tell that to the moron preacher
Honestly this clown simply shows how intolerant mainstream right wing Christianity has become. I don't see American Muslims burning Bibles, do you?
We will burn hundreds of copies of the Koran...
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tell that to the moron preacher
Honestly this clown simply shows how intolerant mainstream right wing Christianity has become. I don't see American Muslims burning Bibles, do you?
Rydrum2112
Methodologist
Sum1
Who wouldn't? That's easy anyone who is rational and respects other people. Why would you advocate violence for burning pieces of paper??????
Who wouldn't? That's easy anyone who is rational and respects other people. Why would you advocate violence for burning pieces of paper??????
Say that to the rest of the world, and they'd agree. Until it happens. It's more than just burning paper, it's starting a holy war. It stirs discrimination and hatred.
Best believe if Bibles were burnt, there'd be hell to pay for the person who did it. This is exactly what I'm saying, people are playing with fire. China made Bibles illegal to own, and Christians are bootlegging them anyway. People die on account of that.
Don't talk to me about rationality. That's bullshit_
The Quran is a way of life for muslims...........it's almost like their 2nd mother/father!!!...........it might be paper but Muslims already handle the quran with a sense of respect(they must be clean,cannot toss or throw the book etc)
Even though it is finally cancelled,Pastor Terry Jones would worsen things if he had gone on ahead............Muslim extremists simply are against the west for a simple reason they kill muslims and are not muslim (of course more reasons)............but burning a bible would cause incredible anger among the extremists...........anger will lead to hate.........which will evetually lead to a bomb or a another attack..............
Anyway I don't understand why someone would wanna burn a quran when there are so many Twilight and Harry Potter books?
Rydrum2112
Methodologist
Sum1: Your point makes no sense. If people act rationally then there wouldn't be a problem. If you get offended because I don't respect your religion get over it, don't attack me. Just because someone else does something stupid that doesn't give you the right to react with more stupidity. What is bullshit is you getting all worked up because I don't think a book has some sacred value (or because I don't care about your religion), and it is also bullshit that you think violence is an appropriate response.
Darkshadow: A copy of the koran is just paper and ink. If you want to attribute more to some pages you are free to do so but I don't have to hold it as sacred just because you do- to me it is just another book. What you are saying, is that if someone else holds something "sacred" others have to also. It is complete BS and against free speech.
Why does religion get so much respect that it can't be insulted? If someone believed the earth was 5000yrs old, or if it was flat- I don't think you two (dark & sim1) would be upset that people were laughing at that belief.
What is so special about religion?
Darkshadow: A copy of the koran is just paper and ink. If you want to attribute more to some pages you are free to do so but I don't have to hold it as sacred just because you do- to me it is just another book. What you are saying, is that if someone else holds something "sacred" others have to also. It is complete BS and against free speech.
Why does religion get so much respect that it can't be insulted? If someone believed the earth was 5000yrs old, or if it was flat- I don't think you two (dark & sim1) would be upset that people were laughing at that belief.
What is so special about religion?
My point makes perfect sense. It is the world as you see it. The truth is everywhere. One man can make a change, but only for a while. Soon it becomes overturned. Take America for example. Many people who came here wanted to be free from England's religous by-laws and persecution. And now, what is America doing? Repeating the very thing they ran away from in the first place.
There is no rationality, so how the hell can you proclaim that people who are tormented be rational?
A book can have just as much value as anything. It's all perspective. Just because you think it's idiotic does not mean that a war won't start_
Muslims are being put in the hot-seat for something they can't control, and people simmer in lies and try to muster a truth from them.
And besides, if you knew the concept of Islam, you would see exactly what I'm saying.
As it stands, I refuse to debate with anyone who has no intention of being realistic and teaching themselves upon the subject_
And just to let you know, I didn't say I supported violence. But as human nature goes, it's inevitable. As close to God anyone can be, they are only human_
There is no rationality, so how the hell can you proclaim that people who are tormented be rational?
