Heaven, False Sense of Humility?

[Shu]

So before you say anything, let me rattle a few things out about this here title.

What are my beliefs? I am agnostic. I don't know if there is something out there, but I believe in something for myself.. that has to have "started" it all. Whether you call that God or not.. that's up to you. I don't think it is a thinking entity with rational thoughts, I think it is just an entity. Something that has no name, face, it could be bacteria for all I know - but whatever it is, it exists in all living things.. like a spark.. off transformers.. that makes us different than unanimated things. Why can some organisms live without certain organs, or why a typical human has 23 pairs of chromosomes, well I do not care to know. I'll leave that up to the geneticists/anthropologists.

I want to stress that I do not want to offend, but if I do so explaining these things, then good, you should be. It should attack your foundation, and make you think.

So I believe that if a religion ever indoctrinates an afterlife philosophy/theology that it is a false religion. This includes, the Hindu rebirth/reincarnation.

So let's get into why I think this. Let's just go into point one head strong. I grew up in a Presbyterian household, my family are pretty much all Christians. They believe that every thing is predetermined by this god fella. That Jesus came down as his image, and that if you were to believe wholeheartedly in his teachings/preachings and that he was the son of god.. that you will be accepted into Heaven.

[Without sounding ignorant, due to I haven't studied to Qur'an enough or Torah, I'll stick to just Christianity for now.]

I have a few baptists friends as well. They go out drinking, get laid occasionally, some are in the closet gay, which in all technicality are each sins. Though by praying and going to church on Saturday nights/ Sunday mornings they will go to Heaven.

Jeffery Dahmer, sick bastard who mutilated small animals as a kiddo. Then turned his inwardly gay self to picking up males from the ages of late teens to around early thirties.. and molesting them, then performing zombie experiments on their body parts. Arrested on 17 counts of murder, and then while in jail.. he became a christian. So he's went to Heaven. (killed by inmate)

Alright.. I know that was an unfair jab to throw that last one in there, but I just want to point out, by all rights, he is going to heaven. That in the Bible God judges all sins as equal to one another. So either you say a profanity, or kill 17 folks.. it's the same.

So back to the main point. Heaven/Afterlife.. Why live a life wasting time on something that basically only occurs when you die, when you could be living your days to the fullest helping out your fellow man and yourself?

What do I mean? Heaven is a scapegoat. It's a reason to do things for some. Why? Why not just do it from the bottom of your heart instead of hoping to get a leg in the door to Heaven? Living a life as a monk/priest is a life time of devotion, to either meditation or worshiping to the divine.

Shouldn't the Catholic church by all rights be completely dissected for the amount of homosexual pedophilia that has taken place?

Humility should not be due to a reward, it should be done if you choose to love your fellow man. If everyone respected one another, without a religion to indoctrinate afterlife, I would hope that the world would be a heck of a lot better. Even thugs worship their god, due to even if they do what they do.. it will all be okay one day, due to the giving thanks that they do on the side.. and going to heaven.

Heaven should never be a reason or an excuse to do good. It should be from you.. It's a false sense of handing off liability. It in turn indoctrinates that you can get away with crap, due to you can one day go somewhere else and be perfect. Come on.. really?

So if you care to counter this argument, please do so. I am interested, and will not disrespect you.

 

[Stoic Hero]

God does not save the people that do not truly believe. If Jeffery Dahmer truly believed and committed himself to never being a cruel, evil person again, who are you to say he can't be forgiven? That's up to God, regardless.

Anyway, a lot of people like to think of heaven as a safety net, or a reward, and both of those have some truth to them. But heaven is about so much more. Heaven isn't a reward. It isn't a "good job, son" from God. It's God sacrificing his only son so that we may even be considered. Without Christ's sacrifice, not a single one of us would go anywhere near heaven. As Christ said in the Bible (I'm paraphrasing, fyi), you shouldn't expect a reward for doing what you're supposed to do. And being good, helping others, giving money, time, food, etc are all things you are supposed to do. You don't deserve a reward for them. If God would like to reward you, then he will.

