NY gov says Islamic group won't relocate mosque

[Marquis of Granby]

I'm not saying don't talk about religion, I'm saying to please tie it into the topic. The thread title is "NY gov says Islamic group won't relocate mosque", not "Are Islams bad?" or "How do you compare Islam with Christianity?". The last several posts have been about comparing and stated passages in religious documentation, which is not about a mosque in NY or the governor of NY's religious beliefs.

what strikes me is that youre calling them "islams" and you've previously said they practice "muslim". they are muslims. they practice islam. they dont practice extremism and they dont want to bomb you.

It's still a very hardheaded approach to me. A building is nothing more than a pile of bricks. They can preach wherever they want and wherever they want sure, but a religious building is symbolism which ties directly to the affair of 9 years ago.



But it's a question of proximity. Also, there are those who I would say have a valid argument in having reservations over a mosque so close to a site which has become symbolic for international terrorism.



Which is fair enough. I hadn't suggested what they were doing was illegal but perhaps a tad bit derespectful, symbolically speaking of course, to some locals who would have reservations on the idea.



Wrong when referencing the constitution? The same constitution that allows America to go to war with whomever they please? I don't mean for this to be an attack, but people call religion arbitrary...



A church is wherever two Christians convene to discuss the Bible. If you're referring to the building, it's just materials. If you're referring to a hierarchy, no such thing exists on Earth unless you're speaking of Catholicism.



"Caesar's," They replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, And to God what is God's" - Matthew 22:21

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27

Christian's are not exempt from the law unless it collides with the values of the Bible. If a Church 'leader' breaks the law imprison him.



The problem is some are misinterpreted while others could well be genuine. By saying all religions have to be fall under the same scrutiny of their referencing is fine, but many people hide behind the argument of pointing to what they believe to be another religion's faults once they believe their own has been exposed. The same would apply to socially conscious Agnostics/Atheists who ironically enough will make a sweeping generalisation on every religion to spare one from scrutiny and seem 'fair', as it were. I'm not accusing you of this btw, only that it happens. Often.



They were muslims. Whether you believe they were adhering to the moral code of Islam is different to what they were. They believed Allah was the only God and Muhammed was his messenger.



Ask any islamic leader who does send people on such missions and see what they say.



But the belief does. If you've accepted Jesus as the Son of God you have submitted yourself to his judgement, free will would allow you to do whatever you wanted (rape, murder, etc) and only the state (Caesar) and God could judge you.



And the same to those who would suggest Islam is a peaceful religion. If you want to make an informed opinion on Islam you need only read the Quran or obtain several translated copies and see how they compare to one another. Of course someone of a given religion would advertise their religion in the most appealing manner, we can't take that attitude as a given just because it's what we'd like to believe.



Assumptions are the bane of this society. We assume too much and no one actually wants to learn. No one actually wants to broaden their horizons.

In school we are rarely taught to think independently, we're taught to behave, to fit in. Assumption breeds ignorance and bigotry.

I've heard verses from the Qu'ran that preach subjugation and violence from muslims. I've heard these verses have been taken out of context from what people would call 'normal' muslims. The difference? The former makes a much more incisive argument than the latter, who in my experiences at least makes no argument whatsoever other than 'they've been taken out of context'.

i'll ignore cali. and most of your multiquotes. since youre both christian i wouldnt expect you to have a good word to say about any other religion, let alone respect anyone's right to it.

on one hand we have cali quoting all the bad passages from the qu'ran (at least those that google will let her lay her hands on). and you counter quoting all jesse's passages from the bible. we're not allowed to quote anything bad from the bible because jesus says its all wrong, but we'll continue to slate islam because we're all ignorant christians?

yes, they were muslim. they might also have been builders or plumbers, but i dont see anyone hating tradesmen because a few arabic builders or plumbers crashed a plane into a building.

you're blind to the evils of your own faith, so it would be sensible to stay out of debates like this. or at least not try to make it a competition about who's the lesser evil, because theyre all as bad as each other.

 

[The Witch]

Why Cali thinks the way she does isn't related to NY in any way so I anything I post regarding that will be off topic and so I can't debate.

Figures. I accept my win.

i'll ignore cali. and most of your multiquotes. since youre both christian i wouldnt expect you to have a good word to say about any other religion, let alone respect anyone's right to it.

Why? Because my quotes from the Qur'an prove my point? And you're wrong. I happen to believe Buddhist are amazing. Jews are my God's chosen people--I must love them. So you're wrong, Jimmeh. You're wrong.

