The Evolution of Final Fantasy: A discussion

[NeoTesseract]

It is evident, that we live in times unlike those of the 8, 16, 32 bit era. Time has become scant in the midst of the trivialities of everyday life. And tackling a game of the proportions of Final Fantasy 7, for the most of us, is quite impossible.

Various efforts have been made in this regard, by developers, to increase the feasibility of modern RPGs. Most notable efforts being the ever easier to master, and sometimes overly simplified, dynamically-oriented battle systems. The easy-to-pick up, extremely generic, dumb down storylines that plague a significant number of modern RPGS .The issues with a new evolution of linearity, evident in games like FFXIII and Enchanted Arms, where one goes from fast-paced hallway combat to cut-scenes. Now, I say notable because these are the efforts that have shined through (applauded by some, scorned by others) as the most significant changes to RPGs, or in this case, to Final Fantasy games in specific. However, it has become evident that the RPG as a genre has not approached the issues of condensing quality content into a smaller package successfully. More evident so, Final Fantasy as an independent entity among RPGs has not been changed or "tweaked" to accommodate the times. Thus prompting a lot of players like me, to simply skip the experiences because of school and/or work, narrowing down the potential targets for their market.

The discussion here be;

How will Final Fantasy as a trademark (or Square Enix if you prefer) , evolve to satisfy the newer generations, while keeping in mind the vast amount of veterans (like me) who request more condensed experiences, without dumb down story-telling, and mediocre one button smashing battles of today.

Will Final Fantasy branch out of the traditional RPG lineage into something different? ie. Versus XIII (not the best example)


Discuss!

 

[NeoTesseract]

Seriously? 40 views and not a single comment?

Is the modern FF Fan incapable of discussing his favorite series beyond how cute Yuna looks and which Final Fantasy setting
you would like to live in??

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[Martel]

Well, I wouldn't want to deny people this wonderful opportunity to disagree with me again, so why not? As far as I am concerned, there is absolutely nothing to discuss, because the thread title itself is the worst kind of oxymoron, but...well, I'll type out my standard rant using different words. Allow me to be the living personification of Square Enix's approach to Final Fantasy titles by repeating myself over and over using slightly different words so it looks like I'm doing something different when I'm actually not.

The short answer to this question: it won't, because developers and the majority of fans don't believe it needs to. The sales speak for themselves and, despite the turbulence FFXIII and its sequel have caused, they haven't reached the stage yet where they're panicking enough to actually do something drastic and try a different approach. Heaven forfend.

Final Fantasy hasn't changed because it has been such a success in the past. Video game developers have an utterly ridiculous idea in their collective minds that they can perfect a genre of games, that once they reach a certain point, that's it, all they need to do is recycle it constantly. Given the huge success of Final Fantasy, and the complete and utter lack of anything even remotely resembling objectivity in the fanbase or media, it's hardly surprising the franchise hasn't advanced at all since FFVII...hell, before that; more like from FFII onwards. Do you want to know why games like FFVII are considered "timeless classics"? Because in the time since the game was released and now, absolutely nothing has changed. A bar is set, and the sole desire is to match that bar; there is no drive to rise above it, because to do so would be blasphemy severe enough to see you getting crucified in the magazines that promote--sorry, I mean, review, these big-label products you're trying to match. Once you reach a certain point with genres, you don't get any improvements at all beyond the superficial from the majority of developers, because they don't see any need to change. People dislike it when I compare Final Fantasy to the likes of Mario, Zelda and Call of Duty, but as a series, they are all just constantly recycling concepts; nothing is new from one to the next. You can argue that is what makes them part of a series, and I would agree with you to a point, although serialisation is a huge problem for video games, as it encourages stagnation and does nothing to promote creativity, and this isn't something that is inherent to every single video game series; plenty of series have reinvented themselves across instalments and still performed successfully. FF's single differentiating factor is the story, and when the storyline of Final Fantasy games always follows the same predictable pattern, this is hardly a saving grace worth shouting about; it's just the same save-the-world plot with different character archtypes used hundreds of times before this anyway. The sole exceptions are FFXII, which was slammed down by the majority of the fans for trying to move beyond the shallow predictability of previous titles, and FFXIII, which sacrificed story for the sake of graphics, much as it sacrificed everything else for the sake of graphics.

