Different Expectations for Men and Women?

[Daenerys]

This is something we've been studying in English Language, in the Language and Gender section of the course, and I think it's really interesting and could create a pretty interesting debate.

Look at the words used to describe a woman who has a lot of sexual partners - Whore, Bitch, Slut, Slapper. All derogative.

And now look at the words used, by women, to describe sex - making love, being intimate - all euphemistic terms.

And now look at the words to describe a man who has a lot of sexual partners - Hunk, Stud, Macho. All positive.

And now look at the words used, by men, to describe sex - shagging, getting laid, getting your leg over - all dysphemisms.

Do you think this is because there are different expectations from men and women? Is it considered socially acceptable for Men to have lots of sex and sexual partners - hence the positive terms to describe those kinds of men, and socially unacceptable for women to have lots of sex and sexual partners, hence the derogative terms for them.

We've tried debating about this in English Language, and it is rather interesting, but with only 5 boys in the class, with 17 girls, it's rather one-sided. These aren't my *personal* views either, just the generalizations we've been taught.

 

[Aztec Triogal]

I find it a little humorous that you created this thread but its a very interesting subject so bravo for making it.

Yes, I do think there are a lot of gender double standards in society. Neither side really seems to benefit over the other, they're just different.

Women are judged for being promiscuous and/or getting pregnant pre-maritally where it always takes two to tango, so to speak. They earn lower wages than men and are generally believed to be less capable then men in logical matters. Clearly Angelus is the exception that disproves that rule. >.> But anyhow, women are still very much perceived as weak and needy when it really is not the case anymore.

Men, on the other hand, always seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to meeting female expectations. Nothing a man ever does is correct and women simply explain away any poor life choices by justifying that they're female, as if it was some sort of condition. Men also cannot be openly sensitive or understanding without being called gay or having their masculinity called into question. There is a particular irony in that statement because I tend to do that quite a bit.

There are double standards. I'm not really sure they're correct or justifiable... but I'm not really sure it's the worst thing in the world. Even though stereotypes and social "pigeon-holing" are obviously rude and typically incorrect overall... they are usually based on history. To give an example, a man and a woman may be just as effective in battle... but history shows that isn't the case. Does it mean it's necessarily right for the present or future? No. But history doesn't lie either...

 

[looneymoon]

Look at the words used to describe a woman who has a lot of sexual partners - Whore, Bitch, Slut, Slapper. All derogative.

I dunno about anyone else, but I totally apply these words to men as well. It's much more effective than coming up with a whole new gender-specific term

Eg. "Cloud is such a slut, why does he keep playing two girls at once? What a whore."
"Tidus is such a whiny bitch, all he does is complain."

...Of course, what I use doesn't defy traditional use, but but from my experience, it seems as if denotative meanings are starting to apply to both genders. Context still brings on a different connotation though (ie. calling a guy a bitch is still very different from calling a girl a bitch).

Do you think this is because there are different expectations from men and women? Is it considered socially acceptable for Men to have lots of sex and sexual partners - hence the positive terms to describe those kinds of men, and socially unacceptable for women to have lots of sex and sexual partners, hence the derogative terms for them.

I'd think so, yes. Stereotyping is something that will never cease to exist. I think, in particular, this stereotype stems from something much more broad. Because men are thought of as less feeling, there's the notion that it's done for pure pleasure, without bringing in the emotional side of things.

Females, stereotypically the more "emotional" gender, having lots of sex are viewed as "easy." Generalizations would assume that females having lots of sex = females "giving themselves up" so to speak. In a sense, you could say that by having lots of sex cheapens the "emotional (female)" experience of previous partners. This may lead to conception of heartlessness or emotional manipulation. With men, there's less of this kind of expectation because there's is the gender typically thought of as less feeling anyways. They are excused because it is a natural product of their gender to be that way.

Of course, that is not how it actually is, but I hope all of that made sense

There are double standards. I'm not really sure they're correct or justifiable... but I'm not really sure it's the worst thing in the world. Even though stereotypes and social "pigeon-holing" are obviously rude and typically incorrect overall... they are usually based on history. To give an example, a man and a woman may be just as effective in battle... but history shows that isn't the case. Does it mean it's necessarily right for the present or future? No. But history doesn't lie either...