Now, read those Qur'an quotes and tell me if you still feel they're not violent. It's not even that much to read *double checks* Oh, hell yeah it is A LOT to read.

Sorry, Jimmeh, but you have to read these if you want to take part in this debate;
“Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari IX:69

“Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39

“Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:9:123


“Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no Hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:193


“The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Tabari VII:97

“Muhammad’s Companions are the best in war.”
Ishaq:472

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Wow, are they talking about destroying Christians and Jews?

Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

 

[Marquis of Granby]

learn arabic and read the qu'ran yourself instead of looking on your kkk arab-hating websites.

youre a christian, dont claim to know anything about any other religion. all thats clear from your quotes is how little you know and how easily youre willing to believe bullshit thats said about other people.

my god told me to make this post.

my god also told me to love my neighbour, even if that neighbour is a muslim.

i think thats similar to your god, though it would seem you're not following his commands...oh dear.

 

[Toshiya]

I wholeheartedly agree with Jim, neutral religious debates aren't possible if you belong to one of the religions.
You have to accept that all religions have flaws; including Christianity, including Islam.
That absolutely DOES NOT MEAN that all Christians or Muslims are racist/terrorist/whatever.
Also, saying that they're not 'proper Muslims' if they don't follow the passages of violence is like saying you're not a proper Christian if you have sex before marriage. Not everyone follows every bit of their religion.

 

[The Witch]

learn arabic and read the qu'ran yourself instead of looking on your kkk arab-hating websites.

I wrote those down from the Qur'an I have next to my desk. Next lame argument.

EDIT: Holy crap, you just called me a racist? Are you friggin' kidding me?! You've got to be FRIGGIN' kidding me. My mother's cousin is BLACK. My favorite singer of all time is Nancy Ajram-- a Lebanese singer. Don't call "Racist" anytime someone proves their point.

youre a christian, dont claim to know anything about any other religion. all thats clear from your quotes is how little you know and how easily youre willing to believe bullshit thats said about other people.

I am a PROUD Christian. And I know a boat load more about any religion, especially the Islamic religion, than you could ever know in 10 lifetimes. Now, read the quotes I provided and tell me whether or not you still feel the Islamic nation is peaceful.

Also, saying that they're not 'proper Muslims' if they don't follow the passages of violence is like saying you're not a proper Christian if you have sex before marriage. Not everyone follows every bit of their religion.

No that makes you a sinner to have sex before marriage. But luckily, Jesus fulfilled the law of God and I don't have to pay for my sins. However, their Qur'an, if you people would read it, tells you to not take ANYTHING out of context nor should ANY of it be not listened to.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

I wrote those down from the Qur'an I have next to my desk. Next lame argument.


I am a PROUD Christian. And I know a boat load more about any religion, especially the Islamic religion, than you could ever know in 10 lifetimes. Now, read the quotes I provided and tell me whether or not you still feel the Islamic nation is peaceful.

all knowing cali. if you know so much why is it you display such ignorance?

However, their Qur'an, if you people would read it, tells you to not take ANYTHING out of context nor should ANY of it be not listened to.

either this is the product of a very stupid arabic writer or the product of a very stupid american reader.

its very hard to get everyone to interpret literature in the same way.

 

[Toshiya]

So now it's a 'I know more than you so your opinion is invalid'?
... Sure, you may know more than Jim (and me) but even reading your quotes I don't believe that the Islamic religion is evil.
Why should I, since I'm reading quotes that fit your point. These are a handful of quotes from quite a thick book, it's not like the whole religion of Islam is dedicated to making its followers kill people.

 

[Daenerys]

I'm closing this thread, Stang's posted several mod warnings which have just been ignored. While I do appreciate that this is the debate section, the thread has totally derailed, and everyone's just taking potshots at everyone else now.

-Thread Closed-

 

[Ewan]

Figures. I accept my win.

Congrats on taking my post out of context. It was towards stang on something unrelated to the thread, explaining why I had to go off topic.

Also, you didn't even reply to my post so either be civil as stang instead of posting childish victory messages. Grow up yeah? I went out of my way to be as open as possible to your views, you could at least show me the same courtesy.

 

[blakstang98]

I've made 2 posts regarding staying on topic, and you all continued to derail it. I also made a post about not bashing one another about differences in opinion, which has started to happen as well. So this discussion is over. And also Cali, do NOT make another thread regarding this topic. Nobody likes to play in the sandbox nicely when this topic is brought up, so please don't post it again.

*Thread closed*