Heaven is based on your relationship with God. I believe God doesn't want people who do good works. Anyone can do good works, for a reward or for a safety net or otherwise. I think God wants people who do good works because it's the right thing to do. Because you don't walk by your fellow man without helping. Those are the people that go to heaven. Am I one of them? Not yet. At least, not quite. I'm definitely seeing progress, and I think that's what being a Christian is truly about. Progression. Not perfection.

 

[AerithG]

^You pretty much hit the nail on the head, Stoic Hero.

Anyone can get into Heaven. Anybody. Think about it, Adolf Hitler could be in Heaven right now if he just asked to be repented by God for his sins, meant it, and confessed in his belief in Him. This is one of the reasons why I don't support the death penalty (and I'm Conservative, fyi). I don't feel anyone has the right to take another person's life, and doing so is robbing them from the potential to repent and have the chance of going to Heaven. Who am I to take that chance away? I'm not worthy of judging. Now, how can we really know Jeffrey went to Heaven? We can't, at least not during our time on Earth. He could have made some phony speech about being a Christian, yet not meant it. You never know. Like you said, putting your foot in the door. But, then again, he could have really become saved, and thus become right in the eyes of the Father.

I've always felt that many Christians try to do the right thing as you said, Stoic, as pretty much a safety net, or an insurance card. I think it's absolutely silly. Heaven is great and it's fine to want very much to go there (I mean, who doesn't?) but you should want to be there because you want to be there for your family and for God. Putting on a facade to try and squeeze your way into Paradise just isn't going to work, and an all knowing God knows that it's phony. It's not always about how much God loves you, but rather, how much you love God. God loves us very much, and gives us the chance to do good and to believe in Him. We have free will, so we're very much accountable for our sins, our actions, our choices. Nobody is perfect. Am I the perfect Christian? No. Do I sin? All the time. But you know what? God knows I'm not perfect, He knows I've sinned and will sin time and time again. That's why Jesus gave His life for my sins, so that when I sin I'm not branded as being tainted or a bad person, but rather that I've made an oopsy and that all is forgiven if I'm saved and realize that I've done wrong and I'm doing my best to prevent doing it again, and in short, being a better person.

 

[Tucker]

Well me being raised a Catholic, we believe in Purgatory, and confession.

If you are sorry for something, anything, you go to Confession. You will be forgiven.

Now, people like Jeffery Dahmer? The horrific crimes he committed? And then becoming Christian? (Which I actually did not know ) I definitely do not believe he went straight to Heaven, but I believe he went to Purgatory.

If you believe in Heaven, and Hell, both EXTREME places of everlasting perfection or everlasting despair, then what about a normal person who commits some sins but is a good person? Where would he go?

There are two parts to getting into Heaven, loving God and loving your neighbor. Backed up by a few Bible verses and stories (I am too lazy to go find them but I know they are there), by hurting your fellow man you are hurting God. So if you "love" God, yet hurt your neighbor, that is a contradiction, and you really aren't loving God.

Also, to love God, you must follow his teachings. Which tell you not to lie, steal, etc. (7 sins, 10 commandments...)

So do thugs and gangs truly love their God? No. Atleast not the God that lets you into Heaven.

Shouldn't the Catholic church by all rights be completely dissected for the amount of homosexual pedophilia that has taken place?

Can you blame a whole community for something a few people did? While there were many priests who did these things, there are a few things we need to consider. (I got to stop saying 'things'!)

How many pedophiles are out there? Specifically ones that have homoesexual relations? There are definitely more that are not priests than are priests, in a statistics view. If a priest is found having sexual relations with a boy, it is taken MUCH heavier than a regular old dude. Also, if you look at a ratio of priests who have done that and clean priests, there are definitely MANY more priests who are just normal priests.

Priests are celibate. People say men have carnal desires. Well, someone like a priest will have carnal desires. I am in no way saying that people can't get along without sex, that's ludicrous. But, they definitely will have desires more than other people might. Christians believe that priests are targeted by the devil because they are the ones converting people and leading them towards God. Weaker priests who have these desires and are constantly tempted to do something like this and are often around young boys, may succumb to it.

 

[Will Graham]

There is only one thing I want to focus on, namely people only being good to get into heaven.

