"Fixing" Final Fantasy

[_jayholden]

Hey everybody. Sorry for the clickbait title. I realize not everyone thinks the Final Fantasy series is broken. Humor me.

The majority of the folks I talk to, especially those who played the earlier entries in the series, believe the past few games have been a letdown. Whether it's a less-than-stellar battle system, flat characters, poor worldbuilding or other concerns, the last great Final Fantasy - they say - went on sale some time before the past decade.

Does this ring true with anyone here? If so, how would you bring the series back to its former greatness?


Thanks.

 

[Ivory Valor]

Hey everybody. Sorry for the clickbait title. I realize not everyone thinks the Final Fantasy series is broken. Humor me.

The majority of the folks I talk to, especially those who played the earlier entries in the series, believe the past few games have been a letdown. Whether it's a less-than-stellar battle system, flat characters, poor worldbuilding or other concerns, the last great Final Fantasy - they say - went on sale some time before the past decade.

Does this ring true with anyone here? If so, how would you bring the series back to its former greatness?


Thanks.

I thought this was in reference to the GameSpot article that shows up every so often...

Honestly, I've taken every difference happily and seen it through to the end. I loved 13, it was one of the most divisive games in the series ever, but I loved it. I've very quickly learned that different does not mean bad. Personally, I'd say it doesn't need to be fixed.

 

[_jayholden]

I've very quickly learned that different does not mean bad. Personally, I'd say it doesn't need to be fixed.

Different doesn't mean bad. Bad means bad.


Agree to disagree, thanks for your input.

 

[Linnaete]

how would you bring the series back to its former greatness?

First of all, they need to actually release Final Fantasy XV. It will be ten years since Versus XIII's announcement and people are crying for closure, even if the current FFXV seems to be a wildly different game than what the original ideas and concepts for the old Versus XIII might have been.

Afterwards, there needs to be a thorough appraisal and review of EVERYTHING that had gone wrong with FFXV's development and realise that something fundamental has to change in the management and culture of the company to avoid repeating such a travesty of a mistake ever again. They need to make a huge decision. Do they bother to carry on with the piece of crap Luminous Engine that has in all probability done just as much to stunt FFXV's development and trouble it than anything else? Or will they smell the coffee, look at Kingdom Hearts 3 and its (presumably) much smoother development and decide to permanently stick with Unreal Engine for future Final Fantasy games?

Something has to change and quickly. From FFXII onward, no mainline Final Fantasy game has been free of malignant management problems, or senior staff members bailing out, or insidious engine problems, or whatever you can name. FFXIII's development was stunted heavily by Crystal Tools problems. FFXIV 1.0 was rushed out the door, despite it being a horrific mess built using an engine that could barely even handle an MMO with large, open zones. FFXV...has just been legendary with how much of a headache it has been for everyone. It will soon be 10 years. 10 years since we have last had an ORIGINAL concept for an offline mainline Final Fantasy game. Think about that.

I have ranted about all that above, because I feel talking about how Final Fantasy can be "good" again is meaningless if the company just simply cannot get its act together and be prepared to even make and ship a game without taking a whole decade of our lives from us.

What would I do to make the series good again? Firstly, I would not be religiously listening to the fans. Strange proposal? Not really, when you consider the fact that the FF fanbase is so disjointed, so fragmented, and so divided, that you would get no coherent answer from them. Nothing you can do will placate and satisfy everyone, because that would just be at odds with reality. To have fans dictate the vision for your game would only lead to an unmitigated mess that would satisfy virtually no one. I'd devise a vision of my own (as a team, of course, because modern development these days probably would not allow one person to have control of every aspect of a project's vision anymore.) and stick with it. Better to be bold and come up with something risky and new, than something that is either an incoherent pile of poop, or something rigid, formulaic and stale. The franchise is about real change these days anyway, so that spirit may as well continue. Who knows, experiments may work. I like FFXII, while others like FFXIII. Both have been experiments.

