So which Cloud pairing do you think is displayed most in the film?

[Daenerys]

Id have to say that the Cleris/Clerith paiting was prominant in this film, because, well IMO the films secondary plotline (after the whole sephiroth thing whith Loz Yazoo And Kadaj) is Cloud feeling guilty about not being able to prevent aeris' death and wanting to be forgiven by her, and the final scene where he sees Aeris and smiles sorta closes it for me, i think this film is shown from a Cleris point of view.

 

[Serah]

I've always thought Cloud and Aerith belonged together. Tifa (this is just my opinion) is more of a close best friend to Cloud. I don't believe that Cloud has feelings for like her like does for Aerith. I think Cloud did love Aerith and he'll always love her. I know he blamed himself for so long for her death, calling it one of his "sins" because he couldn't save her. He just continued to beat himself up over it. You also see the expression that crosses his face when he sees Aerith just before he smiles at the end. I think that should say something right there I know Tifa probably does have feelings for Cloud and she's doing her best to create her little "family" with he, Denzel and sometimes Marlene, I just don't believe a romantic relationship would happen in between she and Cloud. Just my opinion so don't flame me

 

[Britalia]

I agree with Lady Aerith on most of that. Tifa and Cloud are more really good friends. A lot of people they're in love with each other when they're not (This is coming from personal experience ).

Cloud sees Aeris in his memory many times in the movie. He blamed himself for her death. Thinking he "let her die" and everything. It was obvious that he loved her more than anything.

Although the Cloud and Tifa relationship seems a bit more possible in the movie, Cloud still loves Aeris too much. And Tifa and Cloud just seem better off as friends.

 

[Aya]

I would probably agree that a Cloud and Aeris relationship is shown more deeply in the film than a Cloud and Tifa relationship. It has always been obvious to me that Tifa cares deeply for Cloud and that he cares for her but in truth, I do believe that they would always be best friends moreso than lovers. Tifa, in my opinion, is stubborn and keeps her feelings close to her - I wouldn't imagine her 'making a move' with Cloud, unless he did with her. And Cloud is still locked in his feelings with Aeris - conflicting between a possible love, a deep admiration and a horrible sense of guilt that he can never forgive himself for letting her die - that he would never move on from her. He'd keep her memory with him forever. Or so I see it.

I love the Tifa and Cloud pairing but I think he and Aeris are destined to be together - even in death.

 

[Dark Fantasy X]

Well that is true that Cloud felt responsible and that he still loved Aerith, though didn't Aerith love cloud as well in FFVII, as well as that Tifa and Cloud really are just friends nothing more, though they might fall in love with each other eventually, thoug for the sake of this argument, Cloud and Aerith really did love each other, so she really shouldn't have died in FFVII

 

[ChocoKing]

odvously aeris because he always breaks off to a white place with aeris complaining how he let her die and stuff

 

[Dark Tidus]

I think Clerith is displayed moreso in the film because you actually see them together... Don't forget about Zack though he pops up a lot too... Cloud goes into scenes with Aerith though, he doesn't do that with Tifa though it's obvious they care for eachother...

 

[Tana]

Oh boy. Well, I'm not trying to offend anyone since the majority beleive in Cleris (though it is more fandom, imo, as the story text and narrative seems to imply more of a Cloud and Tifa romance). Nomura describes Tifa as a koibito in Japanese, which is Japanese for lover/girlfriend. Tifa and Cloud also start raising "their" children that Aeris brought to them in CoT - and to add to that, Aeris smiles approvingly at Cloud and Tifa like a mother in her story, Maiden of the Plant. She also stated she was jelous of Tifa.

Also, guilt=/=love. It would be quite shallow for people to say that the source of Cloud's guilt was about Aeris, Aeris, Aeris. Cloud barely sees Aeris in this movie, and when he does, if he was pining for her out of love, he would have said, instead of "I want to be forgiven", "I love you Aeris". But he didn't.

Another thing to notice is that if you've read CoT, it explains very well how Cloud was optimistic about starting a new life with Tifa and how he always failed previously because he didn't have her - which leads me to beleive that Cloud and Tifa is the one. Sure, they start having their problems in the story, but Cloud had to fall in some way and turn depressed. Fact: The happier Cloud gets, the scareder he becomes, because he's afraid he'll lose it all. In AC, he takes sword in hand again for his loved ones. He doesn't want to be a failure.

