I think Vaan and Penelo were the only ones that had closeness with each other. Balthier and Fran seemed to be kinda close as well. But I can't tell about the rest of the characters. Maybe Larsa had some closeness to the main characters too?
Lack of Closeness
- Thread starter Gaige
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would i be necro-ing for posting almost a month later?
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i'll be another devil's advocate and say they had great chemistry. the way it was presented(!) is what sets them apart from past FF titles. for example in FFVII you spend most of the time walking around a world map, go into an area and a cutscene happens with heaps of dialogue and funky reactions from the SD-style character models (and i love that). in XII, you spend most of the time walking around the world (or continent), go into an area and a cutscene happens with less gratuitous dialogue and more 'human' reactions from the more-realistic character models with facial expressions.
The difference is VII didn't have the technology to show emotion through facial expression so it used dialogue (as do many of the other FF's save for X), whereas XII had the tech and used it, and as an added touch put less emphasis on emotion-through-words and more on the character's faces. Is this a good or a bad thing? Neither. But to me, the party had as much interaction and relationship building as would any other FF party. A combo of changes in presentation (Vaan's POV is the other) made it less obvious.
Another thing, what do you think FF parties do when they're trekking the world? Walk in silence? They're naturally having small convos and whatnot, it's just that, to show you that they are having such interactions would take more effort on the scriptwriters' part, and SE probably doesn't want to spend time and money on 'yo Barret, you gotta say somethin' when you let one off man, my mouth was open and everything' since small talk doesn't add to the story.
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i'll be another devil's advocate and say they had great chemistry. the way it was presented(!) is what sets them apart from past FF titles. for example in FFVII you spend most of the time walking around a world map, go into an area and a cutscene happens with heaps of dialogue and funky reactions from the SD-style character models (and i love that). in XII, you spend most of the time walking around the world (or continent), go into an area and a cutscene happens with less gratuitous dialogue and more 'human' reactions from the more-realistic character models with facial expressions.
The difference is VII didn't have the technology to show emotion through facial expression so it used dialogue (as do many of the other FF's save for X), whereas XII had the tech and used it, and as an added touch put less emphasis on emotion-through-words and more on the character's faces. Is this a good or a bad thing? Neither. But to me, the party had as much interaction and relationship building as would any other FF party. A combo of changes in presentation (Vaan's POV is the other) made it less obvious.
Another thing, what do you think FF parties do when they're trekking the world? Walk in silence? They're naturally having small convos and whatnot, it's just that, to show you that they are having such interactions would take more effort on the scriptwriters' part, and SE probably doesn't want to spend time and money on 'yo Barret, you gotta say somethin' when you let one off man, my mouth was open and everything' since small talk doesn't add to the story.
Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
The Tales of series clearly debunks that last point since the skits in those games are almost entirely devoted to "small talk" and such campfire situations. They may not add to the main thrust of the narrative, but they do bring life and realism to a party of adventurers on a long trek. The characters actually feel far more real because of these skits.
Also, I just have to disagree about a couple of the points on the emotional realism of FFXII's characters. First, they do not react all that realistically to the events surrounding them and certainly not more "human":
- Accepting a man who has been labelled a traitor for years in just a matter of hours on his word alone... questionable with just Balthier and Fran but ludicrous with Vaan and Ashe considering what this accused traitor has supposedly done to them
- There are three familial struggles that are treated than nothing more than common squabbles in this "rebellious" age... at least one of them has the excuse of happening away from the main party, the other two do not have that luxury
- The Occuria... that sort of revelation should have been greeted with more than what seemed to be mere apathy. At least show some incredulity or laugh or something.
- Ghis and his fleet... really, I don't care if they are an enemy fleet, but that level of destruction in such a short span of time is going to shock and disgust at least ONE of the main party.
That last point is where it might be more likely that the game relied on body language and facial expressions, something this game just does not do well enough. I don't understand how anyone can say FFXII does well with facial expression or body language. The characters were stiff and their faces rarely varied from the stoic stare you are first greeted with. This might have worked with one or two characters, but not the whole cast.
Also, I just have to disagree about a couple of the points on the emotional realism of FFXII's characters. First, they do not react all that realistically to the events surrounding them and certainly not more "human":
- Accepting a man who has been labelled a traitor for years in just a matter of hours on his word alone... questionable with just Balthier and Fran but ludicrous with Vaan and Ashe considering what this accused traitor has supposedly done to them
- There are three familial struggles that are treated than nothing more than common squabbles in this "rebellious" age... at least one of them has the excuse of happening away from the main party, the other two do not have that luxury
- The Occuria... that sort of revelation should have been greeted with more than what seemed to be mere apathy. At least show some incredulity or laugh or something.