Additionally, I would seek to diversify characters. I don't like FFXV's main characters, precisely because this looks like the least diverse, least interesting bunch of characters yet in the series. I would gladly take the risk with an older protagonist. I'm still bitter that focus testing led to FFXII having to abolish plans for Basch to be lead character in favour of...Vaan. I'd bring in more non-human characters to spice it up, because is this not supposed to be a fantasy world? As for the fantasy world itself, good world building is critical in an RPG for me. I solidly stick to that mantra of show-don't-tell. Rather than slews of Datalog entries that make for compulsory reading to gain any sufficient bearing of the world, I would only use such a thing as supplement. Much of the world building should be done through world interaction, be it through exploration, dialogue, or even carefully crafted sidequests that tell their own little stories. To infest your game world with endless fetch quests is not good world building either, if FFXIV wants to learn a lesson here.

One more thing...ATB is still worth using. Not everything needs to be an action RPG. There are many possible creative ways you can utilise the ATB system and all sorts of potential derivatives. I say this, not because I harbour intense sentimentality towards the old turn-based systems of yore, but because I feel it is worth trying, will likely win you some much needed appreciation from more old-school fans, and the current big budget market is kind of facing a dearth of these sort of games.

 

[Ivory Valor]

You know, oddly enough, I never thought the Datalog was required. I could tell from context clues what the terms meant... but I guess that's just me.

 

[SquallKefka17]

10 years since we have last had an ORIGINAL concept for an offline mainline Final Fantasy game. Think about that.

They strayed from XI online onwards and things started crashing from there. Started trying to make the games something they were not from
RPGs into Action RPGs and online RPGs they seem to misunderstand the term if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Firstly, I would not be religiously listening to the fans. Strange proposal? Not really, when you consider the fact that the FF fanbase is so disjointed, so fragmented, and so divided, that you would get no coherent answer from them. Nothing you can do will placate and satisfy everyone, because that would just be at odds with reality. To have fans dictate the vision for your game would only lead to an unmitigated mess that would satisfy virtually no one. I'd devise a vision of my own (as a team, of course, because modern development these days probably would not allow one person to have control of every aspect of a project's vision anymore.)

Yeah think of the love and hate both XII and XIII get in equal amounts.
I liked XIII and disliked XII,XIII-2 and XIII:LR but I guarantee you there are others with polar opposite views to me.
XV from what I've played of the demo feels like that mess it doesn't seem to know what kind of game it is in trying to please everyone.
For me it's too shallow to be deemed an RPG for other FF Fans especially the newer ones they would probably believe its the way to go.
I can see the VII remake suffering from this too.
I think Sakaguchi's influence has withered with each FF and it shows as they don't have as clear a vision these days as they used to.
Read this article where he moreorless says if he was still there X-2,XIII-2,LR, all the VII spinoffs would not exist.
http://ie.ign.com/articles/2015/03/04/final-fantasy-creator-hates-sequels
Correct me if I'm wrong but FFX was the last FF he was heavily involved in wasn't it? (and if I am it proves my point further as the last great FF for me)

One more thing...ATB is still worth using. Not everything needs to be an action RPG. There are many possible creative ways you can utilise the ATB system and all sorts of potential derivatives. I say this, not because I harbour intense sentimentality towards the old turn-based systems of yore, but because I feel it is worth trying, will likely win you some much needed appreciation from more old-school fans, and the current big budget market is kind of facing a dearth of these sort of games.

Yeah FF X-2 ATB system they were making strides and then slipped back jumping to action RPGs that battle system was not slow.
I disagree completely with Nomura's complaint these days that ATB would be a waste of graphic power if anyhting it could taken advantage of to create better character models and even snazzier magic effects and summons.
The battle systems have gotten more and more linear in an effort to use the graphics.
Look at the XV demo how few options there were how little there was to configure in the menu to customise your party.
Getting rid of the world maps after IX was the single worst decision ever also for me again I assume this was to make better use of the graphics.
The games have felt too linear and streamlined since then they should have kept the world map and you could use to enter calmlands style maps (ala FFX) to enter the full 3D areas again why break what wasn't broken. They have got to stop dumming FF down for newer gamers and make it more cerebral again. I'm replaying through IX on PSP at the moment and LR or XV demo doesn't hold a candle to it in terms of gameplay or in game atmosphere. The graphics may not be as pretty but there is so much more to do and it feels like a proper Fantasy world in which there are parts still to explore.

