Aerith and her Faith

[Dionysos]

I’m sat here almost twitching to death because I don’t like leaving pages unread, but I can’t possibly keep up with all of this! I’ve tried to read it all since my post but I’m sad to admit that some of the last pages I didn’t read.

I’ll be covering some of the same ground as my previous post, and many other people’s previous posts in this, but I hope to expand a little more in other areas to my last one.

But it is there! There's a church, angels, prayers, the word gospel, crusade crosses--I'm not sure what else there should be to prove that the developers were trying to convey to the viewer that religion is what they were trying to do.


Are you kidding me? Point out one of my posts where I treated ANYONE with intollerance, zealousness, or the inability to accept opinions and views of others. I fully accept that you all would rather stick to the thought that there isn't religious forshadowing in VII--unlike you all, though, I've provided proof to show that Aerith and VII, have tons of religious symbolic-themes and I've YET to have any of those symbolic themes explained.


I just do not understand why the developers would put so many religious-theme symbolisms in the game if they weren't trying to convey to the viewer that religion IS in this game.

Can I please have that explained?


True. It's other things like the prayers that end with catholic-type angels aiding her, the whole Gospel-thing--It's everything in the game that makes me believe the developers were trying to convey religion. If they weren't, why put that much symbolic-themed things in the game, in the first place?

The references to religion are definitely there, and nobody could really argue otherwise. It is a mirror to our own world, however in FFVII’s world Christianity doesn’t exist because it is not in this game’s mythology. There is no mention of God, only the planet and the energy of the Lifestream. One of the messages of the game is that our very planet is the god we should protect, but that all Earthly religions are still compatible with that. Aerith (if we are to take her as representing all religions or even Faith itself) shows that protecting the planet is very important.

As I and many others have said, there is a lot of religious symbology in FFVII as a whole which would suggest that the FFVII world is to be seen as an imitation of Earth, but without the religions actually being carried to the FFVII planet along with their temples and churches. The reason I say this is because without worshippers I believe that a god or deity cannot exist, unless they make themselves known. There are no believers of God or Jesus Christ in FFVII and therefore I believe that the church of FFVII is empty.

I do however believe that the church was chosen for a reason, and not just idly. Perhaps it was just to be easily recognisable, but I think that it may go further than that. I personally think that it was to fit one of the messages of the game. A Greek style temple would have delivered a holy message just as efficiently, but they chose a church because of the era and style of people found in Midgar. While futuristic, I do see the city of Midgar as a reflection of the Industrial Revolution and the birth of science (well... Not the birth, but you know what I mean). As I said before, science is literally overshadowing religion in Midgar with the huge plate above the church. That’s not to say that the message of FFVII is that science is good and faith is bad, I’d say the opposite is actually true. I just think that the people of Midgar are people we are to feel sorry for as their lives are being ruined by Shinra, and a lot of the people must have lost any faith in whatever they may have had faith in. In my opinion I see Midgar as a reflection of the Western World, and how a lot of people no longer believe in God because of the birth of technology and science. The message by the end of the game is ultimately that faith is a very strong force, and a good thing to have, but that it doesn’t necessarily matter what you have faith in.

Alternatively you could argue that Shinra sees the capture of God by science; Jenova / Jehovah being in the lab at the Shinra HQ. While Jenova is considered a villain, that is only really due to the way the narrative of the game plays out. Jenova changes the world forever, and that is where the fear regarding Jenova lies (well… that and the fact that she killed off a lot of the Cetra). I count these changes as occurring since the fall of the Cetra, and the world was obviously very different since these times as people abandoned the worship of the planet. Jenova is used by a man to achieve his own aims (sounds like people who twist the word of God for their own gain), and he controls her to break out of the lab, confront Shinra and then to hunt for the Black Materia and such. You could view this as a war between a New God (which had in the past invaded the old faith), and science. Some people who are very extreme on Earth would happily claim that they partake in such a war themselves.

