman face on.
When my wife was pregnant with our first, a cyst was discovered on her ovary. We discovered this because, two weeks after finding she was pregnant, she started puking on Friday, and didn't stop until Sunday evening. I took her in to the hospital, and they suggested that she was full-term and going into labor (remember, we only thought the baby was two weeks old). However, they sent her upstairs for an ultrasound and showed us this little peanut-looking thing that was our child. Then they showed us the watermelon-looking thing that was the cyst. They gave us the options, with only vocalizing one: to save my unborn child, my wife would have to risk herself and live with this thing until her second trimester, when the baby could survive anesthesia so they could operate on my wife. The other option they didn't say out loud, as they stared at us with eyes agape, was to have the surgery now--since the thing was seriously massive in size, and could break up at any time--which would almost certainly kill our child. My wife didn't bat an eye, and told them without asking me that this was our baby, and she was his mother; of course she would wait for the surgery. She is my hero.
My mom, and perhaps her dad, tried to pressure my wife into changing her mind. My mom tried to pressure me into changing it for her. No was my wife's answer (though, no, I did not try to change her mind and played nurse for the following three months).
My wife lost her job over this. She was seriously sick for three and a half months because of this. But she took it. They performed a partial historectomy (sp?) in March of 2004, and also removed the intact cyst, weighing over eighteen pounds and being the size of a large watermelon. An interesting note the surgeon told us? SHE LOOKED AT MY UNBORN SON WHILE MY WIFE WAS CUT OPEN. (Quick question: since he was actually exposed to the outer world before being born, would abortion apply to him?)
Today, my wife is fine.
My son had to go through two bouts of chemotherapy at one and three years old. I don't see any difference in the battle we walked with him before he was born, and the two that came after. Today, he is well. It took courage and commitment for my wife to do this for my son. I don't see why a precedent for less should be set.
However, we also need to support single mothers better, as well as teenage mothers, etc. Pregnancy is almost always scary. How much more so, when there is no support system, or a harmful background? I want to end abortion, and I want a viable, productive alternative to take its place.

*bitteroldmask comes back on*
Whippersnappers.

 

[Shu]

Good sir, you have just won the thread.
My views on abortion are that it sucks. Child of incest? Still a child. Child of rape? Still a child. Why should one trauma be answered with another? (It is well-documented that this can be very traumatizing for the lady involved.)

No sir. It is not a child. It is an organism. It has no consciousness, no ability to love yet.

Rape is the most awful thing known to women. If it causes her to become pregnant as well, then that's double harsh.

Step away from the bible and take this from another approach. You might love kids, you might love babies, you might do as you will but let's put this into perspective.

A 13 year old girl comes home to find her dad totally drunk. He has beaten and battered his wife and turns to his daughter. Instead of just laying into her with his hands, he has the gutless ball-less nature to force himself on her and rape her. She has no one to tell and also trusts no one. When her school finds out that she is pregnant they let her go, because of an image thing. She holds it in, and miscarriages a child in the 3rd trimester. In the next three weeks her father continues his abusive path and when she can't take anymore she puts a rope around her neck and takes her own life.

I would burn the bible in front of my paps before letting a kid go through that torture. I love people, I severely do, but when a person does not want a kid and/or not ready... IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE!

Choices are what we were given in this world. If we are not allowed to take them, then we are as good as the animals who live outside. Not to say all choices are good, but still people need to have the ability to take the choice unless of course it is murder or something along those lines.

To me this is not murder. No way, no how.

 

[Tielknight]

The Child, The Child, The Child, that seems to repeat itself. What about the would-be mother? Mostly, I would say no, if anything, they can put the child up for adoption, their are plenty of families that cannot have kids of their own. In some cases, like rape victims, it SHOULD be the mothers decision, why? Because it was a forced pregnancy. Way different from your average one-night-stand and oops-i'm-pregnant, in rape cases, the victim has no choice. The only other exception i could see is if continuing the pregnancy would threaten the mothers life (I know from family experience on this one).

Besides those 2, maybe something else i can't think of, their isn't really any reason to terminate a pregnancy.