 

[_jayholden]

Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it. I was looking for a forum where I could discuss FFs, looks like I came to the right place.

So from what I'm hearing there are 3 pillars to our FF concerns (if we limit the scope of our discussion to just the games, not the company):

1) Building interesting worlds in an engaging way.
2) A return to a combat system that's more about thinking and less about reactions - it has both tactical (immediate) choices and strategic (long-term) choices in and out of combat.
3) A diverse cast of characters, each with their own interesting story arc.


Does that sound about right? Am I missing any of the big problems if I limit myself to those 3 things?

 

[Shu]

A lot of what .Fleur said, but some of my own personal banter now. This will be point driven with little to no explanation, but I can definitely expand where necessary.

1) Hire a damn story teller that has an imagination and doesn't use preconceived Final Fantasy Stories as a baseline. Final Fantasy has long since shed it's ways from being about the Crystal Warriors of FF I.
2) Use Adult themes. Yes I said it, use societal breaks/ end of days / band together or else. Use actual real world situations that make the reader/gamer be hooked to each character.
3) Kill off characters more. Don't be afraid to end characters, and I don't mean Aerith style. I mean put a hook in there that makes the gamer's heart burst.
4) Create an ending that is the least expected. Evil wins.
5) Show a little more into the character design when fighting. If someone gets shot / sliced, show them hurt! Not .. oh I took a big Buster sword to the face, and I'm A - Okay.

The only thing that made me want to play more as a kid was not just the Fantasy portions of the game. It was the "finality" in it all. The real fear that without these characters end of days were coming. The realness is what establish a bond between the gamer and the game itself.

 

[Sunowo]

Hey everybody. Sorry for the clickbait title. I realize not everyone thinks the Final Fantasy series is broken. Humor me.

The majority of the folks I talk to, especially those who played the earlier entries in the series, believe the past few games have been a letdown. Whether it's a less-than-stellar battle system, flat characters, poor worldbuilding or other concerns, the last great Final Fantasy - they say - went on sale some time before the past decade.

Does this ring true with anyone here? If so, how would you bring the series back to its former greatness?


Thanks.

You see, the problem with this logic is that this people would be ok with having 15 final fantasies being exact copies of each other just with different characters and slightly different stories. Whenever a company tries to make a fresh new title that mantains the flavour of the saga but seeks to be original on its own way, it gets a gigantic amount of bashing from old gamers that think 8-bit era was the true gaming era for whatever self-complacent reasons they can find.

I like final fantasy XIII for being an original title and not a carbon copy of final fantasy IV with better graphics like any other final fantasy is. I will probably love FFXV because it also seems like a whole different game. Gameplay and mechanics must always change with new titles.

 

[_jayholden]

You see, the problem with this logic is that this people would be ok with having 15 final fantasies being exact copies of each other just with different characters and slightly different stories. Whenever a company tries to make a fresh new title that mantains the flavour of the saga but seeks to be original on its own way, it gets a gigantic amount of bashing from old gamers that think 8-bit era was the true gaming era for whatever self-complacent reasons they can find.

I like final fantasy XIII for being an original title and not a carbon copy of final fantasy IV with better graphics like any other final fantasy is. I will probably love FFXV because it also seems like a whole different game. Gameplay and mechanics must always change with new titles.

Almost every Final Fantasy is significantly different from the others. Not all Final Fantasies are bad. A lot of people didn't like Final Fantasy XIII, which had nothing to do with it being different.

Nobody likes something because it's different.

Gameplay and mechanics don't have to change with new titles. Halo 5 musn't be a strategy RP. That would be silly.