Which leads to the story of AC, where Cloud sinks into depression. And finally, the resolution that "I'm not alone." And he's not. He has his family, friends, and his faithful koibito by his side.

CloudxTifa forever! <3

 

[Garnet]

Nice to see a valid, thought out argument for the Cloud/Tifa point of view.

But you can explain it away all you want, but I have to go with Clerith, it's just always been my gut feeling.

 

[Dark Tidus]

WOW that is an extremely well thought out argument and I cannot argue with it, If I had to try I'd end up saying something you already stated was wrong...

 

[Scrutator]

I'm with the Cloud/Tifa pairing, I've always thought that the time that Aerith spends with Cloud he is in the Zack frame of mind which means his feelings for her may not be 100% genuine and the same for the other, the way that Aerith reacts when coming to terms that Zack maybe dead and how they are with each other in Before Crisis are other things to consider. Aerith for me actually loves Zack and cares for Cloud like a brother.

His guilt at the end of the game and through to AC was because he felt guilty that he was responsible for her death rather because of love (he actually asks for forgiveness as said above) while Cloud and Tifa strikes me as one of those relationships that are brought up from a good friendship.

 

[Tana]

Nice to see a valid, thought out argument for the Cloud/Tifa point of view.

But you can explain it away all you want, but I have to go with Clerith, it's just always been my gut feeling.

Haha, thank you.

People can like their pairings all they want, or prefer Cloud and Aeris all they want, but if I go with the quotes from the character creator himself, it comes down to a Cloud/Tifa conclusion, fandom and crazy LTD biases aside.

I guess I should explain myself better for the sake of the argument. Well, here's some text from CoT (Case of Tifa) to prove my point:

But when I think about how many times I've thought about starting a new life, it's funny."

"Why?"

"I've always failed to do it."

"That's not funny."

"...I think it will be all right this time."
Cloud became very quiet for a moment. Then he said, "Because you're with me."

"But I haven't always been with you."

"That's how it will be starting from tomorrow," Cloud replied smiling again.

Do a double take if needed. Yep, that's Cloud saying those words. Cloud Strife, who barely says anything about his feelings, let alone opens up to any woman in the game like that. And saying that he wants her by his side always? (woa, makes me think of Tidus and Yuna a bit)

Cloud's totally a closet romantic. :mellow:

I find that it ties in directly with the Highwind scene, in that aslong as they're together they won't be scared. Of course, this would also make the Highwind scene romantic...

Hmm... But that's all right, even if no one comes back. As long as I'm with you... As long as you're by my side... I won't give up even if I'm scared. ..."

So the feeling that they would feel as if everything is alright aslong as they are together is mutual then.

Also interesting to note that Cloud mentions everytime he tried living in the past he failed. If Cloud is so torn with greif by the death of Aeris, you think he'd sound a little more depressed, and not so eager and optimistic to spend the rest of his life with his woman "friend".

So why does Cloud feel the most at peace when Tifa is by his side?

Can you feel the love tonight? /lolz lion king referance

When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said to her, "It's not like you to be troubled by your thoughts."

"It's... Just the way I am."

"No. You're much more cheerful and strong. If you've forgotten the way you were then, I'll be there to remind you."

"You really will?"

"Probably," Cloud said, blushing.

Hmm, now when did Cloud ever blush around any other woman like that? Cute.

And just for some icing on the cake:

"And you're wrong, Cloud."

Cloud looked dubiously at Tifa.

"Aerith didn't bring Denzel to you."

"Yeah, that's what I thought too."

"Aerith brought that child to us, didn't she?"

Cloud gazed at Tifa and finally smiled. It had that kindness that made her think everything was all right.

Whoo! Ah, anyway, I think SE's leaning towards Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aeris. Makes the most sense. Two couples: One living, one dead. Everybody is happy that way.