(let the multi-quote breakdowns begin.)

 

[Ness]

I'm not going to pretend that I know whether or not it is ok to abort a baby that comes as a result of rape.
I do know it is wrong in any other situation though.
But what I don't get is how people think it's ok just because the baby supposedly can't feel itself being torn apart. If I shot someone in the head and they had no idea it was coming and it killed them instantly it would still be murder. They didn't feel it or know it was happening and I just felt like not having them around so I get to kill them? Not so. Btw...the baby being inside the woman's body doesn't make it ok for her to kill it. If I was a woman would it be ok if I stuck a guys finger in me then shot him in the head?

You probably should not pretend that you know whether or not it is okay to abort a baby, period.

I don't think that I'm going to bother to respond to your absurd analogy, it's been answered to well-enough below.

<Insert Story Here>

A good story, to be sure, and I'm genuinely glad that everything worked out well for the members of your family.

I wonder what the story "proves" though, in terms of validation of your views on abortion. I suppose, since things worked out well, that the position you took was justified, but what if things went the other way? I don't mean to suggest that such an outcome is desirable, but I have a feeling you wouldn't feel that "abortion sucks" if things had worked out differently.

The Child, The Child, The Child, that seems to repeat itself. What about the would-be mother?

I actually think that this is a good question to ask. What about the mother...the person who, ironically, is most forgotten in debates regarding abortion.

Another irony is that the majority of the debate is carried on by men. There are few issues for which men are less qualified to argue than the issue of abortion. I mean, it's acceptable for us to have our views/opinions, but we need to keep in mind that...well, we don't really know, do we? We'll never experience the joy/pain of growing another human being inside of us.

There's a connection there that men can never understand...and this is the reason I feel men are slightly unqualified to speak on this issue. That's why they should maintain the right to choose...since they're really the only ones qualified to make such a decision. A person can personally disagree with a practice, but they must also recognize they are not qualified to make that decision for all of society.

 

[bitteroldman]

But that 'baby' wasn't aware it was alive in the first place, the person being shot in the head would have. How can you compare shooting someone in the head to abortion? It's ludicrous

But the baby was alive. Awareness isn't a classification for life. Is it okay to shoot comatose people because they're no longer aware of being alive, regardless of whatever their wishes may be? It can be compared to shooting someone in the head because it is forcefully ending a human life.

I'm on the pill, there's no way I'm having another child, one is enough for me. So if by some freak accident the pil decided it was funny not to work, I'd have an abortion. I don't WANT anymore children. It's my body, MY choice. And for the record, only reason I got pregnant FIRST time round was because he told me he couldn't have kids, and Id been with him 3 years, so you expect you'd be able to trust someone after that time. He wanted kids, I didn't, and shock horror, looks who's a single mum now

So don't try telling me Im wrong or immoral if I beleive in pro-choice.

That's sick. What he did. It happens all the time. But the wrongs of getting played and abortion are two different debates.

If abortions became illegal, there would be a lot of back alley abortions going on. I had post natal depression when I had my daughter. I'm not willing to put myself through that again

Murder's illegal. What do you know? There are a lot of back alley murders going on. What is needed is some education on the matter.
Before, unwanted/extramarital pregnancies were a hush-hush scandal. Today it's common and pretty well accepted. I don't think as many folks would be turning to something dangerous and illegal to avoid a little embarrassment as you think. Educate them on the risks and introduce support programs for these exact situations, and this number goes way down.

No sir. It is not a child. It is an organism. It has no consciousness, no ability to love yet.

Sir, I'm not too sure you know what a child is. What about people with autism? Are they not real children? Just organisms? The ability to love, and consciousness aren't what makes a kid a kid. It's thinking like this that discriminates against people with mental conditions, and it doesn't make abortion okay.

Rape is the most awful thing known to women. If it causes her to become pregnant as well, then that's double harsh.

I agree completely. I was once involved with a woman who'd been raped and abused as a child. The scars are horrible.

Step away from the bible and take this from another approach. You might love kids, you might love babies, you might do as you will but let's put this into perspective.