Outside of the Final Fantasy series, the JRPG genre has more than evolved; as ever, I only have to direct your attention to Xenoblade to illustrate just how fantastic JRPGs can be. Battle systems can always be enhanced or changed for the better as well; the likes of Baten Kaitos, Resonance of Fate, Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria and Eternal Sonata are all fantastic examples of the adaptation of a standard turn-based combat system to make it fresh and exciting. But these are all one-off examples, in a sea of overwhelming mediocrity, where one title is pretty much the same as the next. It is Final Fantasy, specifically, that has refused to evolve in any way other than visually...a problem which is not unique to that series, but still, developers seem to think that graphics are enough to make the game these days, they think if they wave enough dazzle in your face you'll forget you're supposed to be playing the game and not just watching the screen. This has never been more evident than it has with FFXIII, a game which cut out absolutely EVERYTHING in favour of making it as flashy as possible. I'm not complaining about the things that don't really matter - like a lack of a world map and linearity; those are both illusions of freedom and nothing more unless you're playing something like Skyrim or Fallout; JRPGs are story-driven, and thus are linear by nature - but what I AM complaining about is the lack of development elsewhere, particularly with the Crystarium system, and a significantly reduced playtime for the main story, which itself was dismal. But it STILL sold hundreds of thousands of units, as did its sequel. As long as they break even, why do they need to bother changing? All that matters to them is that they make a profit; they don't give a damn if we don't like it unless enough people don't like it and it royally fucks their sales figures. Square Enix will NEVER learn their lesson unless the people who buy their games teach them by not purchasing them.

I can't see Final Fantasy ever changing until the sales of the games actually accurately reflect the quality of the titles, which won't happen for several more years at least; as long as people keep buying them, developers are going to keep on making them exactly the same. Their sole goal is to make money and, when cheap and easily produced mediocrity makes money, why bother delivering a quality experience? Because it makes MORE money? Not likely; it's a risk-reward situation, and the risk of being criticised and losing reputation (and thereby more money in the future) far outweighs the reward of potential gains...at least to the minds of these ignorant businesspeople who think they are catering to exactly the same market that they were twenty-five years ago now.

I have absolutely no clue how the next generation perceives video games; I can't understand how mindless shooters are so popular, but if I had to take a guess, I would say that things are becoming much more multiplayer-oriented than they used to be, thanks to the introduction of online gaming. FFXIV might have been Square Enix's attempt to appeal to the "next generation" of gamers if you will, by providing an MMO they could play with friends, so perhaps in the future we'll see Final Fantasy games on consoles with multiplayer modes; like the battle arena in XIII-2, only with friends controlling other characters or something like that. The Last Story has something similar to that and it's primarily a single-player experience, so it's a possibility...although given how truly atrocious The Last Story is, perhaps it isn't the best example I could have used.

On a minor note, Versus XIII is indeed not the best example, because there is absolutely nothing about it which indicates that it will be anything but more of the same. People really need to stop acting like it'll be Square Enix's return to form when there is absolutely nothing to indicate that...

That's how I see it; take it or leave it. I'm not going to bother discussing it because there is nothing to discuss, and because it always leads to the same circular arguments with people (always the same people as well; I already know exactly who is going to quote me if they see this, what they're going to quote, and what they're going to say in response) and it's boring as hell. I've lost count of the number of times this topic has cropped up, and it's always the same. Ultimately, what it boils down to is this: you have the cynics like me who have seen it all before and have long since gotten bored of it, and you have people who are still quite happy to put up with seeing the same thing over and over (or don't even see it that way; whichever works for them) and don't perceive the problem, because they haven't reached the stage where they stop and realise it's all the same and nothing has changed in the 15+ years they've been playing video games. They outnumber people like me. Until they don't, nothing will ever change...and given that there are people getting into these things now than there used to be, it's doubtful anything ever WILL change.