The church is the only Christianesque place in FFVII that I can recall. As for other places, they equally do not share the deities of Earth. Wutai is a very strong reflection of Japan and East Asia. Many of the cultural elements are clearly shared. However, Wutai is none of these things, and is a fictional town on a fictional continent. Buddha doesn’t exist, but Da Chao does. Interestingly (and I’m not sure if anyone else has mentioned this) Wutai’s guardian deity is mentioned as actually being Leviathan, though that is probably just so that the game can give a reason for giving the player the summon Leviathan at that point in the game. While nothing to do with the Christian aspect I am merely using Wutai to highlight how FFVII can reflect the religions of Earth, but does not carry the deities along with these references to the planet of FFVII. It is good to make a statement about our planet and its history through a game with obvious references, but to actually name the same deities would be a bit too much, and this and many other games which do the same try to avoid it. It’s hard to make a point and an interesting story if it is a little bit too close to home, and it would upset and confuse people.

The Cetra, of which Aerith is a descendant, are not Christians. These are representing the Ancients of our own Earth, but are not actually the ancients of our own Earth since FFVII is not Earth. The walls in the Temple of the Ancients depict Egyptian-style reliefs in order to illustrate how ancient the temple is. That this civilisation fell with the arrival of Jenova is another reference, in my opinion, to the changing world of our own Earth. Aerith, while in some ways she does look very much connected with Christianity (and with a stretch one could compare her to the Virgin Mary, but only really because of her purity and religious vibe), she returns to these ancient places, and she feels a presence there from the planet and from the people who once lived. She even prays in them, and it is in these places where Aerith fulfils most of her purpose in the original game, not in the church at Midgar. I admit that in Advent Children this changes and the main scene with the purifying water happens in the church, but the main scenes of this sort of nature in the original game occur in the Cetra holy places.

I believe Aeirth is the culmination of all things that have ever been holy on our planet. She’s a reference to all. If there was a Stonehenge on the FFVII world then she’d probably be praying / doing whatever there too. She’s multi-faith, but no faith at the same time. She’s an allegory. The faiths don’t exist in their Earth form on the FFVII world, but their symbology does, and it is purely for us, the players, to recognise this and interpret it as we will. I see a reflection of us in there, but I do not see us.

Then there are all of the summons. Now I think that the angels you ask about should be treated in the same way as the summons. FFVII is presumably set in a different universe to ours. They use mythological figures, gods and monsters in summons so that there is meaning to them which the players will understand without them having to detail a history for each summon within the game. It’s a way to invite the player into the world, and to help the player feel as if they really do belong there and are welcome there. The same is with the angels. I’m sure that if they had something other than angels floating from the sky then people wouldn’t understand what was happening. It is much easier to throw in what people expect from our own world, and therefore angels are the obvious holy beings to add, as angels are recognisable worldwide and do not need any advanced specialist knowledge in order to understand their meaning in that sort of a situation.

While personally I’d want something different from angels I can see why they put them in, as casual gamers would want to instantly recognise them instead of having a games’ own mythology explained to them. If three pink three-headed monkeys descended from the sky then people would be saying “WTF?!”, as not everybody would speak to an NPC that might explain a belief that people have regarding the existence of pink three-headed monkeys and their connections to granting good health and protection. Without speaking to this NPC a player will have great difficulty understanding what is going on, and it would be difficult to fit it into the central narrative of the game as it would disrupt the flow. Having angels in the game is a simple way for the players to instantly recognise what is happening to Aerith during her Limit Break.

In a similar vein, Sephiroth cannot possibly be summoning an all consuming ball of fire from the far reaches of our Solar System, destroying the planets of our Solar System and then reaching Earth. He does in his Supernova attack, but that is purely because it is an animation, and I do not believe that the FFVII world is Earth. If it is then it is an Earth in an alternate dimension where its face is very different, and people have materia. In this sense then Great Gospel could be treated in the same way, as an animation; something happening in battle but not in the game’s reality. That said, if it is to be taken as actually happening then I would still say that angels were chosen as they are instantly recognisable.

I do think that something was meant by all of the religious references, and there is a lot to FFVII (and most FF games) when you really look into them. They’re just not all that obvious. When writing fiction people do often reference our own planet indirectly as people want to express their opinions about what is going on here, or what would be right or desirable here. I still don’t believe that the religious symbolism used can be taken as a confirmation that these religions existed on the FFVII planet. To me I only see it as an attempt to mirror our world, to make us think about ourselves and what we’ve been through. It’s a way to engage the player. I still view Aerith as the culmination of all religions and energies, and all of the earth’s forces piling into her, but that she returns to the Ancients before she dies to show how the heart of all religion (and what we all want from religion) is never changing.