I didn't quote the Bible. But I will not step away from it. And that is a totally different debate altogether, unless you want to derail this one?

A 13 year old girl comes home to find her dad totally drunk. He has beaten and battered his wife and turns to his daughter. Instead of just laying into her with his hands, he has the gutless ball-less nature to force himself on her and rape her. She has no one to tell and also trusts no one. When her school finds out that she is pregnant they let her go, because of an image thing. She holds it in, and miscarriages a child in the 3rd trimester. In the next three weeks her father continues his abusive path and when she can't take anymore she puts a rope around her neck and takes her own life.

And yet, the current abortion laws that allow this child to get an abortion without parental consent actually ALLOW this horrible situation to continue. You're not protecting kids.
Actually, I've known of some kids who get abortions and kill themselves out of shame. So who wins?
A horrible situation has to be dealt with as a personal tragedy. Writing laws around them doesn't work, it just makes a system with loopholes that loses people in the process. This girl needs a place to go, because she's likely to kill herself no matter what happens. I'm sorry, have you ever dealt with suicidal people? Do you know any of the mindset that goes with it?
This particular girl you describe kills herself because she is being abused. Abortion does not save her, because either way the abuse continues. Your example fails.
Beyond that, so few abortions are based on rape and incest that to base the law on those cases is wrong in itself. It begs to abuse the system.

I would burn the bible in front of my paps before letting a kid go through that torture. I love people, I severely do, but when a person does not want a kid and/or not ready... IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE!

If a person does not want a kid, their first option is to not have sex. Second, they can use protection. Third, they can give it up for adoption. There are choices all along that road that don't involve killing somebody. In the case of rape, I fail to see how an abortion actually helps someone get over their tragedy. Kind of the opposite, actually, because it puts a person in a fragile state with a fragile psyche do something that cannot be taken back. This is not a good formula.

Choices are what we were given in this world. If we are not allowed to take them, then we are as good as the animals who live outside. Not to say all choices are good, but still people need to have the ability to take the choice unless of course it is murder or something along those lines.

To me this is not murder. No way, no how.

That's all you needed to say, that you disagree with me. I disagree with you too. Only I do it better

A good story, to be sure, and I'm genuinely glad that everything worked out well for the members of your family.

I wonder what the story "proves" though, in terms of validation of your views on abortion. I suppose, since things worked out well, that the position you took was justified, but what if things went the other way? I don't mean to suggest that such an outcome is desirable, but I have a feeling you wouldn't feel that "abortion sucks" if things had worked out differently.

I thought it was interesting that my son was introduced to the outside world before being born. I've heard that become the qualification for human life in the past. And at any rate, it validates my position because we backed up our position. We went to bat for our kid. So when you hear me say abortion is wrong, you hear a man who could have taken a seemingly safer, easier road than he did. I'm not full of hot air; I did what I said. So the argument of "What if it didn't work out" is exactly void against me, because we knew the risks and spit in their face. The argument of putting myself in someone else's shoes is exactly void, because it didn't get much more scary than that. To this day, if my wife throws up (she has a very weak stomach) I have to go off to be by myself, because I go back to that crazy stupid weekend when she was literally throwing up every fifteen minutes, and the months after when she was throwing up every few days.
What you're doing is the same thing as talking to someone who climbed a mountain, wondering how I'd feel about it if my wife had fallen and died, would I hate mountain climbing. Maybe, maybe not. This is the road I've travelled, and this is the man you're talking to. "If" doesn't matter.

I actually think that this is a good question to ask. What about the mother...the person who, ironically, is most forgotten in debates regarding abortion.

Another irony is that the majority of the debate is carried on by men. There are few issues for which men are less qualified to argue than the issue of abortion. I mean, it's acceptable for us to have our views/opinions, but we need to keep in mind that...well, we don't really know, do we? We'll never experience the joy/pain of growing another human being inside of us.

There's a connection there that men can never understand...and this is the reason I feel men are slightly unqualified to speak on this issue. That's why they should maintain the right to choose...since they're really the only ones qualified to make such a decision. A person can personally disagree with a practice, but they must also recognize they are not qualified to make that decision for all of society.