- Ghis and his fleet... really, I don't care if they are an enemy fleet, but that level of destruction in such a short span of time is going to shock and disgust at least ONE of the main party.
That last point is where it might be more likely that the game relied on body language and facial expressions, something this game just does not do well enough. I don't understand how anyone can say FFXII does well with facial expression or body language. The characters were stiff and their faces rarely varied from the stoic stare you are first greeted with. This might have worked with one or two characters, but not the whole cast.
HighwindPilot
White Mage
As far as the personal connections? I guess I'd say the character chemistry would work:
Vaan and Penelo: Self explanatory
Basch and Ashe: Their backgrounds and history really seemed to connect them. They were the "nobles" of the group, and this really allowed them to connect.
Balthier and Fran: Self explanatory
Vaan with Balthier and Fran (and maybe Penelo): In the sense that Balthier was pretty much who Vaan wanted to be. They butted heads because of this at first, but it caused them to kind of connect more later. I felt that Balthier was kind of like a brother for Vaan in this sense. These two characters, in addition to Fran, had nice connection.
Vaan with Basch: Due to the story revolving around his brother.
The "dirty secrets" particular characters had does not take away from that, it just added to things by throwing in twists or even more development in a character, and character development is arguably lacking in this game.
Vaan and Penelo: Self explanatory
Basch and Ashe: Their backgrounds and history really seemed to connect them. They were the "nobles" of the group, and this really allowed them to connect.
Balthier and Fran: Self explanatory
Vaan with Balthier and Fran (and maybe Penelo): In the sense that Balthier was pretty much who Vaan wanted to be. They butted heads because of this at first, but it caused them to kind of connect more later. I felt that Balthier was kind of like a brother for Vaan in this sense. These two characters, in addition to Fran, had nice connection.
Vaan with Basch: Due to the story revolving around his brother.
How so? Cloud had his fair share of those kind of cliche kind of lines ("My hands are numb, my body is shaking" or whatever), but in no way could that be a summation of his entire character. He had a lot of diversity about him, and we witnessed a kind of maturity as a cold SOB to a passionate guy.
That's not emo. No one is happy every second of their lives. The kind of maturity or change he underwent was a realistic response. And what it basically sounds like you're implying is that a character with complexes is a bad thing. I disagree.
Yeah, but you can also see why this would cause some people to question if they actually tied together in the plot very well. I mean, most other FFs had a cast that banded together for similar causes as well, so it's not like you just described something exclusive to this game. In fact, a lot of the others seemed to fit more than a Vaan or Penello.
The "dirty secrets" particular characters had does not take away from that, it just added to things by throwing in twists or even more development in a character, and character development is arguably lacking in this game.
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How was it debunked? I simply stated that in order to put in such scenes would require more money spent on Squeenix's behalf. SE most likely felt that spending money on scenes that don't add to the plot was a waste, which is their opinion and their decision, not mine.
I feel you missed the point of my post with this. I never gave an opinion on the realism of their behaviors, I stated that FFXII used technology that other FF's besides X didn't have, the use of facial expressions - which by default on the type of character models used is more 'human' than any reactions seen before FFX, simply because it has the tech to pull it off.
And that, is your opinion, not fact.
Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
SE choosing to do that with the "small talk" still makes little sense given the history with prior Final Fantasy games giving glimpses into characters using little asides during the main quest alone. FFXII didn't even offer that with the sidequests, seeing as these quests basically centred on hunts that offered very little (if anything) back on the characters.
Also, I was not arguing that the facial expressions are worse than what is in previous installments, seeing as that faces weren't really well rendered in the enitirety of a FF game until FFX. Before that, the only time you see realistic faces by any stretch is in the cutscenes.
I was simply arguing that the body language and facial expressions are nowhere near as realistic as you portray them to be. The facial expression issue is not really a knock against FFXII, since there are really no games that have mapped the human face well enough to portray such emotions just using normal facial expressions. Why do you think so many people are hyped about Heavy Rain... some of the shots seem to show a leap in facial rendering that will address this very issue.