 

[Omegadruid]

I dont understand something. People that talk like Martel seem to not even like final fantasy games at all.. I mean the way you presented your arguments you are saying that final fantasy is shit, atleast thats what I perceived . If that is the case I dont even get why participating in ff forums and because that isnt probably the case.. I ask What RPG isnt about saving the world(name a few).. And where do you see the same thing all over again.. I cannot give you much insight regarding ff from 1-5 but from the 6 Final Fantasies I have played they are IN NO way the same thing.
FF6 - Battle system (Yes its classic final fantasy battle system) but the way you learn your abilities through espers is unique. The game has a large cast of characters with good development and yes the story may be about saving the world but it is very unique in the way it reaches to the point of saving the world.
FF7 - Unique and all brand new materia system, a huge different world that opens up after the 3rd disk for a series of sidequests and secrets outside the main story (This is where the game becomes less linear and if you think it is an illusion.. I mean how is it an illusion to be able to discover secret parts of the world that tell little pieces of history yet they are completely optional and mostly unrelated to the main plotline. If you want something less linear then this try MMORPG and I can say that even after 6 years of having played WoW, despite the fact that you can do a shitloads of stuff the game becomes worn out and repetitive). Tell me how is this story in any way similar to previous ff installments, you have a load of plot twists that are not predictable ( Unless you are so fucking genius and could guess that for example Aeris was going to die or that the Sephiroth we followed most of the game was jenova afterall or that cloud is a clone(by the game's definition) and is mentally disturbed copying someone else's personality).
FF8 - All new junction system and magic draw. You may dislike the system but how the hell is it the same as the previous installments? The story has a lot of twists and is so unpredictable(despite being somewhat poorly told) that it differs 100% from ff7. The characters are completely new they have different personalities, motivations and struggles. Tell me more about how similar final fantasies are...
Now I could continue to make the followup analysies of ff9 10 and 12 that are all very different in terms of Storyline and Gameplay. They all have huge worlds to explore and a load of time consuming sidequests that takes away some of the linearity of the main story. The stories all have different and unique plot twists and plot themselves.. The only similarity between ff stories are the main idea of saving the world(but the main point of the stories arent even that you save the world.. It is how you get to the circumstances of saving the world and what happens in between) but then again WHICH RPG ISNT ABOUT THAT?
Havent played 13 yet nor I will until I have a ps3 but so far from my final fantasy experience I can say that they are all unique on their own and different and very good. I dont get half of final fantasies fans.. They bash the series instead of loving them, atleast its what they express.

 

[NeoTesseract]

Just got back from work, let me try to absorb the long rant....

Before I begin, let me point out that Martel completely ignored the main point, keeping in mind the headline, and completely ignoring context.

How will Final Fantasy continue to evolve, to appeal to newer generations, while keeping the significant number of veterans in mind?

Martel, how would the tittle of this discussion be in itself, contradictory? Would you have rather me use "The Evolution of RPGs" instead? When we refer specifically to FF? Please explain, because your main flaw in reasoning is taking "The Evolution of Final Fantasy" and turning it into "The Transformation of Final Fantasy". Utterly fallacious understanding of a pretty straightforward topic.

Final Fantasy has indeed evolved, Martel, but not transformed into something entire different. This absolutely obliterates your argument, because you fail to comprehend a very simple question. The second question was "Will Final Fantasy Branch out of the traditional RPG lineage into something else?", now this question might have confused you. Branching out means, literally, to achieve diversification. It does not mean that the entire series will become an unknown entity, but rather it will experiment in certain titles with gameplay mechanics that might be considered unorthodox (ie. telling a Final Fantasy story in the style and manner of Dear Esther).Also, in the series, gameplay mechanics suffer tweaks and divergences, and so does the maturity in storytelling. It is evident everywhere, from the more traditional turn based battle systems in FFX, to the open environment experimental approach to battles present in FFXII. Same can be said for storytelling, in which point I agree with you that, the predictability of the evidently generic story-lines, is present in FF games. Something that needs to change if the series is to survive into the future of gaming generations. However, the storylines have evolved in the sense that simplicity and mediocrity of storytelling is present in recent games in the series, replacing the much better, intricately woven storytelling of the 16 and 32 bit eras. So you see, it is evident that an evolution of the series, albeit subtle and sometimes ineffective, occurs constantly from game to game in some form or another.