 

[Serah]

You know to be perfectly honest, I don't think Square ever has the intentions on showing us any romance between either pair because for 1. It would piss of the fans if they put Cloud with just one in particular and 2. I think they like the idea of keeping us all wondering and guessing. Obviously yes Cloud moved on with his family or whatever but it doesn't mean he's romantically involved with Tifa because Cloud does not display romantic feelings towards her and it certainly doesn't mean he's lost his feelings for Aerith either. So we'll probably just keep wondering and guessing and that's it *shrugs* None of those things you pointed out are offical work from Nomura himself, just fanfictions so we don't even know at all and probably never will, but none of those suggest romantic feelings towards Tifa, they more suggest his care for her

 

[Tana]

It would piss of the fans if they put Cloud with just one in particular

Lol, don't say that! It's like you're saying Nomura is stupid and he doesn't even know his own characters. Any seasoned writer or someone who takes their work seriously would know what their characters are like inside and out, and even though precious fans may be fans, it shouldn't stop them from telling it like it is. Such as the answer to the LTD, which has already been answered, but some people do not beleive it to be so...

I guess it stems from the fact that FF7 came out in 1997 and some people are still in that frame of mind that Cloud's true love interest will never be revealed, and from the numerous LTD debates on the web or otherwise that they have been, they just can't let that state of mind go. And it's probably hard, because it's like 10 years of keeping that same mindset.

This seems to be a popular opinion of fans and the only excuse people can come up with why Nomura won't end the LTD, but it's very much false. There is no LTD. Just look at the story. The answers are all there. I don't think Nomura really cares at all if he pisses off the fans. They're his characters.

Obviously yes Cloud moved on with his family or whatever but it doesn't mean he's romantically involved with Tifa because Cloud does not display romantic feelings towards her

Oh my. I'm curious as to why you think that, as I have provided my reasons from actual text within the story and quotes from Tetsuya Nomura himself.

She is described as a lover in the FF7 AC: Reunion Files (who's lover in the sexual romantic context? Well, who else?) a mother (a mother to Denzel and Marlene) and an ally (an ally among AVALANCHE).

Also, from Case Of Tifa.

Cloud and Tifa agree that Aeris brought Denzel to them.
Cloud knowing everything will be alright now that Tifa's by his side.
Cloud looking to Tifa for confirmation of everything.
Cloud comforting Tifa when she's crying.
Cloud getting embarassed about not knowing the names of vegetables.

And those are things that Cloud has not done with anyone else, let alone Aeris.

None of those things you pointed out are offical work from Nomura himself, just fanfictions so we don't even know at all and probably never will,

Actually, no. They were published by Square Enix themselves and the writer of Case of Tifa was Mr. Nojima, who wrote the story for Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children. He is the guy who said this:

but none of those suggest romantic feelings towards Tifa, they more suggest his care for her

Then I suppose any gesture of care Cloud shows towards Aeris is platonic then, since you know, if his actions towards Tifa are considered platonic (touching her orthopedic underwear, promising to be her hero and joining SOLDIER for her, brushing her hair back in LO in a gesture of tender-ness, saying her additude is the only one that counts, saying that everything will be okay aslong as she is by his side, agreeing to be raising kids with her) are considered platonic, then Cloud calling Aeris 'Mother' in AC must be like the sickest kind of incest there is. A joke, of course. But still. The point still stands. Also worth noting is that Cloud is described as "being drawn to Aeris's maternal presence" in the movie, suggesting absolutely nothing about him feeling guilty over her because of love.

The Reunion Files describe practically everything about the movie you may be wondering about, and the only thing I can say is this: Aeris = maternal presence and Tifa = koibito (lover/girlfriend in Japanese). And these are straight from the creator's minds. So, if you want to know more aboute the Reunion Files and what the creators think, don't hesitate to ask me if you have any questions. I'll be glad to answer.

 

[Serah]

Girl I'm not going to argue with you, I'm not going to fight with you, but we all have our own damned opinions so don't shove yours on me, got it?

 

[Tana]

Girl I'm not going to argue with you, I'm not going to fight with you, but we all have our own damned opinions so don't shove yours on me, got it?