People often say, "it's all well and good being moral for your religion, but us atheists are the ones being moral without expecting a reward". They normally go on to say that morality is clearly a human trait etc.

To be fair though, most believers are probably moral because they see it as the right thing to do, and not just 'scoring brownie points with the boss'. It'd be silly to assume that all religious people are moral solely for reward

 

[AerithG]

Starfruit

Thugs and gangs are not doing God's will, no, I can say that for sure. They're murdering, stealing, sometimes even raping other people. That's doing bad deeds. If you're saved, you won't do these bad crimes. Simple as that. However, like I said above, you can always be forgiven for your sins, truly mean it (God knows if you believe it and are trying to be a better person), and your believe in Him.

You would still go to Heaven, as long as you believe in God, are saved by his grace, and do your best to be as holy as you can be. Everyone sins, that's a given. God didn't say we had to be perfect, He said we have to try and to progress with our relationship with Him, as well as our relationships with others. People lie everyday, but do you think someone will just go to Hell for it if they're trying to be a better person and to not lie, acknowledges that they're doing wrong, is saved by the grace of God, and believes in Him? No, I don't think so. I can't really put words in the mouth of God, though. Nor do I think I do a good job at explaining what I've interpreted. My main concern while I'm on this Earth is to have a strong relationship with God, to always be a good person (and if there is an issue to pray about it instead of resulting to conflict), and to just let God do the rest. I can't be perfect, but if I'm truly saved then my faith in Him will decide how I act and the person that I am, and I just have to keep that in mind. That's my way of life.

 

[Tucker]

@Starfruit

Thugs and gangs are not doing God's will, no, I can say that for sure. They're murdering, stealing, sometimes even raping other people. That's doing bad deeds. If you're saved, you won't do these bad crimes. Simple as that. However, like I said above, you can always be forgiven for your sins, truly mean it (God knows if you believe it and are trying to be a better person), and your believe in Him.

I don't really disagree with your statement Andi, and I don't think it contradicts mine.

I wholeheartedly believe that you can be forgiven, no matter what you have done. Which is why I believe in confession.

However, I don't think it is as simple as saying you are sorry. Jeffery Dahmer, had committed so many horrific crimes. If he has a revelation and believes in God, good for him. However, it is all about penance, which does follow what Shu was saying.

Penance and repentance is a theme in so many shows, novels, and life. It is a thirst that we humans have. Feeling guilty is a horrible feeling, and you will feel guilty if you are truly sorry for your sins, you want to take them back, undo them. Which is why in confession you have a penance. Which is why if you have done wrong but are a good person you go to Purgatory before Heaven, to completely cleanse yourself before being with God.

People who have committed mortal sins like murder and are truly sorry for it, want to feel punishment for their crimes. (You and I both watch AHS, the burnt dude wants exactly this.) Susan also does this on Desperate Housewives. This was in a play I was in last year called BFF. They're guilty and sorry, and they need a punishment.

If you are fully sorry like you said, and you truly mean it, that can't be the end because it doesn't change that what you did was wrong. Now I don't want to push Catholicism, but this is why in Catholicism we believe that the only way we can be truly forgiven is through Confession, where we also receive a penance for our actions.

 

[Richard B Riddick]

I think I can put this into perspective, maybe...

1. Heaven isn't necessarily a coping mechanism. What the existence of heaven and hell implies is a persons actions carry consequences. Child molestors, rapists, murderers and others who may escape criminal prosecution don't get away with it. They're punished in an afterlife... It suggests there is some degree of accountability and retribution that exists beyond observable norms.

2. In terms of who goes to heaven and who doesn't there's a twist. Its well known that a person only has to beleive in God to go to heaven. On the surface it sounds easy. But, the fine print says: a person who truly believes... follows the teachings of their religion.

3. This may imply priests and child molestors don't believe in their deity enough to follow their religion's teachings. Despite them having an official capacity & station, they may well be non-believers who end up in hell as their not following religious teachings may show a lack of belief on their part.

4. Its like those who continually try to predict the end of the world. If they bothered to read their holy book, they might realize their own religion says its impossible.