Now, keeping in mind what I just posted. Sales are driven by over-hyping and milking a trademark that was innovative and successful in the past, but that fails to deliver quality experiences while keeping things innovative yet familiar. This is very tricky to do. However, you can not in your right mind argue that initial sales yield to a good game, and that fans accept it as a good game. That reasoning rings alarm bells in my mind, for you see, games that see great initial figures that then plummet (like FFXIII) are the product of two things:

-Fan nostalgia

-Marketing

The Marketing strategy, the use of Pathos of sorts, to appeal to the fans is ever present in the advertising efforts for the series. People are driven by emotion and shiny things, so when we see the initial sales of FFXIII and then the sudden plummeting of those numbers, the influence of marketing to drive sheep into Gamestop is clear as water. As fans try the game out at a friend's house, or simply talk about it with others, sales plummet because word is out that the game is mediocre. Some will rent instead of buying to try it out (as I did). I have no idea where you read that FFXIII did very well; sufficed, but it lagged far behind the expected sales numbers after its launch.


Now in regards to other RPGs, I am very glad that you mentioned Xenoblade! A prime example of taking a little of the new and the old and turning it into a great RPG experience! Fresh and nostalgic.

"I can't see Final Fantasy ever changing until the sales of the games actually accurately reflect the quality of the titles, which won't happen for several more years at least; as long as people keep buying them, developers are going to keep on making them exactly the same. Their sole goal is to make money and, when cheap and easily produced mediocrity makes money, why bother delivering a quality experience? Because it makes MORE money? Not likely; it's a risk-reward situation, and the risk of being criticised and losing reputation (and thereby more money in the future) far outweighs the reward of potential gains...at least to the minds of these ignorant businesspeople who think they are catering to exactly the same market that they were twenty-five years ago now. "

I would agree with the above almost entirely, except that I am aware that FFXIII, XIII-2, and XIV did not meet the expectations of predicted sales numbers, and did not satisfy a good portion of the fanbase.As sales begging to plummet, we will indeed see a more aggressive audacious Square-Enix. This is a business, and if they are not meeting their own sales numbers, the will begin to take greater well thought-out risks, or suffer.

"I have absolutely no clue how the next generation perceives video games; I can't understand how mindless shooters are so popular, but if I had to take a guess, I would say that things are becoming much more multiplayer-oriented than they used to be, thanks to the introduction of online gaming "


Agreed, very much. Perhaps a divergence into multiplayer of sorts without turning the damn game into an MMO might be interesting.

About Versus XIII, it appears to be an action adventure game with RPG elements. Which has been attempted before with "Dirge of Cerberus", and we all know how that turned out. You are right however, until we see more of it, there is no reason to keep this hyped expectancy.

Mmmm, it has been discussed in the past? Please, point me to the thread. Would be an interesting read.


Lets have constructive criticism and less rants.

 

[Starships]

I too disagree that nothing has changed within the series. As the games have gone on the battle systems have gone through tons of changes and small elements throughout the games have gone from improved to sadly worse than the previous games.

At the moment SquareEnix are now focusing on graphics and beauty on the appearance of the games than actual substance which is leading to disappointing results. Though this is perfectly normal. Many gaming evolutions have low points and this is Final Fantasy's time. Usually what goes up goes down just like a rollercoster ride. A main example of this is the Sonic the Hedgehog series. For a while the series struggled and only now is the series coming back up on the right path.

Whether the Final Fantasy games get better or worse is up to SquareEnix. Whether the evolution ends in a bomb or a parade of fireworks is up to the company. It's their choice.