So a father has no say over the life of his child?

THIS post wins the thread. So many people view abortion as black and white, it's never the case. OH BUT IT R MURDER. No it isn't, as stated above this 'child' has no conciense no thoughts or feelings, it registers pain after X amount of months sure (can't remember when, sorry) but then, that is what the cut off should be for, I beleive that the limit for abortion should be lowerd, 6 months is too much, unless it is medically unsafe to carry on the pregnancy

Oh, and the child even when born doesnt bond with the parent for a couple of weeks - its a natural survival instinct.



Although Im mostly inclined to agree there, Id also like to include accidental pregnancy (albeit rare, it DOES happen) like when contraception fails into that category.

Although, at the end of the day, it's the womans choice and NO one has the right to take that away from her, however selfish her actions may be

It's easy for people to say, Oh just put the kid up for adoption. Not only will you have family/friends AWARE taht you are pregnant, I mean lets face it, its not like you can keep it private liek an abortion - there's also the toll it taks on your body. Oh, and what could potentially arise afew years down the line. It's easy to say when youre not a woman and would have to be the one who had to deal with being pregnant for nine long months

I already replied to all this.
Kids these days. Yeesh.

 

[Saga]

I'm not going to pretend that I know whether or not it is ok to abort a baby that comes as a result of rape.
I do know it is wrong in any other situation though.
But what I don't get is how people think it's ok just because the baby supposedly can't feel itself being torn apart. If I shot someone in the head and they had no idea it was coming and it killed them instantly it would still be murder. They didn't feel it or know it was happening and I just felt like not having them around so I get to kill them? Not so. Btw...the baby being inside the woman's body doesn't make it ok for her to kill it. If I was a woman would it be ok if I stuck a guys finger in me then shot him in the head?

...

Good sir, you have just won the thread.
My views on abortion are that it sucks. Child of incest? Still a child. Child of rape? Still a child. Why should one trauma be answered with another? (It is well-documented that this can be very traumatizing for the lady involved.)

Yes, it IS very traumatizing for the woman involved, but that does NOT give you the right to sit there and say she isn't allowed to abort her own child if she's raped. It was NOT her choice to concieve that child.

However, we also need to support single mothers better, as well as teenage mothers, etc. Pregnancy is almost always scary. How much more so, when there is no support system, or a harmful background? I want to end abortion, and I want a viable, productive alternative to take its place.

And what exactly do you suggest? FORCE the woman to go through the pregnancy, the labor and then give up her child? I'm sorry, but I'm not having a guy tell me that I HAVE to give birth to a child I'm not personally ready for.

*bitteroldmask comes back on*
Whippersnappers.

You're twenty-seven ffs. Barely Five years older than myself. I'm not a damn whippersnappers in comparison. Nearly EVERYONE who has responded to you is THE SAME AGE GENERATION.

No sir. It is not a child. It is an organism. It has no consciousness, no ability to love yet.

Point.

Rape is the most awful thing known to women. If it causes her to become pregnant as well, then that's double harsh.

Point two.

I would burn the bible in front of my paps before letting a kid go through that torture. I love people, I severely do, but when a person does not want a kid and/or not ready... IT IS NOT MEANT TO BE!

Choices are what we were given in this world. If we are not allowed to take them, then we are as good as the animals who live outside. Not to say all choices are good, but still people need to have the ability to take the choice unless of course it is murder or something along those lines.

To me this is not murder. No way, no how.

Point Three.

The Child, The Child, The Child, that seems to repeat itself.What about the would-be mother? Mostly, I would say no, if anything, they can put the child up for adoption, their are plenty of families that cannot have kids of their own. In some cases, like rape victims, it SHOULD be the mothers decision, why? Because it was a forced pregnancy. Way different from your average one-night-stand and oops-i'm-pregnant, in rape cases, the victim has no choice. The only other exception i could see is if continuing the pregnancy would threaten the mothers life (I know from family experience on this one).

Thankyou. Why can't some of you see that it's not an easy decision for a woman to have an abortion to begin with? The would-be mother has to go through a hell of a lot physically AND emotionally.