I wasn't shoving my opinion on you, "girl", as I thought that I was being very polite about it. That said, you don't have to act so defensive. But just be forwarned that if you bring your opinions into a topic of debate that other people are going to try and pull out the facts. And you were also wrong about CoT being a fanfic because it wasn't and I was just trying to inform you.

 

[Serah]

CoT wasn't written BY Nomura himself so therefore, in a way, yes it is a fanfic. You want fact? Here's a link.

ClAeris

There's more fact right there. Also if you rememeber the game trailer in the trailer it shows Cloud laying Aerith in the water and it says and I quote "A love that could never be" so that doesn't mean Cloud ever stopped loving Aerith. I think he will always love her. And Cloud and Tifa, childhood best friends? The only thing they had from their childhood was the promise. Cloud was an outcast if you remember correctly. I'm sorry but my opinion is that I do not see Cloud and Tifa romantically and you can take it or leave it. *shrug* Oh yeah, and don't mock me

 

[Tana]

CoT wasn't written BY Nomura himself so therefore, in a way, yes it is a fanfic. You want fact? Here's a link.

Actually, no. They were published by Square Enix themselves and the writer of Case of Tifa was Mr. Nojima, who wrote the story for Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children.

ClAeris

Well, I read this woman's arguments and I find that there are a lot of flaws behind them.

What's funny is that a lot of her arguments are based on heuristic decision making and not logos (logic). You can tell in the way she come about her "argument." Heuristics is a shortcut thinking process -- it saves time because one doesn't think really deeply about something, but its never truly correct. It makes judges based on a small percentage of what is actually known.

The arguments for the coke cans/commericals, other game cameos, and FF7 promotional material (like Amano's art) all come from this decision making. Here's why:

When you see Cloud and Aeris on a coke can, and if you were to know nothing about them, what would you think? You would expect that, going on a proximity bias, that just because a male and a female are paired together on something, they must have a connection. The "argument" isn't really based on their actual relationship, but because of the shortcut in reasoning. You can't say why based on the knowledge the coke can gives you of the characters.

Another one is the idea of social truths: just because of certain number of people believe in something, doesn't mean its true. Just because so many people have faith that God exists, it doesn't mean that that is proof he actually exists. So when people believe that they is a love triangle just because so many fans choose one girl or the other, it doens't really mean there is a love triangle still in existence among the characters themselves. You have to reason where this love triangle exists among the characters, not just because people think so that it must be true.

I guess the point is that a lot of the arguments aren't based on the characters themselves. Its not based on the story at all. Its a shallow analyses.

10. "There is a 'shocking' new book out called Final Fantasy VII Dismantled and it has CloTi proof in it!"

Yeah, I looked into this so-called "CloTi proof" and it is just like the rest of the "evidence" on this page: crap. Guess what the CloTis were using as "proof"? This quote:

Cloud: "Everyone left to find what they're fighting for. To that, Tifa stayed. I don't have to look for what I'm fighting for, Tifa taught me that---"

So, true to their nature, the CloTis automatically assume Cloud is speaking of Tifa. Did Cloud actually say he was fighting for Tifa? No. He said Tifa taught him that he didn't have to look for what he was fighting for. And, anyways, this entire quote is a huge mis-translation by a certain biased CloTi. Vilaeth, the site translator for *******************, and someone who doesn't give a rip about the "love triangle" (he doesn't support either side) provided me with the correct translation:

Cloud: "Furthermore, Tifa's here for me. I'm not fighting alone, Tifa taught me that---"

Then, Vilaeth stated that Cloud did not have to specify what he was fighting for, because he had already commented on what was the most important thing to him in the paragraph before the quote about Tifa (translated by Vilaeth):

Cloud: "Even so, I have to fight. So, I can leave my past behind me. So I can be myself. And above all--- to unfreeze her smile."

So, the most important thing to Cloud is to "unfreeze" Aerith's smile. He never mentioned Tifa at all. Tifa taught him that he was not fighting alone- that is all. Cloud only spoke of Aerith in the moments before heading off to the final battle. Even when he was faced with Sephiroth, he only spoke of Aerith. Even at the end of FFVII, all Cloud did was speak of meeting Aerith again. How much more do you need?