The other FF games realised this limitation and offered other non-verbal cues to a character's emotional state from severely exaggerated movements (pre 3D era), to slight over exagerrated gestures with less subtle verbal cues (pre-voice acting), and finally to what was achieved in FFX with almost no exaggeration on the gestures with the introduction of voice acting (yes, Rikku's hand gestues are quite realistic... I should know since I do talk with my hands just as much as she does).
It also didn't help that the time spent on any emotional scene in FFXII was severely limited by the design choices and the insistent nature of this game to go dungeon crawling. The game seriously needed to slow down and show the reactions to these events. But this was probably intended since the game seems to shout "events over the characters".
Also, I was not arguing that the facial expressions are worse than what is in previous installments, seeing as that faces weren't really well rendered in the enitirety of a FF game until FFX. Before that, the only time you see realistic faces by any stretch is in the cutscenes.
I was simply arguing that the body language and facial expressions are nowhere near as realistic as you portray them to be. The facial expression issue is not really a knock against FFXII, since there are really no games that have mapped the human face well enough to portray such emotions just using normal facial expressions. Why do you think so many people are hyped about Heavy Rain... some of the shots seem to show a leap in facial rendering that will address this very issue.
The other FF games realised this limitation and offered other non-verbal cues to a character's emotional state from severely exaggerated movements (pre 3D era), to slight over exagerrated gestures with less subtle verbal cues (pre-voice acting), and finally to what was achieved in FFX with almost no exaggeration on the gestures with the introduction of voice acting (yes, Rikku's hand gestues are quite realistic... I should know since I do talk with my hands just as much as she does).
It also didn't help that the time spent on any emotional scene in FFXII was severely limited by the design choices and the insistent nature of this game to go dungeon crawling. The game seriously needed to slow down and show the reactions to these events. But this was probably intended since the game seems to shout "events over the characters".
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Ready to hate me? I will compare this to FFVII. No flat out answer. I don't even remember characters anymore besides their name and slightly their attitudes, other than that they were very forgettable. I mean just remember FFX as well, with the campfire scene, you could tell how close these people were.
As far as having a bond, yes they had one. Would you call it significant? No. the story was everywhere. If it was a book, like I've said before.. it would make for a terrible read. The game play and graphics made this game enjoyable though. So it made up a lot of the downsides to this game in general.
As far as having a bond, yes they had one. Would you call it significant? No. the story was everywhere. If it was a book, like I've said before.. it would make for a terrible read. The game play and graphics made this game enjoyable though. So it made up a lot of the downsides to this game in general.
WanderingAesthetic
Blue Mage
Really, they're interactions can't be realistic, because they're not given enough individual characterization to have good group interaction. Most of the party isn't given much, and Penelo isn't given any at all. The really unfortunate thing is, I've seen some really good fanfiction of XII that expands on the little info that we're given on each character. The roots for really great character-driven story were there, but never used, and that's what is terribly frustrating to me.
I understand that XII is mostly about the world and countries and politics, but you're not playing as countries, you're playing as some guys, so it would have been nice to know something about them.
A fairly small thing that could have improved the game twentyfold for me would have been to include scenes on your airship, our just hanging around town, probably optional things that only come up if you talk to the other characters. VII used this a lot, and so did X. The whole deal with Yuffie getting motion sick, and Cloud talking to her about it after he was himself again, Cid's rant about Loveless, Auron telling you the story about Jecht thinking a Shoopuf was a fiend, just little details that make characters feel real and make stories more immersive. You never had to hear any of this dialogue, but it made the game better.
Are you saying you don't remember VII's characters, or XII's characters, or both?
I understand that XII is mostly about the world and countries and politics, but you're not playing as countries, you're playing as some guys, so it would have been nice to know something about them.
A fairly small thing that could have improved the game twentyfold for me would have been to include scenes on your airship, our just hanging around town, probably optional things that only come up if you talk to the other characters. VII used this a lot, and so did X. The whole deal with Yuffie getting motion sick, and Cloud talking to her about it after he was himself again, Cid's rant about Loveless, Auron telling you the story about Jecht thinking a Shoopuf was a fiend, just little details that make characters feel real and make stories more immersive. You never had to hear any of this dialogue, but it made the game better.
Are you saying you don't remember VII's characters, or XII's characters, or both?
HighwindPilot
White Mage
What exactly are you saying here?
EDIT2.5+7-32x4: Let's list the points.
You (Platinum_Lies): Believe XII has terrible chemistry, lacks campfire scenes/has underdeveloped characters, think the character interactions and facial expressions are unrealistic/perpetually stoic.