But the baby was alive. Awareness isn't a classification for life. Is it okay to shoot comatose people because they're no longer aware of being alive, regardless of whatever their wishes may be? It can be compared to shooting someone in the head because it is forcefully ending a human life.

Sir, I'm not too sure you know what a child is. What about people with autism? Are they not real children? Just organisms? The ability to love, and consciousness aren't what makes a kid a kid. It's thinking like this that discriminates against people with mental conditions, and it doesn't make abortion okay.

For those first couple of months, the child isn't even called a baby, it's an embyro. A mass of cells. You can think of this as living if you like but comparing that to a child with autism... it's not a viable argument in the slighest.

If a person does not want a kid, their first option is to not have sex. Second, they can use protection. Third, they can give it up for adoption. There are choices all along that road that don't involve killing somebody. In the case of rape, I fail to see how an abortion actually helps someone get over their tragedy. Kind of the opposite, actually, because it puts a person in a fragile state with a fragile psyche do something that cannot be taken back. This is not a good formula.

I didn't want a kid, clearly, but that first option was not viable for me. Neither was the second. And I was a child myself. I was NOT going to go full term just to give up my child.

I've kept from posting in this thread for such a long time because it's an incredibly delicate subject for me, but your blatant ignorance is just too much. I've been there. I was just FOURTEEN years old when I fell pregnant due to being a victim of rape by my step father. Are you going to tell me I was wrong to abort that child? I did what I felt was right for me and that child. I was not going to carry it for nine months, and give birth to it only to give it up. That child would have grown up thinking it's biological mother didn't love it. I also could not bear the thought of bringing up the child myself. Fourteen years old... I was neither physically, nor emotionally ready for that sort of responsibility.

Kind of the opposite, actually, because it puts a person in a fragile state with a fragile psyche do something that cannot be taken back. This is not a good formula.

EXCUSE me? It was MY choice. I might have been fragile but I do NOT regret the decision I made even to this day. I don't care what you say to that. Deal with it.

That's all you needed to say, that you disagree with me. I disagree with you too. Only I do it better

... I see absolutely NO evidence of that.

So a father has no say over the life of his child?

Not in all case, no, he doesn't. Of course, he does if it's his wife or girlfriend but in the case of guys who sleep with a girl, she falls pregnant and he fucks off... that guy has NO right to tell her what she can and cannot do. The same goes for rape victims. The rapist has not right AT ALL to force the victim to keep the child.

I already replied to all this.
Kids these days. Yeesh.

I suggest you don't call someone a year younger than yourself a kid. Just because you're a *little* older, does NOT make you the smartest nerd in the class.


Oh and:

[Today 8:19 PM] Jimmeh: I wonder how many "pro-lifers" a)are women and b)have actually been pregnant.

Game - Match - Point.

You lose.

 

[The Illusive Man]

I'm sure I stated my views earlier but hes my take on abortion (may differ from my orginal slightly as life-experiences can and will change your views and opinions of things)

My biggest problem with Abortion is its no longer seen as just a "humane choice", but like some "god given right" and there are lots of people having abortions for all the wrong reasons, weather it be for the excuse that the child was a "mistake" or selfish reasons in the case of people in the public eye as they do it to maintain there "career" popularising abortion as the "in thing" to do.

Now, I have no problem with Abortions, as long as they are for all the right reasons, and as long as they are done within a reasonable time frame (less than 6 months).

I find it unacceptable that just because someone was stupid enough to not use contraception with there partner that they should have an abortion as its not like they have never been warned, and that they are in a poor position to provide for the child (unless they both decide they do not wish for a child).

I find abortion acceptable in the following situations however:

1. There is a joint desicion between the parents that the child is unwanted.
2. Rape.
3. Underage pregnancy.
4. Medical Complications.
5. An inability to provide for the child when they are born.

In other situations, such as a single woman that went on a one night stand, got knocked up while drunk and doesnt want the child because "she isnt ready" or "its bad for her career", I really do find acceptable at all for several reasons.