I agree that double standards don't really bother me too much either (unless they are particularly hurtful or targetted).
I'd just like to point out that it maybe part of our heredity as well. For example, in Ancient Greek societies it was natural for men to have a wife, a mistress, and as many prostitutes as he pleased. Wives who kept a good house were prized, while mistresses/prositutes were more like sexual slaves more than anything (even though they were the most free women in Greece). This was socially natural at the time. Such things pass on through genetics, and thus may stay prominent in modern mindsets. This is a auggested explanation as to why many living in safe areas still fear the dark - it's genetic. Just thought I'd add that for consideration, even though I don't really want to start a nature vs nurture debate

 

[Dionysos]

[FONT=&quot]It partly goes back to nature really, and the way things have been viewed through the ages. Biologically, a single man can impregnate many women, but a woman can only be pregnant once at a time. Hence there is more of a limit on how often a woman can properly reproduce. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Also men in the past have been very controlling on women in this way, so as to assure the child they are bringing up is actually theirs... It's obvious to the woman that she is the mother, but to the man it was called into question whether he was the father if he couldn't control his wife. For example during the Roman Empire (but also across most ages and cultures), people liked to know they were the father. It gave them pride, and honour to the family, to know they controlled their household and kept the blood of the family flowing. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That's partly why it had always been seen as more important for the woman to be controlled, and why these phrases are still with us now, in part. What a man does is left behind elsewhere, done. But it stays with the woman and potentially develops into new life. But I don't want to get messy here... but theres something about that that may make people feel differently about a woman doing this than a man. The man isn't violated (for lack of a better word), so to speak... [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Not that I agree with this… It’s just how its been viewed as. Personally I don’t like it when men sleep around and boast etc… I think they’re a bit too full of themselves … but that might just be because I’m a loser, lacking their confidence and ego's, and missing out on all the action. [/FONT]

 

[Donald Trump]

This is something we've been studying in English Language, in the Language and Gender section of the course, and I think it's really interesting and could create a pretty interesting debate.

We discussed something along the same lines in literature.
The Oedipal role women play in society. Men rely on women for both sex and for being a mother. The fact that men rely on women for two of their main needs, sex, and nurturing, can lead to resentment.

I think Argor raises a good point, although pregnancy after sex isn't a sure thing, so having sex with more than one person could potentially be more likely to result in pregnancy.

But the whole thing is probably a result of men always having more power in society. In Western society women have always been thought less of, Eve taking the apple etc, and this has lead to more derogatory terms for women. Women and the amount of sexual partners they have is probably one of the many areas of society where there is an obvious bias against women.
So I'd say it's more a reflection of society than the issue of sex itself.

 

[AngofWolf]

It is a double standard, but it has been aorund for so long that trying to think any other way, at least for me, is hard. Even if I know its a double standard.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not going to say I think it is right, but at the same time I am not saying that its wrong either. Why? Well in a 'everyone should be equal' way the same implications should be used toward both men and women. However in a 'preservation of the species' way, one man humping four women makes sense, but one woman humping four men doesnt. Because a woman havign sex with four men in one day still only produces one child, where as a man having sex with four women can produce four children. Though in todays world that doesn't matter much since our knowledge alone has abolished the need for trying to perserve our race, at least when facing problems on earth. Maybe once we start freely traveling the universe this can once again apply.

 

[Shu]

Without reading the responses, and this might have been already said but I'll go with it anyway. I find it hilarious you bring this up..

Personal thoughts - Well to me women have always been property to men (not in my eyes, don't be offended) but I'm serious. Either they can be looked at as trophies or they can be looked at as caretakers of children. They have always been discriminated against as far as religions go. Think of the "Adam" and "Eve" - they were the ones who tempted Adam in the first place. Look at Muslims in the East, do you see much freedom with these women? I honestly feel bad.. but what can you do to change it?

From a guys standpoint a girl who is a whore or slut.. means she's loose. Do guys ever have side affects of having to much sex? The only I can think of is impotence. Whore or slut from a woman standpoint from what I hear actually has to do with the way they dress. Why do women dress up to look like whores or sluts in the first place anyway? Are they looking to be a tease or do they actually think that wearing clothes that barely fit and are revealing to the core actually is comfortable? Take for instance Halloween - from a guys standpoint this is an awesome Holliday, but from a woman standpoint it's national whore day.

Oversexed men are definitely viewed differently, but I have still heard them being called whores or sluts, but it almost is more playful. As a woman I can't see how you would want to be with a man in the first place who has had more than 10 partners unless you just want a "good time." If you suck at fulfilling the male fantasy.. well they move on now, don't they?