If anyone worships the Teal Deer, then I’m sorry, but I can’t be bothered to summarise all of that so I guess you’d be doomed to never read this post.

 

[The Witch]

Whoo, long post.

Okay, can anyone explain the cross on Vincent's coffin?

You can't have a cross without Christianity.

 

[Dionysos]

Whoo, long post.

Sorry.

Okay, can anyone explain the cross on Vincent's coffin?

You can't have a cross without Christianity.

The coffin, and the room it is found in, was designed to be gothic looking and eerie. Vincent wasn't a vampire, but he was designed to look like one in his base form, and to look like other monsters (Frankenstein, Jason, giant man-bat / gargoyle creature etc) in his Limit Break forms. Vincent is the embodiment of all horror fictional monsters thrown into one man, so it was very fitting to have him in a coffin rather than a scientific container as you'd expect from Hojo.

They were merely using the coffin to paint the scene of the freaky guy trapped in the basement. A plain room with a metallic container wouldn't have had as much of an impact.

In horror fiction religious icons and symbols (predominantly Christian) can be used as a means of fighting back unholy beasts, so perhaps the cross on the coffin from Crisis Core (the cross wasn't there in the original game as far as I can tell) was merely used to let us know that what was contained underneath was a monster which should not be unleashed just now. Alternatively, it could just be that they were using religious symbols such as the cross with Vincent merely because of their connections with gothic horror, and the player by association would notice that Vincent was laid out like a vampire in that room.

So I'd say that you can have a cross which has no connection to Christianity when there are no followers of Christ in the world of FFVII, and when the only reason for it being there is to cue the player into thinking "ah, monsters and horror fiction… Vincent is a badass!"

 

[The Witch]

So I'd say that you can have a cross which has no connection to Christianity when there are no followers of Christ in the world of FFVII, and when the only reason for it being there is to cue the player into thinking "ah, monsters and horror movies… Vincent is a badass!"

But... the thing is, you can't have that kind of cross without Christianity. If there was a guy nailed on a cross you guys would still probably say it wasn't Jesus.

That's the whole reason why the cross is proof, if there's a cross that means there has to be a Jesus. You can't have one and not the other. That's not how it goes.

I don't care WHY the cross was added on there, but the fact that it was proves Christianity exists in the game. That's all I'm saying.

So now, there's churches, gospel, prayers, angels, and crosses. Really now? How can it not exist??

 

[Dionysos]

So now, there's churches, gospel, prayers, angels, and crosses. Really now? How can it not exist??

It can't exist because nobody worships it within the FFVII universe. It's a part of the game's iconography, but not a part of its mythology (so far as we can tell).

Any culture could bang two planks of wood together, like the shape, and then decide to use it as a motif. In the FFVII world the cross (as far as can be known to us) has no connection to Christ.

As for the prayers, we have no idea what words were uttered, or who they were uttered to. If we heard Aerith speaking through prayer to God, Jesus or Mary etc then we'd have some evidence, I think. The angels arriving in response to the prayer seen in Great Gospel are likely for the sake of battle animation, and to be easily recognised by the player.

 

[Harlequin]

The inclusion of Christian imagery is more of a reflection of our times than a reference to ingame philosophy.

As Argor said the cross is likely used because of the aesthetic of gothic horror in this day and age, which focuses on the paranormal.

Christian influences undoubtedly exist in the game, but the religion itself does and doesn't.

For example, if in 10,000 years a copy of FFVII is discovered and it's contents studied, the persons studying the game would likely observe that whilst the characters make no assertion of whether the religion exists, the influences certainly do. That person would then likely deduce that the game developers themselves were influenced by Christian imagery and symbolism which does indeed make it present in the game.

If I use a certain concept merely for aesthetic value in a painting of mine, I carry over more than just the visuals. It's a good point you're making Cali, albeit a very convoluted one.