The CloTis also like to bring up a quote from Dismantled in which Aerith compared Cloud to Zack. However, what they like to leave out is the part in which Aerith states that Cloud is nothing like Zack, and actually calls Cloud "slow". XD He is slow about women, if you think about it. He never even caught on to how Tifa felt about him and she practically came out and told him underneath the Highwind. They also like to leave out the part where Aerith states that she likes Cloud more than Zack anyways. They leave it out because this nulls and voids that lame "Aerith didn't love Cloud because she still loved Zack" theory (which has already been proven wrong anyways if you have read "Maiden of the Planet").

The CloTis also don't want me to bring up the ClAeris proof that is contained in Dismantled. Cloud's thoughts after Aerith's death (translated by Vilaeth):

Cloud: "Aerith is dead. Right in front of my eyes... I couldn't stop Sephiroth. She was in my reach, and all I could do is stand there and watch as his sword ran through Aerith. All the time Aerith used to smile, like a flower. But, Aerith won't smile anyway. I won't be able to hear her innocent laugh again. What did she do? Why did Aerith have to be killed? What am I supposed to do about this anger, it's like endlessly boiling and burning up my body. Yet at the same time, I was afraid. Like a chill coming from the core of my body. When I found Aerith there, offering up some prayer, what did I try to do? If my friends hadn't stopped me at that moment, I would have struck my sword down on Aerith. It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia--- Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---"

Cloud speaks of Aerith's death in a very personal sense, comparing her smile to a flower, reflecting sorrowfully on how he would never be able to hear her "innocent laugh" again. He also speaks of the uncontrollable rage he feels over her death. [1] This is supported by the fact that part of the reason Cloud tracked down Sephiroth was to get revenge for Aerith's murder. [2] I also find it interesting to note that Cloud is asking Aerith to confirm who he is. [3] The CloTis like to claim that Cloud is closest to Tifa. However, this statement says otherwise. Why else would Cloud ask Aerith who he really was if he did not believe she knew who he was deep down inside? This is because Cloud could only ever really be himself around Aerith. Around Tifa, Cloud was always forced to live up to her expectations of him as "SOLDIER First Class Cloud".

The first one is a heuristic. She's going off one quote, one line to make her conclusion about something. It doesn't answer the question why Cloud wants to unfreeze her smile. What she's done here is taken the line completely out of the context of the story. Her "argument" is that if Cloud's mission right now is take revenge for Aeristh's death, then he must love her. See the logic gap? She doesn't take into account Cloud's feeling of failure and responsibility for her death. She made a short-cut decision here, either because she knows that she has no proof or she thinks this works as an argument.

That is actually what the whole argument about "Cloud being emo, so therefore he must love Aeris" is based on. It's an assumption, without looking into the text first and determining exactly what happened and why Cloud is so emo, that it is because he loves Aeris. Its not being backed up with any whys or hows.

The second one is a mix of both.

[1] Notice how she uses the word "fact" here, as in she's showing evidence. She's trying to play off logic, so now she's twisting. But, she says "part of the reason," which works against her because it shows that Aeris is not the sole purpose Cloud is going after Sephiroth, which contradicts how she makes it seem in the blue text where she used a heuristic to get to that conclusion. She's trying to use her evidence to twist it into an argument but it doesn't work because a) she's ignoring the context of the narrative and b) she's not giving us all the facts. Being a little selective with evidence here to make an argument out of something that's not an argument... pretty shady, no?

[2] This is another heuristic, that if her twist on logic works to persuade the reader, it works as a tie in to discredit Tifa and give Aeris an attribute she never held in the narrative to begin with. The problem starts because she misread the passage. She has, yet again, taken these lines completely out of context of the narrative and is just going on this passage to make her judgments. What is Cloud expressing here? How does this tie into the narrative? Please note Cloud's words: "I couldn't stop Sephiroth..." "I was afraid" "What did I try to do?" "I would have struck my sword down on Aeris.." Am I the only one seeing how this ties into Cloud's sense of failure at everything he does? He failed Aeris and that's what he's showing here. He's directing the blame at himself.