The Final Fantasy games started out rather complexed yet simple due to limits due to older consoles like the NES. Though thanks to graphic upgrades Square could create want they wanted and design want they had originally planned from the beginning. The lack of limits lead them to create more fantasy worlds and develop stronger characters.

However the upgrade in graphics is now leading towards their doom. Instead of helping them it's now destroying them and they're starting to loose tons of fans.

Final Fantasy had has it's golden age which was during the SNES area and PlayStation area. Now it's just a shadow of what it used to be. The games however despite being good or bad are still extremely different and are always changing so I don't understand where that idea is coming from.


A example of this is Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy VIII. No way are they're the exact and dull same. They're way completely different. No Junction system, no cards, no GFS, Aeons are controllable, complete different battle systems.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

How will Final Fantasy as a trademark (or Square Enix if you prefer) , evolve to satisfy the newer generations, while keeping in mind the vast amount of veterans (like me) who request more condensed experiences, without dumb down story-telling, and mediocre one button smashing battles of today.

Will Final Fantasy branch out of the traditional RPG lineage into something different? ie. Versus XIII (not the best example)

I hesitate to reply to this. Mainly because its difficult to answer without reciting borish truisms and splitting hairs via dull knife.

One characteristic of a 'classic' may be that it transcends an age barrier and appeals to all types of people from all age demographics.

Like say........ Harry Potter. In theory, they're children's books, but there are young and old adults who are fanatical about the genre. The same might be said of Lord of the Rings. It was published in the 1950's but still appeals to younger audiences.

What SE needs is a game that is as much a classic as Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. Its not necessarily an exclusive thing where appeal is reserved for the young or the old, but moreso that something *good* appeals universally and everyone can enjoy it.

In SE's case.... I suspect an ever increasing pie slice of their development cycle is consumed in keeping up with evolving hardware( moore's law, etc). They feel obligated to push the hardware to its limits and it becomes increasingly difficult and time consuming to accomplish. The main selling point in determining whether someone buys a game involves visual cues -- screenshots, trailers, etc. People get excited over trailers and screenshots and little else. Its a flawed premise. Its impossible to make gameplay, story or plot an initial selling point as details tend to be concealed & its difficult to have a good overview of how a combat system or gameplay stack ups within the grand scheme of things until you've actually played the game.

There are reviews, but those can be biased and untrustworthy at times, so word of mouth on forums like these may be considered most reliable. But, even here it seems 50% of people loved FF XIV and 50% hated it. So, who can say for certain how good a game is? ..

I would like to make my own FF-esque game... in my own mind I think I would show SE how its done. Then, they would have to copy things I did and try to clone my approach as it would be vastly superior to their own.

But, I would guess that's me being entitled to my delusions moreso than anything.

 

[NeoTesseract]

In SE's case.... I suspect an ever increasing pie slice of their development cycle is consumed in keeping up with evolving hardware( moore's law, etc). They feel obligated to push the hardware to its limits and it becomes increasingly difficult and time consuming to accomplish. The main selling point in determining whether someone buys a game involves visual cues -- screenshots, trailers, etc. People get excited over trailers and screenshots and little else. Its a flawed premise. Its impossible to make gameplay, story or plot an initial selling point as details tend to be concealed & its difficult to have a good overview of how a combat system or gameplay stack ups within the grand scheme of things until you've actually played the game.

Richard hows it going, bro?

This, this is very interesting. Instead of exploiting the latest technology for all its worth, perhaps they can develop a FF game that focuses on less photo-realism, and more fantasy.

The only point that I would correct is that, consoles are non-upgradeable hardware. Moore's law of exponential growth in computing power should not affect the direct development of a videogame within a given console's lifespan.


Still, I too feel that the development cycle is focused heavily on achieving photo realistic graphics with the available hardware, instead of achieving new and interesting gameplay mechanics and style.

I will state once more, Dear Esther is a thriving example of what can be accomplished if a positive divergence in gaming occurs.