1. The potential father is not being consulted, afterall it takes 2 to tango.
2. Being Drunk is no excuse, you still have self awareness and its not an argument that stands up in court for anything so why should it vouch for you getting an abortion?
3. If your just interested in your career, your just being selfish, you can always hire a babysitter or a nanny, or get family to help out and still have a successful career.

For the biggest part, In all honesty, Abortion cant be viewed as black and white, to do such a thing shows not only a lack of understanding, but a lack of humanity, What if the child was given a 99% chance (and its been known to happen) of being born in extremely dire health and had a high mortality rate (meaning theres a good chance the child would be a Still-birth) and could never live a "normal life"?

What if the birth of the child could kill both the child and the mother?

What if the child was a product of rape?

Abortion is very much a shade of grey, in many ways it can be viewed as an "evil", but its a neccessary "evil" and often the lesser of "two evils", sometimes Abortions are neccessary and can save people are great deal of heartache and grief of loss.....but Abortions are not neccessarly an easy, guilt free and painless choice either....

Abortions can be very scaring both mentally and physically, and I cannot begin to understand the horror that women that do choose this procedure undergo, and the mental anguish that follows them afterwards, but I respect them as they made that choice for several reasons and it wasnt a stupid choice made on the whim of a 5 minute conversation.

To those of you that view Abortion as Murder, its time to put down the zealous nature, the preaching and the outdated views of the church and open your eyes to the truth of WHY people undergo such procedures, afterall, the Church are not exactly all "righteous and correct" as they would have you believe.....look up history of the holy wars, excommunications and the papal states and you'll see one of the most ruthless and murderous dicatorships of the middle ages....all in the name of God...

So think about it before you brand something that is usually a "humane decision" as murder.

just my 2 1/2 pence.

 

[Bambi]

If it was a drunken one night stand, chances are the woman has no means of contact anyway. And Im guessing if she just text and said oh hey, btw, Im pregnant, Im sure he would run a mile anyway

I wouldn't recommend being a single parent to anyone, it's hard work, but more often than not, especially in younger couple cases, after a child is born, the relationship breaks down because of the strain it puts on the relationship. And when that happens, who is more likely to be the single parent? The WOMAN, thats why I feel that the decision ULTIMATELY should rest with the woman
SURE it takes 2 to tango, but its mostly the man that fucks off

I was with my ex 3 years, Ellie got to 3 months before I sent him packing, useless waste of space that he was.

Of course if the couple is married or have been together for years, then it's a whole different ball game

 

[Ness]

I think that people need to remember one thing: this isn't a black-and-white issue.

It's easy to be dogmatic about an issue such as abortion, especially if you've never been involved in a situation that calls for such a difficult decision. A lot of certain people's views on abortion as social policy come down to this, at the very core:

"Since I don't agree with it, no one should be able to do it!"

This is absurd.

It's okay for people to disagree PERSONALLY with the practice of abortion. If you say that you wouldn't ever get one, fine. As far as I'm concerned, though, I wouldn't even make a statement like that. I'm not qualified, because I'll never be in a situation like that, because I'm not a woman. I don't know how I would act if it was actually my decision to make...especially if I was alone and scared. It's incredibly presumptuous to not only assume that the way you would make the decision is always right, but to require that everyone follows your moral compass.

Furthermore, I think that people who support "situational abortion" are being somewhat inconsistent. There shouldn't be a set of rules to determine whether or not it's acceptable for another person to make a particular choice. No adult should have the right to make another adult's decisions for them, whether they agree or not. Whether anyone finds abortion personally wrong is irrelevant to the issue of choice: let the person actually CHOOSING sort out their own morality.

 

[Seed]

But that 'baby' wasn't aware it was alive in the first place, the person being shot in the head would have.

So you agree that it is alive? Even if it isn't aware of it yet?
That's why it's murder. It's ALIVE, and no matter what stage it's at it is human.

Do they have artificial wombs? That they can put unborn babies in? I would agree with that if a woman did not want to carry it. Not just killing it though.

 

[Seed]

I don't have a problem killing animals, they are not human.

It is obvious I'm not going to change anyone's mind,
and nobody is going to change mine, so I'm finished in this thread.