A book can have just as much value as anything. It's all perspective. Just because you think it's idiotic does not mean that a war won't start_
Muslims are being put in the hot-seat for something they can't control, and people simmer in lies and try to muster a truth from them.
And besides, if you knew the concept of Islam, you would see exactly what I'm saying.
As it stands, I refuse to debate with anyone who has no intention of being realistic and teaching themselves upon the subject_
And just to let you know, I didn't say I supported violence. But as human nature goes, it's inevitable. As close to God anyone can be, they are only human_
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Rydrum2112
Methodologist
First of all half of what you said makes no sense.
Secondly, your history reference is backwards. What america is doing is allowing free speech, and that includes burning books. It is more of a persecution to not be allowed the freedom of expression (burning of books) because something is religious- that is along the lines of what old england was doing: not allowing other view points to be expressed.
Thirdly, What do you mean there is no rationality? I am rational, why can't others be- is it really to much to ask for that you think before you act or that you act in a respectful manner?
People can control how they react, if islam was such a peaceful religion then a bit of book burning wouldn't start a war- they wouldn't have wars.
How does someone burning a book, "torment" (this word doesn't mean what you used it as, do you mean oppressed or something) someone else? Just ignore it be the bigger person.
Also why is unrealistic to ask people not be violent? I am not violent so why can't other people do it?
If you refuse to debate then you are just as closed minded as the extremists (and again "teaching themselves UPON a subject" is meaningless- did you mean you wont debate someone who isn't an expert in islam? who decides who is an expert?).
You don't have to be an expert in Islam to expect people (muslims) to be rational. Unless you are saying that you can't be rational when you are a muslim which is just bullshit.
What on earth is this talking about?
Secondly, your history reference is backwards. What america is doing is allowing free speech, and that includes burning books. It is more of a persecution to not be allowed the freedom of expression (burning of books) because something is religious- that is along the lines of what old england was doing: not allowing other view points to be expressed.
Thirdly, What do you mean there is no rationality? I am rational, why can't others be- is it really to much to ask for that you think before you act or that you act in a respectful manner?
People can control how they react, if islam was such a peaceful religion then a bit of book burning wouldn't start a war- they wouldn't have wars.
How does someone burning a book, "torment" (this word doesn't mean what you used it as, do you mean oppressed or something) someone else? Just ignore it be the bigger person.
Also why is unrealistic to ask people not be violent? I am not violent so why can't other people do it?
If you refuse to debate then you are just as closed minded as the extremists (and again "teaching themselves UPON a subject" is meaningless- did you mean you wont debate someone who isn't an expert in islam? who decides who is an expert?).
You don't have to be an expert in Islam to expect people (muslims) to be rational. Unless you are saying that you can't be rational when you are a muslim which is just bullshit.
In a perfect world that would make sense to everyone. But it doesn't in our world. It's not like the Muslims are the only ones who get upset. When they're protests that have the American flag burning lot's of people get violent and it's just a piece of cloth.
The difference is that these things stand for far greater things than they are.
For Rydrum2112:
Alright, I will humble myself and continue this debate_ Usually I'm done after saying so but I'll make an exception.
For one, freedom of speech has nothing to do with this. Yes, it is legal to burn any kind of book. Burn the nation's flag if you got to. But your logic speaks in circles and I'll tell you why-
Burning holy books may not be a legal crime, but it is an act of dismissing millions of people and trying to make them less than others. That is a crime in itself, because you are keeping chaos running. You are attempting to reduce a man's frugality in life.
For example, if a man is accused of molesting a child, even if he is found innocent, his life will not be as it was before.
That man has no intention of respecting anyone who does not respect them simply because of that accusation, nor should he.
That is an indisputable truth, yet people simmer in their own lies, trying to muster a truth from them.
And for everything else stated in my last post:
Rationality is just a word when you're dealing with millions. As a whole, we are chaotic. As individuals,, it doesn't matter unless you actually do something about it. Being born didn't guarantee absolute freedom. If the world shatters in your life-time, ask yourself: how 'respectful' will you b?
Alright, I will humble myself and continue this debate_ Usually I'm done after saying so but I'll make an exception.