If I use the symbolism, the concept exists from that moment on, even if I use it only for it's aesthetic values.

 

[Ilyena]

It's not like Christianity invented the cross. Crosses existed long before Christianity. I mean, the cross was used as a means of torture in Rome which is the entire reason it's a symbol of Christianity to begin with.

Symbolism, to me anyway, does not equal proof. Symbolism of every kind is widely used in works of fiction. I'm not going to bother rehashing what everyone has said about that.

 

[Gaige]

Angels were also used in primal society as messangers of the primal people's pagan deity, who was in fact, a Goddess. Some people actually interpret humans as angels because we all have a little bit of this pagan Goddess in us.

 

[The Witch]

It can't exist because nobody worships it within the FFVII universe. It's a part of the game's iconography, but not a part of its mythology (so far as we can tell).

But, Aerith visits a church and prays, meaning she does worship it. Before this cross picture came up, you all said that since there's no crosses that means she's not praying to a god. But since there are crosses, along with churches, prayers, etc, that means she was praying to a God.

As for the prayers, we have no idea what words were uttered, or who they were uttered to. If we heard Aerith speaking through prayer to God, Jesus or Mary etc then we'd have some evidence, I think. The angels arriving in response to the prayer seen in Great Gospel are likely for the sake of battle animation, and to be easily recognised by the player.

Yes, we have no idea what she said. But can't we make a logical conclusion? We saw a church, a gothic Catholic church no less. We hear about a "Gospel". We see a woman who loves to visit said church pray on her knees. Then angels that look just like Roman Catholic angels come to her aide. And now, we have a cross.

What is the conclusion to all of that evidence? That it's all just coincidence? No. The logical conclusion is that all of those "clues" lead to a religion.





EDIT: didn't see those other posts.

Christian influences undoubtedly exist in the game, but the religion itself does and doesn't.

Yeah, I get that. But does everyone understand that the developers did it for a reason? Even if it's never stated to actually exist, they wanted it to.

And yes, I know what the crosses were used for before Christ. But are you all saying the Roman empire existed now? Again, can't have one without the other.

 

[Gaige]

The imagery of Roman Catholic Gods were originally taken from Judaism. They received them from paganism.

Kneeling was to connect your body with the ground, aka Mother Earth.

The cross was a symbol of torture. Symbolising the torture Vincent endured.

 

[The Witch]

Ugh, I don't care what it's symbolizing now. As long as people can at least admit it is symbolizing one or the other in the the FFVII world.

And again, if you all are saying that it can mean Judaism, etc, fine, whatever do that. But if you all believe those exist that means Christianity can, too. There's nothing saying that it doesn't exist, and there is nothing saying that it for sure exists. However, we've been given plenty of clues. Clues that were put in the game for a reason.

 

[Gaige]

No no no. I'm saying that the Christian interpretations of things were merely ADAPTED from paganism. They're third hand symbols, changed to fit the Christian way and to represent the teachings. They're nice, and they're comforting, but they're third hand. Aerith never mentioned a God. She was praying to the Lifestream, an entity remarkably similar to Mother Earth. She kneeled on the ground to communicate with this life, just like pagans did. Angels descended in pagan times. Crosses represented suffering in Rome, a polytheistic society. Aerith's religion cannot be identified as one religion. It is a combination of many pre Christian polytheistic beliefs.

 

[The Witch]

No no no. I'm saying that the Christian interpretation of things were merely ADAPTED from paganism. They're third hand symbols, changed to fit the Christian way and to represent the teachings. They're nice, and they're comforting, but they're third hand. Aerith never mentioned a God. She was praying to the Lifestream, an entity remarkably similar to Mother Earth. She kneeled on the ground to communicate with this life, just like pagans did. Angels descended in pagan times. Crosses represented suffering in Rome, a polytheistic society. Aerith's religion cannot be identified as one religion. It is a combination of many pre Christian polytheistic beliefs.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll agree with that, whatever. But if paganism can exist so can Christianity.

 

[Gaige]

But when did Aerith communicate with a monotheistic God? When was anyone crucified? Were the angels given the names of Christian Angels? Did she say Christian prayers? No. She solely practised pagan rituals and the symbols were solely pagan. There was not one Christian interpretation of any of the symbols in that game.