5. Atheists who are moral and good people are following the teachings of a christian God. They're loving their neighbors, forgiving others & all those other things. Based on the concept that the true believers of God are those who follow the religions teachings, this would imply that atheists are true believers on some level & thus might go to heaven.

6. If so, it may be said what determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell has most to do with their actions and deeds and not so much to do with the name of the deity or God they profess to believe in.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

5. Atheists who are moral and good people are following the teachings of a christian God. They're loving their neighbors, forgiving others & all those other things. Based on the concept that the true believers of God are those who follow the religions teachings, this would imply that atheists are true believers on some level & thus might go to heaven.

thats a bit of a cop out, because atheists arent believers at all. they are (not all of course, but the majority) not killing, raping, stealing etc because they have they have an innate sense of right and wrong and not because god said its not ok to do these things.

if i can go to heaven just for refraining from murder, rape and theft then i think you (and every other religious person) are short changing yourself. if its enough to just be "good" then why bother with, what seems to me, a load of illogical pish?

 

[Donald Trump]

It depends upon which flavour of Christian you are.
Catholics believe that your actions influence what happens to you after you die, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Protestants don't believe that. Because God is omnipotent he already knows, and therefore it is already decided, whether you are going to Heaven when you die.

I think the whole idea of Heaven is insane, probably the maddest thing about Christianity. Apparently there's this place that no one has ever been to and because of that no one knows what it's like or what you need to do to get in, except die of course. This place is filled with shitloads of boring people, there's no alcohol, there's no music, there's no sex, there's no drugs, there's no Finaru Fantariji games there either. I struggle to see how anyone can believe in something as irrational as Heaven.
Where is Heaven? Do you go to sleep in Heaven? etc etc

 

[Will Graham]

5. Atheists who are moral and good people are following the teachings of a christian God. They're loving their neighbors, forgiving others & all those other things. Based on the concept that the true believers of God are those who follow the religions teachings, this would imply that atheists are true believers on some level & thus might go to heaven.

That makes absolutely no sense, claiming that because atheists have the same morals then they are following Christian morals. That's the same as saying, you use words, Christians use words, so you are using Christian words

 

[Stoic Hero]

The Pharisees of the Bible were the kind of people that did good works for a reward and a safety net. They thought themselves higher than others, claimed they loved God, and followed the letter of the law. Jesus spoke ill of the Pharisees every time he talked about them. They are wretched men.

The truly saved do good because it is the right thing to do, and they believe their goodness comes from God. Richard B Riddick atheists, by definition, do not believe in God. Therefore, they are doing good works for themselves or someone else and they do not believe that their goodness comes from God, so they cannot be saved. Like the Pharisees, they may do a lot of good works and be very powerful and loved in the community, but they don't love God and that will be to their detriment.

 

[Will Graham]

If all of the good in the world comes from God then does all of the evil come from him too? So the first two men are going to hell, not the third though?

 

[Marquis of Granby]

but they don't love God and that will be to their detriment.

just as they dont love the tooth fairy, and unicorns, and the bogeyman, and santa claus and everything else they have no reason to believe the existence of. you and your religion condemn me to hell, the next will be another place and the next another place still. so lets assume there is an afterlife and i'm condemned to the bad part of it for using my mind and thinking for myself - i get to travel and experience the eternal torture of allllllllllllllllllllllll the cultures that ever existed. you'll be stuck in heaven. such bliss

 

[Stoic Hero]

We can't say who is and isn't going to hell if they confess themselves as Christian. But if what that says is true, Pat Robertson may need to make some lifestyle changes. We never really know, though. Be careful about judging the situations of others, lest someone take a magnifying glass to yours.

Evil is a side effect of good. It's like spoiled goodness. Everything evil was good at one time, until it was perverted.

Where there is good, there is always someone who doesn't want to do it. God didn't create evil, evil just came about because of the free will we were given. God didn't want us to be mindless puppets that did his every whim. He prefers real creatures with real emotions and real love. By giving us a choice to do follow him or not, he allows us to truly matter.