For one, freedom of speech has nothing to do with this. Yes, it is legal to burn any kind of book. Burn the nation's flag if you got to. But your logic speaks in circles and I'll tell you why-
Burning holy books may not be a legal crime, but it is an act of dismissing millions of people and trying to make them less than others. That is a crime in itself, because you are keeping chaos running. You are attempting to reduce a man's frugality in life.
For example, if a man is accused of molesting a child, even if he is found innocent, his life will not be as it was before.
That man has no intention of respecting anyone who does not respect them simply because of that accusation, nor should he.
That is an indisputable truth, yet people simmer in their own lies, trying to muster a truth from them.
And for everything else stated in my last post:
Rationality is just a word when you're dealing with millions. As a whole, we are chaotic. As individuals,, it doesn't matter unless you actually do something about it. Being born didn't guarantee absolute freedom. If the world shatters in your life-time, ask yourself: how 'respectful' will you b?
bearsfwd
Delusory Dragoon
Just because you can do or are something, doesn't mean every single person in the world is the same. Sure, they can be rational, but it's not a matter of can they or can't they, it's a matter of WILL they. You are a completely different person from me, or anyone else for that matter. Just because you may be able to be rational and control how you act, doesn't mean some Islamic extremist group won't decide to come to the US and start attacking random things all because a Quran was burned...
The world is not a perfect place. This world is full of people who kill other people for the strangest reasons. People have found where people live and killed them simply for killing them in a game. It wouldn't surprise me if an Islamic group would retaliate in some form if this had actually happened. Just like it really wouldn't surprise me if Christian extremists went on a rampage for a Bible being burned.
Like I said before, I don't give a rat's ass what these schmoes do. But, if it would end up threatening the safety of me or the people around me (which, it more than likely would), I'd be pissed. When it comes to religion, people don't think. Their way is the ONLY way, and you don't agree, then you can just burn. Religion tends to bring the irrationality out of people (not everybody that practices...only the ones you hear about in the news, for example), whether you want to believe it or not. And apparently, any publicity is good publicity.
Rydrum2112
Methodologist
Sum1: I think you are right, its time to stop because you continue to make no sense nor do you address any points made, and you are using meaningless phrasing.
For example-
How does burning books dismiss people and make them less than others and keep chaos running?
Wouldn't not allowing the burning do the same thing to the people who want to burn them?
What does it mean to "keep chaos running?" and how does that pertain to me saying that people shouldn't be violent?
"reducing a man's frugality in life." Is that seriously what you mean? You are saying that burning books lowers a man's ability to be thrifty/careful with his money in life... what on earth are you talking about?
"For example, if a man is accused of molesting a child, even if he is found innocent, his life will not be as it was before. That man has no intention of respecting anyone who does not respect them simply because of that accusation, nor should he."
What is that an example of, what is it relevant for, and that statement itself makes no sense how can you presume to speak for everyone? And just because someone doesn't respect you does not mean you shouldn't respect them.
What is an indisputable proof?
"Rationality is just a word when you're dealing with millions." Not at all, billions of people act rationally every day- for example monetary units, or traffic laws.
"As a whole, we are chaotic." First of all prove that to be true, second how is that relevant?
"Being born didn't guarantee absolute freedom." Why not?
"If the world shatters in your life-time, ask yourself: how 'respectful' will you b?" WHAT???, how is the world going to shatter- and why wouldn't I continue to be respectful?
And after all that you have not once actually discussed the main thrust of the debate- why would someone burning books allow someone else to be act violently toward them??
bearsfwd- I think we agree on everything. I understand the world isn't perfect, and that some people will be violent and do irrational things. But shouldn't we try to strive towards that?
In fact I am not sure I disagree with anything you said. I don't think them burning the books is a good idea-to be honest I think it is a stupid idea. I am just saying that we should strive to be better and that I am pretty sure most religions teach that too.
All I am asking is why is it ok for someone to be violent because a book was burnt?
Read this.
