Compilation of FFVII vs. Kingdom Hearts

[King Sean]

You're still not answering the question. Damn it, try to stay on track, here:

How is Cloud's personality derailed, as was originally stated?

It really isn't, in my opinion. He was stated to be they way he was in Crisis Core in FFVII. They said that he was an aspiring kid that wanted to be in SOLDIER. But he was kind of timid and mentally weak. That's why he didn't get in and was later made a regular Shin-ra grunt. CC doesn't interfere with the image of Cloud that FFVII provides us with at all. I guess Ether is just trying to say that there was no real reason to show that AGAIN in Crisis Core and that the many FFVII spin-offs are just being used to cash in money on the heavily milked game that is FFVII.

I hope this sounds in no way offensive.

 

[Æon Flux]

You're still not answering the question. Damn it, try to stay on track, here:

How is Cloud's personality derailed, as was originally stated?

I did I did ! I said it wasnt=p But the story realy wasnt about him in the first place...You cant realy derail a charecter when they only appear now and then im sure if they tried they could but even then just because someones anti social dosent mean they havent had weird/ordinary/otherwordly expieriences so there will always be some form of way of adding something in

 

[Ilyena]

You're still not answering the question. Damn it, try to stay on track, here:

How is Cloud's personality derailed, as was originally stated?

Try and keep the attitude down please. Rudeness isn't necessary. Thanks.

 

[ffking]

story wise imma half to go with FF7 but overall with gameplay id say KH. DoC gameplay jus didnt cut it for me.

 

[The Witch]

How was Cloud's story & character fucked up in CC? It was entirely faithful to what they said he was.

Five words; "I'm a Country Boy."


Also, it just dawned on me, another reason why KH series is better is because of SE and Disney hasn't turned it into a Cash-cow. It's just a great game.

Anytime I think of VII, I'm force to think about the embarassing spin offs. With KH I can just have the awesome game with the same un-retconed storyline as always. And that makes meh very happeh.

 

[Alak]

Kingdom Hearts is totally a cash cow.

Kingdom Hearts (PS2)
Chain of Memories (GBA)
Kingdom Hearts II (PS2)
Kingdom Hearts Coded (Mobile Phone)
358/2 Days (DS)
Birth By Sleep (PSP)

To to mention that they're coming out with a VCAST game, another mobile game, and KH3. They even have a trading card game from what I hear.

However, all of these events flow well with one another and there's really no contradictions. That's why the KH series beats out the Compilation of FFVII. I still like FFVII better than KH, though.

 

[Fusionist]

@Alak: I dunno, I really don't see KH as a cash cow variety. Except for the game series expanding beyond one platform as you listed, each game does connect and is necessary to play to understand the whole story.

Although I didn't know there was another mobile game, or this VCAST thing, or even this trading card game

I think a lot of the connections to future games has to do with the secret endings, and just the regular ending scenes as well.

KH1 could've ended happily ever after if Sora just went back with Kairi to the islands, but instead he goes to find Riku while helping Donald and Goofy find the King. I remembering thinking "wait, what?" when we see Sora and co run off into the distance at the end of the game, not to mention the secret ending totally blew my mind. So I was really happy to see that there were other games planned, because that's one inconclusive ending otherwise xD

 

[Alak]

Well there definition of cash cow is completely subjective so I understand if someone says "yes" or "no" regarding that. If someone calls FFVII a cash cow for having multiple installments, then KH falls under the same category since it does the same. I thought Chain of Memories and Birth by Sleep were completely unnecessary to an already awesome story, but at the same time they were really cool. Same can be said with Dirge of Cerberus and Crisis Core (only if you like them lol). People refrain from using the term "cash cow" when the spin-off is a success, but they throw it around when it sucks.

Which brings me back to the original topic! KH managed to avoid the mistakes that the Compilation of VII did: it avoided retcons and contradictions (story-wise and character portrayal). That's why people don't bash on Chain of Memories, Birth by Sleep, and the other titles...calling them the byproducts of Square-Enix's greed and whatnot.

 

[Channizard]

Okay guys, let's just settle this, jello wrestling style.

Cash cow: If anything, they both are. KH was way more installments INCLUDING the unmentioned Ported PS2 version of CoM. If anybody is the cow here, thy name is KH.

Retcon: I think the reason the whole thing behind VII was badly retconned was because they started building on the Compilation nearly 10 years later after the original game was done. Original staff had put that game aside because they were done with it, they locked up it's info in a safe, along with VIII and IX.

Then again, who knows? Is it the exact same staff to the person who did every project of the Comp as was on the original game? I know Nomura and Kitase headed a lot of it, but with new staff who weren't there for the original, there is bound to be some leeway on stuff.

Not to mention the title that had the worst retconning, was Last Order, which wasn't a game or anything done by SE, just a little anime short by Mad House, who were given some info on the events and went with it. They probably didn't know who each person was, or how each event went down to the T, because as far as I read from interviews, they saw what SE were doing and wanted to be a part of it.