 

[SquallKefka17]

You see, the problem with this logic is that this people would be ok with having 15 final fantasies being exact copies of each other just with different characters and slightly different stories. Whenever a company tries to make a fresh new title that mantains the flavour of the saga but seeks to be original on its own way, it gets a gigantic amount of bashing from old gamers that think 8-bit era was the true gaming era for whatever self-complacent reasons they can find. I like final fantasy XIII for being an original title and not a carbon copy of final fantasy IV with better graphics like any other final fantasy is. I will probably love FFXV because it also seems like a whole different game. Gameplay and mechanics must always change with new titles.

Except a title should never lose it's identity and forget what got it invited to the dance in the first place. Also it should evolve gradually not morph into something completely different to appease new gamers who want brain dead gameplay. My bone of contention has always been how it went from been a strategic party battling game to an arcadey hack and slash where you control the leader and dilute the rest with a few preset AI commands. How can you call the older FF fans self complacent for wanting the game to stay true to itself and be it about selecting right commands with right set of equipment at right time in a battle as opposed to square physical attack, circle magic attack, x block rinse ,repeat gameplay. Imagine if GTA 6 became completely about stealth and less about do what you want would the GTA 1,2,3,4 and 5 fans be self complacent as you call it too in that instance for been upset and GTA 6 deserve credit for tryin to be different from other GTAs despite trying to be both GTA and Metal Gear Solid at the same time? Because thats what Final Fantasy tries to do these days. I liked the original Final Fantasies for being more original titles than the newer ones cos they weren't trying to be every other game out there like the newer ones are. In the end I feel they should have had a spin off series for fans who wanted it to be action game and keep the main series proper RPGs instead of creating a divide with what they have done to the main series.

 

[AngelRachelle]

1) Hire a damn story teller that has an imagination and doesn't use preconceived Final Fantasy Stories as a baseline. Final Fantasy has long since shed it's ways from being about the Crystal Warriors of FF I.
2) Use Adult themes. Yes I said it, use societal breaks/ end of days / band together or else. Use actual real world situations that make the reader/gamer be hooked to each character.
3) Kill off characters more. Don't be afraid to end characters, and I don't mean Aerith style. I mean put a hook in there that makes the gamer's heart burst.
4) Create an ending that is the least expected. Evil wins.
5) Show a little more into the character design when fighting. If someone gets shot / sliced, show them hurt! Not .. oh I took a big Buster sword to the face, and I'm A - Okay.

I second this x1000. I remember being a kid and dying to be home so I could find out what happened with the story on FF7, FF8, and even FFX. I lacked that urgency with some of the newer titles, although I still enjoyed playing them. Of course some of that could be contributed to the fact that I was a kid at the time I began playing these games and my "childlike wonder" is gone... Who knows.

 

[Guernsey]

Except a title should never lose it's identity and forget what got it invited to the dance in the first place. Also it should evolve gradually not morph into something completely different to appease new gamers who want brain dead gameplay. My bone of contention has always been how it went from been a strategic party battling game to an arcadey hack and slash where you control the leader and dilute the rest with a few preset AI commands. How can you call the older FF fans self complacent for wanting the game to stay true to itself and be it about selecting right commands with right set of equipment at right time in a battle as opposed to square physical attack, circle magic attack, x block rinse ,repeat gameplay. Imagine if GTA 6 became completely about stealth and less about do what you want would the GTA 1,2,3,4 and 5 fans be self complacent as you call it too in that instance for been upset and GTA 6 deserve credit for tryin to be different from other GTAs despite trying to be both GTA and Metal Gear Solid at the same time? Because thats what Final Fantasy tries to do these days. I liked the original Final Fantasies for being more original titles than the newer ones cos they weren't trying to be every other game out there like the newer ones are. In the end I feel they should have had a spin off series for fans who wanted it to be action game and keep the main series proper RPGs instead of creating a divide with what they have done to the main series.

I see your point but also remember that Final Fantasy is all about trying new things while keeping the core formula. I also see your point about keeping the series identity as it seems that the series is trying to be an action RPG as opposed to be being a series of turn based RPGs that take place in huge world.