For example-
How does burning books dismiss people and make them less than others and keep chaos running?
Wouldn't not allowing the burning do the same thing to the people who want to burn them?
What does it mean to "keep chaos running?" and how does that pertain to me saying that people shouldn't be violent?
"reducing a man's frugality in life." Is that seriously what you mean? You are saying that burning books lowers a man's ability to be thrifty/careful with his money in life... what on earth are you talking about?
"For example, if a man is accused of molesting a child, even if he is found innocent, his life will not be as it was before. That man has no intention of respecting anyone who does not respect them simply because of that accusation, nor should he."
What is that an example of, what is it relevant for, and that statement itself makes no sense how can you presume to speak for everyone? And just because someone doesn't respect you does not mean you shouldn't respect them.
What is an indisputable proof?
"Rationality is just a word when you're dealing with millions." Not at all, billions of people act rationally every day- for example monetary units, or traffic laws.
"As a whole, we are chaotic." First of all prove that to be true, second how is that relevant?
"Being born didn't guarantee absolute freedom." Why not?
"If the world shatters in your life-time, ask yourself: how 'respectful' will you b?" WHAT???, how is the world going to shatter- and why wouldn't I continue to be respectful?
And after all that you have not once actually discussed the main thrust of the debate- why would someone burning books allow someone else to be act violently toward them??
bearsfwd- I think we agree on everything. I understand the world isn't perfect, and that some people will be violent and do irrational things. But shouldn't we try to strive towards that?
In fact I am not sure I disagree with anything you said. I don't think them burning the books is a good idea-to be honest I think it is a stupid idea. I am just saying that we should strive to be better and that I am pretty sure most religions teach that too.
All I am asking is why is it ok for someone to be violent because a book was burnt?
Read this.
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bearsfwd
Delusory Dragoon
That's the problem though. I think you are misunderstanding something. Unless I misread something, I didn't see where anyone said it was okay for someone to be violent because a book was burnt. However, it's not that it's okay for them to be violent, it's that it's bound to happen. When you do something bad to something very close to someone, they will more than likely retaliate. It's not a matter of if it's ok or not. It's just human nature.
Look at the US in World War II. Japan attacked us, and I'm pretty sure we didn't do anything to provoke them. But after they attacked us, we could have done one or two things. We could have said, "Whatever, life sucks, let's move on", or we could have done what we did, and dropped two bombs on them in retaliation.
Now, replace the Pearl Harbor example with this guy that wanted to burn Qurans. He would be Japan, Muslims would be the US, and the Quran would be Pearl Harbor. He burns a Quran, Muslims (the extremist ones) will retaliate any way they can. They wouldn't care about anything else other than getting their retaliation. If they die trying, then to them, they'll get their 72 virgins.
That book, that to any non-Muslim is simply that...to a Muslim, that book is practically their life. People will do their own things, no matter how right or wrong they may be. And you know what, that's fine. But I'm not going to condone something that could lead to more attacks on the US. If they wanted to get their revenge, I would understand why though.
9/11 was a little to close for comfort to me (and you too, assuming the PA in your info is Pennsylvania). We had New York get attacked to the north, we had a plane go down in western PA, and the Pentagon to the south. We are literally in the middle of EVERYTHING. Hell...I live really friggen close to a nuclear power plant. I would really like for us to not get attacked again. So I really hope these numbskulls get their Bibles out of their asses and start thinking about the safety of the country they live in instead of getting into a pissing match with a group of people that take their religion VERY seriously.
Apparently trying to prove your religions superiority to all the others is the cool thing to do now!
Like I said, it's not a matter of it being ok or not to get revenge on the burning of a "book", it's a matter of that being the most likely outcome. Could they learn to be rational? Sure. Do they want to be rational? Maybe. Would you want to take that chance to find out if they are going to be rational? Hell no!
Rydrum2112
Methodologist
Bears- I think you missed what started the only thing i was debating.
Sum1 stated this:
And I took exception with the fact that he thought it was ok to be violent.
I don't think the threat of violence should stifle free speech- that is how we had the dark ages (religious oppression).