The reason why KH retconning is so much better, is because since the game has come out, the staff have been with it, interlacing each new story line and character entrance so that one wouldn't fux up the next. All within the space of a few years, and they're still doing it.

That's the reason why I think people don't forgive VII's retconning. Because it was put down for several years before being picked up again.

In the end, I voted for VII. It's been my favourite game to date, and sure each new comp title isn't as interesting or has random retcons that just don't make sense, but there are new characters that are charming, and meeting old ones in the past is just as fun. It's given us multiple outlooks on the story that is VII, and I think that if they had gone with it without any time lapses, it would have been better and the opinion of people would have been different.

 

[Davey Gaga]

Well there definition of cash cow is completely subjective so I understand if someone says "yes" or "no" regarding that. If someone calls FFVII a cash cow for having multiple installments, then KH falls under the same category since it does the same. I thought Chain of Memories and Birth by Sleep were completely unnecessary to an already awesome story, but at the same time they were really cool.

But, as we've said, KH's multiple instalments are conveyed in a different way, as though there's always been a grand master plan that we're building towards. When the Xehanort saga ends, I'll accept that we're heading for raping territory, but right now everything's connected in a weird and wonderful way.

Chain of Memories introduced the whole concept of Nobodies (the idea of having no feelings was rife, so clearly KH2 was already in the works at this point) and confirmed theories about Sora('s Heartless) being special (hence Naminé and Roxas's existence). Riku and the darkness had its completely own sub-story - totally necessary for KH2's events.

Birth by Sleep, though I don't know much about it, is basically drawing a line under the entire Xehanort mystery and I, for one, can't wait for KH's ancestry to be shown to us.

...FFVII on the other hand explained everything. Everything. And then came AC - completely independent story with no storyline picking up from there. DoC - completely exagerated Lucrecia's involvement. All it did was scream SHE'S SEPHY'S MUM several times. CC just went through Zack's story, which we managed to see completely during VII but just added in some extra missions and new unnecessary characters for some flavour. BC? The henchmen of some of the villains don't need their own random story, adding in new random Turks as well!

Love VII but the series has different standards from KH.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Try and keep the attitude down please. Rudeness isn't necessary. Thanks.

Actually, sometimes it IS necessary to be a bit more forceful with your vocabulary in order to make a point, in this case that the answers were kind of rambling & needed focus before I could assess them. I feel I didn't cross the line into actually flaming anyone, & I hope that nobody was offended by what I said.

I just want it to be understood that I was speaking out of rhetoric, not frustration.

Anyway, with that, if "character derailment" was the wrong term to use, there's really not much I can comment on there. As for Cloud's declaration that he's a "country boy," I really don't see what the problem is. He...was. In fact, everyone was leaving the tiny, who-gives-a-shit dust bowl that was Nibelheim for the big city.

And as far as cash-cows go, that's such an overused term. Everything is a cash-cow. Final Fantasy is a cash cow. The works of Shakespeare were cash cows. When a cash cow should stop getting respect is when it's no longer any good, & frankly, I just don't see how VII has reached that point, especially when people eat up Ivalice Alliance.

 

[Saints&Storms]

FFVII, is way to rehashed. Kingdom Hearts no contest I mean Sora is a much more likeable main dude I think, KH has more original characters, more fun mini games, more mini-games, more characters, a better battle system, no drama like FFVII (Why does everybody die?).

KH is simply better.

 

[Channizard]

TBF though, only about a fourth of KH's character's are 'original'... and about a third of those, are clones of the main character.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

In the interest of providing a counterpoint:

I mean Sora is a much more likeable main dude I think

Hmm...I could go with that. But in a way, he's also more boring. It's kind of a Mary Sue thing when nothing ever gets a character down for very long.

KH has more original characters

Actually, this is easily disputed. Removing all of the Disney & Final Fantasy characters which, obviously, are not original, who do we have? Not including BBS; Sora, Riku, Kairi, Organization XIII, Namine, & Xion. I may be missing a few, but FFVII could easily top that, because they are ALL original characters, since it's not a crossover game.

more fun mini games, more mini-games,

You said basically the same thing twice. And this is really an opinion thing, but I almost never do the mini games. Smacking a ball in the air repeatedly? Lame. Submarine battles, chocobo racing, & the like? Not lame. I actually play FF7 for an hour or 2 just to hit the Gold Saucer sometimes.

more characters

How much Final Fantasy have you played?

a better battle system

Ehh...maybe. There are some advantages & disadvantages to being an action RP.

no drama like FFVII (Why does everybody die?).

Umm...because it's good storytelling? You can only take Xemnas, Marluxia, etc. so seriously as villains because they can't actually TOUCH you, because of the game's E rating. Think about how much more serious the situation would be if they could.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Hmm...I could go with that. But in a way, he's also more boring. It's kind of a Mary Sue thing when nothing ever gets a character down for very long.