Me (Y harro thar!): Believe XII has great chemistry but different style of presentation, lacks campfire scenes (would be nice if we had random conversations while they walk around the map, no?). Have also stated that facial expressions are used and hence emphasis on dialogue is decreased. Have not given opinion on character interactions or facial expressions.
This is the sum of the argument. No, wait, there is no argument. <_>
(yes, i edited this post hours later, reading satire does wonders.)
You (Platinum_Lies): Believe XII has terrible chemistry, lacks campfire scenes/has underdeveloped characters, think the character interactions and facial expressions are unrealistic/perpetually stoic.
Me (Y harro thar!): Believe XII has great chemistry but different style of presentation, lacks campfire scenes (would be nice if we had random conversations while they walk around the map, no?). Have also stated that facial expressions are used and hence emphasis on dialogue is decreased. Have not given opinion on character interactions or facial expressions.
This is the sum of the argument. No, wait, there is no argument. <_>
(yes, i edited this post hours later, reading satire does wonders.)
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The game lacked closeness because of the piss poor character development, the closest people got was Penelo/Vaan and Balthier/Fran and even then there was never any major development into past relations with one another. To me, SE were just trying to focus on each characters story individually, then trying to bind them together to make the overall story, which was executed poorly indeed.
Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
You made a comment on FFXII approaching characters and their interactions with more realism ("human reactions" as you put it) and more realistic human models, thus you did give an opinion on both of those. That was what my counter-points were about, the lack of this emotional realism... especially in comparison to older Final Fantasy titles.
I directly countered the realism based on "human reactions" and pointed out that if FFXII relied on their more realistic human models, they didn't do a good enough job with body language or facial expressions.
So there actually was an argument.
Well, honestly, no, i did not. My comment did not concern FFXII's characters or their interactions being realistic, it stated that XII used the technology available to it to use facial expressions in place of exaggerated dialogue/body movements, which inherently is more realistic/human because of the character models used - which is a fact, and is not my opinion. The only opinion I have ever stated in this thread is that I believe the character chemistry was good but presentation was different.
I haven't countered your counter-points, because you never countered my points in the first place ._. and to be honest, I thought the facial expressions could have used more work too (namely the eyes), but again I haven't stated any opinion about that until now. If I did state opinions on the points you mentioned, please quote them in your next post so this can be settled.
Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
That was the point I was contending. There wasn't more human reactions and some of that stems from the failure of FFXII with the use facial expressions. The rest of my post was points to back up both of these claims.
Then it seems you misinterpreted what I was saying there. That quote says XII uses less exaggerated dialogue and uses facial expressions, which in comparison with previous FF titles (bar FFX) is more realistic/human. We don't see Balthier waving his arms in the air when he talks.
Your points argue on the amount of realism present within the reactions and expressions - perfectly reasonable but not what I was stating. The difference is one argument states the expressions are more realistic than previous titles due to tech and character models (again, bar FFX), the other argues that the expressions are not realistic. They are similar but not the same, which is why there isn't a true argument going here; we are not debating the same topic.
EDIT: and that quote should be paired with my first example of FFVII, which is the game I was comparing XII to concerning character models and presentation style.
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Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
I agree with the more realistic body language in comparison to pre-FFX FF games, which I wasn't arguing. In a another post I even conceded that pre-FFX it was necessary to exaggerate the bodily cues for emotion due to the lack of graphical power and/or voice acting.
The way you stated it though seemed to imply (to me), that FFXII was more emotionally realistic due to the body language and lack of gratuitous dialogue. That implication of more emotional realism, even in comparison to pre-FFX games, is the point I was addressing seeing as the emotional realism was tenuous in this game.
The way you stated it though seemed to imply (to me), that FFXII was more emotionally realistic due to the body language and lack of gratuitous dialogue. That implication of more emotional realism, even in comparison to pre-FFX games, is the point I was addressing seeing as the emotional realism was tenuous in this game.
Fair point, I won't argue as it's a separate matter and is subjective. Hope we're on the same page now.
Well, they were sort of lumped together, unlike X, where they all had some sort of link with each other, and VIII where they were all SeeDs apart from Rinoa- I think that the lack of closeness comes more from the fact that they were put together by coincidence more than anything else
Platinum_Lies
Blue Mage
We were reading a book? O man I knew I missed the train somewhere...
It is refreshing to have an actual argument with no name calling, hair pulling, low blows, or trolling. Other boards really need to take a cue from this one.