Sum1 stated this:
And I took exception with the fact that he thought it was ok to be violent.
I don't think the threat of violence should stifle free speech- that is how we had the dark ages (religious oppression).
Because it's more than a book to that person. I've said it dozen of times and you won't listen. If I burned a Bible, I know people who would hit me in the face for it. And you know what? I would deserve it. I shouldn't burn something that they hold precious when they as a group have done nothing wrong.
Let me say it this way in terms of why it's wrong that he's doing this, let's say a black person robs me one night. The next night I go out and burn a cross in my black neighbor's front yard. Is it okay to do that just because I was robbed by one member of a race? No, it's not.
Religion should be no different.
And it's important to remember that in the world, not everything is going to have great meaning to you, but it may to others. Freedom of Speech is not the freedom to harm others.
Just because that object has no meaning to you or anyone else, doesn't make it okay for someone to burn it. It doesn't make it okay for someone to use it as a tool to hurt the innocent people who nothing to do with September 11.
Because, as I read on another forum discussing this, it's important to remember that religion did not attack the United States, terrorist did, and terrorist will use any excuse to justify their ends.
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Rydrum2112
Methodologist
Ayum- I saw what you said, and I responded. Just because it means more to someone doesn't mean I have to treat it the way they do. How is burning a book harming others there is no physical harm in that at all.
Your little scenario is so off-topic that I don't even want to spend a lot of time on it. I will say that doesn't make sense and it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. How is getting robbed like burning a book (one is the receiver of a violent action, the other is the doer in a non-harmful act to a material object)? And I am the one saying that there shouldn't be an irrational response to an act, which is I think what you are saying in the cross burning part.
Why is religion in your eyes so special? It is like any other belief, why should it be free from being criticized?
Do you really think that you deserve to be the victim of violence (being slapped) because you expressed a dissenting opinion on something (burnt a book)?
Your little scenario is so off-topic that I don't even want to spend a lot of time on it. I will say that doesn't make sense and it has nothing to do with what we are talking about. How is getting robbed like burning a book (one is the receiver of a violent action, the other is the doer in a non-harmful act to a material object)? And I am the one saying that there shouldn't be an irrational response to an act, which is I think what you are saying in the cross burning part.
Why is religion in your eyes so special? It is like any other belief, why should it be free from being criticized?
Do you really think that you deserve to be the victim of violence (being slapped) because you expressed a dissenting opinion on something (burnt a book)?
bearsfwd
Delusory Dragoon
Exactly. If 9/11 never happened, I don't think we'd be talking about this right now. Burning the Quran because of something a group of people within a particular religion did, is just not right. You want to burn something relating to Al Qaeda (spelling?), then fine. But don't attack an entire religion because of something an extremist faction did. It's not like the whole of Islam woke up one day and said "hey, let's attack America!". No, some goof-ball hiding in the mountains said that, and he had enough wing-nut followers to actually get it done.
Regardless, this isn't a matter of condoning violence or not. This is not a matter of free speech being stifled by threats. It is a matter of free speech being taken too far to potentially affect the safety and security of an entire country.
Free speech should not be stifled by threats. But when your free speech involves the potential of pissing off someone who is crazy enough to retaliate, I think you should consider thinking twice before you say or do what you intended. Common sense people, common sense. People will react how they are going to react, and no one can stop them. So, the best way to prevent someone from reacting in a way you don't want them to react is to not do something to cause them to react that way.
You know what, maybe burning the Qurans wouldn't cause Muslims to become outraged and retaliate against us in any way they can. Maybe this was all just blown out of proportion. But how do we know for sure? For all we know, there was a group of terrorists here within the borders of the US just waiting for them to burn the Qurans, and then once they started to burn, they would start doing whatever damage they could in retaliation. We just don't know. And I don't think that we should do anything that could potentially provoke that kind of response, no matter how credible the threat is.