We all have choices, and our choices remain.

just as they dont love the tooth fairy, and unicorns, and the bogeyman, and santa claus and everything else they have no reason to believe the existence of. you and your religion condemn me to hell, the next will be another place and the next another place still. so lets assume there is an afterlife and i'm condemned to the bad part of it for using my mind and thinking for myself - i get to travel and experience the eternal torture of allllllllllllllllllllllll the cultures that ever existed. you'll be stuck in heaven. such bliss

No one is condemning you to hell except yourself. You've been offered a choice. You can't get into heaven by doing good works. I can't stress this enough. It's not about good works. It never was. None of us would get in. You can't expect God to give you a pass just because you do some good. The whole point is loving God. If you reject his love, you've no one to blame but yourself. He's offered it to you. He's not being cruel by sending you to hell. Hell is a place without God, which is what you really want, right?

 

[Will Graham]

I am sure if they took a magnifying glass to mine and most average peoples' lives they would find some awful things. Taking a piss on someone's car when I am drunk is definitely comparable to exploiting slave labour in a diamond mine

So all good actions are because of God, but all the bad actions are our fault?

If God allowed us free will, why would he punish us for exercising disbelief in him due to lack of evidence? I will allow you to think for yourself, but you better believe these exact things or you'll burn in hell


If it is not about good works, only loving God, then he made us solely to worship him? Why put us on Earth at all then? If he only wants worship why give us free will?

 

[Marquis of Granby]

earth is a place without god. reality is a place without god. the enormous lack of evidence for the existence of any god from any culture - not just yours - should be enough in this day and age for people to wise up. you seem a bit confused because i dont believe in a god, or an afterlife. nor do i want either. as far as im concerned i will rot in peace.

also you mention good works, but a wee quote that one of our other peaceful christian members brought to my attention psalm 14:1. sounds to me like its saying anyone who doubts the existence of god is a fool and that they can do no good

 

[Squid]

No one is condemning you to hell except yourself. You've been offered a choice. You can't get into heaven by doing good works. I can't stress this enough. It's not about good works. It never was. None of us would get in. You can't expect God to give you a pass just because you do some good. The whole point is loving God. If you reject his love, you've no one to blame but yourself. He's offered it to you. He's not being cruel by sending you to hell. Hell is a place without God, which is what you really want, right?

You make God sound like a Nazi leader or something. Blindly follow me, do not doubt me and do not question me or you WILL go to hell.

If God turned out to be real it wouldn't matter if you'd done multiple good deeds while being an Atheist because you don't believe in him and follow him and that is enough to send you to hell. And it doesn't matter if you've been a terrible christian because you'll go to heaven just because you follow him. That's what it sounds like you're saying

I don't know about you but I can't figure out why someone would want to follow and love someone/something like that.

 

[Stoic Hero]

God is absolute goodness. There is no evil in him at all. The book of Job delves into this. Job was losing everything and his wife told him to "curse God and die." But Job responded "If we expect good from God, why should we not expect evil?" And later in the book, God spoke with Job. He let him know that, sometimes, evil things may happen to you that seem way beyond your control. But he has a plan, and those that believe will eventually be happy and righteous and everything secret will be revealed to them. God himself does not cause or send evil. That is Satan and his demons. People, too, do evil. But God is never evil. God does, however, test people, but He doesn't do anything out of spite. There's a lesson in everything, and through suffering we become stronger. There's a difference between temptation and tests. Satan does the former, God does the latter. The first is designed for you to fail, the latter is designed for you to succeed and grow strong.

It's not about punishment. He's not punishing you for disbelieving in him. He's just offered you a choice: Believe in him and join him in heaven, or go your own way. A lot of people choose the latter, which unfortunately leads to hell.

We were made to worship and glorify, yes, that is the main reason we are here. But life is a gift. We're here to enjoy it. To love others, to spend time doing things we love and working hard in the name of the Lord. He made this all for us, and for himself, too. We are made in his likeness; we're special. We're closer to God than any other creature on this earth. He wants us to be happy and come to him of our own accord.

 

[Marquis of Granby]

commanding a man to sacrifice his son. that isnt goodness. allowing your own son to be tortured to death. that isnt goodness.

so either god is not good, or our definitions of good differ...somewhat.