Also, Cloud's last lines here: "It was something separate from my own will... it was like when I gave Sephiroth the Black Materia--- Who am I? I'm EX-SOLDIER Cloud... right? Tell me, Aerith---" We have to remember that Cloud is having an identity crisis. He even asks, "Who am I?" And he wants Aeris to confirm that he is an EX-SOLDIER. Does anybody else see what this hints at? Aeristh was at first attracted to Cloud's Zackiness.. so what do you think Aeris brought out in Cloud? Maybe more Zackiness?

[3] Since now she misread (or reading it how she wants to) the passage and saw it only as Cloud worshipping Aeristh instead of him blaming himself for her death and then questioning his own identity (tying into his mental illness here), she takes it a step further and makes another heuristic saying that only Aeris knew the real Cloud. However, both MotP and the game itself directly contradict with this. She made the judgment without consulting the context. Would she be able to explain a how and why this all works within the context of the narrative? No, I highly doubt it.

Also the part about Tifa being closest to Cloud and knowing Cloud best... didn't the creators confirm that? And, the narrative shows that she is the one that knows Cloud best.

"This is because Cloud could only ever really be himself around Aerith." -- This doesn't make any sense with the very passage she's using because she misread the damn thing. Now she's trying to make a twist with a heuristic.

"Around Tifa, Cloud was always forced to live up to her expectations of him as "SOLDIER First Class Cloud"." -- The passage seems to suggest that it wasn't Tifa, but Aeris he was being "SOLDIER First Class Cloud" around. Tifa isn't even mentioned in the passage, so she's doing it again: making a judgment that just because she claims one girl knows the real him, the other doesn't, and then she's trying to use it to make a twist.

This is how Amanda's logic works: make a judgment with heuristic, then try to further its as an argument by twisting something, then add heuristics, and then put a final twist at the end so you're sending a message that is completely untrue. Propaganda works pretty much the same way. It latches onto a person's bias about things, and then makes itself an argument through distortion.

Also if you rememeber the game trailer in the trailer it shows Cloud laying Aerith in the water and it says and I quote "A love that could never be" so that doesn't mean Cloud ever stopped loving Aerith.

Commercials can often be misleading. Just think of the Star Wars commercials. How many times have commercials mislead people into buying a product, whether it be a game or a movie? Romance appeals to many people, so it could have been something that they just included to catch people's attention. Also, the words, "A hatred that always was" is untrue. Cloud didn't always hate Sephiroth, infact, he admired him very much. That is, until he burned down his hometown. THAT was when he started hating him. But it was never a hatred that always was. I'd sooner trust the creators than a third party that couldn't care about Cloud's love interest either way. They're just in it for the money.

The only thing they had from their childhood was the promise. Cloud was an outcast if you remember correctly.

Which is why he wanted Tifa's attention and joined SOLDIER for her. There's a reason the promise was made -- and emphasized, in the narrative. And their promise is also hilighted in Last Order.

I'm sorry but my opinion is that I do not see Cloud and Tifa romantically and you can take it or leave it. *shrug*

That's fine, but I'm simply stating what the creators think about Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris. Since they were created by them.

Oh yeah, and don't mock me

Then address me by my name. I have one, you know, and it isn't "girl".

And you seem to be getting rather defensive of your opinion. Calm down.

 

[Rasputin]

I swear, Advent Children has the most confusing story in the history of the world. I don't recall the names "Cleris" or "Cloti" being mentioned once in the entire movie. Who in the heck are you talking about?

 

[Tana]

I swear, Advent Children has the most confusing story in the history of the world. I don't recall the names "Cleris" or "Cloti" being mentioned once in the entire movie. Who in the heck are you talking about?

Lol. I don't think the plot of AC was that hard to get, though the plot of FFVII could be hard to understand sometimes. But I think that was mostly due to... a lot of localization errors and mistranslation.

And 'Cleris' and 'Cloti' are like fandom names to represent which Cloud pair you 'ship'. It's basically just combining Cloud and Aeris and Cloud and Tifa's names together.

Then again I don't know why I just told you that because it must be pretty obvious. But still. I agree that we shouldn't refer to eachother as 'Cloti' or 'Cleris' all the type, because it's like... what if you don't really 'ship' any of these pairings at all? Can't you just be neautral?