 

[Ness]

So you agree that it is alive? Even if it isn't aware of it yet?
That's why it's murder. It's ALIVE, and no matter what stage it's at it is human.

Would you argue that an egg is just as much of a chicken as a real chicken? Make sure the next time you post that you actually address this question, I'm curious as to how you answer it.

Do they have artificial wombs? That they can put unborn babies in? I would agree with that if a woman did not want to carry it. Not just killing it though.

What does this have to do with anything? How does the (odd) idea of artificial wombs factor into this discussion?

It is obvious I'm not going to change anyone's mind,
and nobody is going to change mine, so I'm finished in this thread.

Well, that's a very mature way to handle a debate. You can't get upset if you come to debate and no one is convinced of your position, especially if the "evidence" you've offered is somewhat...lacking.

 

[Bambi]

I don't have a problem killing animals, they are not human.

No, but they are still ALIVE aren't they, just like a growing fetus/embryo isnt human, aye?

 

[Seed]

Ok last post,
Albedo, I would say it was a chicken.
As for the artificial womb thing, I was saying I would agree with alternate ways for
the woman to not have to carry the baby if they didn't want to.
Also, I'm not upset at all, I'm tired of this topic, and wasting my time here.

Auron, I don't get your point.
It's an animal, killing it is not murder, no matter what stage.
Killing an unborn human is still killing a human.
If it is indeed considered "human".
Imo it is...in your opinion it isn't.

None of anyone's views have tarnished my view of them,
hopefully the same goes for the way you view me, and treat me around the forum.
I don't want to talk about the same thing forever,
I've posted here a few times now I'm done.
You've heard my opinion and I have heard yours.

Btw...the reason I was letting you know that I'm done
is so that everyone knows I won't respond to them, and that I'm not just
ignoring them.

 

[Caedus]

I'll state my opinions, but I'm not in this to persuade anyone to come to the dark side or the light side. It doesn't matter either way.
If you're raped and have a baby you can't take care of or don't want, adopt it out; don't kill it. It may never know you and you may never know him/her, but at least they'll have a chance at the life they've been given, regardless of the voluntary or involuntary method. Sex creates life, and so unfortunately can rape. Would you believe your decision to destroy life is justified by a such an act of perversion? If you can't take care of it, adopt it out.

As for pages 1-28, I'll keep my thoughts about those replies to myself.

 

[Ness]

Ok last post,
Albedo, I would say it was a chicken.

I don't agree, but I'll give you points for consistency, if nothing else.

As for the artificial womb thing, I was saying I would agree with alternate ways for the woman to not have to carry the baby if they didn't want to.

I see, but unfortunately, these ways are not available to us...hence this whole debate in the first place. If there was a way to safely remove a fetus from a woman and allow it to grow somewhere else, I'll bet this whole debate would become moot.

Auron, I don't get your point.
It's an animal, killing it is not murder, no matter what stage.
Killing an unborn human is still killing a human.
If it is indeed considered "human".
Imo it is...in your opinion it isn't.

At least you recognize that she is entitled to her opinion on the matter, that's the point that most people are trying to make. Each woman should have the right to choose for herself what is right and wrong in this regard. Just because they choose differently from how you think that you would choose doesn't mean that they should be condemned.

 

[Bambi]

If you're raped and have a baby you can't take care of or don't want, adopt it out; don't kill it. It may never know you and you may never know him/her, but at least they'll have a chance at the life they've been given, regardless of the voluntary or involuntary method. Sex creates life, and so unfortunately can rape. Would you believe your decision to destroy life is justified by a such an act of perversion? If you can't take care of it, adopt it out.

Been pregnant/given birth before have we? You have NO idea what its like. Imagine getting raped; not ONLY do you have the mental anguish, which believe me, takes some getting over, you have the PHYSICAL side too AND the fact that everyone knows you are pregnant. You would have to be some strong person to get through that, and being a dude, you would not have ANY idea what pregnancy is like, I HATED being pregnant, I narrowly escaped having to have a blood transfusion and I had it EASY, never mind giving birth on top of that which is the most painful thing i have EVER experienced in my LIFE