Prostitution isn't illegal so the next best thing would be what is occuring in today's society. If a woman gets taken out for a nice meal and has some wine.. we call this the wine and dine. 90% of the time the man is getting sex out of the deal. Can't explain it, but all I can say is I have yet to disprove it. Also if a man buys something nice.. let's say jewelry.. I guarantee the man isn't going to leave empty handed. It's an inverse way of prostitution.. but it's still alive.

It can work the same way with women trying to forward their life goals.. if a man is sucessful.. well he's most likely going to be sucessful with the ladies. Women like security and liked to be possessed every now and again.

Maybe it all goes back to the Egyptian Goddesses and such.. I dunno. Women are put on a pedastal, and men are to in some sense. If a woman is oversexed we call her a slut, if a man is oversexed.. well he's just getting lucky right?

... also to conclude, this is not how I think, i just think it's funny how as a society we view things.

 

[Aztec Triogal]

I agree with Chishu, women are property.

LOL Sorry, thought that was funny... no, but I get what you mean. Women still carry that stigma of being "owned" by men. It's interesting though how women have cooped over the years... where they actually seem to embrace certain parts of that culture in order to exploit it. I'm not necessarily talking about strippers who claim to be exploiting men by shoving their honk honk's in men's faces... but there are certainly a lot of example. I was talking to Riku earlier about it, actually.

I was telling him that a good way to break the ice with that girl he likes is to watch a movie, have his arm around the girl, and tell her when she's ready to do a little to give him a little kiss on the cheek. It's a very non-chalant way to progress the relationship. But I was saying that, for some reason, most women seem to be perfectly fine with the idea that there are guys out there who want to snuggle and not have it turn sexual. I don't know how they believe that. But, I think it's an easy "bullshit" thing for them to believe... because the alternative is them being "whorish".

It's like when women cocktease. They flirt and act somewhat ludely and then claim they never had any intent to "make some bad decisions". 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2... but it allows them to have fun and then simply turn around and claim they never had any intentions. Obviously that's not the case... but if they did act on their fliratious behavior, they'd be labeled as whores. So I think you see a lot of women flirt and not act on it because they're worry about what it'd mean if they did act... not that the flirtatious behavior never happened. It's just that somehow, in a woman's crazy mind, they can justify all that as logical.

 

[Shu]

Here's the true thing that is funny. I'm not saying all women are like this either, and no I'm no man whore.. pretty dedicated to my relationships, but I have been with an occasionaly... should I say silver spoon girl.

Some people call them gold diggers, but I don't allow myself to be with one long enough to know.. so I call them silver spoon girl. You have a girl who is given everything by her daddy (calling it like that for a reason) growing up - from a BMW to vacations to the virgin Isles to a nice house while going to college. Every Thursday and Friday nights they go out to eat and then head to the bars with their girlfriends. They end up with a different guy depending how many drinks he buys her. If they result in a relationship they turn to you as they did their daddy... you are the supplier, you are the successful one, and they don't wanna lift a finger to work. So this means you buy their every want and every need... kind of like a prostitute. So if you run out of the cash... well things go awry, and let's just say the sex gets worse after the first 2 weeks... when things go awry they rinse and repeat.. back to the bars to find another winner.

This is what I mean by "owned." If they are not owned, they would be making no money for themselves.. guys can be just the same way.

Guy can live off their parents, then when they meet a rich girlfriend who has parents that are endowed, well they get offered a job working under "Daddy." So they get rich.. and live happy until the sex goes bad... either way you put it..

But Girls are still the ones negatively looked at in these situations while guys... it's the more expected thing to happen.. so no biggy.

 

[Davey Gaga]

I know exactly what you mean, Mark. For our Yearbook Polls, we were asked to vote for the "Biggest Player" for both male and females and, for the female option, we all agreed that "Biggest Player" essentially asked "Who's the biggest slut?" whereas no such thing was suggested for the males.

It's not an ideal situation but it goes the other way when you expect males to deal with more labour-intensive work and that females are much less frail to do so and such like. It's something in life that we're not likely to escape.

On the other hand, I quite like the thought of having a pre-ordained role to play. I don't like to think that I'm restricted in my life but I have no quarrel with being expected to do different things to a woman and vice versa. Not everything is equal but each sex is balanced out in other terms.

 

[One-winged Demon]

A nice woman can have many men.The only thing she must do is to say them that she wants to have a relationship with them and if they like her the will say yes.That is not very bad except if she doesn't love them and play with their feelings(That is what usually happens.)On the other hand,a man can't have many women.It's very difficult to manage this so people show respect at him.The good at this kind of man is that except that he is cheating them he never does something bad at them.