Matter of Opinion I guess.

Actually, this is easily disputed. Removing all of the Disney & Final Fantasy characters which, obviously, are not original, who do we have? Not including BBS; Sora, Riku, Kairi, Organization XIII, Namine, & Xion. I may be missing a few, but FFVII could easily top that, because they are ALL original characters, since it's not a crossover game.

I meant Quality not Quantity, FFVII rehashes every kind of character there is from: Movies, FF's, other games etc.

You said basically the same thing twice. And this is really an opinion thing, but I almost never do the mini games. Smacking a ball in the air repeatedly? Lame. Submarine battles, chocobo racing, & the like? Not lame. I actually play FF7 for an hour or 2 just to hit the Gold Saucer sometimes.

Yes...that was a joke

FFVII: Submarine Game, Fort Condor, Roller Coaster, Wrestling, Snowboarding, Chocobo Races, Moogle Game, Motor Game...am I missing any?

KH:
Twilight Town: Struggle, Mail Delivery, Cargo Climb. Grandstander, Poster Duty, Bumble Buster, Junk Sweep, Skateboarding
Agrabah: Chasm of Challenges, Magic Carpet, Skateboarding
100 Acre Wood: Honey Pot, The Expotition, Balloon Bounce, Veggie Panic, Tigger's Jump-a-Thon, Bumble-Rumble, Whirlwind Plunge, A Blustery Rescue, Balloon Glider, Pooh's Muddy Path, Tigger's Giant Pot, Pooh's Swing, Block Tigger, Pooh's Hunny Hunt, Hunny Slider
Underworld/Olympus: Tournament Cups.
Christmas Town: Toy Shooter

I could go on.

How much Final Fantasy have you played?

All of them.

Ehh...maybe. There are some advantages & disadvantages to being an action RP.

Sorry its original for once.

 

[Neo Bahamut]

I meant Quality not Quantity, FFVII rehashes every kind of character there is from: Movies, FF's, other games etc.

That goes for pretty much anything.

Sora: Light-hearted hero.
Riku: Conflicted anti-hero.
Kairi: Pure-hearted female lead.

And the Organization has been criticized as being full of anime archetypes, although Your Mileage May Vary.

FFVII: Submarine Game, Fort Condor, Roller Coaster, Wrestling, Snowboarding, Chocobo Races, Moogle Game, Motor Game...am I missing any?

A few, but you've got the major ones, sans CC. And yes, KH has a LOT of minigames, but they're not always as well-constructed. See again: Smacking something into the air repeatedly. That's not to say that FFVII & CC don't have games like that too, but some of the mini games in FFVII actually form an almost separate game. Case in point: Chocobo racing.

Sorry its original for once.

There were probably action RPs before Kingdom Hearts. And all I'm saying is that ATB is better in some ways while action is better in others.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Sora: Light-hearted hero.
Riku: Conflicted anti-hero.
Kairi: Pure-hearted female lead.

Read the KH manga then you'll see that Lighthearted-ness isn't all there is to Sora's character, He has his Anti-Hero not happy-go lucky side also, which is why I say He is Most Original.

Riku: Was a somewhat selfish good guy not a conflicted hero, he was manipulated and like most Characters in his position who are assholes who say "Loser" or "Fool" every other minute Riku was not.

Kairi: Pure-Hearted Female leads usually sit back and get protected not jump into a fight and fight, and yet still be feminine.

A few, but you've got the major ones, sans CC. And yes, KH has a LOT of minigames, but they're not always as well-constructed. See again: Smacking something into the air repeatedly. That's not to say that FFVII & CC don't have games like that too, but some of the mini games in FFVII actually form an almost separate game. Case in point: Chocobo racing.

Matter of Opinion, duderino.

 

[Ultima Snake]

final fantasy 7 for me

Mod edit: Could you add a little more to your post, please? Maybe explain why you prefer one over the other. :3

 

[Neo Bahamut]

Read the KH manga then you'll see that Lighthearted-ness isn't all there is to Sora's character, He has his Anti-Hero not happy-go lucky side also, which is why I say He is Most Original.

Implying that the mangas count.

Riku: Was a somewhat selfish good guy not a conflicted hero, he was manipulated and like most Characters in his position who are assholes who say "Loser" or "Fool" every other minute Riku was not.

I'd say his confrontation with his actions in Castle Oblivion & his "helping from the shadows because I don't want them to see me like this" shtick in KH2 counts as being conflicted. It even runs right up to the end of that game. "I had given into the Darkness. How am I gonna face everyone?"

As for being an Anti-Hero, that concerns his decision to use "the power of DARKNESS!" to save the Worlds.

Kairi: Pure-Hearted Female leads usually sit back and get protected not jump into a fight and fight, and yet still be feminine.

That's pretty much what Kairi does. As of yet. She may be moving into an action girl archetype, but 1 minor scene does not shift a character's entire archetype. Also, as you said, "usually" it works out that way.