 

[Harlequin]

Has anyone read Death of the Author by Roland Barthes?

The book comments on the readers' tendency to base their own understanding of a work of art (in this case a book) on what the author has decided to imbue it with.

Explained simply: If I include a wheelbarrow in a shot whilst making a film, the reader has to get past what that wheelbarrow meant to me and begin to think about what that wheelbarrow means to them. That wheelbarrow could trigger deep sentiment in some and complete ignorance in others.

The point is, Aeris' 'Church' was called just that because of Christian influence. Whether or not you wish to downplay it's significance is another story entirely, but Christian influence does now exist in that work of art which means by extention Christianity exists in FFVII.

Nice one Cali

 

[Eight]

I'm sorry, you're the one that keeps going on like Christianity is definitely in there, just because iconography and symbols based from it is put in the game doesn't say that Christianity is definitely in the game, it's like saying Norse is definitely in the game because Odin is in it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, believe what you wanna believe, but don't go acting all "It's in there because I say so" and putting our opinions down.

Ugh, I don't care what it's symbolizing now. As long as people can at least admit it is symbolizing one or the other in the the FFVII world.

Contradiction.

 

[Dionysos]

I don't think that anybody is really arguing that Romans or Jews appear in FFVII either. Their mentioning has only been to try and show how ambiguous some of the symbols are, and that ultimately it is irrelevant to the game as these things cannot exist on a planet which is alien to ours. That is unless the Jewish exodus took them into outer space, and that Romans also eventually conquered the stars.

All things earthly in the FFVII world are likely used to allow the player to recognise or identify with them, and sometimes there are hidden meanings which can be found in them, and sometimes the creators are trying to get a point across about our own planet using these indirect but detectable comparisons and motifs.

 

[The Witch]

Has anyone read Death of the Author by Roland Bathes?

The book comments on the readers' tendency to base their own understanding of a work of art (in this case a book) on what the author has decided to imbue it with.

Explained simply: If I include a wheelbarrow in a shot whilst making a film, the reader has to get past what that wheelbarrow meant to me and begin to think about what that wheelbarrow means to them. That wheelbarrow could trigger deep sentiment in some and complete ignorance in others.

The point is, Aeris' 'Church' was called just that because of Christian influence. Whether or not you wish to downplay it's significance is another story entirely, but Christian influence does now exist in that work of art which means by extention Christianity exists in FFVII.

Nice one Cali

Thank you.

All things earthly in the FFVII world are likely used to allow the player to recognise or identify with them, and sometimes there are hidden meanings which can be found in them, and sometimes the creators are trying to get a point across about our own planet using these indirect but detectable comparisons and motifs.

Again, the fact that they symbolized it means a lot to me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, believe what you wanna believe, but don't go acting all "It's in there because I say so" and putting our opinions down.

I-I'm not trying to put anyone's opinions down. I'm trying to discuss something.

 

[Harlequin]

I'm sorry, you're the one that keeps going on like Christianity is definitely in there, just because iconography and symbols based from it is put in the game doesn't say that Christianity is definitely in the game, it's like saying Norse is definitely in the game because Odin is in it.

I think you're missing the point.

If I write a book in English, the English language exists in the very fabric of that book.

Now if we take the analogy of a language and apply it to FFVII in this case, the game uses the conceptual language of Christianity when referring to Aeris' Church, meaning Christianity exists in the very fabric of the game's universe, albeit unmentioned entirely by the game's characters.

EDIT-

That doesn't mean anyone in the game is a Christian, I still feel it was an oversight from the game developers rather than an assertion of religion.

 

[The Witch]

I think you're missing the point.

If I write a book in English, the English language exists in the very fabric of that book.

Now if we take the analogy of a language and apply it to FFVII in this case, the game uses the conceptual language of Christianity when referring to Aeris' Church, meaning Christianity exists in the very fabric of the game's universe, albeit unmentioned entirely by the game's characters.

EDIT-

That doesn't mean anyone in the game is a Christian, I still feel it was an oversight from the game developers rather than an assertion of religion.

Yeah, I can agree to that. It might not be mentioned but it's the structure of it being there that means something.