You know what, the only Muslims I blame for attacking the US, is the terrorist groups. Not the friendly Muslim family down the street, or the sweet, elderly Muslim lady you may see at the grocery store every week. They didn't hijack any planes and they didn't plant any bombs. So why should they get lumped in with the people who dish out the violence, just because they are of the same religion?
Have you missed the entire context of this debate? It all started because a preacher was going to burn 200 Qurans on September 11. My little hypothetical is completely in context with that. We were attack by extremist, that doesn't make it okay to hold it against an ENTIRE religion. If I was attacked by one member of a race, I shouldn't hold it against the ENTIRE race. Maybe you should read the entire thread before you just jump in shouting?
Religion is not special to me. Religion is important to some people. I have no right to tell them that it shouldn't be. Freedom of Speech is a great thing but it does not give me the right to be harmful to others for something they didn't even do.
You should respect others like you want to be respected, is what comes down to. I wouldn't want someone burning something that I held dear for a reason that made no sense, and was frankly, offensive. I suppose I was raised to respect what other people thought and to understand that my opinion is not the only one that matters.
The world does not revolve around one person.
ShinkuHiro
（　・∀・）[&#
The scenario itself may not seem like it is tied to the burning of the Qur'an, but I believe it is. Why? Because an innocent person was targeted just because they belonged to the same group that the person who actually committed the act did, not because they were involved. The burning of the Qur'an affects every believer of the Muslim religion, regardless of how they feel about it because that is a book they read and treasure. Those who had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks are targeted simply because they are in the same group as those who actually did the act are in. If that does not make sense to you, then I don't know what will. To make a long story short, I think it's stupid and pointless to offend people that had nothing to do with the event instead of the ones who did.
Rydrum2112
Methodologist
I wasn't talking about the entire debate, in-fact I don't have any interest in entering that debate- I was solely debating sum1 and his saying that it was ok to react with violence.
Again i ask how is burning a book harmful to others? and respecting someone as an individual is not the same as respecting all their beliefs. I respect people and that is why I am against violence. But I don't have any respect for the belief that the earth is flat, and if you go on saying its true I am not going to respect that belief of yours
What are you talking about the earth revolving around 1 person? And your example still makes no sense in what I was talking about. How is you getting robbed = to you burning a book???? and how is someone else reacting violently to you burning a book = to you burning a cross because someone is black???
Not to mention race & belief systems are entirely different, one is a choice a belief and can be right or wrong (religion) the other is not (race).
Again i ask how is burning a book harmful to others? and respecting someone as an individual is not the same as respecting all their beliefs. I respect people and that is why I am against violence. But I don't have any respect for the belief that the earth is flat, and if you go on saying its true I am not going to respect that belief of yours
What are you talking about the earth revolving around 1 person? And your example still makes no sense in what I was talking about. How is you getting robbed = to you burning a book???? and how is someone else reacting violently to you burning a book = to you burning a cross because someone is black???
Not to mention race & belief systems are entirely different, one is a choice a belief and can be right or wrong (religion) the other is not (race).
Rydia2112
Oh it's on topic, and it's everything like burning holy books. Just because you don't physically hurt somebody doesn't mean the impact is any less. A metaphorical slap in the face is just as much as a literal one.
And if you can't even understand that, then you'll never be able to make 'sense' of anything else I say. I look at the big picture, and your looking from you're linear perspective. And you accuse me of being close-minded? I know all these things strictly because I am am not. In fact, I'm open-minded to the point where even some things I learn are hard to swallow.
What you need to do, instead of debating this, is go and read. study. open your eyes. then compare and contrast. It's all there you know_
Oh it's on topic, and it's everything like burning holy books. Just because you don't physically hurt somebody doesn't mean the impact is any less. A metaphorical slap in the face is just as much as a literal one.
And if you can't even understand that, then you'll never be able to make 'sense' of anything else I say. I look at the big picture, and your looking from you're linear perspective. And you accuse me of being close-minded? I know all these things strictly because I am am not. In fact, I'm open-minded to the point where even some things I learn are hard to swallow.
What you need to do, instead of debating this, is go and read. study. open your eyes. then compare and contrast. It's all there you know_
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